Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:46 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Andrewlieser)
2. 05:02 AM - Re: First flight (n801bh@netzero.com)
3. 05:20 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (steveadams)
4. 06:05 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (William Dominguez)
5. 06:15 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Frank Roskind)
6. 06:20 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (William Dominguez)
7. 06:26 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Jay Maynard)
8. 06:59 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Carlos Sa)
9. 07:12 AM - Re: First flight (David Barth)
10. 07:20 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Frank Roskind)
11. 07:35 AM - Re: First flight (LarryMcFarland)
12. 08:03 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (LarryMcFarland)
13. 09:52 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (ashontz)
14. 10:27 AM - Re: First flight (Gary Gower)
15. 10:46 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (William Dominguez)
16. 10:56 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (PatrickW)
17. 11:30 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Iberplanes IGL)
18. 11:34 AM - Re: First flight (Frank Probst)
19. 11:36 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Iberplanes IGL)
20. 11:42 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Andrewlieser)
21. 11:43 AM - Re: First flight (Iberplanes IGL)
22. 11:45 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Andrewlieser)
23. 11:45 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (n801bh@netzero.com)
24. 11:51 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Gig Giacona)
25. 11:53 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Andrewlieser)
26. 11:54 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Kevin Bonds)
27. 12:04 PM - First flight (Beckman, Rick)
28. 12:10 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Frank Roskind)
29. 12:23 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Jay Maynard)
30. 12:57 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (William Dominguez)
31. 01:06 PM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Gig Giacona)
32. 01:09 PM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (moorecomp)
33. 01:11 PM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Gig Giacona)
34. 01:13 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Cndmovn)
35. 01:29 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (ihab.awad@gmail.com)
36. 01:34 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (ihab.awad@gmail.com)
37. 06:57 PM - I need to replace my elevator skin. (William Dominguez)
38. 07:20 PM - Aerobatics? (dstasch)
39. 07:30 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Peter Franke)
40. 07:55 PM - Re: Aerobatics? (Bruce Johnson)
41. 07:55 PM - Re: First flight (Ron Lendon)
42. 08:03 PM - Re: I need to replace my elevator skin. (Ron Lendon)
43. 08:22 PM - Re: Aerobatics? (TxDave)
44. 08:59 PM - Re: I need to replace my elevator skin. (Tim Juhl)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
Dave, I too am ready to admit there is a POSSIBILITY that there may be something
wrong. My logic being that before I decided to build a Zodiac I researched
accident data from everywhere I could on many designs (and found that every airplane/manufacturer/designer
or experimental) has experienced losses at some point
and this I found to be inherent to our hobby. However none of the designs
I researched have had fatal accidents reported with what seems to be this alarming
of frequency. If the problem is the builder/pilot/materials one would
also have to assume that these rogue builders also exist with other manufacturers/designs
as well, yet this type of accident frequency does not bear itself
in those designs. I hope and pray for the safety of all on this board that this
is not the case and that the Zodiac is the airplane we all believe it to be
structurally but right now I have to look at this and say hmmmmmm. Just my opinion
right now.
--------
Andrew Lieser
S/N 6-7045
http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181676#181676
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| Subject: | Re: First flight |
Congrat to you,,,,,,
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Frank Probst <fprobst@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
I took up my 601 hd taildragger for the first time today. Flies really
nice. A lot faster then the ultralights I'm used to flying. The left w
ing is a little heavy but most people report this. It will probably tak
e 2 or 3 days for my adrenalin levels to come back down. I put over 2 h
ours on the zodiac today. It also handles excellent for a taildragger.
Like it's on rails going down the runway. It does have a tendency to f
loat forever when coming in. I think I will try to lower my idle a bit
to help.
Thank's for the help on this list. I was mostly a lurker but I used the
search engine a lot to answer any questuions I had. Larry's web site w
as also a great resource. Frank Probst
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
Boy, I must have missed something. Admittedly my Portugese is very rusty, and there's
not much to go on, but I didn't see anything about a break-up, and we're
already focusing on the aluminum and rivets used in the construction as a cause?
Sounds to me like he stalled it in a steep turn, entered a spin, and didn't
recover. Perhaps the modifications did have something to do with the stall/spin
behavior of the plane, but the rivets???
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181680#181680
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
Very well said Andrew. If you look at other designs with same or higher numbers
of planes flying (Sonex, 701, 601HD/S, KR), you don't see not even a single case
of wing structural failure. Except with the RVs, but in all cases of RVs wing
failures, the NTSB where able to conclude through metallurgical examination
that the pilot exceeded maximum gs. There where no "Structural failure of the
wing for undetermined reasons". Furthermore, it is my understanding that Vans
Aircraft did produce some changes to beef up the wing. It is also my understanding
that cases of RVs wing failure hasn't happened since.
