---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 05/06/08: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:47 AM - Re: Compound curve at rear of outside canopy flashing? (LarryMcFarland) 2. 07:53 AM - Re: N5886Q???? Interesting story...... (Andrewlieser) 3. 10:53 AM - Another XL Down - Brazil (Iberplanes IGL) 4. 11:25 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (MHerder) 5. 11:28 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Craig Payne) 6. 11:30 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Juan Vega) 7. 11:31 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Steve Shuck) 8. 11:45 AM - Another XL Down - Brazil (Craig Payne) 9. 12:46 PM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (swater6) 10. 12:52 PM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Iberplanes IGL) 11. 02:03 PM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (TxDave) 12. 02:47 PM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (MHerder) 13. 02:55 PM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (MHerder) 14. 04:22 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (LarryMcFarland) 15. 04:44 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (William Dominguez) 16. 04:50 PM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Carlos Sa) 17. 04:58 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Craig Payne) 18. 05:49 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (LarryMcFarland) 19. 06:52 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Jerry Shepard) 20. 07:02 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (William Dominguez) 21. 07:14 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Kevin Bonds) 22. 07:26 PM - First flight (Frank Probst) 23. 07:42 PM - Re: First flight (cookwithgas) 24. 07:44 PM - Re: First flight () 25. 08:07 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Cndmovn) 26. 08:25 PM - Re: First flight (Terry Phillips) 27. 08:45 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (ihab.awad@gmail.com) 28. 09:02 PM - Re: First flight (Jeff) 29. 09:11 PM - Re: First flight (LHusky@aol.com) 30. 10:17 PM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (moorecomp) 31. 10:51 PM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (TxDave) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:37 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Compound curve at rear of outside canopy flashing? Craig, This is the place where your scratch builder instinct has to take over. The outside of the square frame tube and the latch plate must be flush outside. I'd be inclined to grind off the lip, bend inward the latch plate just behind the latch to gain radius enough to realign with the fuselage. There's no need for a compound radius as you'll find the flashing will contact the fuselage and then scrape on it every time it's closed. You may have to add radius to the square tube to get it perfectly aligned with the side skin. The contact edge with the fuselage skin and support bow can be compensated by adding a patch of leather or fabric to the inside bottom edge of the rear flashing. Drawing 6-C-2 shows the relationship of the side frames with the latch plate, but the top view is exaggerated a bit. Remove the acrylic. Rework for your best radius and alignment first. Then go for the flashing, and then the canopy. http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/insideangle.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/cnpybowsrearqtr.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/insideanglecuts.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/canopyframeup.gif You may can fit the side flashing before the canopy to get the alignment and acquire slight curvatures first. Having to work around the canopy acrylic is risky until your bows side frames and flashing fit clecoed in place. The link to my canopy page is: Click the image to get a larger picture. www.macsmachine.com/html/canopy.htm Good luck, Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Craig Payne wrote: > I'm working on the minefield which is the XL canopy. My current > problem/question is how to wrap the outside flashing around the last bit of > the canopy's curve. On the steel canopy frame supplied with my QBK the plate > the latch is welded to doesn't curve in from bottom to top to follow the > curve of the canopy. It isn't even flat - it curves out (two pictures > attached). The lip is most pronounced along the upper edge of the plate > between the rear of the actual latch mechanism and the tube that the rear > canopy bow inserts into. > > So the flashing has to curve around this lip AND curve around to meet the > rear of the canopy. Unless I buy an English wheel and develop a new skill > quickly I don't see how to do this. I see a few possible fixes: > > - grind/cut off the worst of the lip while still leaving enough of the plate > intact to support the bow. > - stop the flashing at the tube and use a second piece between the tube and > the rear edge of the canopy > - use a hammer to stretch the flashing around the