Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:34 AM - Bending- again... (Jugle)
2. 12:57 AM - Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? (Grant Corriveau)
3. 02:59 AM - Website update (Aerolitellc@aol.com)
4. 04:58 AM - Re: XL FUselage, Gear, Controls and Wing For Sale (Iberplanes IGL)
5. 05:25 AM - Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders -- (swater6)
6. 05:51 AM - Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders... (brwood)
7. 07:55 AM - Re: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders... (Terry Phillips)
8. 08:52 AM - Course adjustment (lwinger)
9. 09:17 AM - Re: Bending- again... (Ron Lendon)
10. 09:34 AM - Re: Course adjustment (Ron Lendon)
11. 09:36 AM - Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- (Roberto Ap. Rodrigues de Brito)
12. 11:14 AM - using 87-0ctane with ethanol (LarryMcFarland)
13. 11:54 AM - Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol (Ronald Steele)
14. 12:37 PM - Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol (Paul Mulwitz)
15. 01:47 PM - Re: Course adjustment (steve)
16. 01:47 PM - CH801 First Flight ! (Rich)
17. 03:32 PM - Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders -- (steveadams)
18. 03:36 PM - Re: CH801 First Flight ! (n801bh@netzero.com)
19. 04:22 PM - Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? (Ken Lilja)
20. 05:08 PM - Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol (Bryan Martin)
21. 05:15 PM - About another XL Down - Brazil (Roberto Ap. Rodrigues de Brito)
22. 05:39 PM - Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders -- ... (Flydog1966@aol.com)
23. 05:54 PM - Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders -- (Terry Phillips)
24. 06:55 PM - Pros/Cons of Installing AN525 Aileron Piano Hinge Hardware? (Sabrina)
25. 07:00 PM - Re: Bending- again... (Jugle)
26. 07:15 PM - Re: Pros/Cons of Installing AN525 Aileron Piano Hinge Hardware? (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
27. 07:45 PM - Re: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders... (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
28. 08:49 PM - Re: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders... (Frank Roskind)
29. 08:50 PM - Re: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders... (Jeff)
30. 09:15 PM - Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders -- (Ron Lendon)
31. 09:29 PM - Re: Bending- again... (Ron Lendon)
32. 09:49 PM - Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders... (Ron Lendon)
33. 11:21 PM - Re: Pros/Cons of Installing AN525 Aileron Piano Hinge Hardware? (Thruster87)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Bending- again... |
Hi Scratchbuilders,
Well I've been following some of your suggestions using Dave Clay's brake, including
the recommendation of leaving the flanges wider while bending, then trimming
them down and Larry Winger's idea of putting the brake bolts through the
metal.
The bends are great when the flange is wide, but when trimmed back to 18mm to create
angle sections, I end up with a nice gentle curve in the piece.
It seems to be within Bend Straightness tolerances as per the Construction Standards,
but I'm wondering if yours are curved too and what the factory ones are
like. Above all, will straightening that curve out when fixing put any undue
stress on the structures?
Thanks, Glenn
--------
Glenn Andressen
601XL- just started.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182330#182330
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? |
G-force limitations on an airframe are determined according to
particular formulae and there are a lot of maneuvers that can violate
those presumptions. For example, Ultimate G loads etc... are based
upon a particular rate of onset. If this rate is exceeded, then the
momentary load limits can be exceeded. Similarly a compound movement
around more than one axis can cause outer wing panels to experience
different G loading than the fuselage.
I'm just making the point that book numbers are just that - numbers.
If we fly the aircraft outside of the built-in presumptions, then
we've entered the world of test piloting - bring your own parachute.
And I don't know about other countries, but in Canada my Zodiac
carries a big placard that says: Aerobatics Prohibited.
Just my two cents worth.
Here's a good reminder - notice how slowly the loads are applied (yes
- I know it isn't a Zodiac):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fG96__plVFA
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I added a lot of pics of our new rear starter setup with 40 amp alt. and
harmonic balancer to the web site.
_http://aeroliteproducts.com/Fire_Wall_Forward.php_
(http://aeroliteproducts.com/Fire_Wall_Forward.php)
Jeff
_www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com)
**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
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| Subject: | Re: XL FUselage, Gear, Controls and Wing For Sale |
I would not sell if I were you. At least, wait until the information from
ZAC or the independent analysis comes to the light.
give your proyect a sencond chance.
Take care.
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
2008/5/10 MHerder <michaelherder@beckgroup.com>:
>
> Please feel free to check out my kit that I am considering the sale of on
> BARNSTORMERS.com just search Zodiac XL and my kit will come up, all of this
> discussion in this group has really started to wear on me to the point that
> it hasn't been fun the past month or so, and that is why I started. I am
> concerned, but maybe too concerned. AS A GOOD FAITH MEASURE TOWARD THE
> GROUP if I sell to a member on this list I will contribute to Terry Phillips
> analysis fund in the amount of $300 so that whomever gets the kit can be
> involved and receive findings of the report. This decision is very tough to
> make, as I feel that this kit is a part of me.... Feel free to contact me
> via e-mail of phone to discuss further if you wish. I am located in the
> Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex for those who might wish to take a look at the
> workmanship. Please view the ad for details. Upon request I can send more
> photos.