I keep building my XL because I'm pretty confident that whatever it is that is
causing these accidents, the source of the problem and a solution will be found
either by Zenith, NTSB, Independent analysis, a foreign government accident
investigation or a mix of these.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
Dave, I too am ready to admit there is a POSSIBILITY that there may be something
wrong. My logic being that before I decided to build a Zodiac I researched
accident data from everywhere I could on many designs (and found that every airplane/manufacturer/designer
or experimental) has experienced losses at some point
and this I found to be inherent to our hobby. However none of the designs
I researched have had fatal accidents reported with what seems to be this alarming
of frequency. If the problem is the builder/pilot/materials one would
also have to assume that these rogue builders also exist with other manufacturers/designs
as well, yet this type of accident frequency does not bear itself
in those designs. I hope and pray for the safety of all on this board that this
is not the case and that the Zodiac is the airplane we all believe it to be
structurally but right now I have to look at this and say hmmmmmm. Just my opinion
right now.
--------
Andrew Lieser
S/N 6-7045
http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181676#181676
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
All the conjecture about structurl failure seems to ignore the report-The p
lane seems to have been in a spin or spiral. A spin is not likely to impos
e high stresses on the structure, although a bad recovery might, but there
was no recovery described. A spiral could result in structural failure as
the turn tightens, but there was still no report of a failure, and further,
the reason for entry to a fatal spiral while in plain view of the ground s
eems elusive. Given that the plane had entered clouds, it is more likely t
hat the plane entered an inadvertent spin due to disorientation. If any de
sign defect would seem to have a role, it might be the size of the rudder,
if the pilot was unable to apply sufficient rudder to exit the spin, but th
ere is little data to support or refute that conjecture. I would point out
that the Alarus comes with a bigger rudder for those who would like to spi
n the plane. None of this is on point for other accidents involving struct
ural failure, except the one in Britain where the pilot entered clouds and
exited with a structural failure. There is a simple way to mitigate the po
tential risk of this kind of accident- don't enter the clouds. Materials s
eem irrelevant, unless it can be shown that a material failure led to a los
s of control.> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil> From: mo
orecomp@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 22:14:31 -0700> To: zenith-list@ma
hoo.com>> > All,> > With all the questions regarding the materials used, on
top of that, take a look at the placard that was on the panel:> > http://p
ortal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/fotos/20-04-2008/p3280012.jpg> > It
reads; "Permitted aerobatics basic only. Never exceed +4/-4 G"> > -4 G with
substandard materials pretty much guarantees a structural failure.> > Slip
pery airframe, sexy look, high time ag pilot, aerobatics, possible substand
ard materials=2 people dead. Sad day for all.> > Best regards,> > Craig M
oore A&P> Mancelona, MI> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://for
======================> > >
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
True, there is no mention of in-flight break-up anywhere so far. But the fact that
this was an agricultural pilot with 16K hours of flying experience who could
not recover from a spin at 3,500 feet in a plane with recent history of wing
failures, seem to have created some suspicion. But as you say, the modifications
could have prevented the pilot to recover from the spin.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
Boy, I must have missed something. Admittedly my Portugese is very rusty, and there's
not much to go on, but I didn't see anything about a break-up, and we're
already focusing on the aluminum and rivets used in the construction as a cause?
Sounds to me like he stalled it in a steep turn, entered a spin, and didn't
recover. Perhaps the modifications did have something to do with the stall/spin
behavior of the plane, but the rivets???
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181680#181680
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 06:02:33AM -0700, William Dominguez wrote:
> I keep building my XL because I'm pretty confident that whatever it is
> that is causing these accidents, the source of the problem and a solution
> will be found either by Zenith, NTSB, Independent analysis, a foreign
> government accident investigation or a mix of these.
This is exactly my thought on the subject. Someone will figure out the
problem, and we'll get a fix - whether that fix is structural, training, or
operational.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
None of the reports I've read so far mentions weather.
Carlos
Do not archive
On 5/7/08, Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 06:02:33AM -0700, William Dominguez wrote:
> > I keep building my XL because I'm pretty confident that whatever it is
> > that is causing these accidents, the source of the problem and a solution
> > will be found either by Zenith, NTSB, Independent analysis, a foreign
> > government accident investigation or a mix of these.
>
> This is exactly my thought on the subject. Someone will figure out the
> problem, and we'll get a fix - whether that fix is structural, training, or
> operational.
> --
> Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
> http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
> Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
> AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
>
>
--
Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com
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| Subject: | Re: First flight |
Congratulations Frank. You gott a be proud. That
project was a lot of work and now your are FLYING. Way
to go.
David
--- Frank Probst <fprobst@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I took up my 601 hd taildragger for the first time
> today. Flies really nice. A lot faster then the
> ultralights I'm used to flying.
David Barth
601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done?
Working on Wings
www.ch601.org
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
My understanding of an early report was that the plane entered a cloud. I
have deleted the ppost, so I cannot confirm this.> Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 07
:55:36 -0600> From: carlossa52@gmail.com> To: zenith-list@matronics.com> Su
bject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil> > --> Zenith-List mes
sage posted by: "Carlos Sa" <carlossa52@gmail.com>> > None of the reports I
've read so far mentions weather.> Carlos> Do not archive> > > On 5/7/08, J
ay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com> wrote:> > --> Zenith-List message posted
by: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>> >> > On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 06:0
2:33AM -0700, William Dominguez wrote:> > > I keep building my XL because I
'm pretty confident that whatever it is> > > that is causing these accident
s, the source of the problem and a solution> > > will be found either by Ze
nith, NTSB, Independent analysis, a foreign> > > government accident invest
igation or a mix of these.> >> > This is exactly my thought on the subject.
