---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/02/08: 34 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:45 AM - Barcelona translation (James E. Lanier) 2. 05:26 AM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) (ashontz) 3. 06:36 AM - Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) (Juan Vega) 4. 06:45 AM - Re: Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification (Juan Vega) 5. 06:49 AM - Re: Barcelona translation (Gig Giacona) 6. 08:35 AM - Re: CH601XL Pitot Location (A.F.Rupp@att.net) 7. 09:22 AM - Re: CH601XL Pitot Location (Gig Giacona) 8. 09:32 AM - Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed (jreekree) 9. 09:38 AM - Re: CH601XL Pitot Location (lgingell) 10. 09:50 AM - NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? (Andrewlieser) 11. 09:57 AM - Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? (Tim Juhl) 12. 09:59 AM - Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) (PatrickW) 13. 10:20 AM - Re: CH601XL Pitot Location (Tim Juhl) 14. 10:25 AM - Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? (Keith Ashcraft) 15. 10:28 AM - Re: Fix for canopies which tilt too far forward (Tim Juhl) 16. 10:35 AM - Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? (ihab.awad@gmail.com) 17. 10:37 AM - Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? (Andrewlieser) 18. 10:57 AM - Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? (Andrewlieser) 19. 11:04 AM - Re: Re: Fix for canopies which tilt too far forward (Craig Payne) 20. 11:17 AM - Re: Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification (japhillipsga@aol.com) 21. 11:34 AM - Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification (japhillipsga@aol.com) 22. 11:41 AM - Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? (Keith Ashcraft) 23. 11:54 AM - Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification (japhillipsga@aol.com) 24. 12:01 PM - Re: Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification (japhillipsga@aol.com) 25. 12:17 PM - Re: CH601XL Pitot Location (Dave Nixon) 26. 12:54 PM - Re: 601XL Parts for sale... (The Keeners) 27. 03:25 PM - HD question addendum (Bill Naumuk) 28. 04:29 PM - Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? (rbjjr) 29. 05:10 PM - Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? (JohnDRead@aol.com) 30. 05:19 PM - Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? (Tim Juhl) 31. 05:28 PM - Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? (Andrewlieser) 32. 05:51 PM - Re: CH601XL Pitot Location (A.F.Rupp@ATT.NET) 33. 06:06 PM - Parting Out 601XL (LYNN WELSCH) 34. 07:03 PM - Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification (Jerry Shepard) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:45:34 AM PST US From: "James E. Lanier" Subject: Zenith-List: Barcelona translation I have a Columbian friend that I asked to translate the Barcelona crash text for me. He said that their syntax is a little different, but was able to come up with the following: The airplane was making a local flight of 30 minutes when it was returning to its base, and five minutes before landing, the airplane according to witnesses initiated a descent down a small hill according to what they were able to observed at different angles. The wings of the plane bent in flight. One was able to observe the right wing bending crushing the cabin, producing a loud sound, and finally ended up on top of the left wing, the frame didn't break or separate from it only bend. Another witness was about 600meters and in its path he noticed a plane at very low altitude, he observe to see what it was doing or where it was going, with great surprised, he noticed that the wings were bent, pieces of the cabin were flying through the air (after it was confirmed that there were pieces of the plane spread around the streets within a 300meter radius before impact pieces of lexan mostly of small dimensions, the plane was making an acrobat in the air and disappeared behind a small hill according to the witness. A second person and at a closer zone, in the same area at 300meters before impact, heard a loud noise, that made him turn around to look at the plane. He saw a plane with a bent wing and making a very loud noise and the wing was moving, he also talks about the final acrobat in the air before crashing, against the dirt very vertically the motor was still running with many revolutions, the motor separated at quite a few meters because of strong impact. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:26:20 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) From: "ashontz" I've been doing some research on this, apparently mass balance is a good thing, althought done wrong could actually cause flutter too. Do you have any more info on how to do it right? I'm seeing some things like the balance isn't actually outright balanced per se, but only a certain percentage of balance is called for. Would something like this need to be done in a wind tunnel to get it right? do not archive [quote="planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co"]Gentlemen; Aileron balance cables do not provide mas or aerodynamic balance - they simply complete the mechanical actuation circuit - hence balance. Aerodynamic balance involves active aerodynamic surfaces of the control surface that are place ahead of the effective hinge line. Mass balance refers to mass added forward of the effective hinge line to result in a painted, ready to fly, surface static balance (pivoting on the actual hinge) with the leading edge about 10? down. Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote:[quote] Andy, I am considering adding mass to my ailerons just as you would with a nose wheel that shimmies. If you add some weight to the trailing edge of the ailerons it would make flutter at the speeds we fly almost impossible. In the Van's RV you add mass in the form of a steel pipe inside the ailerons. In the case of a nose wheel you can add lead inside the wheel pant and the shear mass of the weight make it harder to shimmy. One thing to note it has been the right wing that folds first and that is the light aileron so while it doesn't call for it in the plans I am seriously considering doing it. You can't counter balance the ailerons on a 601 because you have nowhere for the counter weight to go. Gus, I've been thinking about aileron balance. How exactly do you balance one to know that it will not encounter certain frequencies. Is there are procedure for this. I'm guessing the XLs ailerons are meant to balance each other via the control cables? What if the cables get a slight bitof slack in them? Also, I'll have a trim tab and servo in my XL in one of the ailerons. Even though the plans don't mention balancing them (that I'm aware of yet) it would probably be a good idea to balance them. That being the case I'm guessing a mod to the outer portion of the aileron and rear spar to allow for a balance weight is in order. Even so, that will only get me static balance, how about dynamic balance? Gus(at)flywithgus.com wrote: > Just an FYI. It doesn't have to be high airspeed. Many old timers may > remember the Ritz Standard Ultralight. Herb Ritz met the end because of > flutter. NTSB Ritz Flutter > For > example my "slow" Cessna 120 has mass balanced ailerons. Factors could > be amount (weight) of paint, freedom of movement (flex hinge vs. piano), > additional weight behind hinge line (trim servo), and changing the > aerodynamic qualities of the surface (trim tab deflection). Not any one > of these factors necessarily would make a surface flutter but it may be > a combination of all. Every surface, even a balanced one, has a natural > frequency which it will flutter. The surface just must be balanced in a > way that it's frequency will never be encountered within the flight > envelope. > > -Gus > > Dave Downey Harleysville (SE) PA 100 HP Corvair Be a better friend, newshound, and > [b] -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180654#180654 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:06 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) All, Though I think this entire stream is pure speculation and monday moring quarterbacking, FLutter and airleron balance has been covered in previous articles in the Zenith quarterly Magazine. There are plans and schematics to place balance rods on ailerons. Stick to the plans! If yu tension the cable correctly there should be no issue with flutter. The stream where the guy wanted to "alance the ailerons due to a servo in the left is simply, way off the mark. BUild it to plans, tension the cables to plans, Fly it "within its parameters". Juan -----Original Message----- >From: ashontz >Sent: May 2, 2008 8:22 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) > > >I've been doing some research on this, apparently mass balance is a good thing, althought done wrong could actually cause flutter too. Do you have any more info on how to do it right? I'm seeing some things like the balance isn't actually outright balanced per se, but only a certain percentage of balance is called for. Would something like this need to be done in a wind tunnel to get it right? > >do not archive > >[quote="planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co"]Gentlemen; > >Aileron balance cables do not provide mas or aerodynamic balance - they simply complete the mechanical actuation circuit - hence balance. > >Aerodynamic balance involves active aerodynamic surfaces of the control surface that are place ahead of the effective hinge line. > >Mass balance refers to mass added forward of the effective hinge line to result in a painted, ready to fly, surface static balance (pivoting on the actual hinge) with the leading edge about 10? down. > >Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote:[quote] Andy, > I am considering adding mass to my ailerons just as you would with a nose wheel that shimmies. If you add some weight to the trailing edge of the ailerons it would make flutter at the speeds we fly almost impossible. In the Van's RV you add mass in the form of a steel pipe inside the ailerons. In the case of a nose wheel you can add lead inside the wheel pant and the shear mass of the weight make it harder to shimmy. One thing to note it has been the right wing that folds first and that is the light aileron so while it doesn't call for it in the plans I am seriously considering doing it. You can't counter balance the ailerons on a 601 because you have nowhere for the counter weight to go. > > > Gus, I've been thinking about aileron balance. How exactly do you balance one to know that it will not encounter certain frequencies. Is there are procedure for this. > >I'm guessing the XLs ailerons are meant to balance each other via the control cables? What if the cables get a slight bitof slack in them? > >Also, I'll have a trim tab and servo in my XL in one of the ailerons. Even though the plans don't mention balancing them (that I'm aware of yet) it would probably be a good idea to balance them. That being the case I'm guessing a mod to the outer portion of the aileron and rear spar to allow for a balance weight is in order. Even so, that will only get me static balance, how about dynamic balance? > > >Gus(at)flywithgus.com wrote: > >> Just an FYI. It doesn't have to be high airspeed. Many old timers may >> remember the Ritz Standard Ultralight. Herb Ritz met the end because of >> flutter. NTSB Ritz