---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/07/08: 44 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:46 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Andrewlieser) 2. 05:02 AM - Re: First flight (n801bh@netzero.com) 3. 05:20 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (steveadams) 4. 06:05 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (William Dominguez) 5. 06:15 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Frank Roskind) 6. 06:20 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (William Dominguez) 7. 06:26 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Jay Maynard) 8. 06:59 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Carlos Sa) 9. 07:12 AM - Re: First flight (David Barth) 10. 07:20 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Frank Roskind) 11. 07:35 AM - Re: First flight (LarryMcFarland) 12. 08:03 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (LarryMcFarland) 13. 09:52 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (ashontz) 14. 10:27 AM - Re: First flight (Gary Gower) 15. 10:46 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (William Dominguez) 16. 10:56 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (PatrickW) 17. 11:30 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Iberplanes IGL) 18. 11:34 AM - Re: First flight (Frank Probst) 19. 11:36 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Iberplanes IGL) 20. 11:42 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Andrewlieser) 21. 11:43 AM - Re: First flight (Iberplanes IGL) 22. 11:45 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Andrewlieser) 23. 11:45 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (n801bh@netzero.com) 24. 11:51 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Gig Giacona) 25. 11:53 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Andrewlieser) 26. 11:54 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Kevin Bonds) 27. 12:04 PM - First flight (Beckman, Rick) 28. 12:10 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Frank Roskind) 29. 12:23 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Jay Maynard) 30. 12:57 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (William Dominguez) 31. 01:06 PM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Gig Giacona) 32. 01:09 PM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (moorecomp) 33. 01:11 PM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Gig Giacona) 34. 01:13 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Cndmovn) 35. 01:29 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (ihab.awad@gmail.com) 36. 01:34 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (ihab.awad@gmail.com) 37. 06:57 PM - I need to replace my elevator skin. (William Dominguez) 38. 07:20 PM - Aerobatics? (dstasch) 39. 07:30 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Peter Franke) 40. 07:55 PM - Re: Aerobatics? (Bruce Johnson) 41. 07:55 PM - Re: First flight (Ron Lendon) 42. 08:03 PM - Re: I need to replace my elevator skin. (Ron Lendon) 43. 08:22 PM - Re: Aerobatics? (TxDave) 44. 08:59 PM - Re: I need to replace my elevator skin. (Tim Juhl) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:46:31 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil From: "Andrewlieser" Dave, I too am ready to admit there is a POSSIBILITY that there may be something wrong. My logic being that before I decided to build a Zodiac I researched accident data from everywhere I could on many designs (and found that every airplane/manufacturer/designer or experimental) has experienced losses at some point and this I found to be inherent to our hobby. However none of the designs I researched have had fatal accidents reported with what seems to be this alarming of frequency. If the problem is the builder/pilot/materials one would also have to assume that these rogue builders also exist with other manufacturers/designs as well, yet this type of accident frequency does not bear itself in those designs. I hope and pray for the safety of all on this board that this is not the case and that the Zodiac is the airplane we all believe it to be structurally but right now I have to look at this and say hmmmmmm. Just my opinion right now. -------- Andrew Lieser S/N 6-7045 http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181676#181676 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:03 AM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First flight Congrat to you,,,,,, do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- Frank Probst wrote: I took up my 601 hd taildragger for the first time today. Flies really nice. A lot faster then the ultralights I'm used to flying. The left w ing is a little heavy but most people report this. It will probably tak e 2 or 3 days for my adrenalin levels to come back down. I put over 2 h ours on the zodiac today. It also handles excellent for a taildragger. Like it's on rails going down the runway. It does have a tendency to f loat forever when coming in. I think I will try to lower my idle a bit to help. Thank's for the help on this list. I was mostly a lurker but I used the search engine a lot to answer any questuions I had. Larry's web site w as also a great resource. Frank Probst Sign in today. When you sign in to Windows Live Messenger you could win ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== _____________________________________________________________ Boost your productivity with new office software. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4s9zEF9EJHa21fyOruM lnPPCUtcCShAFzBqqNxZs4i9H6ALg/?count=1234567890 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:20:17 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil From: "steveadams" Boy, I must have missed something. Admittedly my Portugese is very rusty, and there's not much to go on, but I didn't see anything about a break-up, and we're already focusing on the aluminum and rivets used in the construction as a cause? Sounds to me like he stalled it in a steep turn, entered a spin, and didn't recover. Perhaps the modifications did have something to do with the stall/spin behavior of the plane, but the rivets??? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181680#181680 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:52 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil Very well said Andrew. If you look at other designs with same or higher numbers of planes flying (Sonex, 701, 601HD/S, KR), you don't see not even a single case of wing structural failure. Except with the RVs, but in all cases of RVs wing failures, the NTSB where able to conclude through metallurgical examination that the pilot exceeded maximum gs. There where no "Structural failure of the wing for undetermined reasons". Furthermore, it is my understanding that Vans Aircraft did produce some changes to beef up the wing. It is also my understanding that cases of RVs wing failure hasn't happened since. I keep building my XL because I'm pretty confident that whatever it is that is causing these accidents, the source of the problem and a solution will be found either by Zenith, NTSB, Independent analysis, a foreign government accident investigation or a mix of these. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom Dave, I too am ready to admit there is a POSSIBILITY that there may be something wrong. My logic being that before I decided to build a Zodiac I researched accident data from everywhere I could on many designs (and found that every airplane/manufacturer/designer or experimental) has experienced losses at some point and this I found to be inherent to our hobby. However none of the designs I researched have had fatal accidents reported with what seems to be this alarming of frequency. If the problem is the builder/pilot/materials one would also have to assume that these rogue builders also exist with other manufacturers/designs as well, yet this type of accident frequency does not bear itself in those designs. I hope and pray for the safety of all on this board that this is not the case and that the Zodiac is the airplane we all believe it to be structurally but right now I have to look at this and say hmmmmmm. Just my opinion right now. -------- Andrew Lieser S/N 6-7045 http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181676#181676 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:41 AM PST US From: Frank Roskind Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil All the conjecture about structurl failure seems to ignore the report-The p lane seems to have been in a spin or spiral. A spin is not likely to impos e high stresses on the structure, although a bad recovery might, but there was no recovery described. A spiral could result in structural failure as the turn tightens, but there was still no report of a failure, and further, the reason for entry to a fatal spiral while in plain view of the ground s eems elusive. Given that the plane had entered clouds, it is more likely t hat the plane entered an inadvertent spin due to disorientation. If any de sign defect would seem to have a role, it might be the size of the rudder, if the pilot was unable to apply sufficient rudder to exit the spin, but th ere is little data to support or refute that conjecture. I would point out that the Alarus comes with a bigger rudder for those who would like to spi n the plane. None of this is on point for other accidents involving struct ural failure, except the one in Britain where the pilot entered clouds and exited with a structural failure. There is a simple way to mitigate the po tential risk of this kind of accident- don't enter the clouds. Materials s eem irrelevant, unless it can be shown that a material failure led to a los s of control.> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil> From: mo orecomp@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 22:14:31 -0700> To: zenith-list@ma hoo.com>> > All,> > With all the questions regarding the materials used, on top of that, take a look at the placard that was on the panel:> > http://p ortal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/fotos/20-04-2008/p3280012.jpg> > It reads; "Permitted aerobatics basic only. Never exceed +4/-4 G"> > -4 G with substandard materials pretty much guarantees a structural failure.> > Slip pery airframe, sexy look, high time ag pilot, aerobatics, possible substand ard materials=2 people dead. Sad day for all.> > Best regards,> > Craig M oore A&P> Mancelona, MI> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://for ======================> > > _________________________________________________________________ Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refr esh_messenger_052008 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:19 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil True, there is no mention of in-flight break-up anywhere so far. But the fact that this was an agricultural pilot with 16K hours of flying experience who could not recover from a spin at 3,500 feet in a plane with recent history of wing failures, seem to have created some suspicion. But as you say, the modifications could have prevented the pilot to recover from the spin. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom Boy, I must have missed something. Admittedly my Portugese is very rusty, and there's not much to go on, but I didn't see anything about a break-up, and we're already focusing on the aluminum and rivets used in the construction as a cause? Sounds to me like he stalled it in a steep turn, entered a spin, and didn't recover. Perhaps the modifications did have something to do with the stall/spin behavior of the plane, but the rivets??? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181680#181680 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:42 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 06:02:33AM -0700, William Dominguez wrote: > I keep building my XL because I'm pretty confident that whatever it is > that is causing these accidents, the source of the problem and a solution > will be found either by Zenith, NTSB, Independent analysis, a foreign > government accident investigation or a mix of these. This is exactly my thought on the subject. Someone will figure out the problem, and we'll get a fix - whether that fix is structural, training, or operational. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:00 AM PST US From: "Carlos Sa" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil None of the reports I've read so far mentions weather. Carlos Do not archive On 5/7/08, Jay Maynard wrote: > > On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 06:02:33AM -0700, William Dominguez wrote: > > I keep building my XL because I'm pretty confident that whatever it is > > that is causing these accidents, the source of the problem and a solution > > will be found either by Zenith, NTSB, Independent analysis, a foreign > > government accident investigation or a mix of these. > > This is exactly my thought on the subject. Someone will figure out the > problem, and we'll get a fix - whether that fix is structural, training, or > operational. > -- > Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com > http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net > Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) > AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) > > -- Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:12:13 AM PST US From: David Barth Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First flight Congratulations Frank. You gott a be proud. That project was a lot of work and now your are FLYING. Way to go. David --- Frank Probst wrote: > > I took up my 601 hd taildragger for the first time > today. Flies really nice. A lot faster then the > ultralights I'm used to flying. David Barth 601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done? Working on Wings www.ch601.org Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:07 AM PST US From: Frank Roskind Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil My understanding of an early report was that the plane entered a cloud. I have deleted the ppost, so I cannot confirm this.> Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 07 :55:36 -0600> From: carlossa52@gmail.com> To: zenith-list@matronics.com> Su bject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil> > --> Zenith-List mes sage posted by: "Carlos Sa" > > None of the reports I 've read so far mentions weather.