Someone will figure out the> > problem, and we'll get a fix - whether that
fix is structural, training, or> > operational.> > --> > Jay Maynard, K5ZC
http://www.conmicro.com> > http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tron
guy.net> > Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)> > AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55Z
C (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)> >> >> >> >> >> > -- > Sent from Gmai
=============> > >
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| Subject: | Re: First flight |
Congratulations Frank,
One of the best things is hearing of your successful first flight.
This 601 will have your endorphins flowing for quite a while.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Frank Probst wrote:
> I took up my 601 hd taildragger for the first time today. Flies
> really nice. A lot faster then the ultralights I'm used to flying.
> The left wing is a little heavy but most people report this. It will
> probably take 2 or 3 days for my adrenalin levels to come back down.
> I put over 2 hours on the zodiac today. It also handles excellent for
> a taildragger. Like it's on rails going down the runway. It does
> have a tendency to float forever when coming in. I think I will try
> to lower my idle a bit to help.
> Thank's for the help on this list. I was mostly a lurker but I used
> the search engine a lot to answer any questuions I had. Larry's web
> site was also a great resource.
>
> Frank Probst
> *
> *
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
Hi guys,
The website construction pictures of the highly modified 601 show wet
wings that could create weight management problems in flight. The site also
showed flush rivets being installed and filler being used over the wave
created by them. Probably a moot point with regard to the crash, but
the aircraft
was boldly modified with the same enthusiasm of an automobile
customizer. I was impressed with the looks and the speed implied by the
cabin modifications,
but the rest of the components, rudder pivots, cables and linkages could
easily played into this crash if the plane was being flown hard.
Zenith can't police anyone that departs the plans and construction
design details to build a "neat revised version of the 601" and there
were plenty of comments
that this was not a wise thing for them to do, let alone providing
offerings of a "kit with these revisions". What it was about bold
pilots probably applies to bold
builders that depart from the original design.
I'd advocate that you stay safe by keeping faith with the original
Zenith plans and materials. The rivets specified by Zenith may not meet
Aerospace requirements,
but they offer consistency in performance and installation for the design
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
TxDave wrote:
>
> Hey Larry M.,
>
> Evidently, Zenith did not consider the modifications inappropriate. Pictures
of the AirFox aircraft are featured in the 601XL photo galleries on the ZAC Web
site .
>
> http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo104.html
>
> Sebastien Heintz himself attended their rudder workshop and took the photos posted
on this page:
>
> http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-workshop-brazil.html
>
>
> As far as the rivets being suspect...if you read the LARGE print on Aircraft
Spruce's (or any other supplier's) listing for Avex rivets, you'll see they are
considered to be "non-structural".
>
> The first step in solving a problem is to admit that there is a problem. How
many people have to die before we admit there just might be a possibility that
a problem exists. Notice I said possibility!
>
> Dave Clay
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181668#181668
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
As far as the structural failure accidents, I'm thinking aileron flutter. Even
so, what did Vans do to beef up the RV wings?
[quote="William Dominguez"]Very well said Andrew. If you look at other designs
with same or higher numbers of planes flying (Sonex, 701, 601HD/S, KR), you don't
see not even a single case of wing structural failure. Except with the RVs,
but in all cases of RVs wing failures, the NTSB where able to conclude through
metallurgical examination that the pilot exceeded maximum gs. There where
no "Structural failure of the wing for undetermined reasons". Furthermore, it
is my understanding that Vans Aircraft did produce some changes to beef up the
wing. It is also my understanding that cases of RVs wing failure hasn't happened
since.
I keep building my XL because I'm pretty confident that whatever it is that is
causing these accidents, the source of the problem and a solution will be found
either by Zenith, NTSB, Independent analysis, a foreign government accident
investigation or a mix of these.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
Dave, I too am ready to admit there is a POSSIBILITY that there may be something
wrong. My logic being that before I decided to build a Zodiac I researched
accident data from everywhere I could on many designs (and found that every airplane/manufacturer/designer
or experimental) has experienced losses at some point
and this I found to be inherent to our hobby. However none of the designs
I researched have had fatal accidents reported with what seems to be this alarming
of frequency. If the problem is the builder/pilot/materials one would
also have to assume that these rogue builders also exist with other manufacturers/designs
as well, yet this type of accident
> [b]
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181723#181723
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| Subject: | Re: First flight |
Congratulations Frank!
Wat engine are you using? At what Idle RPM's?
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Do not archive
Frank Probst <fprobst@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
.hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE:
10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } I took up my 601 hd taildragger for the first
time today. Flies really nice. A lot faster then the ultralights I'm used
to flying. The left wing is a little heavy but most people report this. It
will probably take 2 or 3 days for my adrenalin levels to come back down. I
put over 2 hours on the zodiac today. It also handles excellent for a taildragger.
Like it's on rails going down the runway. It does have a tendency to
float forever when coming in. I think I will try to lower my idle a bit to help.
