Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:05 AM - Re: Aerobatics? (dstasch)
2. 12:52 AM - Re: Bending- again... (Jugle)
3. 03:04 AM - Re: CH801 First Flight ! (Iberplanes IGL)
4. 04:16 AM - Re: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders... (Ashley)
5. 04:33 AM - Re: Re: Bending- again... (Graeme Bell)
6. 07:05 AM - helping kids build a plane (Juan Vega)
7. 07:19 AM - Re: Re: Aerobatics? (Larry Hursh)
8. 09:56 AM - Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? (leinad)
9. 10:26 AM - Proper concern vs. uninformed speculation vs. harmful back-seat driving (Jay Maynard)
10. 11:25 AM - Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? (Gig Giacona)
11. 11:51 AM - Re: helping kids build a plane (JohnDRead@aol.com)
12. 11:55 AM - Re: Course adjustment (James E. Lanier)
13. 12:00 PM - Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (Jbellinger)
14. 12:04 PM - Re: About another XL Down - Brazil (ashontz)
15. 01:32 PM - Re: Bending- again... (ashontz)
16. 02:03 PM - Re: helping kids build a plane (Juan Vega)
17. 02:10 PM - Building your CH601XL Builder's series DVDs (Jon Croke)
18. 02:34 PM - Re: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders -- (Terry Phillips)
19. 02:42 PM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (Jeff)
20. 03:03 PM - Re: Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? (n801bh@netzero.com)
21. 03:33 PM - Re: Bending- again... (Jugle)
22. 03:45 PM - Re: Bending- again... (ashontz)
23. 03:54 PM - Re: Bending- again... (ashontz)
24. 04:12 PM - Re: Bending- again... (Jugle)
25. 04:21 PM - Re: Re: Bending- again... (raymondj)
26. 04:24 PM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (Dave Austin)
27. 04:28 PM - Chat Room Reminder for "Digesters" (George Race)
28. 04:32 PM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (William Dominguez)
29. 04:32 PM - Re: Bending- again... (ashontz)
30. 04:53 PM - Re: Bending- again... (Jugle)
31. 05:26 PM - Re: Bending- again... (Ron Lendon)
32. 05:33 PM - Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) (Andrewlieser)
33. 05:44 PM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (Jeff)
34. 05:50 PM - Re: Re: Bending- again... (Graeme)
35. 05:50 PM - Re: Bending- again... (ashontz)
36. 05:52 PM - Re: Bending- again... (ashontz)
37. 05:56 PM - Re: Bending- again... (Jugle)
38. 06:30 PM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (Frank Roskind)
39. 07:19 PM - Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- (Yak52@aol.com)
40. 07:19 PM - Re: Bending- again... (kmccune)
41. 07:29 PM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (William Dominguez)
42. 09:16 PM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (ZodieRocket)
43. 11:21 PM - Re: Bending- again... (TxDave)
Message 1
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DO NOT ARCHIVE (forgot to put that in my initial post)
Thank you for all your responses both here and through e-mail, you've been very
reassuring in my decision to go with the 601xl!
I did receive a lot of advice regarding SONEX - both good and bad.
SONEX was the first plane I looked at when I started researching my project and
if I were building just for myself, I believe SONEX would be a great choice.
However I realized that most of the time I'm flying, I have a passenger riding
along with me. The majority of my flying is either x-country, scenic flights,
or just being out to give people a ride. It would seem that not too many of
my friends or family are interested in doing a loop or spin along the way, which
is why I believe the 601xl is the better choice for me right now. It'll
be more comfortable for my passengers and has a bit more of a factory look that
I expect will be a less scary to my mom than the more homebuilt look of the
SONEX :)
I have gathered most of my tools to start and I'm excited to be ordering the rudder
kit next month. I also expect you all will be hearing a lot from me over
the next 20 or 30 years it takes me to complete this project :)
Thanks again!
Take care,
David
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182451#182451
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
Yep, that part is clear Ron, but this only ensures an equal flange angle all the
way along... the overall curve of along the length remains. It's simply not
straight.
Glenn.
Ron Lendon wrote:
> I am talking about one bend. I bend and check the angle in the middle of the
length of the bend. Then I qualify the rest of the piece so the same angle is
represented for the entire length of the piece. What this entails is checking
and adjusting every inch or so along the whole length of the part.
>
> Is that more clear?
--------
Glenn Andressen
601XL- just started.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182453#182453
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| Subject: | Re: CH801 First Flight ! |
Congratulations on your achievement.
My 601 is getting bigger day after day, and I think it would be finished
next year !!
Take care
Alberto Martin
Iberplanes IGL
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Espa=F1a
----- Original Message -----
From: Rich
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 10:42 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: CH801 First Flight !
Well, I finally got the bird off the ground.
I made 2 flights today. The 1st was 1/2 hr long. I had high cylinder
temps & a very slight oil leak. I found out where the leak was from, Cyl
#1 pushrod tube seals. They weren't seated in far enough. I tapped them
in & the leak is fixed, confirmed by my 2nd flight. Also made the bottom
cowl exhaust opening a little larger but the 2nd flight still showed
high cylinder temps. Probably need to make a front centerline baffle as
others have. Noticed that the engine baffles that curve underneath the
cylinders, connected by the springs, are too long & don't allow enough
air to pass thru the bottom of the cylinders. Anyone have any other
ideas ?
VERY short takeoff roll. Don't know the distance yet. Will get that
later when all the more important problems have been solved.
Rich
South Carolina
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Be a better friend, newshound, and
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders... |
My plans on 6-B-23 dated 02/05 show cable tension 30 lbs +/- 5.
Floyd Wilkes
601 XL O-200
Almost done
----- Original Message -----
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm
in" responders...
I think now we have 4 reports of aileron flutter and the pics we have
show the aileron dislodged from the hinge and the only part of the hinge
that pulled away from the pin and separated was at the outboard section
and that section has I believe 6 rivets close together. No one has
answered the question as to where the aileron was in conjunction to the
wings. I am with Andy and think flutter is the smoking gun. And I would
be willing to bet the farm that most do not use a tensi o meter to
tighten the cables correctly. I have never looked in the plans but I
don't think (and I might be wrong) that the proper tension is listed
anywhere. I go by the book as far as cable size tension so if it's there
I just haven't seen it. BTW who's airplane is being used for these
tests? Are you simply using the plans? It would seem to me a retest of
the wings is in order but who is willing to sacrifice their wings and
center section for this test. I agree with the other persons post that a
inspection of the wrecks is a much better way of finding answers but
that would mean you would have to wait and most want answers now but I
don't think anything fruitful will come of this other than something is
being done right now.
