Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:45 AM - Barcelona translation (James E. Lanier)
2. 05:26 AM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) (ashontz)
3. 06:36 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) (Juan Vega)
4. 06:45 AM - Re: Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification (Juan Vega)
5. 06:49 AM - Re: Barcelona translation (Gig Giacona)
6. 08:35 AM - Re: CH601XL Pitot Location (A.F.Rupp@att.net)
7. 09:22 AM - Re: CH601XL Pitot Location (Gig Giacona)
8. 09:32 AM - Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed (jreekree)
9. 09:38 AM - Re: CH601XL Pitot Location (lgingell)
10. 09:50 AM - NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? (Andrewlieser)
11. 09:57 AM - Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? (Tim Juhl)
12. 09:59 AM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) (PatrickW)
13. 10:20 AM - Re: CH601XL Pitot Location (Tim Juhl)
14. 10:25 AM - Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? (Keith Ashcraft)
15. 10:28 AM - Re: Fix for canopies which tilt too far forward (Tim Juhl)
16. 10:35 AM - Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? (ihab.awad@gmail.com)
17. 10:37 AM - Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? (Andrewlieser)
18. 10:57 AM - Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? (Andrewlieser)
19. 11:04 AM - Re: Re: Fix for canopies which tilt too far forward (Craig Payne)
20. 11:17 AM - Re: Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification (japhillipsga@aol.com)
21. 11:34 AM - Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification (japhillipsga@aol.com)
22. 11:41 AM - Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? (Keith Ashcraft)
23. 11:54 AM - Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification (japhillipsga@aol.com)
24. 12:01 PM - Re: Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification (japhillipsga@aol.com)
25. 12:17 PM - Re: CH601XL Pitot Location (Dave Nixon)
26. 12:54 PM - Re: 601XL Parts for sale... (The Keeners)
27. 03:25 PM - HD question addendum (Bill Naumuk)
28. 04:29 PM - Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? (rbjjr)
29. 05:10 PM - Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? (JohnDRead@aol.com)
30. 05:19 PM - Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? (Tim Juhl)
31. 05:28 PM - Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? (Andrewlieser)
32. 05:51 PM - Re: CH601XL Pitot Location (A.F.Rupp@ATT.NET)
33. 06:06 PM - Parting Out 601XL (LYNN WELSCH)
34. 07:03 PM - Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification (Jerry Shepard)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Barcelona translation |
I have a Columbian friend that I asked to translate the Barcelona crash
text for me. He said that their syntax is a little different, but was
able to come up with the following:
The airplane was making a local flight of 30 minutes when it was
returning to its base, and five minutes before landing, the airplane
according to
witnesses initiated a descent down a small hill according
to what they were able to observed at different angles. The wings of the
plane
bent in flight.
One was able to observe the right wing bending crushing the cabin,
producing a loud sound, and finally ended up on top of the
left wing, the frame didn't break or separate from it only
bend.
Another witness was about 600meters and in its path
he noticed a plane at very low altitude, he observe to see what it was doing
or where it was going, with great surprised, he noticed that the wings
were bent, pieces of the cabin
were flying through the air (after it was confirmed that there were
pieces of the plane spread around the streets within a 300meter radius
before impact
pieces of lexan mostly of small dimensions, the plane was making an
acrobat in the air and disappeared behind a small hill according
to the witness.
A second person and at a closer zone, in the same area at
300meters before impact, heard a loud noise, that made him turn around
to look at the plane. He saw a plane with a bent wing and making a very
loud noise and the wing was moving,
he also talks about the final acrobat in the air before crashing,
against the dirt very vertically the motor was still
running with many revolutions, the motor separated at quite a few meters
because of
strong impact.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) |
I've been doing some research on this, apparently mass balance is a good thing,
althought done wrong could actually cause flutter too. Do you have any more info
on how to do it right? I'm seeing some things like the balance isn't actually
outright balanced per se, but only a certain percentage of balance is called
for. Would something like this need to be done in a wind tunnel to get it
right?
do not archive
[quote="planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co"]Gentlemen;
Aileron balance cables do not provide mas or aerodynamic balance - they simply
complete the mechanical actuation circuit - hence balance.
Aerodynamic balance involves active aerodynamic surfaces of the control surface
that are place ahead of the effective hinge line.
Mass balance refers to mass added forward of the effective hinge line to result
in a painted, ready to fly, surface static balance (pivoting on the actual hinge)
with the leading edge about 10? down.
Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote:[quote] Andy,
I am considering adding mass to my ailerons just as you would with a nose wheel
that shimmies. If you add some weight to the trailing edge of the ailerons
it would make flutter at the speeds we fly almost impossible. In the Van's RV
you add mass in the form of a steel pipe inside the ailerons. In the case of
a nose wheel you can add lead inside the wheel pant and the shear mass of the
weight make it harder to shimmy. One thing to note it has been the right wing
that folds first and that is the light aileron so while it doesn't call for
it in the plans I am seriously considering doing it. You can't counter balance
the ailerons on a 601 because you have nowhere for the counter weight to
go.
Gus, I've been thinking about aileron balance. How exactly do you balance one
to know that it will not encounter certain frequencies. Is there are procedure
for this.
I'm guessing the XLs ailerons are meant to balance each other via the control
cables? What if the cables get a slight bitof slack in them?
Also, I'll have a trim tab and servo in my XL in one of the ailerons. Even though
the plans don't mention balancing them (that I'm aware of yet) it would probably
be a good idea to balance them. That being the case I'm guessing a mod
to the outer portion of the aileron and rear spar to allow for a balance weight
is in order. Even so, that will only get me static balance, how about dynamic
balance?
Gus(at)flywithgus.com wrote:
> Just an FYI. It doesn't have to be high airspeed. Many old timers may
> remember the Ritz Standard Ultralight. Herb Ritz met the end because of
> flutter. NTSB Ritz Flutter
> For
> example my "slow" Cessna 120 has mass balanced ailerons. Factors could
> be amount (weight) of paint, freedom of movement (flex hinge vs. piano),
> additional weight behind hinge line (trim servo), and changing the
> aerodynamic qualities of the surface (trim tab deflection). Not any one
> of these factors necessarily would make a surface flutter but it may be
> a combination of all. Every surface, even a balanced one, has a natural
> frequency which it will flutter. The surface just must be balanced in a
> way that it's frequency will never be encountered within the flight
> envelope.
>
> -Gus
>
>
Dave Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA
100 HP Corvair
Be a better friend, newshound, and
> [b]
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180654#180654
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) |
All,
Though I think this entire stream is pure speculation and monday moring quarterbacking,
FLutter and airleron balance has been covered in previous articles in
the Zenith quarterly Magazine. There are plans and schematics to place balance
rods on ailerons. Stick to the plans! If yu tension the cable correctly there
should be no issue with flutter.
The stream where the guy wanted to "alance the ailerons due to a servo in the left
is simply, way off the mark. BUild it to plans, tension the cables to plans,
Fly it "within its parameters".
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: ashontz <ashontz@nbme.org>
>Sent: May 2, 2008 8:22 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter)
>
>
>I've been doing some research on this, apparently mass balance is a good thing,
althought done wrong could actually cause flutter too. Do you have any more
info on how to do it right? I'm seeing some things like the balance isn't actually
outright balanced per se, but only a certain percentage of balance is called
for. Would something like this need to be done in a wind tunnel to get it
right?
>
>do not archive
>
>[quote="planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co"]Gentlemen;
>
>Aileron balance cables do not provide mas or aerodynamic balance - they simply
complete the mechanical actuation circuit - hence balance.
>
>Aerodynamic balance involves active aerodynamic surfaces of the control surface
that are place ahead of the effective hinge line.
>
>Mass balance refers to mass added forward of the effective hinge line to result
in a painted, ready to fly, surface static balance (pivoting on the actual hinge)
with the leading edge about 10? down.
>
>Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote:[quote] Andy,
> I am considering adding mass to my ailerons just as you would with a nose wheel
that shimmies. If you add some weight to the trailing edge of the ailerons
it would make flutter at the speeds we fly almost impossible. In the Van's RV
you add mass in the form of a steel pipe inside the ailerons. In the case of
a nose wheel you can add lead inside the wheel pant and the shear mass of the
weight make it harder to shimmy. One thing to note it has been the right
wing that folds first and that is the light aileron so while it doesn't call for
it in the plans I am seriously considering doing it. You can't counter balance
the ailerons on a 601 because you have nowhere for the counter weight to
go.
>
>
> Gus, I've been thinking about aileron balance. How exactly do you balance one
to know that it will not encounter certain frequencies. Is there are procedure
for this.
