Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:26 AM - Re: Aerobatics? (Andrewlieser)
2. 05:06 AM - Re: Re: I need to replace my elevator skin. (William Dominguez)
3. 05:21 AM - Re: Re: I need to replace my elevator skin. (William Dominguez)
4. 05:34 AM - Re: Re: I need to replace my elevator skin. (William Dominguez)
5. 05:47 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Juan Vega)
6. 05:48 AM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Juan Vega)
7. 05:50 AM - Re: Re: I need to replace my elevator skin. (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
8. 06:24 AM - Re: Aerobatics? (Gig Giacona)
9. 06:38 AM - Re: Re: I need to replace my elevator skin. (William Dominguez)
10. 06:48 AM - Re: Re: I need to replace my elevator skin. (David Barth)
11. 06:54 AM - Rudder Pedal connection quuestion. (Gig Giacona)
12. 07:04 AM - Re: Re: Aerobatics? (Bruce Johnson)
13. 08:35 AM - Re: Rudder Pedal connection quuestion. (DaveG601XL)
14. 08:53 AM - Re: Aerobatics? (Andrewlieser)
15. 09:16 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Scotsman)
16. 10:58 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (PatrickW)
17. 11:26 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (TxDave)
18. 11:52 AM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Gig Giacona)
19. 12:03 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Iberplanes IGL)
20. 01:10 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Kevin Bonds)
21. 02:04 PM - Re: Rudder Pedal connection quuestion. (Bryan Martin)
22. 02:26 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (James E. Lanier)
23. 02:31 PM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (n85ae)
24. 04:32 PM - Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders -- With Attachment! (Terry Phillips)
25. 04:44 PM - Re: Re: Aerobatics? (Paul Mulwitz)
26. 05:01 PM - Re: Aerobatics? (Dennis Shoup)
27. 05:28 PM - Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (leinad)
28. 05:49 PM - How many Gs are these maneuvers? (Sabrina)
29. 06:37 PM - Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? (leinad)
30. 06:45 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (Gary Gower)
31. 06:51 PM - Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? (n801bh@netzero.com)
32. 07:22 PM - Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil (William Dominguez)
33. 08:06 PM - Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders -- With Attachment! (David Lautenschlager)
Message 1
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David,
I've flown in several Sonex' and actually purchased a set of plans for one but
after much debate amongst myself I chose to go with the XL for the same reason
you plan on. While I agree the Sonex is better acrobatically you WILL get a
workout on any x country you would fly in one. They are very pitch sensitive
although fun. From a passenger stand point the XL easily excels beyond any shadow
of a doubt past the Sonex. I took my wife up in a Sonex (she's not a pilot,
only a passenger when I'm lucky) and she said it was way to unstable for her
to go anywhere with me, as is not the case with the XL. The RV 12 probably
will be a nice airplane but it appears as though VANS is shying away from builders
putting it together as an E-AB rather just an E-LSA so you might be limited
by that. E mail me if want any other info.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--------
Andrew Lieser
S/N 6-7045
http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181876#181876
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| Subject: | Re: I need to replace my elevator skin. |
Unfortunately. I don't have pictures. I will take pictures when I open the elevator.
For a while I entertained the idea of patching up the area as described
in the FAA book "Aircraft Inspections, Repairs & Alterations..." But another member
in this list had the same problem, he called Zenith and they recommended
him to change the skin. The material for the new skin is coming in my next shipment.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
how bad are the scratches? Do you have a picture?
Tim
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181861#181861
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| Subject: | Re: I need to replace my elevator skin. |
Yes, I can do that. I just have to ensure the bends will be in the exact same places
as the old.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
William,
Can you unfold or split the skin and use it as a template for the replacement skin?
Doing that might be faster and more accurate.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181841#181841
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| Subject: | Re: I need to replace my elevator skin. |
Yes, I can do that. I just have to ensure the bends will be in the exact same places
as the old.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
William,
Can you unfold or split the skin and use it as a template for the replacement skin?
Doing that might be faster and more accurate.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181841#181841
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
Its not an issue of to people or one. Its an issue of Aft CG. Alot of people
make the mistake of not minding their CG. If the plane is loaded with too much
in baggage, heck, all you need is twenty Lbs to the very rear on an Aft CG plane,
unless you unfassen you seat belt and hug the dash, she may not pull out
of a spin. This plane is very forgiving and well constructed, However one
must keeep in mind, God is forgiving as well, too a certain point. I think
the accidents or at least most of them will be attributable to pilot error in
some form or another. Or a flaw in the way it was constructed.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: moorecomp <moorecomp@yahoo.com>
>Sent: May 7, 2008 4:07 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil
>
>
>[quote="William Dominguez"]True, there is no mention of in-flight break-up anywhere
so far. But the fact that this was an agricultural pilot with 16K hours
of flying experience who could not recover from a spin at 3,500 feet in a plane
with recent history of wing failures, seem to have created some suspicion. But
as you say, the modifications could have prevented the pilot to recover from
the spin.
>
>William Dominguez
>Zodiac 601XL Plans
>Miami Florida
>http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
>
>
>All,
>
>Just a reminder that this is the second unrecoverable spin recently. The other
was saved by a BRS. Juan said he went and did a spin and it flew itself out,
but in both of the recent cases there were 2 people onboard. I don't recommend
Juan goes out and tries it with 2 people.
>
>http://www.centredaily.com/business/story/558643.html
>
>Best regards,
>
>Craig Moore
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181770#181770
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
that was me, my bad.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: "n801bh@netzero.com" <n801bh@netzero.com>
>Sent: May 7, 2008 2:41 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil
>
>I didn't see the "entered a cloud" in any of the translations. That comment came
from one poster and where he dug that up is beyond me.