Jeff
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
Hi Glen
I to have the dave Clay brake mine is 2.5 meters long.
I have no touble bending the longerons of the Ch701 end up 20mm x 22mm .o40
angle.
I have bolts every .5meter
The bender is straight the bends are ok over the length but like you also
have a Bow over the length
when removed from bender.
approx 20mm over 1.8meters.
I am sure when I assemble Aircraft they will straighten in construction.
But I to don't know why they end up with a bow.
Graemecns
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jugle" <glenn@eastcoastit.net>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 5:48 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Bending- again...
>
> Yep, that part is clear Ron, but this only ensures an equal flange angle
> all the way along... the overall curve of along the length remains. It's
> simply not straight.
>
> Glenn.
>
>
> Ron Lendon wrote:
>> I am talking about one bend. I bend and check the angle in the middle of
>> the length of the bend. Then I qualify the rest of the piece so the same
>> angle is represented for the entire length of the piece. What this
>> entails is checking and adjusting every inch or so along the whole length
>> of the part.
>>
>> Is that more clear?
>
>
> --------
> Glenn Andressen
> 601XL- just started.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182453#182453
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 10/04/2008 17:36
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | helping kids build a plane |
Members:
You may have heard on the news a few months back about a you man that built his
own plane (lancair) and flew it around the world. What made this even better
is he is the youngest and a first Blackman to do it. An amazingly driven young
man!
Barington Irving has created an organization "Experience Aviation" that teaches
young kids about flying and the aircraft industry. As a project they have decided
to build a 601 xl with my assistance. We will be building it with 30 kids,
some from inner city youth programs, and some from George T. Baker School
out of Miami, Florida. It is a ten week program, and I am setting up the master
bulding schedule to include trips to various Jet engine manufacturing facilities,
aircraft repair facilities and other aircraft related trips. Nothing Cooler
than watching a UAV Jet engine spool up!
You can go online: www.experienceaviation.org
This entire project will be reported by Local, CNN and Fox News. It will be built
at Opa-Locka Airport, FLorida.
I need your assistance on a few things. Does any one have any avionics they want
to donate for use with an 0-200? We just need the basics. Pretty much everything
else has been provided for, Airframe(thank you to Sebastian and his family),
and engine. Fire wall forward is in process, i think we can get someone
to donate that since the entire FWF kit is under $2,000.00
Just need avionics and perhaps Strobes.
I am avialable on this list and my cell is 813-784-7312
Thank you in advance for any ideas or support. This county is very much in short
supply of tradesmen and this is a way to get kids that are borderline dropping
out to consider a trade in aviation.
Juan Vega, Jr.
Chairman
Britt Metals Processing, Inc.
www.brittmetals.com
Message 7
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dstasch <zstasch@yahoo.com> wrote:
DO NOT ARCHIVE (forgot to put that in my initial post)
Thank you for all your responses both here and through e-mail, you've been very
reassuring in my decision to go with the 601xl!
I did receive a lot of advice regarding SONEX - both good and bad. David,
Glad you have decided on the XL over the Sonex. I''m positive if you ever rode
in an XL, you would be totally sold on it. I was in Mexico MO last week and
Roger gave me a ride in their demonstrator. I've flown and ridden in several
Light Sport aircraft and this one IS the best ride of all.
I would be placing my order for any kit as soon as you can. The lead times are
getting longer and longer on most of the component kits. I had ordered my
rudder kit and that took only a couple of weeks to arrive. I completed that and
KNEW this was the kit for me. I ordered the tail kit next. That took approximately
9 weeks to arrive. I ordered my wing section on Dec 4th and just picked
that up at the factory last week. I am being told by Joyce at Zenith, there
is an 18 week lead time for the fuselage section. I'd suggest you order as
far ahead as you possibly can. Joyce said they are starting to receive a lot
of orders from Russia now, so your timing of your components is the thing that
might hold you back from building. If I could have, I would have ordered the
entire aircraft the first time. I don't have all that much room in my garage
without kicking my wife out of it. Gotta keep the wife happy, yah know? :)
Happy building!
Larry Hursh
CH601XL (Building from Kits - Just beginning)
(N601LL Reserved)
SkyriderSBN@Yahoo.com
Keep your eyes skyward - always!
Do Not Archive
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? |
Ben,
I'd like to know how you estimated the G forces.
If I do some simple calculations, based on a guess of how fast the plane was going
I get a much higher answer than your estimated 1.8 max during the second pull
up.
The plane looks to be going about 200 feet per second.. or 137 mph, as the pilot
traded altitude for speed and the plane is capable of that speed in normal cruise.
(This is where I could be completely wrong) He arrested all of that speed
in the direction of the pass in 2 and half seconds. That gives an average
acceleration of -80 feet/sec/sec during the 2.5 seconds the velocity was bled
off. Dividing by 32 gives us 2.5 Gs if the deceleration were uniformly distributed
through out the pull up, but much more likely there were almost no Gs at
the end since the speed was almost gone, so the distribution of the force due
to the pull up probably peeked near 5 G at the bottom, so that the average could
still be 2.5. You also have to add 1 G for the steady state level flight,
as that is what the wings are normally holding up. So there may have been a
peek G at around 6 at the bottom of the final pull up. And that only if the
pilot put in perfectly smooth gradual input, and there were zero turbulence.
What struck me when I saw the video the first time was here was a very experienced
agricultural pilot flying his 601XL like it were a crop duster.
[quote="n801bh(at)netzero.com"]The pull up at the far end of the field is kinda
hard to really see but I will guess 2.2- 2.5 G's. The last pass right in front
of the camera is maybe 1.5 -1.8 at best and flown real smooth. Remember one
can make some impressive manauvers and if kept smooth in control imputs it hardly
reaches more then 1.5 G's.. Well within range of a +6, -3 airframe..
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Sabrina" wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlpLeVvep7k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X8GcFqTpYM
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.ph================================================================================================bsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
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> [b]
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182502#182502
Message 9
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| Subject: | Proper concern vs. uninformed speculation vs. harmful back-seat |
driving
Larry's recent post about changing course crystallized something I've been
thinking about. Unlike most folks here, I don't have an investment of years
of effort at risk; I'm trading that for a six-figure sum and years of loan
payments. Like nearly everyone here, however, my life is at risk. That's
true of all aviation; the only thing up for debate is the magnitude of that
risk.