>
> Thanks to all
>
> --------
> One Rivet at a Time!
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182296#182296
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders |
--
Attached is the e-mail response I received from General Microfilm.
I'm sure if you give them a call, you can order the pictures. Looks like they
have 17 pictures and not sure if they offer digital format too.
Scott
> Hello,
> The NTSB aviation accident report in Modesto, California which happened on 02/08/06
that you inquired about is available. The cost is $71.20 for the report,
there are 17 (8x10") color photographs which are $6.00 each (total for photos
$102.00) and if you need these documents blue ribbon certified for court, there
is an additional cost of $20.00 for the certification.
>
> If you would like to purchase these documents and or the photographs, you may
either call with a Visa or Master Card number or send a check for payment.
>
> Thank you,
> Karen Remaley
> GENERAL MICROFILM INC
> 632 Files Cross Road
> Martinsburg, WV 25404
> (304) 267-5830 phone
> (304) 264-0862 fax
>
>
>
--------
601 XL kit N596SW reserved
Tail, control surfaces and both wings complete. Now working on fuselage
www.scottwaters.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182347#182347
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders... |
Someone asked for links to photos etc. Here is a link to a news report on an accident
in Brazil a few days ago,
http://zerohora.clicrbs.com.br/zerohora/jsp/default.jsp?uf=1&local=1§ion=Geral&newsID=a1852823.xml
Very sad.
Brian
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182351#182351
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders... |
At 05:48 AM 5/10/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>Someone asked for links to photos etc. Here is a link to a news report on
>an accident in Brazil a few days ago,
>
>http://zerohora.clicrbs.com.br/zerohora/jsp/default.jsp?uf=1&local=1§ion=Geral&newsID=a1852823.xml
>
>Very sad.
>
>Brian
Thanks, Scott. The article and photos are the beginning of the info package
that I will be giving to Mark. If any one else can point me to any similar
articles, I'll collect them also.
Terry
do no archive
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 8
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| Subject: | Course adjustment |
When I started scratch-building my 601XL in July of 2006, there was no more valuable
resource to me than the Matronics Zenith list. I found it helpful and at
times even inspirational. I saw it as a sort of water cooler where I could
hang out with serious builders who respected the designers plans and had the experience
I lacked. I quickly learned that not all contributions were of equal
value, but even a rookie builder like me could spot the posts that fell outside
the bell curve of tested reason.
Something has changed, in the list and in me, since the rash of fatal accidents.
List members are understandably concerned, and very predictably the number
of posts about accidents has grown in number and in emotional intensity. I get
that.
Ive never been bothered by the questioning, because I think that is a sign of being
discerning and aware of ones risk environment. What has caused me to rethink
my building strategy is the nearly endless, wildly speculative, and completely
irresponsible posts on wing & control surface modifications that I fear
could actually make the problem worse for anyone foolish enough to listen to the
handful of arm-chair experts who have declared a dozen different solutions
before the real investigation has even begun.
Other builders have chosen to sell their projects. Heres what Ive decided to do
instead:
Sign off all Zenith lists until my airframe is complete, for my own sanity and
productivity.
Send my $300 to Terry Phillips to do something constructive (not speculative)
about the problems we all face.
Order my BRS system, which was always a part of my plan.
Go to the garage and bend some metal or make some holes to fill with rivets.
Keep a close eye on the notice area of the Zenith Aircraft Builders Pages. If
there is a design issue, I am confident that Chris Heintz will address it.
For anyone who would like to contact me about building-related issues or just to
say hi, my address is larrywinger@gmail.com.
I wish you safety and success.
P.S. My hope for you is that the ones who are dragging this list down will get
off voluntarily or stop their endless, self-serving postings. Im not holding
my breath, however, because that would require a measure of self-awareness that
appears to be lacking. Sorry, that was my mini-rant. Now the healing can begin!
--------
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
601XL/Corvair from scratch
Control surfaces and wings complete.
Bottom rear fuselage and firewall done
Ready for wing jig alignment
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182366#182366
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
That is just a normal occurrence of bending metal that way. I normally overbend
a little so the middle comes out right then open up the overbend areas by lightly
hammering and checking often.
See example here:
http://mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=rlendon&project=113&category=0&log=21203&row=312
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182370#182370
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Course adjustment |
I do understand your feeling Larry. I will hang out here and let em make the noise
they do. If I hear of anything I think you need to know I'll shoot ya an
email.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182375#182375
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- |
Hi Andy,
We had this problem (aileron flutter), but fortunately, my pilot could
land safe, he was alone.
Sorry about my English.