lip. > > I suspect I may have to use a combination of these ideas. > > -- Craig > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:14 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: N5886Q???? Interesting story...... From: "Andrewlieser" Thanks to all. The link was a very nice touch! I'll have to see if I can get a hold of her for a demo flight possibly! Do Not Archive -------- Andrew Lieser S/N 6-7045 http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181491#181491 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:53:13 AM PST US From: "Iberplanes IGL" Subject: Zenith-List: Another XL Down - Brazil Hi list, I=B4m so sorry to tell you that another XL had a fatal accident. This time it was an XL in Brazil Alberto Martin Iberplanes IGL http://www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Espa=F1a ----- Original Message ----- From: Airfox To: Grupo Zodiac Brasil ; Grupo Stol Brasil ; Grupo Abraex Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 5:26 PM Subject: [ZodiacBrasil] Trag=E9dia com o meu amigo Lopes. Amogos. Boa tarde. Trag=E9dia. O nosso amigo Lopes, caiu e morreu com o Zodiac XL que n=F3s o ajudamos a construir. O acidente foi ontem a tarde e somente hoje foi encontrado. Conversei somente hoje com o Dal Magro que foi o engenheiro que acompanhou ele na constru=E7=E3o e nos voos de teste e a informa=E7=E3o que ele me deu =E9 que uma testemunha de uma fazenda viu que ele estava em voo nivelado a +/- 3500 ft e entrou numa espiral e caiu a quase 90=BA. Estou arrazado e muito triste por ter perdido um grande amigo, vamos acompanhar tudo de perto e vamos tentar descobrir o que aconteceu. Faremos uma investiga=E7=E3o s=E9ria e imparcial, os que me conhecem sabem da seriedade do nosso trabalho. Meus sentimentos aos seus familiares, em especial a esposa dele, Rosana, que tanto o ajudou nesse sonho. Viajamos juntos para Sun'n Fun e ele estava apaixonado pelo avi=E3o. AirBeto Airfox. Que trag=E9dia... __._,_.___ Mensagens neste t=F3pico (1) Responder (atrav=E9s da web) | Adicionar um novo t=F3pico Mensagens | Arquivos | Fotos | Links | Banco de dados | Enquetes | Associados | Agenda Alterar configura=E7=F5es via web (Requer Yahoo! ID) Alterar configura=E7=F5es via e-mail: Alterar recebimento para lista di=E1ria de mensagens | Alterar formato para o tradicional Visite seu Grupo | Termos de uso do Yahoo! Grupos | Sair do grupo Atividade nos =FAltimos dias a.. 2Novos usu=E1rios Visite seu Grupo Yahoo! Mail Conecte-se ao mundo Prote=E7=E3o anti-spam Muito mais espa=E7o Yahoo! Barra Instale gr=E1tis Buscar sites na web Checar seus e-mails . Yahoo! Grupos Crie seu pr=F3prio grupo A melhor forma de comunica=E7=E3o . __,_._,___ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:25:02 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil From: "MHerder" Do you know when the incident occurred? or any other information? I seem to recall recently that another list member had just made first flights in Brazil I believe.. -------- One Rivet at a Time! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181544#181544 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:28:14 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another XL Down - Brazil Here is a translations from Google: =93Our friend Lopes, fell and died with the Zodiac XL like us to help build. The accident was only yesterday afternoon and was found today. Conversei only today with the Dal Magro who was the engineer who accompanied him in construction and in test flights and the information he gave me is that a witness saw a ranch that he was in level flight to + / - 3500 ft and entered a spiral and fell to almost 90 =B0. Arrazado and I am very sad to have lost a great friend, we will monitor everything closely and we will try to find out what happened. We will make a serious and impartial investigation, those who know me know the seriousness of our work. My feelings for their relatives, particularly his wife, Rosana, who both helped in that dream. Travel together to Sun'n Fun and he was passionate by plane.=94 -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Iberplanes IGL Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:50 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Another XL Down - Brazil Hi list, I=B4m so sorry to tell you that another XL had a fatal accident. This time it was an XL in Brazil Alberto Martin Iberplanes IGL http://www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Espa=F1a ----- Original Message ----- From: Airfox Grupo Stol Brasil ; Grupo Abraex Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 5:26 PM Subject: [ZodiacBrasil] Trag=E9dia com o meu amigo Lopes. Amogos. Boa tarde. Trag=E9dia. O nosso amigo Lopes, caiu e morreu com o Zodiac XL que n=F3s o ajudamos a construir. O acidente foi ontem a tarde e somente hoje foi encontrado. Conversei somente hoje com o Dal Magro que foi o engenheiro que acompanhou ele na constru=E7=E3o e nos voos de teste e a informa=E7=E3o que ele me deu =E9 que uma testemunha de uma fazenda viu que ele estava em voo nivelado a +/- 3500 ft e entrou numa espiral e caiu a quase 90=BA. Estou arrazado e muito triste por ter perdido um grande amigo, vamos acompanhar tudo de perto e vamos tentar descobrir o que aconteceu. Faremos uma investiga=E7=E3o s=E9ria e imparcial, os que me conhecem sabem da seriedade do nosso trabalho. Meus sentimentos aos seus familiares, em especial a esposa dele, Rosana, que tanto o ajudou nesse sonho. Viajamos juntos para Sun'n Fun e ele estava apaixonado pelo avi=E3o. AirBeto Airfox. Que trag=E9dia... __._,_.