There's been a lot of discussion on this list about the recent series of
Zodiac XL crashes and their possible causes. Some folks take exception to
some of it, and a few have left the list rather than read it. Others have
been led to give up on their projects, in one case dealing a fatal blow to a
lifelong dream. I understand, and share, the sadness associated with that.
My Zodiac represents the culmination of a 20-year dream of my own. If I were
to decide to bag it, I'd be left with an expensive aircraft and have to take
a substantial (tens of thousands of dollars) loss on my investment, if I
could sell it at all.
However, we can't just bury our heads in the sand and ignore what appears to
be a substantial issue with the aircraft, its builders, its pilots, those
who maintain and inspect them, or some combination of the above. To do so
is, at best hopelessly naive, and at worst criminally foolish.
I don't know what those who have been complaining of the discussion on the
list would have us do. I'd like to hear it. I will say, however, that "wait
for the NTSB to come up with an answer" is not likely to be accepted, both
because they've been working for well over a year on one accident with no
end in sight, and because it's not human nature to wait patiently for
answers to a question with one's life potentially at stake.
Tho those who may blame me in any way for problems they perceive with the
list, I apologize. I'm not trying to come in here and destroy people's
dreams; I'm just trying to enjoy my own in the company of others who share
it. I'm not interested in having it kill me, however.
What should we do?
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!)
Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? |
While it is true that many if not most basic aerobatic maneuvers can be down with
sub 2 G's one must remember that when the same aerobatic maneuver fails significantly
more stress can be inflicted on the airframe. I have a friend that
used to fly competition aerobatics at the international level. During a practice
flight he had something come loose in the cockpit once that for a very short
time jammed the stick. He pulled out of the simple loop but it took him 9 Gs
to do it. Afterwords the entire plane was taken apart to check for stress failures.
I hear about a 601XL doing loops or other benign aerobatics I have to wonder if
the pilot was trained in aerobatics or was "self taught." And if they were trained
what was the extent of that training? There are lots of weekend and even
one day aerobatic familiarization classes out there. When you come out of those
your are NOT an aerobatic pilot. I know, I've taken two of them. And while
I technically know how to do several maneuvers and could pull them off given the
right aircraft I don't think of myself as an aerobatic pilot any more that
I think of myself as a NASCAR driver because I've driven a few laps in a NASCAR
auto.
When you see these videos of aerobatics in a 601 ask yourself, how many times did
that pilot practice that maneuver before he had it taped and how many times
did he botch it?
None of the aerobatic pilots I know would do this stuff in a 601 because that isn't
what it was built for. An airplane is like any other tool. You don't use
a hammer to drive a screw and those that do tend to break stuff.
leinad wrote:
> Remember one can make some impressive manauvers and if kept smooth in control
imputs it hardly reaches more then 1.5 G's.. Well within range of a +6, -3 airframe..
> do not archive
>
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182520#182520
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: helping kids build a plane |
Great idea. How is your program insured? I have been trying to do a similar
program in Colorado and have run into nothing but insurance brick walls.
John Read
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 5/11/2008 8:06:10 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
amyvega2005@earthlink.net writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega <amyvega2005@earthlink.net>
Members:
You may have heard on the news a few months back about a you man that built
his own plane (lancair) and flew it around the world. What made this even
better is he is the youngest and a first Blackman to do it. An amazingly driven
young man!
Barington Irving has created an organization "Experience Aviation" that
teaches young kids about flying and the aircraft industry. As a project they
have decided to build a 601 xl with my assistance. We will be building it with
30 kids, some from inner city youth programs, and some from George T. Baker
School out of Miami, Florida. It is a ten week program, and I am setting up
the master bulding schedule to include trips to various Jet engine
manufacturing facilities, aircraft repair facilities and other aircraft related
trips.
Nothing Cooler than watching a UAV Jet engine spool up!
You can go online: www.experienceaviation.org
This entire project will be reported by Local, CNN and Fox News. It will be
built at Opa-Locka Airport, FLorida.
I need your assistance on a few things. Does any one have any avionics they
want to donate for use with an 0-200? We just need the basics. Pretty much
everything else has been provided for, Airframe(thank you to Sebastian and
his family), and engine. Fire wall forward is in process, i think we can get
someone to donate that since the entire FWF kit is under $2,000.00
Just need avionics and perhaps Strobes.
I am avialable on this list and my cell is 813-784-7312
Thank you in advance for any ideas or support. This county is very much in
short supply of tradesmen and this is a way to get kids that are borderline
dropping out to consider a trade in aviation.
Juan Vega, Jr.
Chairman
Britt Metals Processing, Inc.
www.brittmetals.com
**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
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| Subject: | Re: Course adjustment |
I too have made a course adjustment, but in a completely different
direction. But first, to comment on your reasoning, I find part of your
post to be valid. It is not the postings that express concern that
"bring down" the list as one member put it. I have no problem with
people talking about possible improvements with the structural integrity
of the aircraft. Both sides of the issue have been expressed here and
readers can make their own decisions. If you are not an engineer, then
maybe you shouldn't modify your aircraft. The reason for all of the
speculation is that this aircraft (in my opinion) has had more than it's
share of in-flight structural failures. Statistically, the failure rate
is high enough that many reasonable people could conclude that there may
be a problem with this aircraft. What is concerning to me, are the
apologists for the design that seem to blame everything on the pilot or
the builder (Keep in mind that at least two of these reported in-flight
failures were factory-built aircraft). Pilots make errors in other
aircraft as well, but this is the aircraft with recent (reported)
in-flight structural failures. If it is harmful to suggest changes to
the design, then the same could be said for those that insist the design
is sound in light of the statistical data. Until the NTSB and/or the
designer find and rectify this problem (if there is a problem), I would
consider flying this plane to be risky at best.
My "course adjustment" is to NOT build this plane. Fortunately, my
economic investment in this aircraft is minimal at this point and that
makes it much easier for me to make this decision. I consider the money
spent and the work done so far to be strictly an educational expense.