Roberto Brito
Brazil
Zodiac XL 601 w/ 190hrs
Jabiru 3300
Enigma
Message 12
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| Subject: | using 87-0ctane with ethanol |
Hi guys,
Ive been pleased to read these posts on blended ethanol fuel as I fly a
Subaru with Bings. After the first 40 test hours, Ive only used
87-octane at 10% ethanol. Poor winter weather limited flying to once a
month and I have been concerned about water in the gasoline. At
preflight, I drain enough fuel from each tank to fill a qt glass jar
more than half way. Ive never found any sign of water or found less
than clear fuel so its drained back into 5-gallon storage tanks. The
oldest gas has been 10-12 weeks in the hangar before use and the
Subarus performance doesnt seem to have been affected. Ive
transferred older gas at the end of winter into my car with no apparent
problems. Ive never seen signs of water in the 601s gascolator, the
quart jar or the clear filter on the firewall. Im only optimistic that
perhaps the fuel Im using is from stations that have rapid turnover
fuel stocks and a handle on their water separation. Im going to fly a
lot more this year and have also acquired a set of 5-gallon tanks that
can be carried empty in the wing baggage area for ease of retrieving
fuel from the street.
Thats been the experience so far.
Do fly safe,
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol |
One factor that is reported as an issue with blended gas, I'll call
it E10, is altitude. Just curious what altitude you've been flying,
and at way temperatures.?
The users and nay-sayers of E10 seem to be miles apart. Something
must be missing in this discussion.
Ron
On May 10, 2008, at 2:10 PM, LarryMcFarland wrote:
> <larry@macsmachine.com>
>
>
> Hi guys,
>
> Ive been pleased to read these posts on blended ethanol fuel as I
> fly a Subaru with Bings. After the first 40 test hours, Ive only
> used 87-octane at 10% ethanol. Poor winter weather limited flying
> to once a month and I have been concerned about water in the
> gasoline. At preflight, I drain enough fuel from each tank to fill
> a qt glass jar more than half way. Ive never found any sign of
> water or found less than clear fuel so its drained back into 5-
> gallon storage tanks. The oldest gas has been 10-12 weeks in the
> hangar before use and the Subarus performance doesnt seem to have
> been affected. Ive transferred older gas at the end of winter into
> my car with no apparent problems. Ive never seen signs of water in
> the 601s gascolator, the quart jar or the clear filter on the
> firewall. Im only optimistic that perhaps the fuel Im using is
> from stations that have rapid turnover fuel stocks and a handle on
> their water separation. Im going to fly a lot more this year and
> have also acquired a set of 5-gallon tanks that can be carried
> empty in the wing baggage area for ease of retrieving fuel from the
> street.
>
> Thats been the experience so far.
>
> Do fly safe,
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol |
Hi Larry,
I would be more surprised if you did find water in your gascolator
when using ethanol in your fuel. The ethanol actually dissolves
water and passes it through your engine.
The problems I am aware of with ethanol in the fuel are potential
damage to rubber gaskets and hoses and reduced energy which reduces
aircraft range with this fuel.
Have fun,
Paul
XL fuselage
At 11:10 AM 5/10/2008, you wrote:
>Hi guys,
>
>I've been pleased to read these posts on blended ethanol fuel as I
>fly a Subaru with Bings. After the first 40 test hours, I've only
>used 87-octane at 10% ethanol. Poor winter weather limited flying to
>once a month and I have been concerned about water in the gasoline.
>At preflight, I drain enough fuel from each tank to fill a qt glass
>jar more than half way. I've never found any sign of water or found
>less than clear fuel so it's drained back into 5-gallon storage
>tanks. The oldest gas has been 10-12 weeks in the hangar before use
>and the Subaru's performance doesn't seem to have been affected.
>I've transferred older gas at the end of winter into my car with no
>apparent problems. I've never seen signs of water in the 601's
>gascolator, the quart jar or the clear filter on the firewall. I'm
>only optimistic that perhaps the fuel I'm using is from stations
>that have rapid turnover fuel stocks and a handle on their water
>separation. I'm going to fly a lot more this year and have also
>acquired a set of 5-gallon tanks that can be carried empty in the
>wing baggage area for ease of retrieving fuel from the "street".
>
>That's been the experience so far.
>
>Do fly safe,
>
>Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Course adjustment |
Zactly why I left.......................................................
----- Original Message -----
From: "lwinger" <larrywinger@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 8:49 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Course adjustment
>
> When I started scratch-building my 601XL in July of 2006, there was no
> more valuable resource to me than the Matronics Zenith list. I found it
> helpful and at times even inspirational. I saw it as a sort of water
> cooler where I could hang out with serious builders who respected the
> designer?Ts plans and had the experience I lacked. I quickly learned
> that not all contributions were of equal value, but even a rookie builder
> like me could spot the posts that fell outside the bell curve of tested
> reason.
>
> Something has changed, in the list and in me, since the rash of fatal
> accidents. List members are understandably concerned, and very
> predictably the number of posts about accidents has grown in number and in
> emotional intensity. I get that.