Thank's for the help on this list. I was mostly a lurker but I used the search
engine a lot to answer any questuions I had. Larry's web site was also a great
resource.
Frank Probst
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Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
I'm not familiar with the details, but it was mentioned by a poster of this list
a while back. Do a search for "wing failure" in the RV list for some discussions.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
As far as the structural failure accidents, I'm thinking aileron flutter. Even
so, what did Vans do to beef up the RV wings?
[quote="William Dominguez"]Very well said Andrew. If you look at other designs
with same or higher numbers of planes flying (Sonex, 701, 601HD/S, KR), you don't
see not even a single case of wing structural failure. Except with the RVs,
but in all cases of RVs wing failures, the NTSB where able to conclude through
metallurgical examination that the pilot exceeded maximum gs. There where
no "Structural failure of the wing for undetermined reasons". Furthermore, it
is my understanding that Vans Aircraft did produce some changes to beef up the
wing. It is also my understanding that cases of RVs wing failure hasn't happened
since.
I keep building my XL because I'm pretty confident that whatever it is that is
causing these accidents, the source of the problem and a solution will be found
either by Zenith, NTSB, Independent analysis, a foreign government accident
investigation or a mix of these.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
Dave, I too am ready to admit there is a POSSIBILITY that there may be something
wrong. My logic being that before I decided to build a Zodiac I researched
accident data from everywhere I could on many designs (and found that every airplane/manufacturer/designer
or experimental) has experienced losses at some point
and this I found to be inherent to our hobby. However none of the designs
I researched have had fatal accidents reported with what seems to be this alarming
of frequency. If the problem is the builder/pilot/materials one would
also have to assume that these rogue builders also exist with other manufacturers/designs
as well, yet this type of accident
> [b]
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
William Dominguez wrote:
> I'm pretty confident that whatever it is that is causing these accidents, the
source of the problem and a solution will be found either by Zenith, NTSB, Independent
analysis, a foreign government accident investigation or a mix of these.
We shouldn't hold out much hope for any of these groups finding a solution, with
the possible exception of Zenith. I would hope that they would be free to communicate
any findings without fear of legal backlash, instead of keeping mum.
We builders are as likely as anyone to figure out what's happening.
It's only a matter of time before somebody with a BRS actually survives a structural
failure and then is able to give a first hand account of what happened.
With the summer flying season upon us, I think we'll have a few more data points
by the time Oshkosh rolls around. Survivable data points, I pray...
William Dominguez wrote:
> Furthermore, it is my understanding that Vans Aircraft did produce some changes
to beef up the wing. It is also my understanding that cases of RVs wing failure
hasn't happened since.
Does anyone know what those changes were? How did the "old" Van's wing compare
with the current Zodiac XL wing...?
--------
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
was not installed. I have confirmed this today on a direct email to a
Brazilian friend.
----- Original Message -----
From: William Dominguez
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 1:41 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil
Also, it seems that this plane had a BRS chute:
http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/fotos/24-03-2007/images.ht
ml
Check the last picture of the first row, the one with the word SIRAC.
I think SIRAC is the initials the use for BRS.
If that is the case, I wonder why he didn't pull the chute. Maybe he
though he could recover the plane on time or got incapacitated.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
MHerder <michaelherder@beckgroup.com> wrote:
http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/
Take a look at this link, I don't speak spanish/portugese but it
appears that the 1 1/2" pieces likely used the (presumably) used for the
spar were 6351 T6. Is
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| Subject: | Re: First flight |
Thanks for all of the kind words. You guys are all great. I enjoy the soc
ial side of aviation as much as I do flying.
I had the idle set to 1900 rpm on my 912S rotax at static. When I was doin
g my approach the idle would not go below 2800 rpm. Today I went up for a
flight with the static idle set to 1400 rpm. This gave me a little over 20
00 rpm on approach. What a difference. No more floating and much easier t
o land. I just need to remember to let it idle a little higher then 1400rp
m when not air born. The gearbox does not like the lower rpm.
By the way this thing climbs like an elevator with the 912S. This morning
was cool with dense air. I could almost get 1400 fpm sometimes.
Frank Probst
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
no clouds were on the comments I=B4ve read.
Alberto Martin
Iberplanes IGL
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Espa=F1a
----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Roskind
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 3:12 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil
All the conjecture about structurl failure seems to ignore the
report-The plane seems to have been in a spin or spiral. A spin is not
likely to impose high stresses on the structure, although a bad recovery
might, but there was no recovery described. A spiral could result in
structural failure as the turn tightens, but there was still no report
of a failure, and further, the reason for entry to a fatal spiral while
in plain view of the ground seems elusive. Given that the plane had
entered clouds, it is more likely that the plane entered an inadvertent
spin due to disorientation. If any design defect would seem to have a
role, it might be the size of the rudder, if the pilot was unable to
apply sufficient rudder to exit the spin, but there is little data to
support or refute that conjecture. I would point out that the Alarus
comes with a bigger rudder for those who would like to spin the plane.
None of this is on point for other accidents involving structural
failure, except the one in Britain where the pilot entered clouds and
exited with a structural failure. There is a simple way to mitigate the
potential risk of this kind of accident- don't enter the clouds.