Frankly, I don't know what I would do if I had substantial money
invested in the project. I have decided to devote my attention to
another design that I have chosen. It has an excellent record and has
been flying for over 40 years. Please understand that I do not mean to
offend anyone here but I felt the need to express my opinion on the
subject. I respect all of your opinions and I hope that you will respect
mine.
Jim
lwinger wrote:
>
> When I started scratch-building my 601XL in July of 2006, there was no more valuable
resource to me than the Matronics Zenith list. I found it helpful and
at times even inspirational. I saw it as a sort of water cooler where I could
hang out with serious builders who respected the designers plans and had the
experience I lacked. I quickly learned that not all contributions were of equal
value, but even a rookie builder like me could spot the posts that fell outside
the bell curve of tested reason.
>
> Something has changed, in the list and in me, since the rash of fatal accidents.
List members are understandably concerned, and very predictably the number
of posts about accidents has grown in number and in emotional intensity. I
get that.
>
> Ive never been bothered by the questioning, because I think that is a sign of
being discerning and aware of ones risk environment. What has caused me to rethink
my building strategy is the nearly endless, wildly speculative, and completely
irresponsible posts on wing & control surface modifications that I fear
could actually make the problem worse for anyone foolish enough to listen to
the handful of arm-chair experts who have declared a dozen different solutions
before the real investigation has even begun.
>
> Other builders have chosen to sell their projects. Heres what Ive decided to
do instead:
>
> Sign off all Zenith lists until my airframe is complete, for my own sanity
and productivity.
> Send my $300 to Terry Phillips to do something constructive (not speculative)
about the problems we all face.
> Order my BRS system, which was always a part of my plan.
> Go to the garage and bend some metal or make some holes to fill with rivets.
> Keep a close eye on the notice area of the Zenith Aircraft Builders Pages.
If there is a design issue, I am confident that Chris Heintz will address it.
>
> For anyone who would like to contact me about building-related issues or just
to say hi, my address is larrywinger@gmail.com.
>
> I wish you safety and success.
>
> P.S. My hope for you is that the ones who are dragging this list down will get
off voluntarily or stop their endless, self-serving postings. Im not holding
my breath, however, because that would require a measure of self-awareness that
appears to be lacking. Sorry, that was my mini-rant. Now the healing can
begin!
>
> --------
> Larry Winger
> Tustin, CA
> 601XL/Corvair from scratch
> Control surfaces and wings complete.
> Bottom rear fuselage and firewall done
> Ready for wing jig alignment
> www.mykitlog.com/lwinger
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182366#182366
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? |
Howdy! I'm new to this list.
I just started on a rudder (I've been planning to build a zodiac for about a decade,
but I finally have both the space and the funds) and then discovered all
the scuttlebutt about the recent XL crashes. Without making statements about
the XL, we know that the HD is a very time-tested and proven design.
Besides the pre-drilled skins and some speed, what would I lose if I decided to
build a 601HD instead of a 601XL? Has anyone here built and flown both so they
can give an A/B comparison?
Just something I've been mulling over in my head.
Thanks,
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182530#182530
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| Subject: | Re: About another XL Down - Brazil |
Roberto,
I'm looking into balancing the ailerons too. Could you please send pictures and
drawings of EXACTLY what you did to balance them. I suspect this is the problem.
I'm also using the piano hinges.
Thanks,
Andy
[quote="lenabeto(at)uol.com.br"]Hi Folks,
Everything we know, is that Lopes was flying in the afternoon May 5, 17:00 +/-,
no clouds, no rain and he lost the controls and fell to the ground.
A witness, at least one, (a backwoodsman, who can?t tell the difference between
an airplane and an oxen cart) said he heard a noise and saw the aircraft making
a big curve and entering a spiral, the witness said that heard for many
times the engine accelerating and decelerating, he shows this way that he was
trying to control the situation. He also said that one of the wings "seemed"
to have twisted and lifted in the process.
After that, he crashed to the trees.
For all of us, this is very sad. Lopes was my great friend, a good pilot, he was
an ag pilot with
almost 19.000 hrs, and here comes the question, what happened?
I know that I did a good work, that I used the best materials, regarding the sheets,
I used 2024-T3,
it?s stronger than 6061-T6, on the bars, I used 6351-T6, it?s also permitted.
As for the rivets I used
Emhart, that have the same specifications as Avex (both are not structurals)
Our Brazilian Zodiacs look faster than yours, and Lopes?s Zodiac was flying 145/147
mph,
3000 ft with 3000 rpm on a Jabiru, he told for me that many times.
Well, all of us would like to know what happened, and ABRAEX (Brazilian Association
for
Experimental Aircraft) started to conduct an investigation and anything that we
say now is mere
speculation, then we need to wait for the investigation, after that I will place
the report here.
As for my plane, my pilot reported me, that when he traveled from Atibaia to Franca,
he was at
5000 ft, with 150 mph he entered a little turbulence and the plane had a big flutter
in ailerons,
immediately he cut down the throttle and pulled the nose up and fortunately he
came to landing without any problems. We used the piano hinges in my ailerons.
After that we disassembled our Zodiac to check wings, stabilator, and so on, and
everything
was okay, then we had the aileron balance, we performed some tests and we
had never more problems. After that, we called Lopes and recommended him to carry
out on
aileron balance, but he didn?t.
I don?t want to state hereby that it was the cause of the crash, but we have already
faced this problem as well.
We need to wait for the investigation results to know exactly what happened and
for the time being we have limited the speed with my plane in 135 mph (cruise
speed).
Regards,
Roberto Brito
Brazil.
Zodiac XL 601 w/ 190hrs
Jabiru 3300
Enigma
> [b]
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182532#182532
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
I wouldn't construct something with a bow (banana shape) in it. It should be straight.
To correct the part you could try a small crimp every 6 inches til it's
straight. To correct the brake, find out why the bend line you're putting in
the part is not straight. Basically you're beding around a curved line instead
of a stright line for some reason, hence the bowed banana. Either the bending
tongue or the clamp is not straight, or the part is slipping in the brake (most
likely in the middle where the most concentrated force is) or the clamp isn't
holding it down hard enough. Doesn't take much at all to create a banana bow.
One mm out of straight is enough to notice a slight banana. Another possible
problem is the distance between the bending tongue (the part of the brake you
lift on to make the bend) and the clamp face you're benidn around. As per Ron
Lendon, you'll notice the middle doesn't make as tight of an acute angle as
the ends when completed because the outer edges don't have any material on the
outside to resist the bending force, hence the ends bend easier. With that in
mind, and a continuous hinge style brake, the tongue is by definition quite
far from the axis of rotation, possibly enough to create nice banana shaped parts.