>
> I?Tve never been bothered by the questioning, because I think that is a
> sign of being discerning and aware of one?Ts risk environment. What has
> caused me to rethink my building strategy is the nearly endless, wildly
> speculative, and completely irresponsible posts on wing & control surface
> modifications that I fear could actually make the problem worse for anyone
> foolish enough to listen to the handful of arm-chair experts who have
> declared a dozen different solutions before the real investigation has
> even begun.
>
> Other builders have chosen to sell their projects. Here?Ts what I?Tve
> decided to do instead:
>
> ? Sign off all Zenith lists until my airframe is complete, for my own
> sanity and productivity.
> ? Send my $300 to Terry Phillips to do something constructive (not
> speculative) about the problems we all face.
> ? Order my BRS system, which was always a part of my plan.
> ? Go to the garage and bend some metal or make some holes to fill with
> rivets.
> ? Keep a close eye on the notice area of the Zenith Aircraft Builders
> Pages. If there is a design issue, I am confident that Chris Heintz will
> address it.
>
> For anyone who would like to contact me about building-related issues or
> just to say ?ohi,? my address is larrywinger@gmail.com.
>
> I wish you safety and success.
>
> P.S. My hope for you is that the ones who are dragging this list down will
> get off voluntarily or stop their endless, self-serving postings. I?Tm
> not holding my breath, however, because that would require a measure of
> self-awareness that appears to be lacking. Sorry, that was my mini-rant.
> Now the healing can begin!
>
> --------
> Larry Winger
> Tustin, CA
> 601XL/Corvair from scratch
> Control surfaces and wings complete.
> Bottom rear fuselage and firewall done
> Ready for wing jig alignment
> www.mykitlog.com/lwinger
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182366#182366
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | CH801 First Flight ! |
Well, I finally got the bird off the ground.
I made 2 flights today. The 1st was 1/2 hr long. I had high cylinder temps &
a very slight oil leak. I found out where the leak was from, Cyl #1 pushrod tube
seals. They weren't seated in far enough. I tapped them in & the leak is fixed,
confirmed by my 2nd flight. Also made the bottom cowl exhaust opening a little
larger but the 2nd flight still showed high cylinder temps. Probably need
to make a front centerline baffle as others have. Noticed that the engine baffles
that curve underneath the cylinders, connected by the springs, are too long
& don't allow enough air to pass thru the bottom of the cylinders. Anyone
have any other ideas ?
VERY short takeoff roll. Don't know the distance yet. Will get that later when
all the more important problems have been solved.
Rich
South Carolina
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders |
--
Since so many are wildly speculating about the cause of the accidents, bear with
me while I wildly speculate about what your expert will find. I understand everyones
desire for more information. but have any of you thought what you will
do with the information. After CH has reviewed the design who knows how many
times, ZAC says "outside" experts have looked at the design, and now you are
having another person look at the design. First, I think the likelihood of your
expert finding a "smoking gun" is highly unlikely. More likely he will find
areas that he might do something differently, just look at all the different aircraft
out there and how many different ways designers have chosen to solve the
same problems. One way of doing it is not patently better than another way
in many cases. So what do you intend to do with your information? Are you going
to modify your planes based upon the opinion of someone who has never designed
or built an aircraft? Is he even going to take the liability and make recommendations
on how to improve the design, or is he just going to tell you that
x is a potential problem? What if he says it's a sound design? Are you going to
jump back into building with both feet, finally content that the 601xl is safe,
or will that open up another wave of even wilder speculation of some strange
phenomenon that can't be tested or identified, but occurs under some unknown
circumstances? I think you need to ask yourselves these questions, and tailor
your investigation accordingly, or you will likely find that you spent a lot
of time, money, and effort to further confuse yourselves.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182403#182403
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: CH801 First Flight ! |
Too Kool. A big congrats to you.... Glad you have got the bird in the ai
r. I am just guessing here since my 801 is water cooled but the 801 flie
s at such a slow airspeed I bet the reduced airflow diminishes your engi
ne cooling as bad as it does mine. Ya got to love the very short takeoff
rolls as compared to all the other planes you have flown. A quick cauti
on,, don't park the plane into a strong wind with very little fuel and t
hen get out. It will try to lift off.... Congrats again Rich..
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Rich <richch801@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well, I finally got the bird off the ground. I made 2 flights today. The
1st was 1/2 hr long. I had high cylinder temps & a very slight oil leak
. I found out where the leak was from, Cyl #1 pushrod tube seals. They w
eren't seated in far enough. I tapped them in & the leak is fixed, confi
rmed by my 2nd flight. Also made the bottom cowl exhaust opening a littl
e larger but the 2nd flight still showed high cylinder temps. Probably n
eed to make a front centerline baffle as others have. Noticed that the e
ngine baffles that curve underneath the cylinders, connected by the spri
ngs, are too long & don't allow enough air to pass thru the bottom of th
e cylinders. Anyone have any other ideas ? VERY short takeoff roll. Don'
t know the distance yet. Will get that later when all the more important
problems have been solved. RichSouth CarolinaBe a better friend, newsho
========================
-========================
========================
========================
========================
========================
========================
======
_____________________________________________________________
Amazing cruises. Click here to find great deals.