>
>I'm guessing the XLs ailerons are meant to balance each other via the control
cables? What if the cables get a slight bitof slack in them?
>
>Also, I'll have a trim tab and servo in my XL in one of the ailerons. Even though
the plans don't mention balancing them (that I'm aware of yet) it would
probably be a good idea to balance them. That being the case I'm guessing a mod
to the outer portion of the aileron and rear spar to allow for a balance weight
is in order. Even so, that will only get me static balance, how about dynamic
balance?
>
>
>Gus(at)flywithgus.com wrote:
>
>> Just an FYI. It doesn't have to be high airspeed. Many old timers may
>> remember the Ritz Standard Ultralight. Herb Ritz met the end because of
>> flutter. NTSB Ritz Flutter
>> For
>> example my "slow" Cessna 120 has mass balanced ailerons. Factors could
>> be amount (weight) of paint, freedom of movement (flex hinge vs. piano),
>> additional weight behind hinge line (trim servo), and changing the
>> aerodynamic qualities of the surface (trim tab deflection). Not any one
>> of these factors necessarily would make a surface flutter but it may be
>> a combination of all. Every surface, even a balanced one, has a natural
>> frequency which it will flutter. The surface just must be balanced in a
>> way that it's frequency will never be encountered within the flight
>> envelope.
>>
>> -Gus
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>Dave Downey
> Harleysville (SE) PA
> 100 HP Corvair
>
>
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
>> [b]
>
>
>--------
>Andy Shontz
>
>do not archive
>
>CH601XL - Corvair
>www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180654#180654
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification |
I was told the following by an RV 8 pilot " plane did a Snap role above its permited
weight, wings were stressed outboard, then the after a few flights, the
wing snapped."
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: PatrickW <pwhoyt@yahoo.com>
>Sent: May 1, 2008 6:03 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification
>
>
>
>> I just finished attaching the wings to my RV-8a and the difference is considerable.
>
>
>If I'm not mistaken, didn't the RV-8 owned by Mr VanG himself shed it's wings,
taking two of his friends...?
>
>Does anyone know any more about that, and if so, was there any changes made to
the airframe after that?
>
>Patrick
>XL/Corvair
>N63PZ (reserved)
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180570#180570
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Barcelona translation |
Well it is good to know that Spain's version of the NTSB can produce as useless
a document as our NTSB.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180666#180666
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: CH601XL Pitot Location |
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: CH601XL Pitot Location |
A.F.Rupp, Your post comes up blank on the web forum version.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180701#180701
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed |
ggower_99(at)yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
> What I think happened in this case, is that either of them (pilot or passenger)
accidentaly pulled the BRS handle. and the BRS pop out...
>
>
It's irresponsible comments like this that hurt this forum. NOBODY cares what
you think may have happened.
Stick to the facts.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180707#180707
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: CH601XL Pitot Location |
I put a "collar" (piece of plastic tubing about 5mm long) on my static port near
the holes (about 3mm aft I think). This changed the airflow on the static port
and decreased my IAS a few knots. I'm still reading about 5 knots high.
I haven't disconnected the static in flight, but there is quite a bit of pressure
(my shirt gets sucked down at the canopy sides), so I don't think it would
help diagnose much in flight. However on a ground test, it would.
You cannot adjust this on the Dynon. Nor do i think you'd want to.
Dynon changed their minimum IAS registered from about 38 knots down to around 15
in their v3 software. I had used the old and the new. I didn't notice any difference
except the IAS starts to show eariler on the takeoff roll, which is
nice.
I suspect the prop draft over the pitot is quite different on the ground, and may
not reach it in the air. Putting the pitot further outboard wouldn't be bad,
but I'd first consider moving the static port on to the fuselage (and maybe
using one on each side). I even bought the vans static kit planning to do this....)and
then bought an RV7A kit to go with the static kit! - another story!!)
I get about 2650RPM static with my Jabiru 3300. I'm a bit over propped with my
wooden sensenich 51" pitch, but it works nice in cruise, and I can still get to
3250rpm at full throttle (10.5gal/hr!).
Cheers,
..lance
XL/Jab3300/Dynons
--------
Zodiac XL/Jab 3300
http://lancegingell.com/plane.asp
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180712#180712
Message 10
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| Subject: | NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? |
Has anyone used the NAPA 7220 self etching primer on their Zenith? It seems to
be quite popular with th RV guys and would be more accessible for me. Just wondering
if it offers the same corrosion protection......