>do not archive
>
>
>Ben Haas
>N801BH
>www.haaspowerair.com
>
>-- Frank Roskind <frankroskind@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>All the conjecture about structurl failure seems to ignore the report-The plane
seems to have been in a spin or spiral. A spin is not likely to impose high
stresses on the structure, although a bad recovery might, but there was no recovery
described. A spiral could result in structural failure as the turn tightens,
but there was still no report of a failure, and further, the reason for
entry to a fatal spiral while in plain view of the ground seems elusive. Given
that the plane had entered clouds, it is more likely that the plane entered
an inadvertent spin due to disorientation. If any design defect would seem to
have a role, it might be the size of the rudder, if the pilot was unable to
apply sufficient rudder to exit the spin, but there is little data to support
or refute that conjecture. I would point out that the Alarus comes with a bigger
rudder for those who would like to spin the plane. None of this is on point
for other accidents involving structural failure, except the one in Britain
where the pilot entered clouds and exited with a structural failure. There is
a simple way to mitigate the potential risk of this kind of accident- don't
enter the clouds. Materials seem irrelevant, unless it can be shown that a material
failure led to a loss of control.
>
>> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil
>> From: moorecomp@yahoo.com
>> Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 22:14:31 -0700
>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>>
>>
>> All,
>>
>> With all the questions regarding the materials used, on top of that, take a
look at the placard that was on the panel:
>>
>> http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/fotos/20-04-2008/p3280012.jpg
>>
>> It reads; "Permitted aerobatics basic only. Never exceed +4/-4 G"
>>
>> -4 G with substandard materials pretty much guarantees a structural failure.
>>
>> Slippery airframe, sexy look, high time ag pilot, aerobatics, possible substandard
materials=2 people dead. Sad day for all.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Craig Moore A&P
>> Mancelona, MI
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181664#181664
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> =====================
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. IM anytime you're
online.
>===================================================================================================================================================
>_____________________________________________________________
>Stay connected on the go with a full featured tablet PC. Click now!
>http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4s9WvII3HbE6KSPpWKXwUmbZtZRGfxK58vEGa3HE0PV2Wq5E/?count=1234567890
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: I need to replace my elevator skin. |
Was your kit pre drilled from zenith?
do not archive
**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
Message 8
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I'm a bit confused by this statement Andrew. Maybe I'm just parsing it wrong but
are you saying that Van's wants this to be an E-LSA and not an E-AB? If so,
is Van's going to build a completed S-LSA that is required for there to be an
E-LSA?
Andrewlieser wrote:
> David,
> The RV 12 probably will be a nice airplane but it appears as though VANS is shying
away from builders putting it together as an E-AB rather just an E-LSA so
you might be limited by that. E mail me if want any other info.
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181894#181894
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| Subject: | Re: I need to replace my elevator skin. |
No skin pre-drilling, I'm building from plans.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote: Was your kit pre drilled from zenith?
do not archive
---------------------------------
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Food.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: I need to replace my elevator skin. |
William - This method of using the old skin for a
template would work great for the stab skin but I
could see you having trouble locating the bends in
exact enough locations to make this work for the
elevator. I would probably try holding the skin open
and back drilling from the inside for the ribs and
using the hole duplicator for the other holes.
Well truthfully I would simply make more ribs and
start from scratch. These are the easiest ribs to make
in the whole plane. Barring that - backdrilling.
Just my 2 cents.
David
--- William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Yes, I can do that. I just have to ensure the bends
> will be in the exact same places as the old.
>
> William Dominguez
> Zodiac 601XL Plans
> Miami Florida
> http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
>
> Ron Lendon <rlendon@comcast.net> wrote: -->
>
> William,
>
> Can you unfold or split the skin and use it as a
> template for the replacement skin? Doing that might
> be faster and more accurate.
>
> --------
> Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
> Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
> http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181841#181841
David Barth
601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done?
Working on Wings
www.ch601.org
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Message 11
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| Subject: | Rudder Pedal connection quuestion. |
Can someone that has either the plans or 601XL handy check and tell me how the
control cable is connected to the rudder pedals?
I've had someone ask in another forum and my plans are at the airport and God knows
where my memory is.
I think it is simply an AN115-21 cable shackle.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181902#181902
Message 12
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Yup,
You can read about it on vansaircraft.com; but basically since the FAA has
declared a moratorium on new kit evaluations for the "rubber stamp"
certification of the 51% measurement, Vans made a business decision to make
it's new offering what I'm pretty sure will be the first "true" E-LSA. As
of now, they do not intend to sell s-LSAs, just produce and certify one, so
the E-LSA can be produced legally.
The downside of this for the builder is the E-LSA must be built exactly like
the original S-LSA down to the engine and instruments. The upside is a 5 hr
test period, & the availability of a class to do maintenance and annuals for
future buyers.
-Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gig Giacona
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 8:21 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aerobatics?
I'm a bit confused by this statement Andrew. Maybe I'm just parsing it wrong
but are you saying that Van's wants this to be an E-LSA and not an E-AB? If
so, is Van's going to build a completed S-LSA that is required for there to
be an E-LSA?
Andrewlieser wrote:
> David,
> The RV 12 probably will be a nice airplane but it appears as though VANS
is shying away from builders putting it together as an E-AB rather just an
E-LSA so you might be limited by that. E mail me if want any other info.
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181894#181894
Checked by AVG.
8:39 AM
Checked by AVG.
8:39 AM
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Pedal connection quuestion. |
Gig,
Your memory serves you correctly. They are the AN115-21 shackles.
Good Luck,
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL, working on final assembly.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181919#181919
Message 14
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Gig,
This was the excerpt from the SNF Vans Brochure:
In February 2008, the FAA instituted a moratorium on reviewing new kits for compliance
with Experimental-Amateur Built
category.
This has left Vans Aircraft only one option;
to pursue licensing in the Experimental Light
Sport Aircraft (E-LSA) category. We are
submitting the RV-12 prototype for Special
Light Sport Aircraft (S-SLA) approval and
expect to have it soon. When this is received,
RV-12 builders may build and license
conforming airplanes in the E-LSA
category.