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4uHUsWC4kpHwClk1epI
uJ1dz9A4kD27GQaLBxlUY1KPUqAqO/?count=1234567890
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? |
Unfortunately, I would think that no aerobatics would be self evident.
But it is not. Design limit g loads are misunderstood. If the design
ultimate is +6g -3g then usable is +4g -2g. (1.5X safety factor) For
positive load limit factors, FAR 23.337 (a) (1) requires +3.8g for
normal , (a) (2) requires 4.4g for utility category and (a) (3) requires
6.0g for aerobatic category. For negative load factors FAR 23.337 (b)
(1) requires -1.5g for normal, 1.6g for utility category and (a) (2)
requires -3g for aerobatic category. The airframe needs to withstand
the force for 3 seconds. Zenith has quoted +-6g and +6g -3g for
ultimate limits. Either way qualifies for /NORMAL /category. A good
number of light aircraft may be operated in utility category at /reduced
gross weight and at a narrower CG range. /It may be that production
aircraft actually have a higher safety factor due to not trying to shave
off that last pound. The closer an airframe is designed to the limit,
the less room we have for dumb pilot events.
Ken Lilja
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol |
If you are using gasoline with 10% alcohol in it, you won't see any
water in your samples or your gascolator because any water will be
held in suspension in the fuel by the alcohol -- up to a point, that
is. If enough water gets into the fuel, it will all settle out to the
bottom of the tank taking the alcohol with it. At this point, you will
now have gasoline with a significantly reduced octane rating floating
over a mixture of water and alcohol, neither substance will do nice
things for your engine. This is exactly how you test for alcohol in
gasoline, mix about 10% water with the gas and see if the apparent
water level increases as it settles out. So if you ever do find
"water" in your fuel tank while using gasohol, you might as well drain
the entire tank because the remaining gasoline in the tank will
probably have too low an octane rating to be safely used in your
Subaru engine.
When gas stations start using gasohol, they no longer have to drain
the water from their tank sumps because all the water gets pumped into
the gas tanks of their customers cars mixed with the fuel. On the
other hand, if the storage tank has a lot of water in it before that
first load of gasohol gets dumped into it, the next customers will
pump either low octane gas or the water/alcohol mix into their cars,
depending on whether the separation point ends up above or below the
level of the pump intakes.
Cold winter air can't hold a lot of water, so there isn't a lot to get
absorbed by the alcohol in the gasoline. Hot summer air can hold a lot
of water.
>
> >
>
>
> Hi guys,
>
> Ive been pleased to read these posts on blended ethanol fuel as I
> fly a Subaru with Bings. After the first 40 test hours, Ive only
> used 87-octane at 10% ethanol. Poor winter weather limited flying to
> once a month and I have been concerned about water in the gasoline.
> At preflight, I drain enough fuel from each tank to fill a qt glass
> jar more than half way. Ive never found any sign of water or found
> less than clear fuel so its drained back into 5-gallon storage
> tanks. The oldest gas has been 10-12 weeks in the hangar before use
> and the Subarus performance doesnt seem to have been affected.
> Ive transferred older gas at the end of winter into my car with no
> apparent problems. Ive never seen signs of water in the 601s
> gascolator, the quart jar or the clear filter on the firewall. Im
> only optimistic that perhaps the fuel Im using is from stations
> that have rapid turnover fuel stocks and a handle on their water
> separation. Im going to fly a lot more this year and have also
> acquired a set of 5-gallon tanks that can be carried empty in the
> wing baggage area for ease of retrieving fuel from the street.
>
> Thats been the experience so far.
>
> Do fly safe,
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
Message 21
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| Subject: | About another XL Down - Brazil |
Hi Folks,
Everything we know, is that Lopes was flying in the afternoon May 5,
17:00 +/-, no clouds, no rain and he lost the controls and fell to the
ground.
A witness, at least one, (a backwoodsman, who can't tell the difference
between an airplane and an oxen cart) said he heard a noise and saw the
aircraft making a big curve and entering a spiral, the witness said that
heard for many times the engine accelerating and decelerating, he shows
this way that he was trying to control the situation. He also said that
one of the wings "seemed" to have twisted and lifted in the process.
After that, he crashed to the trees.
For all of us, this is very sad. Lopes was my great friend, a good
pilot, he was an ag pilot with
almost 19.000 hrs, and here comes the question, what happened?
I know that I did a good work, that I used the best materials, regarding
the sheets, I used 2024-T3,
it's stronger than 6061-T6, on the bars, I used 6351-T6, it's also
permitted. As for the rivets I used
Emhart, that have the same specifications as Avex (both are not
structurals)
Our Brazilian Zodiacs look faster than yours, and Lopes's Zodiac was
flying 145/147 mph,
3000 ft with 3000 rpm on a Jabiru, he told for me that many times.