If you look closely at the design for the small Zenith brake, the axis of
rotation of the tongue face is actually dead nuts at the edge of the clamp minus
.050 for the material itself, and axis is about 5/32" above the brake bed
to allow the face of the tongue to actually travel around the front edge of the
1/4" thick tongue; in a sense ROLLING the bend around the clamp face rather
than just pressing it into it like a aluminum house siding bending brake.
That bow is why industrial bending brakes are so big and heavy just for bening
fairly thin sheet, the beef is for the accuracy. You need to go back and look
at how to improve accuracy on that brake, it's not impossible, but you need to
be aware of it to have repeatable quality results.
graeme(at)coletoolcentre. wrote:
> Hi Glen
>
> I to have the dave Clay brake mine is 2.5 meters long.
> I have no touble bending the longerons of the Ch701 end up 20mm x 22mm .o40
> angle.
> I have bolts every .5meter
> The bender is straight the bends are ok over the length but like you also
> have a Bow over the length
> when removed from bender.
> approx 20mm over 1.8meters.
> I am sure when I assemble Aircraft they will straighten in construction.
> But I to don't know why they end up with a bow.
>
> Graemecns
>
>
>
> ---
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182540#182540
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: helping kids build a plane |
JOhn,
Call Irving, check his website, he is up on that more than I am.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: JohnDRead@aol.com
>Sent: May 11, 2008 2:49 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: helping kids build a plane
>
>Great idea. How is your program insured? I have been trying to do a similar
>program in Colorado and have run into nothing but insurance brick walls.
>
>John Read
>
>Phone: 303-648-3261
>Fax: 303-648-3262
>Cell: 719-494-4567
>
>
>In a message dated 5/11/2008 8:06:10 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
>amyvega2005@earthlink.net writes:
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega <amyvega2005@earthlink.net>
>
>Members:
>
>You may have heard on the news a few months back about a you man that built
>his own plane (lancair) and flew it around the world. What made this even
>better is he is the youngest and a first Blackman to do it. An amazingly driven
>young man!
>
>Barington Irving has created an organization "Experience Aviation" that
>teaches young kids about flying and the aircraft industry. As a project they
>have decided to build a 601 xl with my assistance. We will be building it with
>30 kids, some from inner city youth programs, and some from George T. Baker
>School out of Miami, Florida. It is a ten week program, and I am setting up
>the master bulding schedule to include trips to various Jet engine
>manufacturing facilities, aircraft repair facilities and other aircraft related
trips.
>Nothing Cooler than watching a UAV Jet engine spool up!
>
>You can go online: www.experienceaviation.org
>
>This entire project will be reported by Local, CNN and Fox News. It will be
>built at Opa-Locka Airport, FLorida.
>
>I need your assistance on a few things. Does any one have any avionics they
>want to donate for use with an 0-200? We just need the basics. Pretty much
>everything else has been provided for, Airframe(thank you to Sebastian and
>his family), and engine. Fire wall forward is in process, i think we can get
>someone to donate that since the entire FWF kit is under $2,000.00
>
>Just need avionics and perhaps Strobes.
>
>I am avialable on this list and my cell is 813-784-7312
>
>Thank you in advance for any ideas or support. This county is very much in
>short supply of tradesmen and this is a way to get kids that are borderline
>dropping out to consider a trade in aviation.
>
>Juan Vega, Jr.
>Chairman
>Britt Metals Processing, Inc.
>
>www.brittmetals.com
>
>
>**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
>favorites at AOL Food.
>(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
Message 17
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| Subject: | Building your CH601XL Builder's series DVDs |
HomebuiltHELP is announcing the first in a series of builder video DVDs
that provide a step by step demonstration of building the CH601XL kit.
The first volume, a 2 DVD set, is entitled: Fuselage Part 1 and is now
available. Additional volumes will follow and be announced here.
Details and sample pictures from the video are available at
http://homebuilthelp.com/CH601XL/fuselage1.htm
The fuselage build depicted in this series was supervised by Gus Warren,
who has built several 601s including the one on the Kitplanes cover last
year. (www.FlyWithGus.com)
Many thanks to all! Our goal is to make your building experience a
little more enjoyable!
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- "I'm in" responders |
--
At 10:21 AM 5/9/2008 -0700, Steve Shuck wrote:
>Terry will you keep us posted as far as the amount of response you receive.
>My check is in the mail.
Steve
We now have committments from 20 builders to support the analysis effort.
Twenty builders equates to $6,000 which gets us started. I drafted a
contract yesterday. Al reviewed it and suggested some changes. Today I sent
the revised contract to Mark Sensmeier for his review.
The pledged funds should cover us for the basic structural analysis and the
flutter analysis, plus purchasing the Oakdale photos from the NTSB
contractor. If those photos do not have copyright restrictions, we will
find a way to make them available to the 601XL builder community.
So far we have only heard from half of the "I'm in" responders. Hopefully,
more builders will follow through and support the project. Then we will be
able to fund some of the option items that are of considerable interest
and/or purchase more photos, if available.
Thank you for your support and interest.
Terry
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 19
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| Subject: | Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? |
Besides the pre-drilled skins and some speed, what would I lose if I decided
to build a 601HD instead of a 601XL?
=> You wouldn't lose anything. There are some differences, but most of the
improvements in the XL, except the wing design and spring main gear,
transfer to the HD. My HD is built with the XL canopy, the XL firewall for
a heavier engine, and an XL like fuel system. I have the XL center console
too. The HD doesn't have flaps so that complication is gone. The wing has
a constant chord so fewer forms are needed if you scratch build. In theory
you might lose some cruise speed, but all 601s are slow regardless. Others
may find the differences more significant. The interior is almost the same.
Jeff Davidson
CH601 HD/Jabiru 3300A
Getting ready for fuel flow testing ....