Materials seem irrelevant, unless it can be shown that a material
failure led to a loss of control.
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil
> From: moorecomp@yahoo.com
> Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 22:14:31 -0700
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>
>
> All,
>
> With all the questions regarding the materials used, on top of that,
take a look at the placard that was on the panel:
>
>
http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/fotos/20-04-2008/p3280012.
jpg
>
> It reads; "Permitted aerobatics basic only. Never exceed +4/-4 G"
>
> -4 G with substandard materials pretty much guarantees a structural
failure.
>
> Slippery airframe, sexy look, high time ag pilot, aerobatics,
possible substandard materials=2 people dead. Sad day for all.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Craig Moore A&P
> Mancelona, MI
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181664#181664
>
>
>
>
>
> =====================
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
I've been looking around the internet here because I to would be interested to
know what Vans did to beef up there wing and found an old RV-3 accident report
that was actually quite thorough and it relates to a sequence of wing failures
they had with the RV-3 at that time and the integrity of Vans to recognize these
failures as result in part because of the design as well as provide a solution
(I believe CH would do exactly the same if there is a flaw discovered).
Here is the link if anyone is interested:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id 001211X09658&ntsbno=FTW98FA145&akey=1
Also let me preface this by saying "I am not suggesting anything" and "this is
purely just for comparison" but I found it interesting that the new RV-12 wing
has 13 ribs per wing, more than the Zodiac XL yet they have very similar specs
(XL wing span 27 ft, RV-12 is 26'8ft / XL wing area 132 SQF, RV'12 is 127SQF,
XL wing loading is 9.85 lbs psf, RV-12 is 10.4 lbs psf). Again this is just
for comparison and my own inquizitive mind that is all.
Of all this I do believe that the folks at Zenith will figure this out and I too
will continue to build.
--------
Andrew Lieser
S/N 6-7045
http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser
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| Subject: | Re: First flight |
Congrats on your achievement,
Enjoy !!
Alberto Martin
Iberplanes IGL
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Espaa
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Barth" <davids601xl@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First flight
>
> Congratulations Frank. You gott a be proud. That
> project was a lot of work and now your are FLYING. Way
> to go.
>
> David
>
>
> --- Frank Probst <fprobst@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I took up my 601 hd taildragger for the first time
>> today. Flies really nice. A lot faster then the
>> ultralights I'm used to flying.
>
>
> David Barth
> 601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done?
> Working on Wings
> www.ch601.org
>
>
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
Link to the picture of the Vans wing if anyone is interested.
http://picasaweb.google.com/JimCone1941/RV12ConstructionPhotos/photo#5191820553241954290
--------
Andrew Lieser
S/N 6-7045
http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181753#181753
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
I didn't see the "entered a cloud" in any of the translations. That comm
ent came from one poster and where he dug that up is beyond me.
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Frank Roskind <frankroskind@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
All the conjecture about structurl failure seems to ignore the report-Th
e plane seems to have been in a spin or spiral. A spin is not likely to
impose high stresses on the structure, although a bad recovery might, b
ut there was no recovery described. A spiral could result in structural
failure as the turn tightens, but there was still no report of a failur
e, and further, the reason for entry to a fatal spiral while in plain vi
ew of the ground seems elusive. Given that the plane had entered clouds
, it is more likely that the plane entered an inadvertent spin due to di
sorientation. If any design defect would seem to have a role, it might
be the size of the rudder, if the pilot was unable to apply sufficient r
udder to exit the spin, but there is little data to support or refute th
at conjecture. I would point out that the Alarus comes with a bigger ru
dder for those who would like to spin the plane. None of this is on poi
nt for other accidents involving structural failure, except the one in B
ritain where the pilot entered clouds and exited with a structural failu
re. There is a simple way to mitigate the potential risk of this kind o
f accident- don't enter the clouds. Materials seem irrelevant, unless i
t can be shown that a material failure led to a loss of control.
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil
> From: moorecomp@yahoo.com
> Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 22:14:31 -0700
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>
>
> All,
>
> With all the questions regarding the materials used, on top of that, t
ake a look at the placard that was on the panel:
>
> http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/fotos/20-04-2008/p32800
12.jpg
>
> It reads; "Permitted aerobatics basic only. Never exceed +4/-4 G"
>
> -4 G with substandard materials pretty much guarantees a structural fa
ilure.
>
> Slippery airframe, sexy look, high time ag pilot, aerobatics, possible
substandard materials=2 people dead. Sad day for all.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Craig Moore A&P
> Mancelona, MI
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181664#181664
>
>
>
>
>
> =====================
>
>
>
Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. IM anytime y
ou're online.
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
That's a very different design than the XL wing so I wouldn't put a lot into comparing
spar counts. With the main spar that far back, as compared with the 601
wing, I'd be willing to bet the loads are alot different.
Andrewlieser wrote:
> Link to the picture of the Vans wing if anyone is interested.