Well, all of us would like to know what happened, and ABRAEX (Brazilian
Association for
Experimental Aircraft) started to conduct an investigation and anything
that we say now is mere
speculation, then we need to wait for the investigation, after that I
will place the report here.
As for my plane, my pilot reported me, that when he traveled from
Atibaia to Franca, he was at
5000 ft, with 150 mph he entered a little turbulence and the plane had a
big flutter in ailerons,
immediately he cut down the throttle and pulled the nose up and
fortunately he came to landing without any problems. We used the piano
hinges in my ailerons.
After that we disassembled our Zodiac to check wings, stabilator, and so
on, and everything
was okay, then we had the aileron balance, we performed some tests and
we
had never more problems. After that, we called Lopes and recommended him
to carry out on
aileron balance, but he didn't.
I don't want to state hereby that it was the cause of the crash, but we
have already faced this problem as well.
We need to wait for the investigation results to know exactly what
happened and for the time being we have limited the speed with my plane
in 135 mph (cruise speed).
Regards,
Roberto Brito
Brazil.
Zodiac XL 601 w/ 190hrs
Jabiru 3300
Enigma
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders |
-- ...
In a message dated 5/8/2008 7:33:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ttp44@rkymtn.net writes:
"To attempt to determine whether the structure (including the skin), as
designed, has adequate strength to meet the published design loads of =B16G
," as
well as, for several optional tasks that may be done, if funding is availa
ble.
Just testing to see if it can take +/- 6g ?
I have faith that Chris got that right.
I thought to get to the bottom of this the wing was going to have to be
tested for flutter at various fuel loads,
do the ailerons need balancing, what effect wing lockers,and leading edge
fuel tanks,etc. Oh,and what about that rear spat attachment?
Would the time and money be better spent on a failure analysis expert to
look at the wrecks?
Actually I'm building, the 701, but of course I'm interested to see this
all get settled.
please do not archive
Phil Day
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Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders |
--
Steve
You raise good questions. I'll try to give you my answers, as best I can.
However, every member of the group would have their own answer.
At 03:29 PM 5/10/2008 -0700, dr_steve_adams wrote:
>Since so many are wildly speculating about the cause of the accidents,
>bear with me while I wildly speculate about what your expert will find. I
>understand everyones desire for more information. but have any of you
>thought what you will do with the information.
I have. Just what I do will depend a lot on what information is developed.
And I cannot answer in more detail until that information is available to
me.
>After CH has reviewed the design who knows how many times, ZAC says
>"outside" experts have looked at the design, and now you are having
>another person look at the design. First, I think the likelihood of your
>expert finding a "smoking gun" is highly unlikely. More likely he will
>find areas that he might do something differently, just look at all the
>different aircraft out there and how many different ways designers have
>chosen to solve the same problems. One way of doing it is not patently
>better than another way in many cases. So what do you intend to do with
>your information? Are you going to modify your planes based upon the
>opinion of someone who has never designed or built an aircraft?
As I said above, it depends on what he finds. If he finds, e.g., that a
wing locker significantly weakens the wing structure, then I will not
install the wing lockers that I bought and paid for, etc. Fine. I won't
have that storage space, but my stress will be reduced. CH has assured us
that design is sound. CH has also said that he would have an outside
engineer evaluate the results of last year's static tests. But when I asked
ZAC for the opportunity to review the outside engineer's report, ZAC never
responded. In an information vacuum, I hope that our own independent
engineering evaluation will be more valuable to me than an evaluation which
I am not permitted to review.
> Is he even going to take th!
> e liability and make recommendations on how to improve the design, or is
> he just going to tell you that x is a potential problem?
If you read the statement of work you will find that the first step is an
analysis of the wing structure to determine whether it can accommodate the
design loads of =B16G. I expect that he will find that the structure can
accommodate the design loads. My hope is that he will be able to look at
other loads, e.g., the torsion on the wing that flap extension would
produce. I guess, if I knew the answers now, I wouldn't want to pay someone
$300 of my own cash to do the analysis. However, I am a chemical engineer.
I haven't worked a structural analysis problem since I was an
undergraduate. And, one of the reasons I am a chemical engineer is that I
wasn't very good at structures. So, I prefer to pay someone who is better
at structures than I am.
Also, the statement of work includes options. Things that can be looked at
if there is funding available, and if it looks important. Hopefully, we
will be able to raise enough money to fund the flutter analysis. I would
really like to see Mark look at some of the other optional items.
Ultimately, if any group member decides that he personally must have a
particular optional analysis done, the group would be happy to funnel that
member's extra payment to Mark so that the particular analysis gets done.