___ Mensagens neste t=F3pico (1) Responder (atrav=E9s da web) | Adicionar um novo t=F3pico Mensagens | Arquivos | Fotos | Links | Banco de dados | Enquetes | Associados | Agenda Yahoo! Grupos Alterar configura=E7=F5es via web (Requer Yahoo! ID) Alterar configura=E7=F5es via e-mail: Alterar recebimento para lista di=E1ria de mensagens | Alterar formato para o tradicional Visite seu Grupo | Termos de uso do Yahoo! Grupos | Sair do grupo Atividade nos =FAltimos dias =B7 2 Novos usu=E1rios Visite seu Grupo Yahoo! Mail Conecte-se ao mundo Prote=E7=E3o anti-spam Muito mais espa=E7o Yahoo! Barra Instale seu pr=F3prio grupo A melhor forma de comunica=E7=E3o .. __,_._,___ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:30:37 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another XL Down - Brazil By my bad Portugese, it went into heavy clouds at 3500 ft and spun in. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Iberplanes IGL >Sent: May 6, 2008 1:49 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Another XL Down - Brazil > >Hi list, > >Im so sorry to tell you that another XL had a fatal accident. This time it was an XL in Brazil > >Alberto Martin >Iberplanes IGL >http://www.iberplanes.es >Igualada - Barcelona - Espaa > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Airfox > To: Grupo Zodiac Brasil ; Grupo Stol Brasil ; Grupo Abraex > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 5:26 PM > Subject: [ZodiacBrasil] Tragdia com o meu amigo Lopes. > > > Amogos. > > Boa tarde. > Tragdia. > O nosso amigo Lopes, caiu e morreu com o Zodiac XL que ns o ajudamos a construir. O acidente foi ontem a tarde e somente hoje foi encontrado. Conversei somente hoje com o Dal Magro que foi o engenheiro que acompanhou ele na construo e nos voos de teste e a informao que ele me deu que uma testemunha de uma fazenda viu que ele estava em voo nivelado a +/- 3500 ft e entrou numa espiral e caiu a quase 90. Estou arrazado e muito triste por ter perdido um grande amigo, vamos acompanhar tudo de perto e vamos tentar descobrir o que aconteceu. Faremos uma investigao sria e imparcial, os que me conhecem sabem da seriedade do nosso trabalho. Meus sentimentos aos seus familiares, em especial a esposa dele, Rosana, que tanto o ajudou nesse sonho. > Viajamos juntos para Sun'n Fun e ele estava apaixonado pelo avio. > > AirBeto > Airfox. Que tragdia... > > __._,_.___ > Mensagens neste tpico (1) Responder (atravs da web) | Adicionar um novo tpico > Mensagens | Arquivos | Fotos | Links | Banco de dados | Enquetes | Associados | Agenda > > Alterar configuraes via web (Requer Yahoo! ID) > Alterar configuraes via e-mail: Alterar recebimento para lista diria de mensagens | Alterar formato para o tradicional > Visite seu Grupo | Termos de uso do Yahoo! Grupos | Sair do grupo Atividade nos ltimos dias > a.. 2Novos usurios > Visite seu Grupo > Yahoo! Mail > Conecte-se ao mundo > > Proteo anti-spam > > Muito mais espao > > Yahoo! Barra > Instale grtis > > Buscar sites na web > > Checar seus e-mails . > > Yahoo! Grupos > Crie seu prprio grupo > > A melhor forma de comunicao > > . > __,_._,___ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:31:37 AM PST US From: Steve Shuck Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another XL Down - Brazil Translated message Good afternoon. Tragedy. Our Lopes friend, fell and died with Zodiac XL that we help it to construct. The accident was yesterday the afternoon and today it was only found. I only talked today with the Lean Dal that was the engineer whom it in the construction and the voos of test folloied and the information that it gave to me is that a witness of a farm saw that it was in voo been even +/- 3500 ft and entered in a spiral and fell 90 almost. I am arrazado and very sad for having lost a great friend, we go to follow everything of close and we go to try to discover what it happened. We will make a serious inquiry and impartial, the ones that know me know of the seriousness of our work. My familiar feelings to its, in special one the wife of it, Rosana, that as much helped it in this dream. We travel together for Sun'n Fun and it it was gotten passionate by the airplane. AirBeto Airfox. That tragedy... Iberplanes IGL wrote: Hi list, Im so sorry to tell you that another XL had a fatal accident. This time it was an XL in Brazil Alberto Martin Iberplanes IGL http://www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Espaa ----- Original Message ----- From: Airfox To: Grupo Zodiac Brasil ; Grupo Stol Brasil ; Grupo