Flutter >> For >> example my "slow" Cessna 120 has mass balanced ailerons. Factors could >> be amount (weight) of paint, freedom of movement (flex hinge vs. piano), >> additional weight behind hinge line (trim servo), and changing the >> aerodynamic qualities of the surface (trim tab deflection). Not any one >> of these factors necessarily would make a surface flutter but it may be >> a combination of all. Every surface, even a balanced one, has a natural >> frequency which it will flutter. The surface just must be balanced in a >> way that it's frequency will never be encountered within the flight >> envelope. >> >> -Gus >> >> > > > > >Dave Downey > Harleysville (SE) PA > 100 HP Corvair > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and >> [b] > > >-------- >Andy Shontz > >do not archive > >CH601XL - Corvair >www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180654#180654 > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:41 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification I was told the following by an RV 8 pilot " plane did a Snap role above its permited weight, wings were stressed outboard, then the after a few flights, the wing snapped." Juan -----Original Message----- >From: PatrickW >Sent: May 1, 2008 6:03 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification > > > >> I just finished attaching the wings to my RV-8a and the difference is considerable. > > >If I'm not mistaken, didn't the RV-8 owned by Mr VanG himself shed it's wings, taking two of his friends...? > >Does anyone know any more about that, and if so, was there any changes made to the airframe after that? > >Patrick >XL/Corvair >N63PZ (reserved) > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180570#180570 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:39 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Barcelona translation From: "Gig Giacona" Well it is good to know that Spain's version of the NTSB can produce as useless a document as our NTSB. DO NOT ARCHIVE -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180666#180666 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:18 AM PST US From: A.F.Rupp@att.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601XL Pitot Location ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:15 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601XL Pitot Location From: "Gig Giacona" A.F.Rupp, Your post comes up blank on the web forum version. DO NOT ARCHIVE -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180701#180701 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:32:22 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL Down in Hungary - BRS Deployed From: "jreekree" ggower_99(at)yahoo.com wrote: > > > What I think happened in this case, is that either of them (pilot or passenger) accidentaly pulled the BRS handle. and the BRS pop out... > > It's irresponsible comments like this that hurt this forum. NOBODY cares what you think may have happened. Stick to the facts. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180707#180707 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:38:58 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601XL Pitot Location From: "lgingell" I put a "collar" (piece of plastic tubing about 5mm long) on my static port near the holes (about 3mm aft I think). This changed the airflow on the static port and decreased my IAS a few knots. I'm still reading about 5 knots high. I haven't disconnected the static in flight, but there is quite a bit of pressure (my shirt gets sucked down at the canopy sides), so I don't think it would help diagnose much in flight. However on a ground test, it would. You cannot adjust this on the Dynon. Nor do i think you'd want to. Dynon changed their minimum IAS registered from about 38 knots down to around 15 in their v3 software. I had used the old and the new. I didn't notice any difference except the IAS starts to show eariler on the takeoff roll, which is nice. I suspect the prop draft over the pitot is quite different on the ground, and may not reach it in the air. Putting the pitot further outboard wouldn't be bad, but I'd first consider moving the static port on to the fuselage (and maybe using one on each side). I even bought the vans static kit planning to do this....)and then bought an RV7A kit to go with the static kit! - another story!!) I get about 2650RPM static with my Jabiru 3300. I'm a bit over propped with my wooden sensenich 51" pitch, but it works nice in cruise, and I can still get to 3250rpm at full throttle (10.5gal/hr!). Cheers, ..lance XL/Jab3300/Dynons -------- Zodiac XL/Jab 3300 http://lancegingell.com/plane.asp Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180712#180712 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:06 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? From: "Andrewlieser" Has anyone used the NAPA 7220 self etching primer on their Zenith? It seems to be quite popular with th RV guys and would be more accessible for me. Just wondering if it offers the same corrosion protection...... Andrew Lieser -------- Andrew Lieser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180716#180716 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:25 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? From: "Tim Juhl" I use SEM self-etching primer but I believe what applies to one, applies to all. Zinc chromate would be the best for corrosion protection but you can't get it in rattle cans and it's use is restricted. Self etching primers provide good adhesion and provide some protection where aluminum pieces are riveted together. When used on steel it MUST be topcoated. If you do a search you will find that there has been much discussion