>What if he says it's a sound design? Are you going to jump back into
>building with both feet, finally content that the 601xl is safe,
Content that it safe? I think that would fly in the face of the NTSB final
report on the Oakdale accident. But, I think that I would be willing to
proceed. Right now, I'm like Michael, the fun has gone out of it. Call me a
coward. Fine. For me this analysis is an attempt to reclaim my investment
of time and treasure. There is no guarantee of success. I think that every
group member is aware of that. But, at least we are working together trying
to find an answer to the question: Will I be safe flying my 601XL?
>or will that open up another wave of even wilder speculation of some
>strange phenomenon that can't be tested or identified, but occurs under
>some unknown circumstances?
I can seldom predict accurately what I'm going to do tomorrow, much less
what others might do 3 months from now.
>I think you need to ask yourselves these questions, and tailor your
>investigation accordingly, or you will likely find that you spent a lot of
>time, money, and effort to further confuse yourselves.
You are right about the time. I'd be embarrassed to tell you how much time
I have devoted to this effort, already, and we're barely started. But, I'm
committed to spending whatever time it takes to do a creditable job of
managing what is essentially an R&D contract. I do have some experience on
both sides of the R&D fence. If I can get by for $300 and change, I'll feel
like I got a bargain. That is ~0.5% of what I expect to spend on the
completed airplane. But, unless I get some answers, it's possible that I'll
never complete my 601XL. So, I look at the $300 as a small investment to
try to salvage the ~$40,000 I've already spent. I hope we'll get some
answers.
But you are right--there is no guarantee.
Terry
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 24
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| Subject: | Pros/Cons of Installing AN525 Aileron Piano Hinge Hardware? |
What are the pros and cons of installing AN525 screws at the inboard and outboard
positions of each aileron piano hinge half? (8 total)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182428#182428
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
Hi Ron,
Ron Lendon wrote:
> That is just a normal occurrence of bending metal that way. I normally overbend
a little so the middle comes out right then open up the overbend areas by
lightly hammering and checking often.
>
Thanks, but I'm not quite clear on what you're saying. Are you flattening out the
angle at the ends and trying to reduce the curve in this way?
Glenn
--------
Glenn Andressen
601XL- just started.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182430#182430
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| Subject: | Re: Pros/Cons of Installing AN525 Aileron Piano Hinge Hardware? |
I am using solid rivets (first 6) inboard and outboard on both flaps and
ailerons I know they are structural as
opposed to the non structural A5's we use now.
Jeff
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Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders... |
I think now we have 4 reports of aileron flutter and the pics we have show
the aileron dislodged from the hinge and the only part of the hinge that pulled
away from the pin and separated was at the outboard section and that section
has I believe 6 rivets close together. No one has answered the question as
to where the aileron was in conjunction to the wings. I am with Andy and think
flutter is the smoking gun. And I would be willing to bet the farm that most
do not use a tensi o meter to tighten the cables correctly. I have never
looked in the plans but I don't think (and I might be wrong) that the proper
tension is listed anywhere. I go by the book as far as cable size tension so if
it's there I just haven't seen it. BTW who's airplane is being used for these
tests? Are you simply using the plans? It would seem to me a retest of the
wings is in order but who is willing to sacrifice their wings and center
section for this test. I agree with the other persons post that a inspection of
the wrecks is a much better way of finding answers but that would mean you
would have to wait and most want answers now but I don't think anything fruitful
will come of this other than something is being done right now.
Jeff
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Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders... |
If flutter were the answer, then the You-tube shots of the Brazilian aircra
ft doing high-speed passes in situations very prone to flutter would have l
ikely shown a plane encountering flutter. They videos do not show anything
likely to indicate flutter. Further, the Brazilian aircraft apparently en
tered a spin as a prelude to crashing. I have not read much correlating sp
in and flutter. In fact, spins usually involve relatively low airspeeds in
which flutter is relatively rare. I also think flutter would make it less
likely a spin would flatten, not more likely. Flutter is an interesting p
henomenom, but I find it hard to relate to the crash in Brazil. It may hav
e something to do with the crashes where there were structural failures, bu
t even there it seems like an odd choice of failure mode.
Does anyone have NTSB reports which do involve flutter as the original caus
e of failure on some other airplane, where witnesses reported seeing the wi
ngs fold? What were their descriptions like?
I think the commenter who suggested that it is unlikely that a "smoking gun
" will be found is probably right. In order to have the data necessary to
really find out what caused the failures we would need a mass of records, a
nd I am pretty sure none of us want to maintain such copious and burdensome
records.
Nevertheless, there may be some measures which would do no harm, which migh
t prevent an accident. I thnk it is relatively benign to take steps to mak
e the control surfaces more resistant to flutter. Certainly it is a great
idea to adjust cable tensions carefully, and also a great idea to make sure
that you have balanced your control surfaces in accord with the design, or
with a modification approved by a knowledgeable engineer.