Abraex Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 5:26 PM Subject: [ZodiacBrasil] Tragdia com o meu amigo Lopes. Amogos. Boa tarde. Tragdia. O nosso amigo Lopes, caiu e morreu com o Zodiac XL que ns o ajudamos a construir. O acidente foi ontem a tarde e somente hoje foi encontrado. Conversei somente hoje com o Dal Magro que foi o engenheiro que acompanhou ele na construo e nos voos de teste e a informao que ele me deu que uma testemunha de uma fazenda viu que ele estava em voo nivelado a +/- 3500 ft e entrou numa espiral e caiu a quase 90. Estou arrazado e muito triste por ter perdido um grande amigo, vamos acompanhar tudo de perto e vamos tentar descobrir o que aconteceu. Faremos uma investigao sria e imparcial, os que me conhecem sabem da seriedade do nosso trabalho. Meus sentimentos aos seus familiares, em especial a esposa dele, Rosana, que tanto o ajudou nesse sonho. Viajamos juntos para Sun'n Fun e ele estava apaixonado pelo avio. AirBeto Airfox. Que tragdia... __._,_.___ Mensagens neste tpico (1) Responder (atravs da web) | Adicionar um novo tpico Mensagens | Arquivos | Fotos | Links | Banco de dados | Enquetes | Associados | Agenda Alterar configuraes via web (Requer Yahoo! 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Try it now. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:45:12 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: Zenith-List: Another XL Down - Brazil It may have been this plane and pilot. If so he certainly had lots of flying experience. He sent a "first flight" announcement to the list on 4/26. -- Craig From: Roberto Ap. Rodrigues de Brito [mailto:lenabeto@uol.com.br] Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 6:49 PM Subject: Fw: Enviando email: p3240001.jpg, p3240005.jpg Hi guys. How are you? This is Ricardo Lopes's Zodiac TD by Airfox. (he's my friend) For me it's beautifull :) :) He flown it today afternoon and he said that the plane is great, nice. He is an Agricultural Pilot and he has 18.500 hours as pilot. Rgds. Beto. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:12 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil From: "swater6" http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=42720 Sad.. it appears that this is Mr. Lopes that posted last week. Perhaps father and son both involved if this story is correct. My prayers for them both.... Scott Below is a Google translation from an article I found on yahoo Brazil. A single fell in the afternoon of Monday when the council sobrevoava gaucho of capon of Lions, causing the death of the pilot of the aircraft, Wolkwes Ricardo Lopes, of 51 years, and mechanical Valdir Silveira Lopes, 25 years. The Fire Brigade received the information about the accident during the morning and began the search today morning. In the early afternoon, firefighters were still at the site of the collapse, kills closed and inaccessible, and awaiting the end of the work of experts to remove the bodies of the single. According to a fireman, the unit was completely destroyed. -------- 601 XL kit N596SW reserved Tail, control surfaces and both wings complete. Now working on fuselage www.scottwaters.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181567#181567 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:43 PM PST US From: "Iberplanes IGL" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another XL Down - Brazil Some translation: Original: .... informao que ele me deu que uma testemunha de uma fazenda viu que ele estava em voo nivelado a +/- 3500 ft e entrou numa espiral e caiu a quase 90. Spanish: ... y la informacin que l me dio un testigo de una hacienda que vio que l estaba en vuelo nivelado a +/- 3500 ft y entr en una espiral y se cay a casi 90. english: .... and the information given to me by a farmer who saw the plane flying leveled at +/-3500 Ft and suddenly went on a decent spiral doing a 90 turn ... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Juan Vega" Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 8:27 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another XL Down - Brazil > > By my bad Portugese, it went into heavy clouds at 3500 ft and spun in. > > Juan > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Iberplanes IGL >>Sent: May 6, 2008 1:49 PM >>To: zenith-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Zenith-List: Another XL Down - Brazil >> >>Hi list, >> >>Im so sorry to tell you that another XL had a fatal accident. This time >>it was an XL in Brazil >> >>Alberto Martin >>Iberplanes IGL >>http://www.iberplanes.es >>Igualada - Barcelona - Espaa >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Airfox >> To: Grupo Zodiac Brasil ; Grupo Stol Brasil ; Grupo Abraex >> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 5:26 PM >> Subject: [ZodiacBrasil] Tragdia com o meu amigo Lopes. >> >> >> >> Amogos. >> >> Boa tarde. >> Tragdia. >> O nosso amigo Lopes, caiu e morreu com o Zodiac XL que ns o ajudamos a >> construir. O acidente foi ontem a tarde e somente hoje foi encontrado. >> Conversei somente hoje com o Dal Magro que foi o engenheiro que >> acompanhou ele na construo e nos voos de teste e a informao que ele >> me deu que uma testemunha de uma fazenda viu que ele estava em voo >> nivelado a +/- 3500 ft e entrou numa espiral e caiu a quase 90. Estou >> arrazado e muito triste por ter perdido um grande amigo, vamos acompanhar >> tudo de perto e vamos tentar descobrir o que aconteceu. Faremos uma >> investigao sria e imparcial, os que me conhecem sabem da seriedade do >> nosso trabalho. Meus sentimentos aos seus familiares, em especial a >> esposa dele, Rosana, que tanto o ajudou nesse sonho. >> Viajamos juntos para Sun'n Fun e ele estava apaixonado pelo avio. >> >> AirBeto >> Airfox. Que tragdia... >> >> __._,_.