> Carlos> Do not archive> > > On 5/7/08, J ay Maynard wrote:> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jay Maynard > >> > On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 06:0 2:33AM -0700, William Dominguez wrote:> > > I keep building my XL because I 'm pretty confident that whatever it is> > > that is causing these accident s, the source of the problem and a solution> > > will be found either by Ze nith, NTSB, Independent analysis, a foreign> > > government accident invest igation or a mix of these.> >> > This is exactly my thought on the subject. Someone will figure out the> > problem, and we'll get a fix - whether that fix is structural, training, or> > operational.> > --> > Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com> > http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tron guy.net> > Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)> > AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55Z C (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)> >> >> >> >> >> > -- > Sent from Gmai =============> > > _________________________________________________________________ With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh _mobile_052008 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:00 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First flight Congratulations Frank, One of the best things is hearing of your successful first flight. This 601 will have your endorphins flowing for quite a while. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Frank Probst wrote: > I took up my 601 hd taildragger for the first time today. Flies > really nice. A lot faster then the ultralights I'm used to flying. > The left wing is a little heavy but most people report this. It will > probably take 2 or 3 days for my adrenalin levels to come back down. > I put over 2 hours on the zodiac today. It also handles excellent for > a taildragger. Like it's on rails going down the runway. It does > have a tendency to float forever when coming in. I think I will try > to lower my idle a bit to help. > Thank's for the help on this list. I was mostly a lurker but I used > the search engine a lot to answer any questuions I had. Larry's web > site was also a great resource. > > Frank Probst > * > * ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:18 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil Hi guys, The website construction pictures of the highly modified 601 show wet wings that could create weight management problems in flight. The site also showed flush rivets being installed and filler being used over the wave created by them. Probably a moot point with regard to the crash, but the aircraft was boldly modified with the same enthusiasm of an automobile customizer. I was impressed with the looks and the speed implied by the cabin modifications, but the rest of the components, rudder pivots, cables and linkages could easily played into this crash if the plane was being flown hard. Zenith can't police anyone that departs the plans and construction design details to build a "neat revised version of the 601" and there were plenty of comments that this was not a wise thing for them to do, let alone providing offerings of a "kit with these revisions". What it was about bold pilots probably applies to bold builders that depart from the original design. I'd advocate that you stay safe by keeping faith with the original Zenith plans and materials. The rivets specified by Zenith may not meet Aerospace requirements, but they offer consistency in performance and installation for the design Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com TxDave wrote: > > Hey Larry M., > > Evidently, Zenith did not consider the modifications inappropriate. Pictures of the AirFox aircraft are featured in the 601XL photo galleries on the ZAC Web site . > > http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo104.html > > Sebastien Heintz himself attended their rudder workshop and took the photos posted on this page: > > http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-workshop-brazil.html > > > As far as the rivets being suspect...if you read the LARGE print on Aircraft Spruce's (or any other supplier's) listing for Avex rivets, you'll see they are considered to be "non-structural". > > The first step in solving a problem is to admit that there is a problem. How many people have to die before we admit there just might be a possibility that a problem exists. Notice I said possibility! > > Dave Clay > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181668#181668 > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:44 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil From: "ashontz" As far as the structural failure accidents, I'm thinking aileron flutter. Even so, what did Vans do to beef up the RV wings? [quote="William Dominguez"]Very well said Andrew. If you look at other designs with same or higher numbers of planes flying (Sonex, 701, 601HD/S, KR), you don't see not even a single case of wing structural failure. Except with the RVs, but in all cases of RVs wing failures, the NTSB where able to conclude through metallurgical examination that the pilot exceeded maximum gs. There where no "Structural failure of the wing for undetermined reasons". Furthermore, it is my understanding that Vans Aircraft did produce some changes to beef up the wing. It is also my understanding that cases of RVs wing failure hasn't happened since. I keep building my XL because I'm pretty confident that whatever it is that is causing these accidents, the source of the problem and a solution will be found either by Zenith, NTSB, Independent analysis, a foreign government accident investigation or a mix of these. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom Dave, I too am ready to admit there is a POSSIBILITY that there may be something wrong. My logic being that before I decided to build a Zodiac I researched accident data from everywhere I could on many designs (and found that every airplane/manufacturer/designer or experimental) has experienced losses at some point and this I found to be inherent to our hobby. However none of the designs I researched have had fatal accidents reported with what seems to be this alarming of frequency. If the problem is the builder/pilot/materials one would also have to assume that these rogue builders also exist with other manufacturers/designs as well, yet this type of accident > [b] -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181723#181723 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:42 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First flight Congratulations Frank! Wat engine are you using? At what Idle RPM's? Saludos Gary Gower. Do not archive Frank Probst wrote: .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } I took up my 601 hd taildragger for the first time today. Flies really nice. A lot faster then the ultralights I'm used to flying. The left wing is a little heavy but most people report this. It will probably take 2 or 3 days for my adrenalin levels to come back down. I put over 2 hours on the zodiac today. It also handles excellent for a taildragger. Like it's on rails going down the runway. It does have a tendency to float forever when coming in. I think I will try to lower my idle a bit to help. Thank's for the help on this list. I was mostly a lurker but I used the search engine a lot to answer any questuions I had. Larry's web site was also a great resource. Frank Probst --------------------------------- Sign in today. When you sign in to Windows Live Messenger you could win $1000 a day until May 12th. Learn more at SignInAndWIN.ca --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:05 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil I'm not familiar with the details, but it was mentioned by a poster of this list a while back. Do a search for "wing failure" in the RV list for some discussions. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom As far as the structural failure accidents, I'm thinking aileron flutter. Even so, what did Vans do to beef up the RV wings? [quote="William Dominguez"]Very well said Andrew. If you look at other designs with same or higher numbers of planes flying (Sonex, 701, 601HD/S, KR), you don't see not even a single case of wing structural failure. Except with the RVs, but in all cases of RVs wing failures, the NTSB where able to conclude through metallurgical examination that the pilot exceeded maximum gs. There where no "Structural failure of the wing for undetermined reasons". Furthermore, it is my understanding that Vans Aircraft did produce some changes to beef up the wing. It is also my understanding that cases of RVs wing failure hasn't happened since. I keep building my XL because I'm pretty confident that whatever it is that is causing these accidents, the source of the problem and a solution will be found either by Zenith, NTSB, Independent analysis, a foreign government accident investigation or a mix of these. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom Dave, I too am ready to admit there is a POSSIBILITY that there may be something wrong. My logic being that before I decided to build a Zodiac I researched accident data from everywhere I could on many designs (and found that every airplane/manufacturer/designer or experimental) has experienced losses at some point and this I found to be inherent to our hobby. However none of the designs I researched have had fatal accidents reported with what seems to be this alarming of frequency. If the problem is the builder/pilot/materials one would also have to assume that these rogue builders also exist with other manufacturers/designs as well, yet this type of accident > [b] -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181723#181723 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:41 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil From: "PatrickW" William Dominguez wrote: > I'm pretty confident that whatever it is that is causing these accidents, the source of the problem and a solution will be found either by Zenith, NTSB, Independent analysis, a foreign government accident investigation or a mix of these. We shouldn't hold out much hope for any of these groups finding a solution, with the possible exception of Zenith. I would hope that they would be free to communicate any findings without fear of legal backlash, instead of keeping mum. We builders are as likely as anyone to figure out what's happening. It's only a matter of time before somebody with a BRS actually survives a structural failure and then is able to give a first hand account of what happened. With the summer flying season upon us, I think we'll have a few more data points by the time Oshkosh rolls around. Survivable data points, I pray... William Dominguez wrote: > Furthermore, it is my understanding that Vans Aircraft did produce some changes to beef up the wing. It is also my understanding that cases of RVs wing failure hasn't happened since. Does anyone know what those changes were? How did the "old" Van's wing compare with the current Zodiac XL wing...? -------- Patrick 601XL/Corvair N63PZ (reserved) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181735#181735 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:08 AM PST US From: "Iberplanes IGL" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil was not installed. I have confirmed this today on a direct email to a Brazilian friend. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Dominguez To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 1:41 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil Also, it seems that this plane had a BRS chute: http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/fotos/24-03-2007/images.ht ml Check the last picture of the first row, the one with the word SIRAC. I think SIRAC is the initials the use for BRS. If that is the case, I wonder why he didn't pull the chute. Maybe he though he could recover the plane on time or got incapacitated. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom MHerder wrote: http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/ Take a look at this link, I don't speak spanish/portugese but it appears that the 1 1/2" pieces likely used the (presumably) used for the spar were 6351 T6. Is ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:22 AM PST US From: Frank Probst Subject: Zenith-List: Re: First flight Thanks for all of the kind words. You guys are all great. I enjoy the soc ial side of aviation as much as I do flying. I had the idle set to 1900 rpm on my 912S rotax at static. When I was doin g my approach the idle would not go below 2800 rpm. Today I went up for a flight with the static idle set to 1400 rpm. This gave me a little over 20 00 rpm on approach. What a difference. No more floating and much easier t o land. I just need to remember to let it idle a little higher then 1400rp m when not air born. The gearbox does not like the lower rpm. By the way this thing climbs like an elevator with the 912S. This morning was cool with dense air. I could almost get 1400 fpm sometimes. Frank Probst _________________________________________________________________ Try Chicktionary, a game that tests how many words you can form from the le tters given. Find this and more puzzles at Live Search Games! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/207 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:36:07 AM PST US From: "Iberplanes IGL" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil no clouds were on the comments I=B4ve read. Alberto Martin Iberplanes IGL http://www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Espa=F1a ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank Roskind To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 3:12 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil All the conjecture about structurl failure seems to ignore the report-The plane seems to have been in a spin or spiral. A spin is not likely to impose high stresses on the structure, although a bad recovery might, but there was no recovery described. A spiral could result in structural failure as the turn tightens, but there was still no report of a failure, and further, the reason for entry to a fatal spiral while in plain view of the ground seems elusive. Given that the plane had entered clouds, it is more likely that the plane entered an inadvertent spin due to disorientation. If any design defect would seem to have a role, it might be the size of the rudder, if the pilot was unable to apply sufficient rudder to exit the spin, but there is little data to support or refute