There may be other steps which would be relatively benign which might make
it easier to avoid in-service faiures. If we can discern which points on t
he wing failed, especially the spar, we can try to make those points easy t
o inspect. An inspection window, assuming one can be added without affecti
ng structural inegrity, near the attachment points would be useful. I also
think it would be easier to inspect for cracks if the spar were painted a
color likely to show a crack. A white primer might make cracks easier to s
ee. Perhaps some other color would be even more effective. We can also be
extremely careful to avoid stress risers in the vicinity of bolt holes, an
d make sure bolts are clean when inserted. Maybe it would be useful to che
ck the bolt holes and surrounding areas with dye penetrant before painting.
None of these would seem to be harmful to the design.
In operation, we can be very careful to describe hard landings, and to desc
ribe and perform appropriate inspections after hard landings. Perhaps a lo
w cost g-meter can be added, with some kind of maximum g force indecation,
and exceeding a certain value can trigger some very detailed inspection.
Some of the heroic measures suggeseted seem likely to add risks as rapidly
as they reduce other risks. Some would add to the structure, not knowing w
hether they are creating more or less potential for crack inititation. So
me have decided to abandon their projects, but this seems hasty. Unless th
ose abandoning projects also intend to abandon aviation, they would seem to
be reducing one type of risk and substituting an unknown risk. From all a
ccounts the 601 is easy to fly. There are a lot of competing aircraft whic
h are more challenging. To name one example, suppose our bold aviators swi
tch to early model Yankees, which had a reputation for squirrely handling.
It isn't hard to get a Yankee too slow and get into trouble. Stall/spin a
ccidents seldom have happy endings. Whatever change of course you decide t
o engage in, a reasonable precept would seem to be "do no harm."
From: Afterfxllc@aol.comDate: Sat, 10 May 2008 22:42:08 -0400Subject: Re: Z
enith-List: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders...To:
zenith-list@matronics.com
I think now we have 4 reports of aileron flutter and the pics we have show
the aileron dislodged from the hinge and the only part of the hinge that pu
lled away from the pin and separated was at the outboard section and that s
ection has I believe 6 rivets close together. No one has answered the quest
ion as to where the aileron was in conjunction to the wings. I am with Andy
and think flutter is the smoking gun. And I would be willing to bet the fa
rm that most do not use a tensi o meter to tighten the cables correctly. I
have never looked in the plans but I don't think (and I might be wrong) tha
t the proper tension is listed anywhere. I go by the book as far as cable s
ize tension so if it's there I just haven't seen it. BTW who's airplane is
being used for these tests? Are you simply using the plans? It would seem t
o me a retest of the wings is in order but who is willing to sacrifice thei
r wings and center section for this test. I agree with the other persons po
st that a inspection of the wrecks is a much better way of finding answers
but that would mean you would have to wait and most want answers now but I
don't think anything fruitful will come of this other than something is bei
ng done right now.
Jeff
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Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders... |
Jeff,
In my HD Construction Manual on page 29 the cable tension is
given as "30 to 40 lbs." You can also find what other builders are using in
the archives. There is no dearth of information available on the designer
specified or builder recommended cable tension values.
Jeff Davidson
Do not archive
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in"
responders...
I think now we have 4 reports of aileron flutter and the pics we have show
the aileron dislodged from the hinge and the only part of the hinge that
pulled away from the pin and separated was at the outboard section and that
section has I believe 6 rivets close together. No one has answered the
question as to where the aileron was in conjunction to the wings. I am with
Andy and think flutter is the smoking gun. And I would be willing to bet the
farm that most do not use a tensi o meter to tighten the cables correctly. I
have never looked in the plans but I don't think (and I might be wrong) that
the proper tension is listed anywhere. I go by the book as far as cable size
tension so if it's there I just haven't seen it. BTW who's airplane is being
used for these tests? Are you simply using the plans? It would seem to me a
retest of the wings is in order but who is willing to sacrifice their wings
and center section for this test. I agree with the other persons post that a
inspection of the wrecks is a much better way of finding answers but that
would mean you would have to wait and most want answers now but I don't
think anything fruitful will come of this other than something is being done
right now.
Jeff
_____
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<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001> twists on
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders |
--
Well said Steve. If I got that worked up over this thing I would find another
design to build.
do not archive
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182443#182443
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
I am talking about one bend. I bend and check the angle in the middle of the length
of the bend. Then I qualify the rest of the piece so the same angle is
represented for the entire length of the piece. What this entails is checking
and adjusting every inch or so along the whole length of the part.
Is that more clear?
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
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Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders... |
Take a look at http://www.macsmachine.com/ and find the Cable Tools link. Even shows how to calibrate em.
See, Learn, DO.
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Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
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| Subject: | Re: Pros/Cons of Installing AN525 Aileron Piano Hinge Hardware? |
[quote="Afterfxllc(at)aol.com"]I am using solid rivets (first 6) inboard and outboard
on both flaps and ailerons I know they are structural as
opposed to the non structural A5's we use now.
Jeff
Cherrymax rivets might be another option for those that do not have a impact
rivet gun /bucking bar as you can use the pneumatic / hydraulic gun to pull
them. Cheers
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