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? |
Hi Leinad, First let me get this out, my guess is just that, A guess bas
ed on my past experiences while doing different flight maneuvers. You co
uld be as correct as me but here is my reasoning... While is steady stat
e flight like making a low pass before the pull up the G meter will read
0 G's. Not 1 like you propose. Any change in direction will influence t
he G meter either up or down or sideways. Your numbers of terminal veloc
ity are probably real close and it is the only way to even get a realist
ic wild ass guess. If I were to amend my first guess I wouls add a G to
the pull up at the far end because upon further viewing of the video it
really looks like a pretty hard yank and bank. It is so far away that no
body will probably closely guess the true G force on that one. The secon
d one in front of the camera is a very smooth pull up and bank. In my mi
nd he didn't change course 90 degrees in either axis so your figures of
deceleration is skewed, also his "speed almost gone" concept is probabl
y in error because to me he flew off at what looks like 70+ mph. Now if
he really did a sharp pull up to a hammerhead stall in 2.5 seconds your
numbers would be realistic. This is just my take and I could be entirely
out to lunch... I am putting my Flame suit on for this one too <G>...
...
do not archive..
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "leinad" <leinad@hughes.net> wrote:
Ben,
I'd like to know how you estimated the G forces.
If I do some simple calculations, based on a guess of how fast the plane
was going I get a much higher answer than your estimated 1.8 max during
the second pull up.
The plane looks to be going about 200 feet per second.. or 137 mph, as t
he pilot traded altitude for speed and the plane is capable of that spee
d in normal cruise. (This is where I could be completely wrong) He arre
sted all of that speed in the direction of the pass in 2 and half second
s. That gives an average acceleration of -80 feet/sec/sec during the 2.
5 seconds the velocity was bled off. Dividing by 32 gives us 2.5 Gs if
the deceleration were uniformly distributed through out the pull up, but
much more likely there were almost no Gs at the end since the speed was
almost gone, so the distribution of the force due to the pull up probab
ly peeked near 5 G at the bottom, so that the average could still be 2.5
. You also have to add 1 G for the steady state level flight, as that i
s what the wings are normally holding up. So there may have been a peek
G at around 6 at the bottom of the final pull up. And that only if the
pilot put in perfectly smooth gradual input, and the!
re were zero turbulence.
What struck me when I saw the video the first time was here was a very e
xperienced agricultural pilot flying his 601XL like it were a crop duste
r.
[quote="n801bh(at)netzero.com"]The pull up at the far end of the field
is kinda hard to really see but I will guess 2.2- 2.5 G's. The last pas
s right in front of the camera is maybe 1.5 -1.8 at best and flown real
smooth. Remember one can make some impressive manauvers and if kept smoo
th in control imputs it hardly reaches more then 1.5 G's.. Well within r
ange of a +6, -3 airframe..
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Sabrina" wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlpLeVvep7k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X8GcFqTpYM
Read this topic online here:
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> [b]
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
Hi Andy,
The bending brake components are straight, I've checked and re-checked with string
lines and the bench it's on is level and straight. At first I thought the
part was slipping, but my test with the bolts through the part being bent eliminated
any slipping. It was only when I trimmed the part down to 18mm flanges
that the bow occurred.
So it must relate to something else. I have tried bending 1200mm lengths at one
end of the brake, rather than the middle, same result. Don't know, I'm stumped,
thanks for your input.
If you or anyone else has any other ideas, I'd be glad to hear them.
Glenn.
ashontz wrote:
> I wouldn't construct something with a bow (banana shape) in it. It should be
straight. To correct the part you could try a small crimp every 6 inches til it's
straight. To correct the brake, find out why the bend line you're putting
in the part is not straight. Basically you're beding around a curved line instead
of a stright line for some reason, hence the bowed banana. Either the bending
tongue or the clamp is not straight, or the part is slipping in the brake
(most likely in the middle where the most concentrated force is) or the clamp
isn't holding it down hard enough. Doesn't take much at all to create a banana
bow. One mm out of straight is enough to notice a slight banana. An extreme example
of this is a potato chip (Pringles) or horse saddle shape; a compound curve,
bent two ways at once. Another possible problem is the distance between
the bending tongue (the part of the brake you lift on to make the bend) and the
clamp face you're benidn around. As per Ron Lendon, you'll notice the middle
doesn't make as tight of an acute angle as the ends when completed because the
outer edges don't have any material on the outside to resist the bending force,
hence the ends bend easier. With that in mind, and a continuous hinge style
brake, the tongue is by definition quite far from the axis of rotation, possibly
enough to create nice banana shaped parts. If you look closely at the design
for the small Zenith brake, the axis of rotation of the tongue face is actually
dead nuts at the edge of the clamp minus .050 for the material itself, and
axis is about 5/32" above the brake bed to allow the face of the tongue to
actually travel around the front edge of the 1/4" thick tongue; in a sense ROLLING
the bend around the clamp face rather than just pressing it into it like
a aluminum house siding bending brake.
>
> That bow is why industrial bending brakes are so big and heavy just for bening
fairly thin sheet, the beef is for the accuracy, and the accuracy comes from
the pivot actually being in place where no piano hinge can exist and still act
like a true bending brake, hense the pivots are at the ends. That's the main
difference between Dave's brake and a industrial brake. Nothing wrong with Dave's
brake though, obviously it's working for people, but you need to be aware
of the difference between the two. And on the flip side, and industrial brakes
weakness is in the fact that it's pivots are at the ends, hence, more beef is
needed in the brake.
>
> You need to go back and look at how to improve accuracy on that brake, it's not
impossible, but you need to be aware of it to have repeatable quality results.
>
--------
Glenn Andressen
601XL- just started.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182567#182567
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
That's odd. Still there must be some kind of not-so-straight condition occurring
that's only revealed once you take the extra meat off of the flange. That extra
meat must be holding things straight. Still 20mm bow over 6 feet or less is
fairly significant, but correctible with crimps. Better to correct the brake
or process itself though. When I pull my parts out of the brake there's virtually
no bowing. I can lay the part down on the worktable on either flange and
it's flat. How much are you trimming it? Normally I bend my with about a 20mm
flange and then trim.
Jugle wrote:
> Hi Andy,
>
> The bending brake components are straight, I've checked and re-checked with string
lines and the bench it's on is level and straight. At first I thought the
part was slipping, but my test with the bolts through the part being bent eliminated
any slipping. It was only when I trimmed the part down to 18mm flanges
that the bow occurred.
>
> So it must relate to something else. I have tried bending 1200mm lengths at one
end of the brake, rather than the middle, same result. Don't know, I'm stumped,
thanks for your input.
>
> If you or anyone else has any other ideas, I'd be glad to hear them.
>
> Glenn.