Andrew Lieser
--------
Andrew Lieser
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180716#180716
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? |
I use SEM self-etching primer but I believe what applies to one, applies to all.
Zinc chromate would be the best for corrosion protection but you can't get it in
rattle cans and it's use is restricted. Self etching primers provide good adhesion
and provide some protection where aluminum pieces are riveted together.
When used on steel it MUST be topcoated.
If you do a search you will find that there has been much discussion on this issue
in the past.
Tim
do not archive
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180719#180719
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) |
amyvega2005(at)earthlink. wrote:
> Stick to the plans!
I wonder if any of the accident aircraft had deviations from the plans...?
It would be nice to know one way or another.
Patrick
XL/Corvair
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180721#180721
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: CH601XL Pitot Location |
On my Cessnas the static port was on the side of the fuselage just behind the cowling...
The alternate static air was drawn from the cockpit.
On my Champ, the static port is located with the pitot like the XL and has a little
collar on it (like a thick washer with a set-screw) set forward of the holes.
You can move it back and forth to fine tune the system - another thing you
might check is to make sure paint or gunk hasn't clogged the holes.
To me, an ASI gives at best a relative indication of speed and I don't worry too
much about the accuracy as long as it is consistent. There are so many factors
the effect true air speed that you can't get too excited about it. My GPS
gives me the best indication of actual progress.
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180728#180728
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? |
I use the NAPA 7220 for my plane. I also read on an RV-site that once he fo
und out about it, he started using and and never looked back!!
Keith
***************************************************************************
*****
Andrewlieser wrote:
mailto:Andrewlieser@gmail.com>
Has anyone used the NAPA 7220 self etching primer on their Zenith? It seem
s to be quite popular with th RV guys and would be more accessible for me.
Just wondering if it offers the same corrosion protection......
Andrew Lieser
--------
Andrew Lieser
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180716#180716
--
*************************************
Keith Ashcraft
ITT Industries
Advanced Engineering & Sciences
5009 Centennial Blvd.
Colorado Springs, CO
80919
(719) 599-1787 -- work
(719) 332-4364 -- cell
keith.ashcraft@itt.com<mailto:keith.ashcraft@itt.com>
keith.ashcraft1@us.army.mil<mailto:keith.ashcraft1@us.army.mil>
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Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Fix for canopies which tilt too far forward |
Looking at 6C2 (7/05) the distance that the mounting bolt on 6C2-2 is 290 mm back
from the mounting bolt on 6B6-4. If I read your comments correctly then the
distance that would prevent the canopy from contacting the cowling would be
303 mm, correct?
BTW - I really appreciate this kind of information. You certainly help smooth
the process out....
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180732#180732
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? |
On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Keith Ashcraft <keith.ashcraft@itt.com>
wrote:
> I use the NAPA 7220 for my plane. I also read on an RV-site that once he
> found out about it, he started using and and never looked back!!
>
Do you buy it at your local NAPA store? Any NAPA store? I tried searching on
their Website but could not find it. Thanks and cheers,
Ihab
--
Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? |
Thanks Tim, I do not live in a VERY corrosive type of environment but it did want
to use some type of primer. I don't like ZINC chromate, nasty stuff, and
my other choice was going with Corrosion X but its not as available as 7220 and
more expensive. Thanks for your response,
Andrew
601XL S/N - 6-7045
Rudder almost complete!
--------
Andrew Lieser
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180736#180736
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| Subject: | Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? |
Ihab my local store has it in but it probably varies. I could not locate it on
the NAPA site either but one call cleared it up! Glad to hear it worked well
for you Kieth!
--------
Andrew Lieser
S/N 6-7045
http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180739#180739
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| Subject: | Re: Fix for canopies which tilt too far forward |
On my plane, yes. But the bigger point is that it is probably different on
each plane. That is why (if possible) that I recommend drilling and bolting
6C2-2 last - after you have built and fitted the whole canopy.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Juhl
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 11:26 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fix for canopies which tilt too far forward
Looking at 6C2 (7/05) the distance that the mounting bolt on 6C2-2 is 290 mm
back from the mounting bolt on 6B6-4. If I read your comments correctly
then the distance that would prevent the canopy from contacting the cowling
would be 303 mm, correct?