Although the E-LSA category does not permit
builders to vary from the kit or plans (no
unapproved engines, propellers, etc. are allowed)
VANS says the "burden of proof shall be solely on the builder" on their website
with reference to the E-AB licensing. They DON'T specifically say that its not
possible though and goes as far as saying that it should be probable.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--------
Andrew Lieser
S/N 6-7045
http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181923#181923
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
Firstly, I like the XL and own a kit in progress. And no I am not employed by
a rival homebuilt company just rather a person who bought prior/during the first
accidents and has grown more concerned as the number of accidents increased
with no real solution being found.
"I think the accidents or at least most of them will be attributable to pilot error
in some form or another. Or a flaw in the way it was constructed."
Does it not seem to you that there are a disproportionate number of pilots making
errors and builders not constructing the aircraft correctly?
Previously certain listers have called for an end to the speculation on the crashes.
As far as I am aware there is currently no substantive evidence of pilot
error or poor workmanship on all of the accident aircraft. Therefore to assume
this position would also be speculative.
That being said I actually believe there is a need for intellectually based speculation
as no other parties appear to be forthcoming with any substantive evidence
as to the cause of the crash.
In terms of workmanship I do not believe that this is the recurring factor due
to the range of persons/entities building the aircraft. On the basis of the various
reports I believe that Czech Airworks, AMD and home builders have built
XLs that have crashed. It would be unlikely, in terms of probability, that all
three of these groups across various nations are all negligent in their building
skills (and/or build materials) therefore causing structural failure. It
this was the case we would see approximately the same percentage failure rate
across all homebuilds as I would assume that Zenith builders are little different
from other builders in terms of accuracy etc.
If the tolerances for building are so small that the abovementioned three building
groups cannot always produce a structurally sound aircraft then we have a
problem with the design.
In reference to the unreliability of eye witness reports. How many unreliable
eye witness reports of wings flapping etc does it take to give a tiny piece of
credence to their report? The witnesses tend to be "civilians" and therefore
are unlikely to have been tainted with the notion that XL wings allegedly fail.
I am only saying that they can't all be wrong.
In terms of pilot error I could concede that if all the alleged structural failure
pilots were from the new LSA licence only it might be a training issue however
the pilots of the various crashes seem to have a large range of experience
and licences (from little to a large amount of hours with other aircraft also
being owned by the same pilot, from PPL and upwards to LSA).
In terms of the suggestion of overstressing the aircraft with rapid elevator deflections
I would suggest that this is possible however bearing in mind that the
XL is stressed in certain cases to higher ultimate g tolerances that quite
a few certified aircraft you would expect the same "careless" pilots to be killing
themselves in certified aircraft at the same rates. This does not seem to
be the case across the board however I agree that in certain cases, potentially
for example G-YOXI in the UK, where it appears as if pilot error is present.
I am concerned that Zenith have issued the AD regarding the elevator deflection
however I would like to understand on what factual basis did they arrive at this
modification to prevent further structural failures. Is this AD then not
also speculative in nature?
The only consistent factor that we are aware of at the moment is the design (save
for the recent RB mod version).
I have sent an email to Zenith regarding similar thoughts to the ones listed above
and wait for a response. I believe that Zenith have an ethical and commercial
obligation to be both transparent and engage in further dynamic testing.
I understand that the regulations only require the static load tests but my concern
is that in flight the aircraft's wings are not uniformly loaded (especially
evident in the case of deploying full drag flap). As a result of the accidents
and the "successful" repeated static load tests it would be prudent to transparently
investigate/test further potential areas of concern outline by some
of the listers.
I abhor the fact that without substantive evidence of the cause of the accidents
combined with an appropriate resolution the likelihood of seeing further accidents
posted on these pages is very real.
One last question does anyone know why the published negative g load reduced from
-6 to -3?
Apologies for the long email.
James
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181930#181930
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
Scotsman wrote:
> I actually believe there is a need for intellectually based speculation as no
other parties appear to be forthcoming with any substantive evidence as to the
cause of the crash.
Well said, James.
Perhaps as a group we should replace the word "speculation", with the word "brainstorming".
Many of us XL builders *are* engineers, and many disciplines are represented among
the builders on this forum. As a group we cover a lot of ground, with the
common thread amongst us being construction of an XL...
Speculation - I mean *brainstorming* - is welcomed and encouraged.
- Pat
--------
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181957#181957
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
James, that was a very thoughtful and well written post. It is ludicrous to believe
that all of these accidents were caused by pilot error or poor construction.
Are we to assume that we are all better pilots and builders than these poor
folks?
Do you have to be an astronaut or an aeronautical engineer to safely build and
fly a 601XL? We are all (well, most of us) amateur pilots and builders. There
should be some margin for error.
There are too many good people losing their lives. It is not disrespectful of Chris
H. for the building community to want some answers. This is supposed to be
fun, not scary.
Dave Clay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181966#181966
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
As far as speculative posts please keep in mind that the well written post James
just made is in a thread about an accident where there is no information that
there was any in-flight break up at all. In fact, the first reports sound like
the standard failure to recover from stall accidents that happen every week
among planes of all types all over the world.
Is there cause for concern, sure. But I urge every one to go back and read the
letters that Chris Heintz has written on the issue. Yes, I know that these links
are behind the password protection of the builder's area but if Zenith doesn't
choose to secure them any better than that then that is their fault and any
Google Search could find them as easily with or without my posting them here.
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/cheintz-ntsb-nyc08fa158.pdf
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/ch-letter-601xl-3-25-2008.pdf
(Please note that this second letter has a P.S. after the signature. I know I missed
it the first time I read the letter and it has just about as much info in
the P.S. as it does in the body of the letter.)
As far a factual data for the elevator limiting modification that has been issued.
It is very clear from flying the 601XL without the modification in place that
the aircraft has, and I'll use a technical phrase here, a metric buttload
of down elevator force. Way more than it could ever need in normal flight. In
my almost 30 years as a certificated pilot, with time logged in over 25 models
of aircraft I will say that, with the exception of a couple of aerobatic aircraft,
I have never flown an aircraft that had as much unused down elevator as
the 601XL.