> http://picasaweb.google.com/JimCone1941/RV12ConstructionPhotos/photo#5191820553241954290
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181755#181755
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
Thank Gig! I was just curios, being new to this admittedly I have a long way to
go still [Wink]
--------
Andrew Lieser
S/N 6-7045
http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181757#181757
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
I'm the one that brought up the rivets. I was not offering them as a
possible cause of anything. Just wondering why they are using them
instead of Avex. I'm intelligent enough to see that this accident
doesn't fit the profile thus far. Even if it did turn out that this
accident was a structural failure, It would not tell us much. I'm not
even sure why its being called a zodiac.
Kevin Bonds
steveadams wrote:
>
> Boy, I must have missed something. Admittedly my Portugese is very rusty, and
there's not much to go on, but I didn't see anything about a break-up, and we're
already focusing on the aluminum and rivets used in the construction as a
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That's awesome, Frank!! Congratulations!!
Rick
Do not
archive
Thanks for all of the kind words. You guys are all great. I enjoy the
social side of aviation as much as I do flying.
I had the idle set to 1900 rpm on my 912S rotax at static. When I was
doing my approach the idle would not go below 2800 rpm. Today I went up
for a flight with the static idle set to 1400 rpm. This gave me a
little over 2000 rpm on approach. What a difference. No more floating
and much easier to land. I just need to remember to let it idle a
little higher then 1400rpm when not air born. The gearbox does not like
the lower rpm.
By the way this thing climbs like an elevator with the 912S. This
morning was cool with dense air. I could almost get 1400 fpm sometimes.
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
Unfortunately my recollection is inaccurate and I apologize. It does seem
that a spin occurred in what I read, and no one takes issue with that recol
lection, apparently. I read something about a wet wing. It is possible to
have fuel tanks contribute to making a spin stable. That was a big proble
m with early Yankee AA-1's, although the fuel tank there was a tubular spar
, and the fuel went out to the wingtips in a spin. I would like to know wh
y the Alarus needs a larger rudder to be certified utility, and therefore e
ligible to spin in training. None of what I read about the Brazil crash su
ggests a wing failure, although a control failure would not be excludable.
If the pilot was an extremely experienced ag pilot it is extremely likely
he knew how to exit a spin, so my question is what things about the aircraf
t make a spin difficult to exit?
From: n801bh@netzero.comDate: Wed, 7 May 2008 18:41:31 +0000To: zenith-list
@matronics.comSubject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil
I didn't see the "entered a cloud" in any of the translations. That comment
came from one poster and where he dug that up is beyond me.
do not archive Ben HaasN801BHwww.haaspowerair.com-- Frank Roskind <frankros
kind@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:All the conjecture about structurl failure seems to
ignore the report-The plane seems to have been in a spin or spiral. A spi
n is not likely to impose high stresses on the structure, although a bad re
covery might, but there was no recovery described. A spiral could result i
n structural failure as the turn tightens, but there was still no report of
a failure, and further, the reason for entry to a fatal spiral while in pl
ain view of the ground seems elusive. Given that the plane had entered clo
uds, it is more likely that the plane entered an inadvertent spin due to di
sorientation. If any design defect would seem to have a role, it might be
the size of the rudder, if the pilot was unable to apply sufficient rudder
to exit the spin, but there is little data to support or refute that conjec
ture. I would point out that the Alarus comes with a bigger rudder for tho
se who would like to spin the plane. None of this is on point for other ac
cidents involving structural failure, except the one in Britain where the p
ilot entered clouds and exited with a structural failure. There is a simpl
e way to mitigate the potential risk of this kind of accident- don't enter
the clouds. Materials seem irrelevant, unless it can be shown that a mater
ial failure led to a loss of control.> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL
Down - Brazil> From: moorecomp@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 22:14:31 -
moorecomp" <moorecomp@yahoo.com>> > All,> > With all the questions regardin
g the materials used, on top of that, take a look at the placard that was o
n the panel:> > http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/fotos/20-04-
2008/p3280012.jpg> > It reads; "Permitted aerobatics basic only. Never exce
ed +4/-4 G"> > -4 G with substandard materials pretty much guarantees a str
uctural failure.> > Slippery airframe, sexy look, high time ag pilot, aerob
atics, possible substandard materials=2 people dead. Sad day for all.> >
Best regards,> > Craig Moore A&P> Mancelona, MI> > > > > Read this topic on
line here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181664#181664>
> > > > > =====================
=> > >
Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. IM anytime you'
re online.
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
tronics.com
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 11:48:58AM -0700, Gig Giacona wrote:
> That's a very different design than the XL wing so I wouldn't put a lot
> into comparing spar counts. With the main spar that far back, as compared
> with the 601 wing, I'd be willing to bet the loads are alot different.
Hm. I'm about to show my total ignorance of aircraft structural design, so
bear with me.
As I understand things, the ribs are there to transfer the loads from the
skin to the spar(s), as well as to stiffen the structure so that the
airfoil's shape is not deformed in flight. If the wing loading is
comparable, then if there are fewer ribs, each one would have to carry more
load, and there would be fewer, but higher, point loads along the spar. If
the spar is capable of dealing with those loads, then all is good. This
effect would be mitigated somewhat by the load applied directly to the spar
by the skin, but how much?
Assuming that the strength of each rib is not an issue, what benefits are
gained by using more ribs? Is Van just being more conservative, or is he
using lighter ribs (thus necessitating more to carry the same load), or
what?