BTW - I really appreciate this kind of information. You certainly help
smooth the process out....
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180732#180732
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| Subject: | Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification |
Tim, on the RV wing, at least on the 8 & 9 that I have worked on and built, the
forward end of the nose skin has a .125 "L" bracket riveted to the wing rib (wet
tanks). Then a corsponding "L" bracket is bolted to the side of the fuselage.
There is considerable doubler metal in the surrounding area providing great
strength to the fuselage bracket. These two brackets are overlapped and a 5/8
bolt connects. Talking with other builders I have heard that the forward attachment
complements the drag spar attachment in combating wing twist and that
when the fuel tanks are full they illeminate wing droop?and?metal stretch from
occurring. On the XL some doublers would have to be added and some nose skin
would have to be removed for attachment (or maybe a plug hole?, but such modification
would not be too difficult. Best Regards, Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Juhl <juhl@avci.net>
Sent: Thu, 1 May 2008 4:35 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification
I've often wondered about the strength of the rear spar attachment. With all
the people stepping back there to board the plane it has to support more than
just flight loads. It is critical to maintaining the XL's wing geometry even if
the main spar carries the bulk of the load. That said, I would be reluctant to
make a major modification to the design without ZAC's blessing.
May I ask what you meant in your post where you said: "forward attachment point
at the wing tip"
Tim
do not archive
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180553#180553
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| Subject: | Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification |
Paul, I for one appreciate your enlightened response. As I have completed my XL
some years back it is really no longer a project, but rather an airplane I fly
regularly and depend upon not to kill me and my Grandchildren. I retain only
a margin of trust in any object I own and always consider that it (or anything)
may have design and material flaws or errors. It would be less than prudent
to blindly trust anyone's opinion other than yourself. Never the less, opinion
of even?the least informed may be of some merit and I hope anyone with an idea
will respond. Again, thank you for taking the time to offer your sensitive
opinion?on the subject and I certainly don't believe your?making fun of me. Best
regards, Bill
do not archive.?
-----Original Message-----
From: Cndmovn <cndmovn@gmail.com>
Sent: Thu, 1 May 2008 8:12 pm
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Wing Attachment Modification
"I am working on an airbus 380 and I looked at the zenith spar attachment".....it
is like comparing apples to oranges!? One designer might have added thickness
to a structure while another added physical attachments.?? This list had degenerated
into a bunch of people raising issues and fears that can never be answered.?
You might as well ask...If I put an underweight elephant in the right
seat of the airplane, would adding another AN4 bold make it safe?
There are few if no qualified people on this list to answer this question.? There
are a LOT of people on this list who will give you an answer who have NO idea
what they are talking about.
Bottom line....if you don't like the design or trust the designer, sell the project
and move onto something else.?
BTW, before I get cat call for being insensitive, I AM NOT making fun of you.....just
the rest of the so call engineers on this list who while give you "solutions"
Paul
On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 6:15 PM, M.Marcotte <m.l.marcotte@sympatico.ca> wrote:
I would look?for sources of flutter?before tampering with the basic structure.?
I mean like this one from Joe about the trim tab:
"Use bolts to attach the horn, not rivets.
The fasteners are loaded in tension.
Mine became loose in fewer than 100 hours.
Joe E
N633Z (at) BFI
332 hours
CH601XL, Jabiru 3300, Sensenich 64x49
On Sun, 7 May 2006"
?
?
Doesn't this look like a smoking gun?
?
----- Original Message -----
From: japhillipsga@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 2:58 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: XL Wing Attachment Modification
XL Friends, Flyers and Builders, I'm considering modifying the wing attachments
for my XL. I just finished attaching the wings to my RV-8a and the difference
is considerable. Beefed up rear spar
attachment clamp and a forward attachment point at the wing tip. Any of you fellows
that know RVs
understand the difference in attachment physically. Sure would reduce the wing
twising concern
that may have contributed to various crashes. Anybody have any constructive, pro-active
thoughts
on the issue?
Best regards, Bill of Georgia
601XL-3300 130 hrs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180530#180530
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Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? |
Hi Ihab,
Yes sir, I go to the local NAPA store and buy the rattle cans. Anywhere bet
ween $4-$6 a can. It is pretty much equivalent to GPB 988, but 1/2 the cost
.