On the issue of pilot error, while experience helps it does not free pilots from
screwing up. You only have to look back to the 2006 accident that took Scott
Crossfield's life to prove that point. He had more high risk flying hours than
all of the 601XL pilots combined have normal hours and he makes the bad choice
to fly into weather that was to much for the plane.
In addition to the UK crash that James mentioned we also have the accident where
the low time LSA pilot flew into bad weather and the other one where the family
of the pilot admitted that he buzzed the house regularly. These are both situations
that have historically cost pilots their lives.
In closing I'd like to say that have no problem with speculative brainstorming.
I have a problem with those on the list that make design change decisions without
all the facts and we don't have all the facts. Most 601 builders, myself
included, aren't qualified to design the changes even if we had all the facts.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181978#181978
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
James,
People contributing to the list like you is what it makes this list GOLD
Very well explained and thought.
Alberto Martin
Iberplanes IGL
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Espaa
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scotsman" <james.roberts@computershare.co.za>
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 6:14 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil
> <james.roberts@computershare.co.za>
>
> Firstly, I like the XL and own a kit in progress. And no I am not
> employed by a rival homebuilt company just rather a person who bought
> prior/during the first accidents and has grown more concerned as the
> number of accidents increased with no real solution being found.
>
> "I think the accidents or at least most of them will be attributable to
> pilot error in some form or another. Or a flaw in the way it was
> constructed."
>
> Does it not seem to you that there are a disproportionate number of pilots
> making errors and builders not constructing the aircraft correctly?
>
> Previously certain listers have called for an end to the speculation on
> the crashes. As far as I am aware there is currently no substantive
> evidence of pilot error or poor workmanship on all of the accident
> aircraft. Therefore to assume this position would also be speculative.
>
> That being said I actually believe there is a need for intellectually
> based speculation as no other parties appear to be forthcoming with any
> substantive evidence as to the cause of the crash.
>
> In terms of workmanship I do not believe that this is the recurring factor
> due to the range of persons/entities building the aircraft. On the basis
> of the various reports I believe that Czech Airworks, AMD and home
> builders have built XLs that have crashed. It would be unlikely, in terms
> of probability, that all three of these groups across various nations are
> all negligent in their building skills (and/or build materials) therefore
> causing structural failure. It this was the case we would see
> approximately the same percentage failure rate across all homebuilds as I
> would assume that Zenith builders are little different from other builders
> in terms of accuracy etc.
>
> If the tolerances for building are so small that the abovementioned three
> building groups cannot always produce a structurally sound aircraft then
> we have a problem with the design.
>
> In reference to the unreliability of eye witness reports. How many
> unreliable eye witness reports of wings flapping etc does it take to give
> a tiny piece of credence to their report? The witnesses tend to be
> "civilians" and therefore are unlikely to have been tainted with the
> notion that XL wings allegedly fail. I am only saying that they can't all
> be wrong.
>
> In terms of pilot error I could concede that if all the alleged structural
> failure pilots were from the new LSA licence only it might be a training
> issue however the pilots of the various crashes seem to have a large range
> of experience and licences (from little to a large amount of hours with
> other aircraft also being owned by the same pilot, from PPL and upwards to
> LSA).
>
> In terms of the suggestion of overstressing the aircraft with rapid
> elevator deflections I would suggest that this is possible however bearing
> in mind that the XL is stressed in certain cases to higher ultimate g
> tolerances that quite a few certified aircraft you would expect the same
> "careless" pilots to be killing themselves in certified aircraft at the
> same rates. This does not seem to be the case across the board however I
> agree that in certain cases, potentially for example G-YOXI in the UK,
> where it appears as if pilot error is present.
>
> I am concerned that Zenith have issued the AD regarding the elevator
> deflection however I would like to understand on what factual basis did
> they arrive at this modification to prevent further structural failures.
> Is this AD then not also speculative in nature?
>
> The only consistent factor that we are aware of at the moment is the
> design (save for the recent RB mod version).
>
> I have sent an email to Zenith regarding similar thoughts to the ones
> listed above and wait for a response. I believe that Zenith have an
> ethical and commercial obligation to be both transparent and engage in
> further dynamic testing.
>
> I understand that the regulations only require the static load tests but
> my concern is that in flight the aircraft's wings are not uniformly loaded
> (especially evident in the case of deploying full drag flap). As a result
> of the accidents and the "successful" repeated static load tests it would
> be prudent to transparently investigate/test further potential areas of
> concern outline by some of the listers.
>
> I abhor the fact that without substantive evidence of the cause of the
> accidents combined with an appropriate resolution the likelihood of seeing
> further accidents posted on these pages is very real.
>
> One last question does anyone know why the published negative g load
> reduced from -6 to -3?
>
> Apologies for the long email.
>
> James
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181930#181930
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
Thanks Gig
I had missed that P.S. After reading it, I am wondering where CH got the
info about the Barcelona crash. He stated that the pilot was diving at
180 mph making abrupt maneuvers for the crowd. I don't remember seeing
this anywhere. Wonder where the info came from.
Kevin Bonds
Gig Giacona wrote:
>
> As far as speculative posts please keep in mind that the well written post James
just made is in a thread about an
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Pedal connection quuestion. |
The rudder cables are attached to the pedals with a cable shackle
secured with an AN-3 bolt and castle nut. The turnbuckles are installed
at the rudder horn.
>
> Can someone that has either the plans or 601XL handy check and tell me how the
control cable is connected to the rudder pedals?
>
> I've had someone ask in another forum and my plans are at the airport and God
knows where my memory is.
>
> I think it is simply an AN115-21 cable shackle.
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
--
Bryan Martin
Zenith 601XL N61BM
Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive
Do Not Archive
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
DO NOT ARCHIVE
More importantly, how would you know about the 180mph?