that conjecture. I would point out that the Alarus comes with a bigger rudder for those who would like to spin the plane. None of this is on point for other accidents involving structural failure, except the one in Britain where the pilot entered clouds and exited with a structural failure. There is a simple way to mitigate the potential risk of this kind of accident- don't enter the clouds. Materials seem irrelevant, unless it can be shown that a material failure led to a loss of control. > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil > From: moorecomp@yahoo.com > Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 22:14:31 -0700 > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > > > All, > > With all the questions regarding the materials used, on top of that, take a look at the placard that was on the panel: > > http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/fotos/20-04-2008/p3280012. jpg > > It reads; "Permitted aerobatics basic only. Never exceed +4/-4 G" > > -4 G with substandard materials pretty much guarantees a structural failure. > > Slippery airframe, sexy look, high time ag pilot, aerobatics, possible substandard materials=2 people dead. Sad day for all. > > Best regards, > > Craig Moore A&P > Mancelona, MI > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181664#181664 > > > > > > ===================== > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. IM anytime you're online. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:42 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil From: "Andrewlieser" I've been looking around the internet here because I to would be interested to know what Vans did to beef up there wing and found an old RV-3 accident report that was actually quite thorough and it relates to a sequence of wing failures they had with the RV-3 at that time and the integrity of Vans to recognize these failures as result in part because of the design as well as provide a solution (I believe CH would do exactly the same if there is a flaw discovered). Here is the link if anyone is interested: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id 001211X09658&ntsbno=FTW98FA145&akey=1 Also let me preface this by saying "I am not suggesting anything" and "this is purely just for comparison" but I found it interesting that the new RV-12 wing has 13 ribs per wing, more than the Zodiac XL yet they have very similar specs (XL wing span 27 ft, RV-12 is 26'8ft / XL wing area 132 SQF, RV'12 is 127SQF, XL wing loading is 9.85 lbs psf, RV-12 is 10.4 lbs psf). Again this is just for comparison and my own inquizitive mind that is all. Of all this I do believe that the folks at Zenith will figure this out and I too will continue to build. -------- Andrew Lieser S/N 6-7045 http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181752#181752 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:15 AM PST US From: "Iberplanes IGL" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First flight Congrats on your achievement, Enjoy !! Alberto Martin Iberplanes IGL http://www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Espaa ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Barth" Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 4:09 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First flight > > Congratulations Frank. You gott a be proud. That > project was a lot of work and now your are FLYING. Way > to go. > > David > > > --- Frank Probst wrote: > >> >> I took up my 601 hd taildragger for the first time >> today. Flies really nice. A lot faster then the >> ultralights I'm used to flying. > > > David Barth > 601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done? > Working on Wings > www.ch601.org > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:16 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil From: "Andrewlieser" Link to the picture of the Vans wing if anyone is interested. http://picasaweb.google.com/JimCone1941/RV12ConstructionPhotos/photo#5191820553241954290 -------- Andrew Lieser S/N 6-7045 http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181753#181753 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:20 AM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil I didn't see the "entered a cloud" in any of the translations. That comm ent came from one poster and where he dug that up is beyond me. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- Frank Roskind wrote: All the conjecture about structurl failure seems to ignore the report-Th e plane seems to have been in a spin or spiral. A spin is not likely to impose high stresses on the structure, although a bad recovery might, b ut there was no recovery described. A spiral could result in structural failure as the turn tightens, but there was still no report of a failur e, and further, the reason for entry to a fatal spiral while in plain vi ew of the ground seems elusive. Given that the plane had entered clouds , it is more likely that the plane entered an inadvertent spin due to di sorientation. If any design defect would seem to have a role, it might be the size of the rudder, if the pilot was unable to apply sufficient r udder to exit the spin, but there is little data to support or refute th at conjecture. I would point out that the Alarus comes with a bigger ru dder for those who would like to spin the plane. None of this is on poi nt for other accidents involving structural failure, except the one in B ritain where the pilot entered clouds and exited with a structural failu re. There is a simple way to mitigate the potential risk of this kind o f accident- don't enter the clouds. Materials seem irrelevant, unless i t can be shown that a material failure led to a loss of control. > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil > From: moorecomp@yahoo.com > Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 22:14:31 -0700 > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > > > All, > > With all the questions regarding the materials used, on top of that, t ake a look at the placard that was on the panel: > > http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/fotos/20-04-2008/p32800 12.jpg > > It reads; "Permitted aerobatics basic only. Never exceed +4/-4 G" > > -4 G with substandard materials pretty much guarantees a structural fa ilure. > > Slippery airframe, sexy look, high time ag pilot, aerobatics, possible substandard materials=2 people dead. Sad day for all. > > Best regards, > > Craig Moore A&P > Mancelona, MI > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181664#181664 > > > > > > ===================== > > > Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. IM anytime y ou're online. ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== === _____________________________________________________________ Stay connected on the go with a full featured tablet PC. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4s9WvII3HbE6KSPpWKX wUmbZtZRGfxK58vEGa3HE0PV2Wq5E/?count=1234567890 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:51:31 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil From: "Gig Giacona" That's a very different design than the XL wing so I wouldn't put a lot into comparing spar counts. With the main spar that far back, as compared with the 601 wing, I'd be willing to bet the loads are alot different. Andrewlieser wrote: > Link to the picture of the Vans wing if anyone is interested. > http://picasaweb.google.com/JimCone1941/RV12ConstructionPhotos/photo#5191820553241954290 -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181755#181755 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:47 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil From: "Andrewlieser" Thank Gig! I was just curios, being new to this admittedly I have a long way to go still [Wink] -------- Andrew Lieser S/N 6-7045 http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181757#181757 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:13 AM PST US From: Kevin Bonds Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil I'm the one that brought up the rivets. I was not offering them as a possible cause of anything. Just wondering why they are using them instead of Avex. I'm intelligent enough to see that this accident doesn't fit the profile thus far. Even if it did turn out that this accident was a structural failure, It would not tell us much. I'm not even sure why its being called a zodiac. Kevin Bonds steveadams wrote: > > Boy, I must have missed something. Admittedly my Portugese is very rusty, and there's not much to go on, but I didn't see anything about a break-up, and we're already focusing on the aluminum and rivets used in the construction as a ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:54 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: First flight From: "Beckman, Rick" That's awesome, Frank!! Congratulations!! Rick Do not archive Thanks for all of the kind words. You guys are all great. I enjoy the social side of aviation as much as I do flying. I had the idle set to 1900 rpm on my 912S rotax at static. When I was doing my approach the idle would not go below 2800 rpm. Today I went up for a flight with the static idle set to 1400 rpm. This gave me a little over 2000 rpm on approach. What a difference. No more floating and much easier to land. I just need to remember to let it idle a little higher then 1400rpm when not air born. The gearbox does not like the lower rpm. By the way this thing climbs like an elevator with the 912S. This morning was cool with dense air. I could almost get 1400 fpm sometimes. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:10:10 PM PST US From: Frank Roskind Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil Unfortunately my recollection is inaccurate and I apologize. It does seem that a spin occurred in what I read, and no one takes issue with that recol lection, apparently. I read something about a wet wing. It is possible to have fuel tanks contribute to making a spin stable. That was a big proble m with early Yankee AA-1's, although the fuel tank there was a tubular spar , and the fuel went out to the wingtips in a spin. I would like to know wh y the Alarus needs a larger rudder to be certified utility, and therefore e ligible to spin in training. None of what I read about the Brazil crash su ggests a wing failure, although a control failure would not be excludable. If the pilot was an extremely experienced ag pilot it is extremely likely he knew how to exit a spin, so my question is what things about the aircraf t make a spin difficult to exit? From: n801bh@netzero.comDate: Wed, 7 May 2008 18:41:31 +0000To: zenith-list @matronics.comSubject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil I didn't see the "entered a cloud" in any of the translations. That comment came from one poster and where he dug that up is beyond me. do not archive Ben HaasN801BHwww.haaspowerair.com-- Frank Roskind wrote:All the conjecture about structurl failure seems to ignore the report-The plane seems to have been in a spin or spiral. A spi n is not likely to impose high stresses on the structure, although a bad re covery might, but there was no recovery described. A spiral could result i n structural failure as the turn tightens, but there was still no report of a failure, and further, the reason for entry to a fatal spiral while in pl ain view of the ground seems elusive. Given that the plane had entered clo uds, it is more likely that the plane entered an inadvertent spin due to di sorientation. If any design defect would seem to have a role, it might be the size of the rudder, if the pilot was unable to apply sufficient rudder to exit the spin, but there is little data to support or refute that conjec ture. I would point out that the Alarus comes with a bigger rudder for tho se who would like to spin the plane. None of this is on point for other ac cidents involving structural failure, except the one in Britain where the p ilot entered clouds and exited with a structural failure. There is a simpl e way to mitigate the potential risk of this kind of accident- don't enter the clouds. Materials seem irrelevant, unless it can be shown that a mater ial failure led to a loss of control.> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil> From: moorecomp@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 22:14:31 - moorecomp" > > All,> > With all the questions regardin g the materials used, on top of that, take a look at the placard that was o n the panel:> > http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/fotos/20-04- 2008/p3280012.jpg> > It reads; "Permitted aerobatics basic only. Never exce ed +4/-4 G"> > -4 G with substandard materials pretty much guarantees a str uctural failure.> > Slippery airframe, sexy look, high time ag pilot, aerob atics, possible substandard materials=2 people dead. Sad day for all.> > Best regards,> > Craig Moore A&P> Mancelona, MI> > > > > Read this topic on line here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181664#181664> > > > > > ===================== => > > Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. IM anytime you' re online. ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List tronics.com www.matronics.com/contribution _____________________________________________________________Stay connected on the go with a full featured tablet PC. Click now! _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live SkyDrive lets you share files with faraway friends. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refre sh_skydrive_052008 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:23:48 PM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 11:48:58AM -0700, Gig Giacona wrote: > That's a very different design than the XL wing so I wouldn't put a lot > into comparing spar counts. With the main spar that far back, as compared > with the 601 wing, I'd be willing to bet the loads are alot different. Hm. I'm about to show my total ignorance of aircraft structural design, so bear with me. As I understand things, the ribs are there to transfer the loads from the skin to the spar(s), as well as to stiffen the structure so that the airfoil's shape is not deformed in flight. If the wing loading is comparable, then if there are fewer ribs, each one would have to carry more load, and there would be fewer, but higher, point loads along the spar. If the spar is capable of dealing with those loads, then all is good. This effect would be mitigated somewhat by the load applied directly to the spar by the skin, but how much? Assuming that the strength of each rib is not an issue, what benefits are gained by using more ribs? Is Van just being more conservative, or is he using lighter ribs (thus necessitating more to carry the same load), or what? -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:23 PM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil Anyone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe more ribs also increase the wing's torsional rigidity. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 11:48:58AM -0700, Gig Giacona wrote: > That's a very different design than the XL wing so I wouldn't put a lot > into comparing spar counts. With the main spar that far back, as compared > with the 601 wing, I'd be willing to bet the loads are alot different. Hm. I'm about to show my total ignorance of aircraft structural design, so bear with me. As I understand things, the ribs are there to transfer the loads from the skin to the spar(s), as well as to stiffen the structure so that the airfoil's shape is not deformed in flight. If the wing loading is comparable, then if there are fewer ribs, each one would have to carry more load, and there would be fewer, but higher, point loads along the spar. If the spar is capable of dealing with those loads, then all is good. This effect would be mitigated somewhat by the load applied directly to the spar by the skin, but how much? Assuming that the strength of each rib is not an issue, what benefits are gained by using more ribs? Is Van just being more conservative, or is he using lighter ribs (thus necessitating more to carry the same load), or what? -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 01:06:51 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil From: "Gig Giacona" I have not a clue Jay but the ribs certainly look smaller in the vertical axis than the 601XL ribs. This would change the strength of any given rib one way or the other. To my thinking, ribs are cheap. If adding a few was really a structurally significant help I'd be real surprised that Zenith wouldn't have already done it. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181768#181768 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:52 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil From: "moorecomp" [quote="William Dominguez"]True, there is no mention of in-flight break-up anywhere so far. But the fact that this was an agricultural pilot with 16K hours of flying experience who could not recover from a spin at 3,500 feet in a plane with recent history of wing failures, seem to have created some suspicion. But as you say, the modifications could have prevented the pilot to recover from the spin. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom All, Just a reminder that this is the second unrecoverable spin recently. The other was saved by a BRS. Juan said he went and did a spin and it flew itself out, but in both of the recent cases there were 2 people onboard. I don't recommend Juan goes out and tries it with 2 people. http://www.centredaily.com/business/story/558643.html Best regards, Craig Moore Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181770#181770 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:02 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil From: "Gig Giacona" The only place clouds were mentioned was in the fourth message in the thread. http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=43275 The nice thing about the forum is it never goes away. Iberplanes wrote: > no clouds were on the comments Ive read. > > Alberto Martin > Iberplanes IGL > http://www.iberplanes.es (http://www.iberplanes.es) > Igualada - Barcelona - Espaa > > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181771#181771 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 01:13:29 PM PST US From: Cndmovn Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil It definitely will increase the torsional rigidity, but you need to be sure the design is ready to handle the additional rigidity. You may make it more rigid but that might overstress another part of the design. I have used the example in the past of building construction. People sometimes increase the beam strength of a floor to handle and increased load, but they do not consider that the footings are not designed to handle the increased weight. The floor will not collapse, but the building will sink. You always need to think about the overall design limits and not just one element of it. It is all a ballet of physics. Paul On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 3:54 PM, William Dominguez wrote: > Anyone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe more ribs also increase the > wing's torsional rigidity. > > William Dominguez > Zodiac 601XL Plans > Miami Florida > http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom > > *Jay Maynard * wrote: > > > On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 11:48:58AM -0700, Gig Giacona wrote: > > That's a very different design than the XL wing so I wouldn't put a lot > > into comparing spar counts. With the main spar that far back, as > compared > > with the 601 wing, I'd be willing to bet the loads are alot different. > > Hm. I'm about to show my total ignorance of aircraft structural design, so > bear with me. > > As I understand things, the ribs are there to transfer the loads from the > skin to the spar(s), as well as to stiffen the structure so that the > airfoil's shape is not deformed in flight. If the wing loading is > comparable, then if there are fewer ribs, each one would have to carry > more > load, and there would be fewer, but higher, point loads along the spar. If > the spar is capable of dealing with those loads, then all is good. This > effect would be mitigated somewhat by the load applied directly to the > spar > by the skin, but how much? > > Assuming that the strength of each rib is not an issue, what benefits are > gained by using more ribs? Is Van just being more conservative, or is he > using lighter ribs (thus necessitating more to carry the same load), or > what? > -- > Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com > http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net > Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) > AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:59 PM PST US From: ihab.awad@gmail.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil On 5/7/08, William Dominguez wrote: > > Anyone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe more ribs also increase the > wing's torsional rigidity. No -- ribs stiffen the skin and maintain the shape at each station, and transfer lift loads uniformly to the wing box. The torsional rigidity of the wing is a function only by the area enclosed by the wing box and the thickness of the skin around that area. Extra ribs could increase the *ultimate* strength by delaying buckling of the skin. Ihab -- Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:43 PM PST US From: ihab.awad@gmail.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil I should also add -- On 5/7/08, ihab.awad@gmail.com wrote: > > Extra ribs could increase the *ultimate* strength by delaying buckling of > the skin. If all you want to do is delay skin buckling, then adding some stiffeners to the skin is probably a more lightweight solution than adding more ribs. Stiffeners could be spanwise, i.e., stringers -- http://www.donsbushcaddy.