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
Anyone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe more ribs also increase the wing's
torsional rigidity.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 11:48:58AM -0700, Gig Giacona wrote:
> That's a very different design than the XL wing so I wouldn't put a lot
> into comparing spar counts. With the main spar that far back, as compared
> with the 601 wing, I'd be willing to bet the loads are alot different.
Hm. I'm about to show my total ignorance of aircraft structural design, so
bear with me.
As I understand things, the ribs are there to transfer the loads from the
skin to the spar(s), as well as to stiffen the structure so that the
airfoil's shape is not deformed in flight. If the wing loading is
comparable, then if there are fewer ribs, each one would have to carry more
load, and there would be fewer, but higher, point loads along the spar. If
the spar is capable of dealing with those loads, then all is good. This
effect would be mitigated somewhat by the load applied directly to the spar
by the skin, but how much?
Assuming that the strength of each rib is not an issue, what benefits are
gained by using more ribs? Is Van just being more conservative, or is he
using lighter ribs (thus necessitating more to carry the same load), or
what?
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
I have not a clue Jay but the ribs certainly look smaller in the vertical axis
than the 601XL ribs. This would change the strength of any given rib one way or
the other.
To my thinking, ribs are cheap. If adding a few was really a structurally significant
help I'd be real surprised that Zenith wouldn't have already done it.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181768#181768
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
[quote="William Dominguez"]True, there is no mention of in-flight break-up anywhere
so far. But the fact that this was an agricultural pilot with 16K hours of
flying experience who could not recover from a spin at 3,500 feet in a plane
with recent history of wing failures, seem to have created some suspicion. But
as you say, the modifications could have prevented the pilot to recover from
the spin.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
All,
Just a reminder that this is the second unrecoverable spin recently. The other
was saved by a BRS. Juan said he went and did a spin and it flew itself out, but
in both of the recent cases there were 2 people onboard. I don't recommend
Juan goes out and tries it with 2 people.
http://www.centredaily.com/business/story/558643.html
Best regards,
Craig Moore
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
The only place clouds were mentioned was in the fourth message in the thread.
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=43275
The nice thing about the forum is it never goes away.
Iberplanes wrote:
> no clouds were on the comments Ive read.
>
> Alberto Martin
> Iberplanes IGL
> http://www.iberplanes.es (http://www.iberplanes.es)
> Igualada - Barcelona - Espaa
>
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181771#181771
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
It definitely will increase the torsional rigidity, but you need to be sure
the design is ready to handle the additional rigidity. You may make it more
rigid but that might overstress another part of the design. I have used
the example in the past of building construction. People sometimes increase
the beam strength of a floor to handle and increased load, but they do not
consider that the footings are not designed to handle the increased weight.
The floor will not collapse, but the building will sink.
You always need to think about the overall design limits and not just one
element of it. It is all a ballet of physics.
Paul
On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 3:54 PM, William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Anyone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe more ribs also increase the
> wing's torsional rigidity.
>
> William Dominguez
> Zodiac 601XL Plans
> Miami Florida
> http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
>
> *Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>* wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 11:48:58AM -0700, Gig Giacona wrote:
> > That's a very different design than the XL wing so I wouldn't put a lot
> > into comparing spar counts. With the main spar that far back, as
> compared
> > with the 601 wing, I'd be willing to bet the loads are alot different.
>
> Hm. I'm about to show my total ignorance of aircraft structural design, so
> bear with me.
>
> As I understand things, the ribs are there to transfer the loads from the
> skin to the spar(s), as well as to stiffen the structure so that the
> airfoil's shape is not deformed in flight. If the wing loading is
> comparable, then if there are fewer ribs, each one would have to carry
> more
> load, and there would be fewer, but higher, point loads along the spar. If
> the spar is capable of dealing with those loads, then all is good. This
> effect would be mitigated somewhat by the load applied directly to the
> spar
> by the skin, but how much?
>
> Assuming that the strength of each rib is not an issue, what benefits are
> gained by using more ribs? Is Van just being more conservative, or is he
> using lighter ribs (thus necessitating more to carry the same load), or
> what?
> --
> Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
> http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
> Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
> AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
On 5/7/08, William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Anyone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe more ribs also increase the
> wing's torsional rigidity.
No -- ribs stiffen the skin and maintain the shape at each station, and
transfer lift loads uniformly to the wing box. The torsional rigidity of the
wing is a function only by the area enclosed by the wing box and the
thickness of the skin around that area.
Extra ribs could increase the *ultimate* strength by delaying buckling of
the skin.
Ihab
--
Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
I should also add --
On 5/7/08, ihab.awad@gmail.com <ihab.awad@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Extra ribs could increase the *ultimate* strength by delaying buckling of
> the skin.
If all you want to do is delay skin buckling, then adding some stiffeners to
the skin is probably a more lightweight solution than adding more ribs.