I guess the Spaniards have telemetry.
Kevin Bonds wrote:
>
> Thanks Gig
> I had missed that P.S. After reading it, I am wondering where CH got
> the info about the Barcelona crash. He stated that the pilot was
> diving at 180 mph making abrupt maneuvers for the crowd. I don't
> remember seeing this anywhere. Wonder where the info came from.
>
> Kevin Bonds
>
> Gig Giacona wrote:
>> <wr.giacona@suddenlink.net>
>>
>> As far as speculative posts please keep in mind that the well written
>> post James just made is in a thread about an
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
I can't believe this ...
FOUR pages of speculation about what failed, and the details of the crash
are not even released.
WELL OK THEN ...
I say, what happened is - the timer went off upstairs and God said, ok
times up - Blamo.
You guys really ought to take a break from the list for a week or two and
think about other things. There is no information on the crash yet. :)
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182010#182010
Message 24
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| Subject: | Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders -- |
With Attachment!
Dear Fellow Zenith Builder
This message was originally sent to Zenith-Listers who responded "I'm in"
to the thread regarding an independent analysis of the 601XL wing. It is
posted here for two reasons:
* To avoid missing any "I'm in" responders because of spam filters or
whatever reason
* To give all readers of the Zenith-List a second chance to participate
in the Independent Analysis of the 601XL wing
Regarding the apparent wing failure accidents with 601XL's:
At 09:42 AM 3/12/2008 -0500, John Bolding wrote:
>>I've got no dog in this hunt as I'm building a 701, however, I
>>mentioned a year ago that if you XL guys are SERIOUS about getting to the
>>bottom of this then 3RD party analysis is your best bet. Zenith has shown
>>they are unwilling or not capable of anything other than redoing what
>>they already did and that proves nothing.
>>
>>Many years ago the Adventurer Amphib had a wing failure and after ONE
>>such incident the builders got together and hired Martin Holman to do a
>>flutter/ vibration/structure analysis. He found that with the wing tanks
>>at a certain % of fuel the wing had an unstable mode at a speed well
>>within cruise speeds, a fix was determined and life was good, at least
>>as good as the rest of the airplane which was a POS.
>>
>>SOMEBODY needs to belly up to the bar and DO SOMETHING instead of just
>>whine and moan. Find an engineer capable of this project, pass the hat,
>>send him a set of drawings and see what shakes out. It ain't going away
>>folks. The FAA isn't going to help, the NTSB isn't going to help, the
>>ball is on YOUR side of the net.
>>
>>John
After John's post, Andy Shontz started a thread on the Zenith List giving
Zenith-Listers the opportunity to declare their support for conducting an
independent structural analysis of the 601XL wing design. You are one of
those who responded with an "I'm in."
Andy recently stated on the Zenith-List that he was unable to lead the
analysis effort. So, ...
In John's words, I've decided to "belly up to the bar and DO SOMETHING."
Two potential sources for the analysis were mentioned on the List, Orion
Technology and an "MIT Aeronautical Engineer." I had a wonderful
conversation with Bill Husa of Orion. Bill was very friendly and helpful.
However, he is over-committed at this time and did not feel comfortable
taking on this project now. I called the number given for the MIT
aeronautical engineer several times, and left a voice mail, but was never
able to make contact.
With the help of a friend, I have identified an aircraft structural
engineer, Mark Sensmeier, who is qualified and willing to do the analysis.
Mark and I have agreed upon a statement of work and a project cost. For
more information about Mark, see:
http://pr.erau.edu/~sensmeim/
I have attached a pdf file containing the SOW, Mark's cost estimate, and a
Release and Hold Harmless form. As you can see, Mark provided a cost
estimate for the basic task, "To attempt to determine whether the structure
(including the skin), as designed, has adequate strength to meet the
published design loads of =B16G," as well as, for several optional tasks
that
may be done, if funding is available.
Which brings us to funding. While my belly is plenty big enough for the
bar, my wallet is too thin to pay for the analysis myself. So, I will open
a savings account at the Ravalli County Bank, Corvallis, MT, with my $300
contribution to the support fund. All withdrawals from the account will
require a signature from both me and from another group member, Al Hays.
I've not met Al--I picked him off the "I'm in" list. I thank him for
agreeing to help with the project. I was able to find 25 people who posted
an "I'm in" message. I know that some those may have changed their mind,
so, I've budgeted assuming that we can get twenty $300 contributions, for a
working fund of $6000. This would allow us to pay for the basic analysis
plus a couple of the extras. Mark estimates $4800 for basic analysis plus a
final report. So, our absolute, drop-dead requirement (possibly not the
best metaphor :-) to do the basic analysis would be 16 contributors at
$300/ea. As an aside, Bill Husa of Orion Technology gave me a ball park
estimate of $4-5,000 for the basic analysis.
To formally join the effort, I need you to do the following:
* Print, sign and date the Release and Hold Harmless, and put it into
an envelope addressed to me:
* Terry Phillips
* 1956 Haywire Lane
* Corvallis MT 59828 USA
* Produce a self-addressed-stamped-envelope (SASE)
* Write out a $300 check to "Zenith Builders Analysis
Group-Phillips-Hays."
* Put the check into the SASE.
* Put the un-sealed SASE into the envelope addressed to me.
* Mail the envelope to me.
* Time is critical right now. Mark has out-of-town commitments after
June 11, and he will not be back until early August. If I hear from you
promptly, it may be possible to get the basic analysis done before he
leaves on June 11.
If you decide that you will not support this independent analysis, please
inform me by email. To make sure that I reach all of you, I will post a
version of this note on the Zenith-List. I will hold all checks until we
reach a total of $4,800. At that point, I will deposit the checks into the
account and initiate a letter contract with Mark to begin the analysis.