Keith
CH701 -- scratch
N 38.9947
W 105.1305
Alt. 9,100' (snowed yesterday)
***************************************************************
ihab.awad@gmail.com<mailto:ihab.awad@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Keith Ashcraft <keith.ashcraft@itt.com<mai
lto:keith.ashcraft@itt.com>> wrote:
I use the NAPA 7220 for my plane. I also read on an RV-site that once he fo
und out about it, he started using and and never looked back!!
Do you buy it at your local NAPA store? Any NAPA store? I tried searching o
n their Website but could not find it. Thanks and cheers,
Ihab
--
Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA
--
*************************************
Keith Ashcraft
ITT Industries
Advanced Engineering & Sciences
5009 Centennial Blvd.
Colorado Springs, CO
80919
(719) 599-1787 -- work
(719) 332-4364 -- cell
keith.ashcraft@itt.com<mailto:keith.ashcraft@itt.com>
keith.ashcraft1@us.army.mil<mailto:keith.ashcraft1@us.army.mil>
________________________________
This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may be proprietary and are in
tended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addr
essed. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender.
Please note that any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely
those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT Corporati
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s transmitted by this e-mail.
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification |
Frank, I certainly agree with you and I appreciate your opinion. I will either
make such mods or I will not. Never the less, I decided to seek opinions from
us builders about possible merit before bouncing the issue with ZAC. I suspect
they are pretty sensitive to the issue and concerns by now. Something had to
come first. Best regards, Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Roskind <frankroskind@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sent: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:58 pm
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: XL Wing Attachment Modification
We don't know the causes of the accidents, nor may we ever know.? We know that
one symptom of the failure was a failure of the wing spar, but we do not understand
the causative mechanism.? I have read thousands of accident reports from
many modes of transportation, and the only thing I would say is consistent is
the fog that remains after a good investigation.? We know that some failures
were part of the causal chain of some accidents, and that the accidents would
likely not have happened had the failure not happened, or if there had been coverage
for the failure, but in the end there is a lot of educated, in some cases
very highly educated, speculation.? I am not an engineer, but I do have duties
which require me to find common factors in accidents.? In this case the apparent
common factor is the wing failure.? We know almost nothing about the serviced
history previous to the flights.? It is very possible that a crack initiated
days, weeks, months, or even years before the a
ccidents.? The accidents may have involved a unique alignment of circumstances
that has not occurred, and probably will not occur,?to potential analysts.? It
may be that crosswind landings on turf fields in cold weather during the dark
of the moon affects holes reamed and then polished with the wrong color of scotchbrite
pad, but only in aircraft flown by left-handed, right-eyed pilots flying
from the left seat.? Aside from the phase of the moon, it is possible that
any of these factors might have influenced the likelihood of a wing failure,
and there are thousands of other, similarly inoccuous sounding conditions that
might actuallly have had an effect.? OTOH, strenghteneing an attachment point
without engineering support increases the likelihood that you will transfer
forces to a different point on the airplane, which is not designed to handle
the additional load.? Mr. Heintz is generous enough to lend engineering support
to builders who ask for it, so I believe that you a
r
e foolhardy if you are not a qualifed engineer, and also decline to run your proposed
changes by?the designer.
Subject: Zenith-List: XL Wing Attachment Modification
From: japhillipsga@aol.com
XL Friends, Flyers and Builders, I'm considering modifying the wing attachments
for my XL. I just finished attaching the wings to my RV-8a and the difference
is considerable. Beefed up rear spar
attachment clamp and a forward attachment point at the wing tip. Any of you fellows
that know RVs
understand the difference in attachment physically. Sure would reduce the wing
twising concern
that may have contributed to various crashes. Anybody have any constructive, pro-active
thoughts
on the issue?
Best regards, Bill of Georgia
601XL-3300 130 hrs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180530#180530
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Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification |
Jeff, I think you may have over looked the fact that the RV wing does attach at
the rear spar as well. I drilled and reamed and bolted mine last month. The RV
rear spear attachment is bolted for shear, but also has three layers of metal
lapping that actually are clamped together by the bolt. Look again, Best regards,
Bill
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Fri, 2 May 2008 12:56 am
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification
The wing of the Van's RV attaches to the leading edge?fuel tank inboard rib not
the rear spar like the 601. The fuel tank is removable and when you remove it
you also?unbolt?the attach point for the wing. But the spar is deeper in the
wing also.
?