Stiffeners could be spanwise, i.e., stringers --
http://www.donsbushcaddy.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/RPittsWing.jpg
or they can be chordwise, as seen in the wing of a Glastar --
http://www.glasairaviation.com/images/glastar/jswing2.jpg
Ihab
--
Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA
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| Subject: | I need to replace my elevator skin. |
My most expensive mistake so far. When I was drilling my elevator skin to the hinge,
I didn't use a drill bit stopper so the bit scratched the front side of
the skin below almost every hole.
What are my alternatives to replace the elevator skin without remaking all the
other parts that are drilled to match the damaged skin?
So far my plan is to use a hole duplicator in every hole located near the edges
where the duplicator could reach. Then only remake the parts where the duplicator
cannot reach (2 internal ribs).
Is this an acceptable way to replace the skin?
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
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Hello,
I'm planning to purchase the 601xl rudder kit next month but the one thing bothering
me about if I'm choosing the right plane for me is it's lack of aerobatic
ability.
I chose the 601xl for the sport pilot category, metal construction, side-by-side
seating, cost, looks, there is a factory in America (nothing against foreign
it just sounds expensive :)) and I'm sure a few other things that I can't think
of right now. And of course this great list where I can come to ask all my
dumb questions :)
I can't find a plane more intriguing to me to build than the 601lx but I have a
bit of an addiction for aerobatics. I'm talking about just light stuff loops,
rolls, spins etc...
I've looked at few other kits:
Kitfox - Non metal and I kind of prefer low wing
Century - looks nice, not much info. I can't even find it on the web again.
RV-12 - Not finished yet and I couldn't find much about it's aerobatic abilities.
Rans S-19 - looks nice but a little expensive
Sonex - Not sure why but not the plane for me
Cri Cri - not really but I think this is a cool looking little plane
http://flight.cz/cricri/english/cri-cri-photos-pictures-secchi.php
My plan now is to build a 601xl for x-country flights and taking family and friends
for rides, then perhaps renting an Aerobat occasionally for my loop and spin
cravings.
I understand the trade-offs and that you can't have it ALL in one plane, but I
wish to make sure I didn't overlook another plane that would be a better fit for
me.
Any suggestions or links you may have would be greatly appreciated. If not, I
can't wait to order the rudder kit :)
Take care,
David
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181832#181832
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
As far as rib spacing is concerned, I had a look over a Robin 2160 just the
other weekend and using my eyeball measurement, the rib spacing is pretty
well the same as on the XL. It took both of us by surprise when we saw that.
Just take a look at some of the maneuvers aerobat schools put them through.
Mind you, it is very easy to see that the two have the same father, the
similarities in design are very apparent.
Just my $0.02
Peter
" I found it interesting that the new RV-12 wing has 13 ribs per wing, more
than the Zodiac XL yet they have very similar specs (XL wing span 27 ft,
RV-12 is 26'8ft / XL wing area 132 SQF, RV'12 is 127SQF, XL wing loading is
9.85 lbs psf, RV-12 is 10.4 lbs psf). Again this is just for comparison and
my own inquizitive mind that is all."
Message 40
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You may want to think again about the "not sure" one.
http://youtube.com/watch?vLMEho9DrU
-Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of dstasch
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:17 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Aerobatics?
Hello,
I'm planning to purchase the 601xl rudder kit next month but the one thing
bothering me about if I'm choosing the right plane for me is it's lack of
aerobatic ability.
I chose the 601xl for the sport pilot category, metal construction,
side-by-side seating, cost, looks, there is a factory in America (nothing
against foreign it just sounds expensive :)) and I'm sure a few other things
that I can't think of right now. And of course this great list where I can
come to ask all my dumb questions :)
I can't find a plane more intriguing to me to build than the 601lx but I
have a bit of an addiction for aerobatics. I'm talking about just light
stuff loops, rolls, spins etc...
I've looked at few other kits:
Kitfox - Non metal and I kind of prefer low wing
Century - looks nice, not much info. I can't even find it on the web again.
RV-12 - Not finished yet and I couldn't find much about it's aerobatic
abilities.
Rans S-19 - looks nice but a little expensive
Sonex - Not sure why but not the plane for me
Cri Cri - not really but I think this is a cool looking little plane
http://flight.cz/cricri/english/cri-cri-photos-pictures-secchi.php
My plan now is to build a 601xl for x-country flights and taking family and
friends for rides, then perhaps renting an Aerobat occasionally for my loop
and spin cravings.
I understand the trade-offs and that you can't have it ALL in one plane, but
I wish to make sure I didn't overlook another plane that would be a better
fit for me.
Any suggestions or links you may have would be greatly appreciated. If not,
I can't wait to order the rudder kit :)
Take care,
David
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181832#181832
Checked by AVG.
8:39 AM
Checked by AVG.
8:39 AM
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| Subject: | Re: First flight |
Congratulations on your new flying machine, ain't life great!
do not archive
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181838#181838
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: I need to replace my elevator skin. |
William,
Can you unfold or split the skin and use it as a template for the replacement skin?
Doing that might be faster and more accurate.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181841#181841
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David,
The Sonex is definitely worth looking at if you're into aerobatics. I won't say
any more since this is a Zenith list. Feel free to contact me off list.
Dave Clay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181850#181850
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: I need to replace my elevator skin. |
how bad are the scratches? Do you have a picture?
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181861#181861
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