I'll let you know when this occurs. If I do not receive a total of $4,800
within 4 weeks, i.e., by 6/5/08, I will conclude that the commitment to do
the analysis just isn't there, and I will return your check to you, using
your SASE. If you have not provided a SASE, I will shred your check.
Some of the "I'm in" responders appear to reside outside the US. I would
like to proceed a bit differently with you all. Please print, sign, and
date the Release and airmail it to me. Do not send any cash at this time,
but do notify me by email that you are mailing the release. I will notify
you, if and when we reach the $4,800 contribution level. At that time I
will request that you send me your payment by PayPal or by international
money order. I'd like to minimize sending funds across international
borders in the event that we cannot raise $4800. To expedite contracting, I
will commit to Mark based upon receipt of your signed release, so please do
not send the release unless you are serious about supporting the effort.
Thank you.
If we eventually receive contributions that exceed $6,000, we will, in order
* Authorize Mark to perform additional optional analyses that appear to
give the most bang for the buck.
* Print paper copies of Mark's final report and mail them to group
members (Otherwise, you'll only get a pdf).
* Reimburse me and/or Al for any up-front expenses, such as copying my
601XL plans for Mark.
* Contribute any remaining funds to an appropriate charity, such as the
AOPA Aviation Safety Foundation.
At the completion of the project we will do the following:
* Send each group member either a paper or pdf copy of the final report.
* Send two copies of the final report to ZAC; one for ZAC, and one to
be forwarded to the NTSB.
* Close out the bank account.
* Email a spreadsheet to each contributor detailing all expenses
incurred by the group.
* Fly into the sunset, wishing CAVU for 601XL builders everywhere.
In closing, let me say that, as shown by my Kitlog site referenced below, I
am not some fly-by-night hustler. I am a legitimate 601XL builder. I want
to be able to fly my 601 with confidence that the wings will not fall off
when I'm flying straight and level in the pattern. Al and I will do our
best to run this project for the common good of all 601XL builders. Once
the project is underway, Al and I will be glad to consider any input that
you may have regarding Mark's work. But, to keep the project manageable, we
will reserve final directions for Mark to ourselves. If you have any
questions about anything I've written above, you may call me at
406-961-5342. Thank you for your support.
Copying U.S. Grant's signature in a note to General S.B. Buckner, CSA, at
Fort Donelson, TN.
I am sir, very respectfully,
Your obedient servant,
Terry Phillips
Zenith Builder 6-6783
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 25
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The other side of this coin, is that the builder can decide whether
to certify his kit built plane as E-AB even if the kit is not
pre-approved. All he needs to do is convince the DAR or Inspector
that he did 51% of the work. If the RV-12 is anything like the other
kits Van makes then this should be no problem at all. It takes some
photos and a builder's log just like any other kit or scratch built plane.
I spoke with Van's brother at a meeting last week over this issue. I
think they are a little bit confused over the question of what a
Sport Pilot can fly vs. what kind of airworthiness certificate a
plane has. So long as the plane in question meets the definition of
LSA it just doesn't matter what kind of airworthiness certificate the
plane has.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
At 07:02 AM 5/8/2008, you wrote:
>You can read about it on vansaircraft.com; but basically since the FAA has
>declared a moratorium on new kit evaluations for the "rubber stamp"
>certification of the 51% measurement, Vans made a business decision to make
>it's new offering what I'm pretty sure will be the first "true" E-LSA. As
>of now, they do not intend to sell s-LSAs, just produce and certify one, so
>the E-LSA can be produced legally.
>
>The downside of this for the builder is the E-LSA must be built exactly like
>the original S-LSA down to the engine and instruments. The upside is a 5 hr
>test period, & the availability of a class to do maintenance and annuals for
>future buyers.
>
>-Bruce
Message 26
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Just sitting in the Sonex was enough to eliminate it from my decision
process. It is a 1.5 place airplane and was uncomfortable for just me
alone. The seat is bolt upright and not comfortable at all. It would make
a fun single seat aerobatic toy with a modified seat. The 601XL by contrast
was the most comfortable lsa qualified plane I could find at Sun 'n Fun when
I was doing my research.
Dennis
On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 9:17 PM, dstasch <zstasch@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm planning to purchase the 601xl rudder kit next month but the one thing
> bothering me about if I'm choosing the right plane for me is it's lack of
> aerobatic ability.
>
> I chose the 601xl for the sport pilot category, metal construction,
> side-by-side seating, cost, looks, there is a factory in America (nothing
> against foreign it just sounds expensive :)) and I'm sure a few other things
> that I can't think of right now. And of course this great list where I can
> come to ask all my dumb questions :)
>
> I can't find a plane more intriguing to me to build than the 601lx but I
> have a bit of an addiction for aerobatics. I'm talking about just light
> stuff loops, rolls, spins etc...
>
> I've looked at few other kits:
>
> Kitfox - Non metal and I kind of prefer low wing
>
> Century - looks nice, not much info. I can't even find it on the web again.
>
> RV-12 - Not finished yet and I couldn't find much about it's aerobatic
> abilities.
>
> Rans S-19 - looks nice but a little expensive
>
> Sonex - Not sure why but not the plane for me
>
> Cri Cri - not really but I think this is a cool looking little plane
>
> http://flight.cz/cricri/english/cri-cri-photos-pictures-secchi.php
>
>
> My plan now is to build a 601xl for x-country flights and taking family and
> friends for rides, then perhaps renting an Aerobat occasionally for my loop
> and spin cravings.
>
> I understand the trade-offs and that you can't have it ALL in one plane,
> but I wish to make sure I didn't overlook another plane that would be a
> better fit for me.
>
> Any suggestions or links you may have would be greatly appreciated. If
> not, I can't wait to order the rudder kit :)
>
> Take care,
> David
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181832#181832
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
Listers,
I debated whether to share this email exchange with you, and have decided to do
so, as I believe it's possible (speculation) that it may have been a factor in
this particular tragedy.
Dan
>
> Hi Dan.
>
> Thank you for your words!!!