>
>
> ashontz wrote:
> > I wouldn't construct something with a bow (banana shape) in it. It should be
straight. To correct the part you could try a small crimp every 6 inches til
it's straight. To correct the brake, find out why the bend line you're putting
in the part is not straight. Basically you're beding around a curved line instead
of a stright line for some reason, hence the bowed banana. Either the bending
tongue or the clamp is not straight, or the part is slipping in the brake
(most likely in the middle where the most concentrated force is) or the clamp
isn't holding it down hard enough. Doesn't take much at all to create a banana
bow. One mm out of straight is enough to notice a slight banana. An extreme
example of this is a potato chip (Pringles) or horse saddle shape; a compound
curve, bent two ways at once. Another possible problem is the distance between
the bending tongue (the part of the brake you lift on to make the bend) and
the clamp face you're benidn around. As per Ron Lendon, you'll notice the middle
doesn't make as tight of an acute angle as the ends when completed because
the outer edges don't have any material on the outside to resist the bending force,
hence the ends bend easier. With that in mind, and a continuous hinge style
brake, the tongue is by definition quite far from the axis of rotation, possibly
enough to create nice banana shaped parts. If you look closely at the design
for the small Zenith brake, the axis of rotation of the tongue face is actually
dead nuts at the edge of the clamp minus .050 for the material itself,
and axis is about 5/32" above the brake bed to allow the face of the tongue to
actually travel around the front edge of the 1/4" thick tongue; in a sense ROLLING
the bend around the clamp face rather than just pressing it into it like
a aluminum house siding bending brake.
> >
> > That bow is why industrial bending brakes are so big and heavy just for bening
fairly thin sheet, the beef is for the accuracy, and the accuracy comes from
the pivot actually being in place where no piano hinge can exist and still
act like a true bending brake, hense the pivots are at the ends. That's the main
difference between Dave's brake and a industrial brake. Nothing wrong with
Dave's brake though, obviously it's working for people, but you need to be aware
of the difference between the two. And on the flip side, and industrial brakes
weakness is in the fact that it's pivots are at the ends, hence, more beef
is needed in the brake.
> >
> > You need to go back and look at how to improve accuracy on that brake, it's
not impossible, but you need to be aware of it to have repeatable quality results.
> >
>
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
Now that I think about it, I'm going to guess the radius of the bend in the middle
is slightly larger than the radius at the ends because 1) the face of the
tongue is a fairly good distance from the clamp and 2) the ends bend easier than
the middle, hence you have a tighter bend at the ends than the middle. I'm
going to guess the banana bow is to the inside of the bend rather than to the
outside like a saddle. Correct?
Another thing to keep in mind is, the conditions of the initial few degrees of
the bend are the setup for the rest of the bend. If the bend line and conditions
of the bend are not right starting out it'll be messed up. Take a closer look
at what's happening AS SOON as you start to lift the tongue of the brake, you
might notice something.
Jugle wrote:
> Hi Andy,
>
> The bending brake components are straight, I've checked and re-checked with string
lines and the bench it's on is level and straight. At first I thought the
part was slipping, but my test with the bolts through the part being bent eliminated
any slipping. It was only when I trimmed the part down to 18mm flanges
that the bow occurred.
>
> So it must relate to something else. I have tried bending 1200mm lengths at one
end of the brake, rather than the middle, same result. Don't know, I'm stumped,
thanks for your input.
>
> If you or anyone else has any other ideas, I'd be glad to hear them.
>
> Glenn.
>
>
> ashontz wrote:
> > I wouldn't construct something with a bow (banana shape) in it. It should be
straight. To correct the part you could try a small crimp every 6 inches til
it's straight. To correct the brake, find out why the bend line you're putting
in the part is not straight. Basically you're beding around a curved line instead
of a stright line for some reason, hence the bowed banana. Either the bending
tongue or the clamp is not straight, or the part is slipping in the brake
(most likely in the middle where the most concentrated force is) or the clamp
isn't holding it down hard enough. Doesn't take much at all to create a banana
bow. One mm out of straight is enough to notice a slight banana. An extreme
example of this is a potato chip (Pringles) or horse saddle shape; a compound
curve, bent two ways at once. Another possible problem is the distance between
the bending tongue (the part of the brake you lift on to make the bend) and
the clamp face you're benidn around. As per Ron Lendon, you'll notice the middle
doesn't make as tight of an acute angle as the ends when completed because
the outer edges don't have any material on the outside to resist the bending force,
hence the ends bend easier. With that in mind, and a continuous hinge style
brake, the tongue is by definition quite far from the axis of rotation, possibly
enough to create nice banana shaped parts. If you look closely at the design
for the small Zenith brake, the axis of rotation of the tongue face is actually
dead nuts at the edge of the clamp minus .050 for the material itself,
and axis is about 5/32" above the brake bed to allow the face of the tongue to
actually travel around the front edge of the 1/4" thick tongue; in a sense ROLLING
the bend around the clamp face rather than just pressing it into it like
a aluminum house siding bending brake.
> >
> > That bow is why industrial bending brakes are so big and heavy just for bening
fairly thin sheet, the beef is for the accuracy, and the accuracy comes from
the pivot actually being in place where no piano hinge can exist and still
act like a true bending brake, hense the pivots are at the ends. That's the main
difference between Dave's brake and a industrial brake. Nothing wrong with
Dave's brake though, obviously it's working for people, but you need to be aware
of the difference between the two. And on the flip side, and industrial brakes
weakness is in the fact that it's pivots are at the ends, hence, more beef
is needed in the brake.
> >
> > You need to go back and look at how to improve accuracy on that brake, it's
not impossible, but you need to be aware of it to have repeatable quality results.
> >
>
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
ashontz wrote:
> Now that I think about it, I'm going to guess the radius of the bend in the middle
is slightly larger than the radius at the ends because 1) the face of the
tongue is a fairly good distance from the clamp and 2) the ends bend easier
than the middle, hence you have a tighter bend at the ends than the middle. I'm
going to guess the banana bow is to the inside of the bend rather than to the
outside like a saddle. Correct?
I think the radius is larger in the middle of the bend... I've just been sitting
here experimenting with pieces of paper and if you bend a right angle fold in
a sheet of paper, with a sharper fold at the ends and less sharp in the middle,
you get the bow I'm getting... so the brake must not be bending as sharp in
the middle.
ashontz wrote:
>
> Another thing to keep in mind is, the conditions of the initial few degrees of
the bend are the setup for the rest of the bend. If the bend line and conditions
of the bend are not right starting out it'll be messed up. Take a closer
look at what's happening AS SOON as you start to lift the tongue of the brake,
you might notice something.