Jeff
May I ask what you meant in your post where you said: "forward attachment point
at the wing tip"
?
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| Subject: | Re: CH601XL Pitot Location |
Thanks for all of the help on the Pitot system. After contemplating the Dynon D180
and my mechanical 2 1/8" UMA ASI systems ( UMA is backup) (both are doing
the same thing, indicating high) and looking it all over real good, I decided
to move it. When I called the factory and talked with Caleb, he said No Problem.
So I moved it outbaord of the #7 rib but the hole through the skin is about
40mm from the wing spar rivet line instead of the 150mm per plans. Caleb was
surprised when I told him that the plans called for 150mm. During the pitot
examination, I found that the leading edges of the tubes were slightly sandblasted
and starting to rust. I presume that this is from the prop wash. My vent
tube, next rib out, has no signs of sandblasting.
After finishing the move I tested the system and all seemed to work fine during
ground runup. Unfortunately, unless you are doing a racetrack route, GPs is
not much good because that gives you ground speed. The FAA wants you to record
accurate VSO, VX and VY. Can't do that without a reasonably accurate IAS system.
So its off to breakfast tomorrow with three other planes and I will see
then how much improved the IAS is. They are the ones who tipped me off in the
first place last Saturday. I will keep you all posted on what I find.
Dave Nixon (18 Hrs down, 22 Hrs to go)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180767#180767
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL Parts for sale... |
I'd be lying if I said the accidents weren't weighing on me...
However, it's more financial than anything. I work for the govt. and my
pay was capped/cut in Sept. '06. With my pay continuing to go down
over the next three years and with the rise in gas and everything else
it's just not feasible.
I do want to sell all at once if I can... (rudder/tail and wing kit)
Thanks for the inquiry.
Forest K.
Message 27
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| Subject: | HD question addendum |
All-
I've received a number of e-mails from other listers stating that
the return address for the poster of this question was in evidence in
their e-mails. For whatever reason, the e-mail I responded to didn't
have it. That is unless, I'm supposed to click on "Dick" to address my
response. If so, I guess I'm ignorant, and I can live with that.
Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, stupidity relates to most of the
mistakes I've made on my project and is a different thing. Original
e-mail attached. Matt, do you have any input?
In any event, Dick wasn't the first to ask the question. It was the
same one I asked WW before committing to the 'Vair, and the answer is
straight from WW.
Bill Naumuk
Townville, Pa.
HDS Fuse/Corvair
Dick-
I'd be glad to respond to you off list, but there's no e-mail link
for you.
HD, HDS, and XL all use the same components and attachment
locations. Differences are restricted to the fuel system in the XL.
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick
To: Zenith-List@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 9:07 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: 601HD question
Has anyone purchased the nosebowl, baffling and hinged cowling from W.
Wynne for a 601HD?
Am trying to determine for a friend whether any modification is
necessary between the baffling and hinged cowling for a XL versus HD...
My friend is awaiting a previously ordered engine mount.
Thanks, Dick
please feel free to contact me off-list
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? |
Just FYI...
Zinc Chromate is readily available in rattle cans and is easy to get. Tempo has
a Marine Zinc Chromate primer that according to their site is self etching.
I have tried it on well cleaned and acid etched 6061 and it adheres very well.
I can get it at my local hardware store, West Marine and Boat US. I plan to
use it plus Corrosion X.
Burke Johnson
CH701
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180801#180801
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| Subject: | Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? |
It works great I use it all the time on the 701 I am building. do not
archive.
John Read
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 5/2/2008 10:50:53 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
Andrewlieser@gmail.com writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Andrewlieser" <Andrewlieser@gmail.com>
Has anyone used the NAPA 7220 self etching primer on their Zenith? It seems
to be quite popular with th RV guys and would be more accessible for me.
Just wondering if it offers the same corrosion protection......
Andrew Lieser
--------
Andrew Lieser
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180716#180716
**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
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Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? |
I stand corrected. Checking West Marine I found this: MOELLER Zinc Chromate Primers
From $15.99 USD - I also see that aircraft spruce is now carrying cans
made by PTI. You do pay a premium for shipping, however.
That said, Zinc Chromate is still nasty stuff. I used to teach chemistry and at
one point the state made us turn over all bottles of Chromate compounds to a
toxic waste disposal company. There are a lot of things I used to handle and
inhale without protection that have since been found to be very hazardous. Good
corrosion protection but use it with care.