> Sorry, I stayed there only some minutes.
> I'll tell for him :)
>
> Roberto Brito.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Daniel Dempsey
> To: Roberto Ap. Rodrigues de Brito
> Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:53 PM
> Subject: Re: Zodiac by Airfox's videos..
>
>
> Beautiful Planes Roberto! I'd advise your freind Richardo to ease up a little
on the high speed, high G stuff. Tell him it's not a crop duster!
> I understand I just missed you at the Sun N' Fun barbeque.
> Good luck.
> Dan Dempsey
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Roberto Ap. Rodrigues de Brito
> To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
> Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 8:20 PM
> Subject: Zodiac by Airfox's videos..
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> See these videos!!!
>
> First, the Zodiac #2 (XL TD Jab 3300, Sensenich).
> It belongs my friend Ricardo Lopes, Agricultural Pilot almost 19.000 hs as pilot.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlpLeVvep7k&feature=related
>
> Second, the Zodiac #5 (XL Jab 3300, Sensenich, Leather Seats, Enigma, Balistic
Parachute and AP True Track).
> It belongs my friend Raimundo Florncio, note the new main gear!! Higher and nicer
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kopooikq7D4
>
> Rgds,
>
> Roberto Brito.
> Airfox Ultraleves.
> www.airfox.com.br
>
> Brazil
>
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182039#182039
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| Subject: | How many Gs are these maneuvers? |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlpLeVvep7k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X8GcFqTpYM
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182045#182045
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| Subject: | Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? |
Sabrina,
That's almost impossible to say accurately because while you could estimate roughly
3 G from the apparent speed and how quickly he arrested the speed in one
direction then add a G for normal weight, real world accelerations don't work
like that, because of things like how gently the pilot applies stick pressure
and air turbulence and other complicating factors. The thing that struck me when
I saw the video was that Richardo (God rest his sole) was an agricultural
pilot and he was flying the plane as if it were a crop duster.
Could it be we haven't heard of any Corvair powered Zodiacs breaking wings because
the Corvair folks know their engine won't take high G maneuvers so they fly
their planes accordingly? Of course it could also be because there are so
few of us.
Dan
Dan
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182053#182053
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
Just a very short note:
If you read it well, at least for my poor english understanding, He says that
diving at 180 (probably a speed HE got when actualy testing the XL prototype
in a dive) then pulling up as a bomb diver will stess the airplane. I dont
find where He says that THAT specific airplane did that.
Probably I am all wrong, but just want to be fair.
Back to MUTE and READ.
Saludos
Gary Gower
Do not archive.
Kevin Bonds <kevinbonds@comcast.net> wrote:
Thanks Gig
I had missed that P.S. After reading it, I am wondering where CH got the
info about the Barcelona crash. He stated that the pilot was diving at
180 mph making abrupt maneuvers for the crowd. I don't remember seeing
this anywhere. Wonder where the info came from.
Kevin Bonds
Gig Giacona wrote:
>
> As far as speculative posts please keep in mind that the well written post James
just made is in a thread about an
---------------------------------
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Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? |
The pull up at the far end of the field is kinda hard to really see but
I will guess 2.2- 2.5 G's. The last pass right in front of the camera is
maybe 1.5 -1.8 at best and flown real smooth. Remember one can make som
e impressive manauvers and if kept smooth in control imputs it hardly re
aches more then 1.5 G's.. Well within range of a +6, -3 airframe..
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Sabrina" <chicago2paris@msn.com> wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlpLeVvep7k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X8GcFqTpYM
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182045#182045
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Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Another XL Down - Brazil |
I wonder the same thing. I read several Spanish news reports about the accident
plus the preliminary report, none of them mention anything specifically about
abrupt maneuvers for the crowd. But it was speculated in the news that the plane
was having engine problems and was going to attempt an emergency landing at
a soccer field. But there was a game going on in the field and the pilot apparently
decided to avoid the field, then the accident happened.
It was also mention in some of the news that the son of one of the persons aboard
the plane was playing in the field.
However, there's no mention of any of this in the official preliminary report.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
Thanks Gig
I had missed that P.S. After reading it, I am wondering where CH got the
info about the Barcelona crash. He stated that the pilot was diving at
180 mph making abrupt maneuvers for the crowd. I don't remember seeing
this anywhere. Wonder where the info came from.
Kevin Bonds
Gig Giacona wrote:
>
> As far as speculative posts please keep in mind that the well written post James
just made is in a thread about an
Message 33
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| Subject: | Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders |
-- With Attachment!
Everything goes out tomorrow.
David Lautenschlager
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry
Phillips
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 6:17 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in"
responders
-- With Attachment!
Dear Fellow Zenith Builder
This message was originally sent to Zenith-Listers who responded "I'm
in" to
the thread regarding an independent analysis of the 601XL wing. It is
posted
here for two reasons:
* To avoid missing any "I'm in" responders because of spam filters or
whatever reason
* To give all readers of the Zenith-List a second chance to
participate in the Independent Analysis of the 601XL wing
Regarding the apparent wing failure accidents with 601XL's:
At 09:42 AM 3/12/2008 -0500, John Bolding wrote:
I've got no dog in this hunt as I'm building a 701, however, I
mentioned a
year ago that if you XL guys are SERIOUS about getting to the bottom of
this
then 3RD party analysis is your best bet. Zenith has shown they are
unwilling or not capable of anything other than redoing what they
already
did and that proves nothing.
Many years ago the Adventurer Amphib had a wing failure and after ONE
such
incident the builders got together and hired Martin Holman to do a
flutter/
vibration/structure analysis. He found that with the wing tanks at a
certain % of fuel the wing had an unstable mode at a speed well within
cruise speeds, a fix was determined and life was good, at least as
good as
the rest of the airplane which was a POS.
SOMEBODY needs to belly up to the bar and DO SOMETHING instead of just
whine
and moan. Find an engineer capable of this project, pass the hat, send
him
a set of drawings and see what shakes out. It ain't going away folks.