___ >> Mensagens neste tpico (1) Responder (atravs da web) | Adicionar um >> novo tpico >> Mensagens | Arquivos | Fotos | Links | Banco de dados | Enquetes | >> Associados | Agenda >> >> Alterar configuraes via web (Requer Yahoo! ID) >> Alterar configuraes via e-mail: Alterar recebimento para lista diria >> de mensagens | Alterar formato para o tradicional >> Visite seu Grupo | Termos de uso do Yahoo! Grupos | Sair do grupo >> Atividade nos ltimos dias >> a.. 2Novos usurios >> Visite seu Grupo >> Yahoo! Mail >> Conecte-se ao mundo >> >> Proteo anti-spam >> >> Muito mais espao >> >> Yahoo! Barra >> Instale grtis >> >> Buscar sites na web >> >> Checar seus e-mails . >> >> Yahoo! Grupos >> Crie seu prprio grupo >> >> A melhor forma de comunicao >> >> . >> __,_._,___ > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:05 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil From: "TxDave" What a tragedy. These guys in Brazil are serious XL builders. http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-workshop-brazil.html I have corresponded with Beto of AirFox for the past couple of years. They do very high quality work and make beautiful airplanes. My sympathy to the family. Dave Clay Temple, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181578#181578 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:46 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil From: "MHerder" http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/ Take a look at this link, I don't speak spanish/portugese but it appears that the 1 1/2" pieces likely used the (presumably) used for the spar were 6351 T6. Is this correct? I just kind of stumbled on this when looking at the site. Take a look at the receipts and let me know what y'all think. I haven't heard of this alloy but I will look it up for sure. Especially since Chris's latest letter eludes to the usage of improper materials. Oh, BTW I googled the alloy and found a bunch of scuba tanks that were made from the alloy have been exploding. But I'm no metalurgist or accident investigator... Just a concerned Zodiac builder. -------- One Rivet at a Time! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181584#181584 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:50 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil From: "MHerder" http://www.thermaflo.com/engref_mech.shtml So according to this table of values the 6351 appears to be stronger little stronger in tensile but has a lower fatigue endurance limit. Does anyone know how fatigue enurance limit would be measured? -------- One Rivet at a Time! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181585#181585 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:22:55 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil Michael, The Chris Heintz letter also mentions that the European spar and caps may be of a smaller section because of the UL mandates. This would explain the progressive nature of the cracks and final pop that let the wings go. The 6351-T6 is only 92% the endurance strength of 6061-T6 and if the sections are thinner or lesser, you have found the smoking gun that explains "wing failure". Add to this the quick-time construction of an overseas supplier/manufacturer and whatever shortcuts they may have introduced,,,, This may all be understood eventually. Again, stay with the plans and the original design to be completely safe. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com MHerder wrote: > > http://www.thermaflo.com/engref_mech.shtml > > So according to this table of values the 6351 appears to be stronger little stronger in tensile but has a lower fatigue endurance limit. Does anyone know how fatigue enurance limit would be measured? > > -------- > One Rivet at a Time! > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181585#181585 > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:14 PM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil Also, it seems that this plane had a BRS chute: http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/fotos/24-03-2007/images.html Check the last picture of the first row, the one with the word SIRAC. I think SIRAC is the initials the use for BRS. If that is the case, I wonder why he didn't pull the chute. Maybe he though he could recover the plane on time or got incapacitated. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/ Take a look at this link, I don't speak spanish/portugese but it appears that the 1 1/2" pieces likely used the (presumably) used for the spar were 6351 T6. Is this correct? I just kind of stumbled on this when looking at the site. Take a look at the receipts and let me know what y'all think. I haven't heard of this alloy but I will look it up for sure. Especially since Chris's latest letter eludes to the usage of improper materials. Oh, BTW I googled the alloy and found a bunch of scuba tanks that were made from the alloy have been exploding. But I'm no metalurgist or accident investigator... Just a concerned Zodiac builder. -------- One Rivet at a Time! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181584#181584 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:26 PM PST US From: "Carlos Sa" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another XL Down - Brazil It was indeed Ricardo's airplane. The site of the accident is a few kilometres from Pelotas, the city where he lived (and where I lived for about a year back in the late sixties). In this satellite image you can identify the hangar and tank that appear in the pictures that Craig posted. *http://tinyurl.com/6zl9tt* Ricardo and I exchanged a few notes over the past several months. He seemed like a very nice guy, and very passionate about his XL and aviation in general. Life sucks. Carlos CH601-HD, plans. 2008/5/6 Craig Payne : > It may have been this plane and pilot. If so he certainly had lots of > flying experience. > > > He sent a "first flight" announcement to the list on 4/26. > > > -- Craig > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:14 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil > I wonder why he didn't pull the chute. Maybe he though he could recover the plane on time or got incapacitated. I thought that one report said that the pilot and mechanic died. The mechanic could have pulled the chute. Also speaking of modifications, the plane linked to appears to have wet wing: http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/fotos/24-03-2007/Partes%20do% 20Zodiac%20429.jpg -- Craig ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:49:30 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil This aircraft had many mods that were intended to bring a light aircraft into much faster operating speeds and weights than the controls and linkages provided for the standard 601. Nice looking, but bold mods that could put safety issues up front. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Craig Payne wrote: > > *> * I wonder why he didn't pull the chute. Maybe he though he could > recover the plane on time or got incapacitated. > > ** > > *I thought that one report said that the pilot and mechanic died. The > mechanic could have pulled the chute.* > > * * > > *Also speaking of modifications, the plane linked to appears to have > wet wing:* > > * * > > *http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/fotos/24-03-2007/Partes%20do%20Zodiac%20429.jpg* > > * * > > *-- Craig* > > * * ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:50 PM PST US From: "Jerry Shepard" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil If a wing also came off this 601, I for one find this totally unacceptable. There should be much more tolerance than a few percent of strength difference built into the design. There has to be many more 601's out there with similiar mods, changes. This was not an old-stress fatigued aircraft. A cessna 172 is rated +3.8 -1.52 at gross. They don't have a history of falling out of the sky.by losing a wing even at 5-10,000 hrs of air time.If it was a stall-spin, I wonder if the 15 Degree elevator stop was installed? ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryMcFarland" Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 5:45 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil > > > This aircraft had many mods that were intended to bring a light aircraft > into much faster operating speeds and weights than > the controls and linkages provided for the standard 601. Nice looking, > but bold mods that could put safety issues up front. > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > Craig Payne wrote: >> >> *> * I wonder why he didn't pull the chute. Maybe he though he could >> recover the plane on time or got incapacitated. >> >> ** >> >> *I thought that one report said that the pilot and mechanic died. The >> mechanic could have pulled the chute.* >> >> * * >> >> *Also speaking of modifications, the plane linked to appears to have wet >> wing:* >> >> * * >> >> *http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/fotos/24-03-2007/Partes%20do%20Zodiac%20429.jpg* >> >> * * >> >> *-- Craig* >> >> * * > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:25 PM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil You are right, there was passenger on board. The picture in the link shows the BRS compartment, maybe it was just the compartment but the BRS might have not be installed yet. We will eventually know. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom Craig Payne wrote: > I wonder why he didn't pull the chute. Maybe he though he could recover the plane on time or got incapacitated. I thought that one report said that the pilot and mechanic died. The mechanic could have pulled the chute. Also speaking of modifications, the plane linked to appears to have wet wing: http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/fotos/24-03-2007/Partes%20do%20Zodiac%20429.jpg -- Craig ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:39 PM PST US From: Kevin Bonds Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil Doesn't seem they were using avex rivets either. What's up with these? http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/fotos/rebites-nota2.jpg Kevin Bonds MHerder wrote: > > http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/ > > Take a look at this link, I don't speak spanish/portugese but it appears that the 1 1/2" pieces likely used the (presumably) used for the spar were 6351 T6. Is this correct? I just kind of stumbled on this when looking at the ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:35 PM PST US From: Frank Probst Subject: Zenith-List: First flight I took up my 601 hd taildragger for the first time today. Flies really nic e. A lot faster then the ultralights I'm used to flying. The left wing is a little heavy but most people report this. It will probably take 2 or 3 days for my adrenalin levels to come back down. I put over 2 hours on the zodiac today. It also handles excellent for a taildragger. Like it's on r ails going down the runway. It does have a tendency to float forever when coming in. I think I will try to lower my idle a bit to help. Thank's for the help on this list. I was mostly a lurker but I used the se arch engine a lot to answer any questuions I had. Larry's web site was als o a great resource. Frank Probst _________________________________________________________________ Try Chicktionary, a game that tests how many words you can form from the le tters given. Find this and more puzzles at Live Search Games! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/207 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:27 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: First flight From: "cookwithgas" Congratulations Frank. I know it is a great feeling and the smile will be hard to wipe away for a few days. Have fun and be safe, Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181642#181642 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:54 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First flight Congratulations!!! Jerry do no archive ---- Frank Probst wrote: > > I took up my 601 hd taildragger for the first time today. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:59 PM PST US From: Cndmovn Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil Just looked on the Emhart website and the rivets they manufacture are POP brand rivets that according to the website are not specified for aviation, but instead RV's and boats..... *Typical Applications* - Air bags - Appliances - Overhead doors - Truck trailers - Acoustical ceiling - Personal watercraft - Overhead lighting - RVs The website is: http://www.emhart.com/products/pop/rivets.asp Not sure if they were used in the plane, but they should not have been. On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 10:11 PM, Kevin Bonds wrote: > > Doesn't seem they were using avex rivets either. What's up with these? > http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/fotos/rebites-nota2.jpg > > Kevin Bonds > > MHerder wrote: > > > michaelherder@beckgroup.com> > > > > http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/ > > > > Take a look at this link, I don't speak spanish/portugese but it appears > > that the 1 1/2" pieces likely used the (presumably) used for the spar were > > 6351 T6. Is this correct? I just kind of stumbled on this when looking at > > the > > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:17 PM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First flight Congratulations, Frank! Good luck with your flight test program. Terry At 02:23 AM 5/7/2008 +0000, you wrote: >I took up my 601 hd taildragger for the first time today. Flies really >nice. A lot faster then the ultralights I'm used to flying. The left >wing is a little heavy but most people report this. It will probably take >2 or 3 days for my adrenalin levels to come back down. I put over 2 hours >on the zodiac today. It also handles excellent for a taildragger. Like >it's on rails going down the runway. It does have a tendency to float >forever when coming in. I think I will try to lower my idle a bit to help. >Thank's for the help on this list. I was mostly a lurker but I used the >search engine a lot to answer any questuions I had. Larry's web site was >also a great resource. > >Frank Probst Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:08 PM PST US From: ihab.awad@gmail.