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/RPittsWing.jpg or they can be chordwise, as seen in the wing of a Glastar -- http://www.glasairaviation.com/images/glastar/jswing2.jpg Ihab -- Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 06:57:45 PM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Zenith-List: I need to replace my elevator skin. My most expensive mistake so far. When I was drilling my elevator skin to the hinge, I didn't use a drill bit stopper so the bit scratched the front side of the skin below almost every hole. What are my alternatives to replace the elevator skin without remaking all the other parts that are drilled to match the damaged skin? So far my plan is to use a hole duplicator in every hole located near the edges where the duplicator could reach. Then only remake the parts where the duplicator cannot reach (2 internal ribs). Is this an acceptable way to replace the skin? William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:07 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Aerobatics? From: "dstasch" Hello, I'm planning to purchase the 601xl rudder kit next month but the one thing bothering me about if I'm choosing the right plane for me is it's lack of aerobatic ability. I chose the 601xl for the sport pilot category, metal construction, side-by-side seating, cost, looks, there is a factory in America (nothing against foreign it just sounds expensive :)) and I'm sure a few other things that I can't think of right now. And of course this great list where I can come to ask all my dumb questions :) I can't find a plane more intriguing to me to build than the 601lx but I have a bit of an addiction for aerobatics. I'm talking about just light stuff loops, rolls, spins etc... I've looked at few other kits: Kitfox - Non metal and I kind of prefer low wing Century - looks nice, not much info. I can't even find it on the web again. RV-12 - Not finished yet and I couldn't find much about it's aerobatic abilities. Rans S-19 - looks nice but a little expensive Sonex - Not sure why but not the plane for me Cri Cri - not really but I think this is a cool looking little plane http://flight.cz/cricri/english/cri-cri-photos-pictures-secchi.php My plan now is to build a 601xl for x-country flights and taking family and friends for rides, then perhaps renting an Aerobat occasionally for my loop and spin cravings. I understand the trade-offs and that you can't have it ALL in one plane, but I wish to make sure I didn't overlook another plane that would be a better fit for me. Any suggestions or links you may have would be greatly appreciated. If not, I can't wait to order the rudder kit :) Take care, David Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181832#181832 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:30 PM PST US From: "Peter Franke" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil As far as rib spacing is concerned, I had a look over a Robin 2160 just the other weekend and using my eyeball measurement, the rib spacing is pretty well the same as on the XL. It took both of us by surprise when we saw that. Just take a look at some of the maneuvers aerobat schools put them through. Mind you, it is very easy to see that the two have the same father, the similarities in design are very apparent. Just my $0.02 Peter " I found it interesting that the new RV-12 wing has 13 ribs per wing, more than the Zodiac XL yet they have very similar specs (XL wing span 27 ft, RV-12 is 26'8ft / XL wing area 132 SQF, RV'12 is 127SQF, XL wing loading is 9.85 lbs psf, RV-12 is 10.4 lbs psf). Again this is just for comparison and my own inquizitive mind that is all." ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:03 PM PST US From: "Bruce Johnson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Aerobatics? You may want to think again about the "not sure" one. http://youtube.com/watch?vLMEho9DrU -Bruce -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of dstasch Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:17 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Aerobatics? Hello, I'm planning to purchase the 601xl rudder kit next month but the one thing bothering me about if I'm choosing the right plane for me is it's lack of aerobatic ability. I chose the 601xl for the sport pilot category, metal construction, side-by-side seating, cost, looks, there is a factory in America (nothing against foreign it just sounds expensive :)) and I'm sure a few other things that I can't think of right now. And of course this great list where I can come to ask all my dumb questions :) I can't find a plane more intriguing to me to build than the 601lx but I have a bit of an addiction for aerobatics. I'm talking about just light stuff loops, rolls, spins etc... I've looked at few other kits: Kitfox - Non metal and I kind of prefer low wing Century - looks nice, not much info. I can't even find it on the web again. RV-12 - Not finished yet and I couldn't find much about it's aerobatic abilities. Rans S-19 - looks nice but a little expensive Sonex - Not sure why but not the plane for me Cri Cri - not really but I think this is a cool looking little plane http://flight.cz/cricri/english/cri-cri-photos-pictures-secchi.php My plan now is to build a 601xl for x-country flights and taking family and friends for rides, then perhaps renting an Aerobat occasionally for my loop and spin cravings. I understand the trade-offs and that you can't have it ALL in one plane, but I wish to make sure I didn't overlook another plane that would be a better fit for me. Any suggestions or links you may have would be greatly appreciated. If not, I can't wait to order the rudder kit :) Take care, David Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181832#181832 Checked by AVG. 8:39 AM Checked by AVG. 8:39 AM ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:41 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: First flight From: "Ron Lendon" Congratulations on your new flying machine, ain't life great! do not archive -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181838#181838 ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:17 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: I need to replace my elevator skin. From: "Ron Lendon" William, Can you unfold or split the skin and use it as a template for the replacement skin? Doing that might be faster and more accurate. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181841#181841 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:14 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aerobatics? From: "TxDave" David, The Sonex is definitely worth looking at if you're into aerobatics. I won't say any more since this is a Zenith list. Feel free to contact me off list. Dave Clay Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181850#181850 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:24 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: I need to replace my elevator skin. From: "Tim Juhl" how bad are the scratches? Do you have a picture? Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181861#181861 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.