The
FAA isn't going to help, the NTSB isn't going to help, the ball is on
YOUR
side of the net.
John
After John's post, Andy Shontz started a thread on the Zenith List
giving
Zenith-Listers the opportunity to declare their support for conducting
an
independent structural analysis of the 601XL wing design. You are one of
those who responded with an "I'm in."
Andy recently stated on the Zenith-List that he was unable to lead the
analysis effort. So, ...
In John's words, I've decided to "belly up to the bar and DO SOMETHING."
Two potential sources for the analysis were mentioned on the List, Orion
Technology and an "MIT Aeronautical Engineer." I had a wonderful
conversation with Bill Husa of Orion. Bill was very friendly and
helpful.
However, he is over-committed at this time and did not feel comfortable
taking on this project now. I called the number given for the MIT
aeronautical engineer several times, and left a voice mail, but was
never
able to make contact.
With the help of a friend, I have identified an aircraft structural
engineer, Mark Sensmeier, who is qualified and willing to do the
analysis.
Mark and I have agreed upon a statement of work and a project cost. For
more
information about Mark, see:
http://pr.erau.edu/~sensmeim/
I have attached a pdf file containing the SOW, Mark's cost estimate, and
a
Release and Hold Harmless form. As you can see, Mark provided a cost
estimate for the basic task, "To attempt to determine whether the
structure
(including the skin), as designed, has adequate strength to meet the
published design loads of =B16G," as well as, for several optional tasks
that
may be done, if funding is available.
Which brings us to funding. While my belly is plenty big enough for the
bar,
my wallet is too thin to pay for the analysis myself. So, I will open a
savings account at the Ravalli County Bank, Corvallis, MT, with my $300
contribution to the support fund. All withdrawals from the account will
require a signature from both me and from another group member, Al Hays.
I've not met Al--I picked him off the "I'm in" list. I thank him for
agreeing to help with the project. I was able to find 25 people who
posted
an "I'm in" message. I know that some those may have changed their mind,
so,
I've budgeted assuming that we can get twenty $300 contributions, for a
working fund of $6000. This would allow us to pay for the basic analysis
plus a couple of the extras. Mark estimates $4800 for basic analysis
plus a
final report. So, our absolute, drop-dead requirement (possibly not the
best
metaphor :-) to do the basic analysis would be 16 contributors at
$300/ea.
As an aside, Bill Husa of Orion Technology gave me a ball park estimate
of
$4-5,000 for the basic analysis.
To formally join the effort, I need you to do the following:
* Print, sign and date the Release and Hold Harmless, and put it into
an envelope addressed to me:
* Terry Phillips
* 1956 Haywire Lane
* Corvallis MT 59828 USA
* Produce a self-addressed-stamped-envelope (SASE)
* Write out a $300 check to "Zenith Builders Analysis
Group-Phillips-Hays."
* Put the check into the SASE.
* Put the un-sealed SASE into the envelope addressed to me.
* Mail the envelope to me.
* Time is critical right now. Mark has out-of-town commitments after
June 11, and he will not be back until early August. If I hear from you
promptly, it may be possible to get the basic analysis done before he
leaves
on June 11.
If you decide that you will not support this independent analysis,
please
inform me by email. To make sure that I reach all of you, I will post a
version of this note on the Zenith-List. I will hold all checks until we
reach a total of $4,800. At that point, I will deposit the checks into
the
account and initiate a letter contract with Mark to begin the analysis.
I'll
let you know when this occurs. If I do not receive a total of $4,800
within
4 weeks, i.e., by 6/5/08, I will conclude that the commitment to do the
analysis just isn't there, and I will return your check to you, using
your
SASE. If you have not provided a SASE, I will shred your check.
Some of the "I'm in" responders appear to reside outside the US. I would
like to proceed a bit differently with you all. Please print, sign, and
date
the Release and airmail it to me. Do not send any cash at this time, but
do
notify me by email that you are mailing the release. I will notify you,
if
and when we reach the $4,800 contribution level. At that time I will
request
that you send me your payment by PayPal or by international money order.
I'd
like to minimize sending funds across international borders in the event
that we cannot raise $4800. To expedite contracting, I will commit to
Mark
based upon receipt of your signed release, so please do not send the
release
unless you are serious about supporting the effort. Thank you.
If we eventually receive contributions that exceed $6,000, we will, in
order
* Authorize Mark to perform additional optional analyses that appear
to give the most bang for the buck.
* Print paper copies of Mark's final report and mail them to group
members (Otherwise, you'll only get a pdf).
* Reimburse me and/or Al for any up-front expenses, such as copying my
601XL plans for Mark.
* Contribute any remaining funds to an appropriate charity, such as
the AOPA Aviation Safety Foundation.
At the completion of the project we will do the following:
* Send each group member either a paper or pdf copy of the final
report.
* Send two copies of the final report to ZAC; one for ZAC, and one to
be forwarded to the NTSB.
* Close out the bank account.
* Email a spreadsheet to each contributor detailing all expenses
incurred by the group.
* Fly into the sunset, wishing CAVU for 601XL builders everywhere.
In closing, let me say that, as shown by my Kitlog site referenced
below, I
am not some fly-by-night hustler. I am a legitimate 601XL builder. I
want to
be able to fly my 601 with confidence that the wings will not fall off
when
I'm flying straight and level in the pattern. Al and I will do our best
to
run this project for the common good of all 601XL builders. Once the
project
is underway, Al and I will be glad to consider any input that you may
have
regarding Mark's work. But, to keep the project manageable, we will
reserve
final directions for Mark to ourselves. If you have any questions about
anything I've written above, you may call me at 406-961-5342. Thank you
for
your support.
Copying U.S. Grant's signature in a note to General S.B. Buckner, CSA,
at
Fort Donelson, TN.
I am sir, very respectfully,
Your obedient servant,
Terry Phillips
Zenith Builder 6-6783
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are
done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
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