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180810#180810
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? |
Thanks to everyone who replied! I should get some time to do the priming this
weekend and hopefully riveting! I will post some pictures on my webpage of the
7220 priming for all who may in the future be curious.
--------
Andrew Lieser
S/N 6-7045
http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180812#180812
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| Subject: | Re: CH601XL Pitot Location |
Message 33
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| Subject: | Parting Out 601XL |
I am disassembling my 2004 XL. I bought it from the builder who
constructed it at an assistance facility (CZAW) in the Czech Republic.
I have flown 335 of the 382 hours on the aircraft and engine. It was
last flown on April 19. The most recent condition inspection was done
in March 08. Lockwood Aviation serviced the engine in December 07.
There is no visible or otherwise known damage. I will sell the firewall
forward, the canopy assembly and any non-structural components. The fwf
is a "Skyshop" clone (912ULS with vacuum pump, prop extension, hd
starter, air box, slipper clutch, Woodcomp composite prop and spinner
and composite upper and lower cowlings).The canopy is lightly tinted,
has a Koger sunshade and has no cracks. I can be reached at
prwelsch@hughes.net.
Philip Welsch
Mimbres, NM
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification |
I'm with you Frank, probably the wrong color of scotchbrite. That
being said, I for one will add some of the 11# saved by using the Grove
Landing gear instead of the ZAC one to the wing attachment area, both
wing and center spar. This is an experimental aircraft!!! If this
causes something else to become the weakest link, so be it, My mods will
most likeky be about 3-4 Sq feet of 1/4" 6061 T6 placed between the spar
caps, 50 solid rivets and 12 more bolts. About 6#. I will leave the
current attachment points as they are. I probably will run it by ZAC,
however, my past experience has been less than exciting in doing so. I
guess everyone needs to seek their own level of experimental security.
My 701 definately is Experimental with about 100+# too much firewall
forward, 30 ft wingspan and VG's.
Everyone who wonders how Chris handles similar things should go to the
701 site and look at the rear spar attachment channel modification.
----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Roskind
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 7:58 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: XL Wing Attachment Modification
We don't know the causes of the accidents, nor may we ever know. We
know that one symptom of the failure was a failure of the wing spar, but
we do not understand the causative mechanism. I have read thousands of
accident reports from many modes of transportation, and the only thing I
would say is consistent is the fog that remains after a good
investigation. We know that some failures were part of the causal chain
of some accidents, and that the accidents would likely not have happened
had the failure not happened, or if there had been coverage for the
failure, but in the end there is a lot of educated, in some cases very
highly educated, speculation. I am not an engineer, but I do have
duties which require me to find common factors in accidents. In this
case the apparent common factor is the wing failure. We know almost
nothing about the serviced history previous to the flights. It is very
possible that a crack initiated days, weeks, months, or even years
before the accidents. The accidents may have involved a unique
alignment of circumstances that has not occurred, and probably will not
occur, to potential analysts. It may be that crosswind landings on turf
fields in cold weather during the dark of the moon affects holes reamed
and then polished with the wrong color of scotchbrite pad, but only in
aircraft flown by left-handed, right-eyed pilots flying from the left
seat. Aside from the phase of the moon, it is possible that any of
these factors might have influenced the likelihood of a wing failure,
and there are thousands of other, similarly inoccuous sounding
conditions that might actuallly have had an effect. OTOH,
strenghteneing an attachment point without engineering support increases
the likelihood that you will transfer forces to a different point on the
airplane, which is not designed to handle the additional load. Mr.
Heintz is generous enough to lend engineering support to builders who
ask for it, so I believe that you are foolhardy if you are not a
qualifed engineer, and also decline to run your proposed changes by the
designer.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Zenith-List: XL Wing Attachment Modification
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 15:58:54 -0400
From: japhillipsga@aol.com
XL Friends, Flyers and Builders, I'm considering modifying the wing
attachments for my XL. I just finished attaching the wings to my RV-8a
and the difference is considerable. Beefed up rear spar
attachment clamp and a forward attachment point at the wing tip. Any of
you fellows that know RVs
understand the difference in attachment physically. Sure would reduce
the wing twising concern
that may have contributed to various crashes. Anybody have any
constructive, pro-active thoughts
on the issue?
Best regards, Bill of Georgia
601XL-3300 130 hrs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180530#180530
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