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil On 5/6/08, Cndmovn wrote: > > Just looked on the Emhart website and the rivets they manufacture are POP > brand rivets that according to the website are not specified for aviation, > but instead RV's and boats..... That in and of itself is not an issue -- it may or may not be a problem. Sonex (and afaik the RV-12, and maybe even also the Rans S-19) use stainless steel Cherry "N" rivets, which seem like basically the same thing as the POP rivets. I tried to look up the part numbers from the pictured receipt on Google, but found no useful hits. So I can't tell what material the rivets are made from. If the rivets were aluminum body/aluminum mandrel, for example, *that* would be a big issue! Ihab -- Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:08 PM PST US From: "Jeff " Subject: RE: Zenith-List: First flight Do not archive Congratulations Frank! I agree that the search engine is a great tool to find an answer to a question that you know has been asked before by others. I'm looking forward to that adrenalin high soon too. Jeff Davidson _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frank Probst Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:24 PM Subject: Zenith-List: First flight I took up my 601 hd taildragger for the first time today. Flies really nice. A lot faster then the ultralights I'm used to flying. The left wing is a little heavy but most people report this. It will probably take 2 or 3 days for my adrenalin levels to come back down. I put over 2 hours on the zodiac today. It also handles excellent for a taildragger. Like it's on rails going down the runway. It does have a tendency to float forever when coming in. I think I will try to lower my idle a bit to help. Thank's for the help on this list. I was mostly a lurker but I used the search engine a lot to answer any questuions I had. Larry's web site was also a great resource. Frank Probst _____ Sign in today. When you sign in to Windows Live Messenger you could win $1000 a day until May 12th. Learn more at SignInAndWIN.ca ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:03 PM PST US From: LHusky@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First flight Congrats Frank! That is great!! Larry Husky N667H (Reserved) In a message dated 5/6/2008 7:27:20 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, fprobst@HOTMAIL.COM writes: I took up my 601 hd taildragger for the first time today. Flies really nice. A lot faster then the ultralights I'm used to flying. The left wing is a little heavy but most people report this. It will probably take 2 or 3 days for my adrenalin levels to come back down. I put over 2 hours on the zodiac today. It also handles excellent for a taildragger. Like it's on rails going down the runway. It does have a tendency to float forever when coming in. I think I will try to lower my idle a bit to help. Thank's for the help on this list. I was mostly a lurker but I used the search engine a lot to answer any questuions I had. Larry's web site was also a great resource. Frank Probst ____________________________________ Sign in today. When you sign in to Windows Live Messenger you could win $1000 a day until May 12th. _Learn more at SignInAndWIN.ca_ (http://g.msn.ca/ca55/209) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:57 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil From: "moorecomp" All, With all the questions regarding the materials used, on top of that, take a look at the placard that was on the panel: http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/fotos/20-04-2008/p3280012.jpg It reads; "Permitted aerobatics basic only. Never exceed +4/-4 G" -4 G with substandard materials pretty much guarantees a structural failure. Slippery airframe, sexy look, high time ag pilot, aerobatics, possible substandard materials=2 people dead. Sad day for all. Best regards, Craig Moore A&P Mancelona, MI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181664#181664 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:28 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil From: "TxDave" Hey Larry M., Evidently, Zenith did not consider the modifications inappropriate. Pictures of the AirFox aircraft are featured in the 601XL photo galleries on the ZAC Web site . http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo104.html Sebastien Heintz himself attended their rudder workshop and took the photos posted on this page: http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-workshop-brazil.html As far as the rivets being suspect...if you read the LARGE print on Aircraft Spruce's (or any other supplier's) listing for Avex rivets, you'll see they are considered to be "non-structural". The first step in solving a problem is to admit that there is a problem. How many people have to die before we admit there just might be a possibility that a problem exists. Notice I said possibility! Dave Clay Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181668#181668 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.