on this issue in the past. Tim do not archive -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180719#180719 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:40 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link (flutter) From: "PatrickW" amyvega2005(at)earthlink. wrote: > Stick to the plans! I wonder if any of the accident aircraft had deviations from the plans...? It would be nice to know one way or another. Patrick XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180721#180721 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:05 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601XL Pitot Location From: "Tim Juhl" On my Cessnas the static port was on the side of the fuselage just behind the cowling... The alternate static air was drawn from the cockpit. On my Champ, the static port is located with the pitot like the XL and has a little collar on it (like a thick washer with a set-screw) set forward of the holes. You can move it back and forth to fine tune the system - another thing you might check is to make sure paint or gunk hasn't clogged the holes. To me, an ASI gives at best a relative indication of speed and I don't worry too much about the accuracy as long as it is consistent. There are so many factors the effect true air speed that you can't get too excited about it. My GPS gives me the best indication of actual progress. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180728#180728 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:12 AM PST US From: Keith Ashcraft Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? I use the NAPA 7220 for my plane. I also read on an RV-site that once he fo und out about it, he started using and and never looked back!! Keith *************************************************************************** ***** Andrewlieser wrote: mailto:Andrewlieser@gmail.com> Has anyone used the NAPA 7220 self etching primer on their Zenith? It seem s to be quite popular with th RV guys and would be more accessible for me. Just wondering if it offers the same corrosion protection...... Andrew Lieser -------- Andrew Lieser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180716#180716 -- ************************************* Keith Ashcraft ITT Industries Advanced Engineering & Sciences 5009 Centennial Blvd. Colorado Springs, CO 80919 (719) 599-1787 -- work (719) 332-4364 -- cell keith.ashcraft@itt.com keith.ashcraft1@us.army.mil ________________________________ This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may be proprietary and are in tended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addr essed. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT Corporati on. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the pres ence of viruses. ITT accepts no liability for any damage caused by any viru s transmitted by this e-mail. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:26 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fix for canopies which tilt too far forward From: "Tim Juhl" Looking at 6C2 (7/05) the distance that the mounting bolt on 6C2-2 is 290 mm back from the mounting bolt on 6B6-4. If I read your comments correctly then the distance that would prevent the canopy from contacting the cowling would be 303 mm, correct? BTW - I really appreciate this kind of information. You certainly help smooth the process out.... Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180732#180732 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:18 AM PST US From: ihab.awad@gmail.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Keith Ashcraft wrote: > I use the NAPA 7220 for my plane. I also read on an RV-site that once he > found out about it, he started using and and never looked back!! > Do you buy it at your local NAPA store? Any NAPA store? I tried searching on their Website but could not find it. Thanks and cheers, Ihab -- Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:37:50 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? From: "Andrewlieser" Thanks Tim, I do not live in a VERY corrosive type of environment but it did want to use some type of primer. I don't like ZINC chromate, nasty stuff, and my other choice was going with Corrosion X but its not as available as 7220 and more expensive. Thanks for your response, Andrew 601XL S/N - 6-7045 Rudder almost complete! -------- Andrew Lieser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180736#180736 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:57:33 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? From: "Andrewlieser" Ihab my local store has it in but it probably varies. I could not locate it on the NAPA site either but one call cleared it up! Glad to hear it worked well for you Kieth! -------- Andrew Lieser S/N 6-7045 http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180739#180739 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:43 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Fix for canopies which tilt too far forward On my plane, yes. But the bigger point is that it is probably different on each plane. That is why (if possible) that I recommend drilling and bolting 6C2-2 last - after you have built and fitted the whole canopy. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Juhl Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 11:26 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fix for canopies which tilt too far forward Looking at 6C2 (7/05) the distance that the mounting bolt on 6C2-2 is 290 mm back from the mounting bolt on 6B6-4. If I read your comments correctly then the distance that would prevent the canopy from contacting the cowling would be 303 mm, correct? BTW - I really appreciate this kind of information. You certainly help smooth the process out.... Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180732#180732 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:17:39 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification From: japhillipsga@aol.com Tim, on the RV wing, at least on the 8 & 9 that I have worked on and built, the forward end of the nose skin has a .125 "L" bracket riveted to the wing rib (wet tanks). Then a corsponding "L" bracket is bolted to the side of the fuselage. There is considerable doubler metal in the surrounding area providing great strength to the fuselage bracket. These two brackets are overlapped and a 5/8 bolt connects. Talking with other builders I have heard that the forward attachment complements the drag spar attachment in combating wing twist and that when the fuel tanks are full they illeminate wing droop?and?metal stretch from occurring. On the XL some doublers would have to be added and some nose skin would have to be removed for attachment (or maybe a plug hole?, but such modification would not be too difficult. Best Regards, Bill -----Original Message----- From: Tim Juhl Sent: Thu, 1 May 2008 4:35 pm Subject: Zenith-List: Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification I've often wondered about the strength of the rear spar attachment. With all the people stepping back there to board the plane it has to support more than just flight loads. It is critical to maintaining the XL's wing geometry even if the main spar carries the bulk of the load. That said, I would be reluctant to make a major modification to the design without ZAC's blessing. May I ask what you meant in your post where you said: "forward attachment point at the wing tip" Tim do not archive -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180553#180553 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:47 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Wing Attachment Modification From: japhillipsga@aol.com Paul, I for one appreciate your enlightened response. As I have completed my XL some years back it is really no longer a project, but rather an airplane I fly regularly and depend upon not to kill me and my Grandchildren. I retain only a margin of trust in any object I own and always consider that it (or anything) may have design and material flaws or errors. It would be less than prudent to blindly trust anyone's opinion other than yourself. Never the less, opinion of even?the least informed may be of some merit and I hope anyone with an idea will respond. Again, thank you for taking the time to offer your sensitive opinion?on the subject and I certainly don't believe your?making fun of me. Best regards, Bill do not archive.? -----Original Message----- From: Cndmovn Sent: Thu, 1 May 2008 8:12 pm Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Wing Attachment Modification "I am working on an airbus 380 and I looked at the zenith spar attachment".....it is like comparing apples to oranges!? One designer might have added thickness to a structure while another added physical attachments.?? This list had degenerated into a bunch of people raising issues and fears that can never be answered.? You might as well ask...If I put an underweight elephant in the right seat of the airplane, would adding another AN4 bold make it safe? There are few if no qualified people on this list to answer this question.? There are a LOT of people on this list who will give you an answer who have NO idea what they are talking about. Bottom line....if you don't like the design or trust the designer, sell the project and move onto something else.? BTW, before I get cat call for being insensitive, I AM NOT making fun of you.....just the rest of the so call engineers on this list who while give you "solutions" Paul On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 6:15 PM, M.Marcotte wrote: I would look?for sources of flutter?before tampering with the basic structure.? I mean like this one from Joe about the trim tab: "Use bolts to attach the horn, not rivets. The fasteners are loaded in tension. Mine became loose in fewer than 100 hours. Joe E N633Z (at) BFI 332 hours CH601XL, Jabiru 3300, Sensenich 64x49 On Sun, 7 May 2006" ? ? Doesn't this look like a smoking gun? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: japhillipsga@aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 2:58 PM Subject: Zenith-List: XL Wing Attachment Modification XL Friends, Flyers and Builders, I'm considering modifying the wing attachments for my XL. I just finished attaching the wings to my RV-8a and the difference is considerable. Beefed up rear spar attachment clamp and a forward attachment point at the wing tip. Any of you fellows that know RVs understand the difference in attachment physically. Sure would reduce the wing twising concern that may have contributed to various crashes. Anybody have any constructive, pro-active thoughts on the issue? Best regards, Bill of Georgia 601XL-3300 130 hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180530#180530 Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref=";http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:06 AM PST US From: Keith Ashcraft Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? Hi Ihab, Yes sir, I go to the local NAPA store and buy the rattle cans. Anywhere bet ween $4-$6 a can. It is pretty much equivalent to GPB 988, but 1/2 the cost .. Keith CH701 -- scratch N 38.9947 W 105.1305 Alt. 9,100' (snowed yesterday) *************************************************************** ihab.awad@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Keith Ashcraft > wrote: I use the NAPA 7220 for my plane. I also read on an RV-site that once he fo und out about it, he started using and and never looked back!! Do you buy it at your local NAPA store? Any NAPA store? I tried searching o n their Website but could not find it. Thanks and cheers, Ihab -- Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA -- ************************************* Keith Ashcraft ITT Industries Advanced Engineering & Sciences 5009 Centennial Blvd. Colorado Springs, CO 80919 (719) 599-1787 -- work (719) 332-4364 -- cell keith.ashcraft@itt.com keith.ashcraft1@us.army.mil ________________________________ This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may be proprietary and are in tended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addr essed. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT Corporati on. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the pres ence of viruses. ITT accepts no liability for any damage caused by any viru s transmitted by this e-mail. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:07 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Wing Attachment Modification From: japhillipsga@aol.com Frank, I certainly agree with you and I appreciate your opinion. I will either make such mods or I will not. Never the less, I decided to seek opinions from us builders about possible merit before bouncing the issue with ZAC. I suspect they are pretty sensitive to the issue and concerns by now. Something had to come first. Best regards, Bill -----Original Message----- From: Frank Roskind Sent: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:58 pm Subject: RE: Zenith-List: XL Wing Attachment Modification We don't know the causes of the accidents, nor may we ever know.? We know that one symptom of the failure was a failure of the wing spar, but we do not understand the causative mechanism.? I have read thousands of accident reports from many modes of transportation, and the only thing I would say is consistent is the fog that remains after a good investigation.? We know that some failures were part of the causal chain of some accidents, and that the accidents would likely not have happened had the failure not happened, or if there had been coverage for the failure, but in the end there is a lot of educated, in some cases very highly educated, speculation.? I am not an engineer, but I do have duties which require me to find common factors in accidents.? In this case the apparent common factor is the wing failure.? We know almost nothing about the serviced history previous to the flights.? It is very possible that a crack initiated days, weeks, months, or even years before the a ccidents.? The accidents may have involved a unique alignment of circumstances that has not occurred, and probably will not occur,?to potential analysts.? It may be that crosswind landings on turf fields in cold weather during the dark of the moon affects holes reamed and then polished with the wrong color of scotchbrite pad, but only in aircraft flown by left-handed, right-eyed pilots flying from the left seat.? Aside from the phase of the moon, it is possible that any of these factors might have influenced the likelihood of a wing failure, and there are thousands of other, similarly inoccuous sounding conditions that might actuallly have had an effect.? OTOH, strenghteneing an attachment point without engineering support increases the likelihood that you will transfer forces to a different point on the airplane, which is not designed to handle the additional load.? Mr. Heintz is generous enough to lend engineering support to builders who ask for it, so I believe that you a r e foolhardy if you are not a qualifed engineer, and also decline to run your proposed changes by?the designer. Subject: Zenith-List: XL Wing Attachment Modification From: japhillipsga@aol.com XL Friends, Flyers and Builders, I'm considering modifying the wing attachments for my XL. I just finished attaching the wings to my RV-8a and the difference is considerable. Beefed up rear spar attachment clamp and a forward attachment point at the wing tip. Any of you fellows that know RVs understand the difference in attachment physically. Sure would reduce the wing twising concern that may have contributed to various crashes. Anybody have any constructive, pro-active thoughts on the issue? Best regards, Bill of Georgia 601XL-3300 130 hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180530#180530 Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution Make i'm yours. Create a custom banner to support your cause. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:01:56 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification From: japhillipsga@aol.com Jeff, I think you may have over looked the fact that the RV wing does attach at the rear spar as well. I drilled and reamed and bolted mine last month. The RV rear spear attachment is bolted for shear, but also has three layers of metal lapping that actually are clamped together by the bolt. Look again, Best regards, Bill do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Sent: Fri, 2 May 2008 12:56 am Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: XL Wing Attachment Modification The wing of the Van's RV attaches to the leading edge?fuel tank inboard rib not the rear spar like the 601. The fuel tank is removable and when you remove it you also?unbolt?the attach point for the wing. But the spar is deeper in the wing also. ? Jeff May I ask what you meant in your post where you said: "forward attachment point at the wing tip" ? Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:17:27 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CH601XL Pitot Location From: "Dave Nixon" Thanks for all of the help on the Pitot system. After contemplating the Dynon D180 and my mechanical 2 1/8" UMA ASI systems ( UMA is backup) (both are doing the same thing, indicating high) and looking it all over real good, I decided to move it. When I called the factory and talked with Caleb, he said No Problem. So I moved it outbaord of the #7 rib but the hole through the skin is about 40mm from the wing spar rivet line instead of the 150mm per plans. Caleb was surprised when I told him that the plans called for 150mm. During the pitot examination, I found that the leading edges of the tubes were slightly sandblasted and starting to rust. I presume that this is from the prop wash. My vent tube, next rib out, has no signs of sandblasting. After finishing the move I tested the system and all seemed to work fine during ground runup. Unfortunately, unless you are doing a racetrack route, GPs is not much good because that gives you ground speed. The FAA wants you to record accurate VSO, VX and VY. Can't do that without a reasonably accurate IAS system. So its off to breakfast tomorrow with three other planes and I will see then how much improved the IAS is. They are the ones who tipped me off in the first place last Saturday. I will keep you all posted on what I find. Dave Nixon (18 Hrs down, 22 Hrs to go) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180767#180767 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:21 PM PST US From: The Keeners Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Parts for sale... I'd be lying if I said the accidents weren't weighing on me... However, it's more financial than anything. I work for the govt. and my pay was capped/cut in Sept. '06. With my pay continuing to go down over the next three years and with the rise in gas and everything else it's just not feasible. I do want to sell all at once if I can... (rudder/tail and wing kit) Thanks for the inquiry. Forest K. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:16 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: HD question addendum All- I've received a number of e-mails from other listers stating that the return address for the poster of this question was in evidence in their e-mails. For whatever reason, the e-mail I responded to didn't have it. That is unless, I'm supposed to click on "Dick" to address my response. If so, I guess I'm ignorant, and I can live with that. Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, stupidity relates to most of the mistakes I've made on my project and is a different thing. Original e-mail attached. Matt, do you have any input? In any event, Dick wasn't the first to ask the question. It was the same one I asked WW before committing to the 'Vair, and the answer is straight from WW. Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS Fuse/Corvair Dick- I'd be glad to respond to you off list, but there's no e-mail link for you. HD, HDS, and XL all use the same components and attachment locations. Differences are restricted to the fuel system in the XL. Bill do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick To: Zenith-List@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 9:07 AM Subject: Zenith-List: 601HD question Has anyone purchased the nosebowl, baffling and hinged cowling from W. Wynne for a 601HD? Am trying to determine for a friend whether any modification is necessary between the baffling and hinged cowling for a XL versus HD... My friend is awaiting a previously ordered engine mount. Thanks, Dick please feel free to contact me off-list ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:29:34 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? From: "rbjjr" Just FYI... Zinc Chromate is readily available in rattle cans and is easy to get. Tempo has a Marine Zinc Chromate primer that according to their site is self etching. I have tried it on well cleaned and acid etched 6061 and it adheres very well. I can get it at my local hardware store, West Marine and Boat US. I plan to use it plus Corrosion X. Burke Johnson CH701 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180801#180801 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:10:35 PM PST US From: JohnDRead@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? It works great I use it all the time on the 701 I am building. do not archive. John Read Phone: 303-648-3261 Fax: 303-648-3262 Cell: 719-494-4567 In a message dated 5/2/2008 10:50:53 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, Andrewlieser@gmail.com writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Andrewlieser" Has anyone used the NAPA 7220 self etching primer on their Zenith? It seems to be quite popular with th RV guys and would be more accessible for me. Just wondering if it offers the same corrosion protection...... Andrew Lieser -------- Andrew Lieser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180716#180716 **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:53 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? From: "Tim Juhl" I stand corrected. Checking West Marine I found this: MOELLER Zinc Chromate Primers From $15.99 USD - I also see that aircraft spruce is now carrying cans made by PTI. You do pay a premium for shipping, however. That said, Zinc Chromate is still nasty stuff. I used to teach chemistry and at one point the state made us turn over all bottles of Chromate compounds to a toxic waste disposal company. There are a lot of things I used to handle and inhale without protection that have since been found to be very hazardous. Good corrosion protection but use it with care. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180810#180810 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:28:03 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: NAPA self etching Primer...Anybody use this? From: "Andrewlieser" Thanks to everyone who replied! I should get some time to do the priming this weekend and hopefully riveting! I will post some pictures on my webpage of the 7220 priming for all who may in the future be curious. -------- Andrew Lieser S/N 6-7045 http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180812#180812 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:03 PM PST US From: A.F.Rupp@ATT.NET Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601XL Pitot Location ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:18 PM PST US From: LYNN WELSCH Subject: Zenith-List: Parting Out 601XL I am disassembling my 2004 XL. I bought it from the builder who constructed it at an assistance facility (CZAW) in the Czech Republic. I have flown 335 of the 382 hours on the aircraft and engine. It was last flown on April 19. The most recent condition inspection was done in March 08. Lockwood Aviation serviced the engine in December 07. There is no visible or otherwise known damage. I will sell the firewall forward, the canopy assembly and any non-structural components. The fwf is a "Skyshop" clone (912ULS with vacuum pump, prop extension, hd starter, air box, slipper clutch, Woodcomp composite prop and spinner and composite upper and lower cowlings).The canopy is lightly tinted, has a Koger sunshade and has no cracks. I can be reached at prwelsch@hughes.net. Philip Welsch Mimbres, NM ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:20 PM PST US From: "Jerry Shepard" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Wing Attachment Modification I'm with you Frank, probably the wrong color of scotchbrite. That being said, I for one will add some of the 11# saved by using the Grove Landing gear instead of the ZAC one to the wing attachment area, both wing and center spar. This is an experimental aircraft!!! If this causes something else to become the weakest link, so be it, My mods will most likeky be about 3-4 Sq feet of 1/4" 6061 T6 placed between the spar caps, 50 solid rivets and 12 more bolts. About 6#. I will leave the current attachment points as they are. I probably will run it by ZAC, however, my past experience has been less than exciting in doing so. I guess everyone needs to seek their own level of experimental security. My 701 definately is Experimental with about 100+# too much firewall forward, 30 ft wingspan and VG's. Everyone who wonders how Chris handles similar things should go to the 701 site and look at the rear spar attachment channel modification. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank Roskind To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 7:58 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: XL Wing Attachment Modification We don't know the causes of the accidents, nor may we ever know. We know that one symptom of the failure was a failure of the wing spar, but we do not understand the causative mechanism. I have read thousands of accident reports from many modes of transportation, and the only thing I would say is consistent is the fog that remains after a good investigation. We know that some failures were part of the causal chain of some accidents, and that the accidents would likely not have happened had the failure not happened, or if there had been coverage for the failure, but in the end there is a lot of educated, in some cases very highly educated, speculation. I am not an engineer, but I do have duties which require me to find common factors in accidents. In this case the apparent common factor is the wing failure. We know almost nothing about the serviced history previous to the flights. It is very possible that a crack initiated days, weeks, months, or even years before the accidents. The accidents may have involved a unique alignment of circumstances that has not occurred, and probably will not occur, to potential analysts. It may be that crosswind landings on turf fields in cold weather during the dark of the moon affects holes reamed and then polished with the wrong color of scotchbrite pad, but only in aircraft flown by left-handed, right-eyed pilots flying from the left seat. Aside from the phase of the moon, it is possible that any of these factors might have influenced the likelihood of a wing failure, and there are thousands of other, similarly inoccuous sounding conditions that might actuallly have had an effect. OTOH, strenghteneing an attachment point without engineering support increases the likelihood that you will transfer forces to a different point on the airplane, which is not designed to handle the additional load. Mr. Heintz is generous enough to lend engineering support to builders who ask for it, so I believe that you are foolhardy if you are not a qualifed engineer, and also decline to run your proposed changes by the designer. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: XL Wing Attachment Modification Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 15:58:54 -0400 From: japhillipsga@aol.com XL Friends, Flyers and Builders, I'm considering modifying the wing attachments for my XL. I just finished attaching the wings to my RV-8a and the difference is considerable. Beefed up rear spar attachment clamp and a forward attachment point at the wing tip. Any of you fellows that know RVs understand the difference in attachment physically. Sure would reduce the wing twising concern that may have contributed to various crashes. Anybody have any constructive, pro-active thoughts on the issue? Best regards, Bill of Georgia 601XL-3300 130 hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180530#180530 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Make i'm yours. 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