Yep, good tip, I'll go and have another look.
--------
Glenn Andressen
601XL- just started.
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
Just a random thought. Is it possible some residual strain left in the
material from the manufacturing process is manifesting it's self by changing
how much the metal springs back.
One possible test, bend a number of shorter pieces at the same time over the
same span on the break and see how the radii and spring back look on each
piece. Might give you another bit of data.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN
"Hope for the best,
but prepare for the worst."
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jugle" <glenn@eastcoastit.net>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 5:30 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Bending- again...
>
> Hi Andy,
>
> The bending brake components are straight, I've checked and re-checked
> with string lines and the bench it's on is level and straight. At first I
> thought the part was slipping, but my test with the bolts through the part
> being bent eliminated any slipping. It was only when I trimmed the part
> down to 18mm flanges that the bow occurred.
>
> So it must relate to something else. I have tried bending 1200mm lengths
> at one end of the brake, rather than the middle, same result. Don't know,
> I'm stumped, thanks for your input.
>
> If you or anyone else has any other ideas, I'd be glad to hear them.
>
> Glenn.
>
>
> ashontz wrote:
>> I wouldn't construct something with a bow (banana shape) in it. It should
>> be straight. To correct the part you could try a small crimp every 6
>> inches til it's straight. To correct the brake, find out why the bend
>> line you're putting in the part is not straight. Basically you're beding
>> around a curved line instead of a stright line for some reason, hence the
>> bowed banana. Either the bending tongue or the clamp is not straight, or
>> the part is slipping in the brake (most likely in the middle where the
>> most concentrated force is) or the clamp isn't holding it down hard
>> enough. Doesn't take much at all to create a banana bow. One mm out of
>> straight is enough to notice a slight banana. An extreme example of this
>> is a potato chip (Pringles) or horse saddle shape; a compound curve, bent
>> two ways at once. Another possible problem is the distance between the
>> bending tongue (the part of the brake you lift on to make the bend) and
>> the clamp face you're benidn around. As per Ron Lendon!
> , you'll notice the middle doesn't make as tight of an acute angle as the
> ends when completed because the outer edges don't have any material on the
> outside to resist the bending force, hence the ends bend easier. With that
> in mind, and a continuous hinge style brake, the tongue is by definition
> quite far from the axis of rotation, possibly enough to create nice banana
> shaped parts. If you look closely at the design for the small Zenith
> brake, the axis of rotation of the tongue face is actually dead nuts at
> the edge of the clamp minus .050 for the material itself, and axis is
> about 5/32" above the brake bed to allow the face of the tongue to
> actually travel around the front edge of the 1/4" thick tongue; in a sense
> ROLLING the bend around the clamp face rather than just pressing it into
> it like a aluminum house siding bending brake.
>>
>> That bow is why industrial bending brakes are so big and heavy just for
>> bening fairly thin sheet, the beef is for the accuracy, and the accuracy
>> comes from the pivot actually being in place where no piano hinge can
>> exist and still act like a true bending brake, hense the pivots are at
>> the ends. That's the main difference between Dave's brake and a
>> industrial brake. Nothing wrong with Dave's brake though, obviously it's
>> working for people, but you need to be aware of the difference between
>> the two. And on the flip side, and industrial brakes weakness is in the
>> fact that it's pivots are at the ends, hence, more beef is needed in the
>> brake.
>>
>> You need to go back and look at how to improve accuracy on that brake,
>> it's not impossible, but you need to be aware of it to have repeatable
>> quality results.
>>
>
>
> --------
> Glenn Andressen
> 601XL- just started.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182567#182567
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 5/10/2008 11:12 AM
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? |
How about the 601HDS? Cruise at 120 mph on 80 hp and not as bumpy.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
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| Subject: | Chat Room Reminder for "Digesters" |
Please join us for our Monday evening chat room starting around 8:00 PM
Eastern Time.
<http://www.mykitairplane.com/chat/> http://www.mykitairplane.com/chat/
George
CH-701 N73EX (Reserved)
Do Not Archive
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| Subject: | Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? |
Are you planning to scratch build? This is an important question for you because
the HD is no longer being produced as a kit.
Like you, I had a hard time deciding between the HD or the XL, but in my case it
wasn't because of the accidents (the accident started to happen after I made
the decision and started building) there where things in the HD that I liked.
I went with the XL anyway and so far I haven't regret my decision.
The reason why I decided in favor of the XL is this: In time there will be more
XL flying than HDs. That time is already here. Today, the XL is more common than
the HD or the HDS, but not more common than the HD and HDS combined, but give
it a little bit more time. One reason why the XL is more common is because
you can buy a certified ready to fly XL, but if you want an HD/HDS your only
option is scratch building. You can buy a kit or a quick build.
Number of planes flying is very important to me, specially if there is a certified
version of the plane. I believe that a design with lots of copies flying plus
a certified version is more likely, in the long run, to be a more debugged
plane.
I don't know for sure what is causing these accidents (I have my suspicions), but
I'm quite confident that whatever it is, it will be found and resolved. However,
you need to consider that I'm scratch building and I'm still years away
from having a flying plane, I have to wait no matter what.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
Howdy! I'm new to this list.
I just started on a rudder (I've been planning to build a zodiac for about a decade,
but I finally have both the space and the funds) and then discovered all
the scuttlebutt about the recent XL crashes. Without making statements about
the XL, we know that the HD is a very time-tested and proven design.
Besides the pre-drilled skins and some speed, what would I lose if I decided to
build a 601HD instead of a 601XL? Has anyone here built and flown both so they
can give an A/B comparison?
Just something I've been mulling over in my head.
Thanks,
John
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
No problem.
Yeah, that's what I figured. And yes the paper fold is a good analogy. No you have
to think about how to bend the center evenly. Maybe something is simple as
adding a 1/4" strip of metal on the tongue would help so that it pushes further
into the clamp face. The problem you're experiencing is due to the large distance
between the tongue face and the clamp face when the ton is in the 90 degree
position, but the condition exists as soon as you start to bend, it just
gets amplified. That smal distance is significant enough for the aluminum sheet
to find a path of least resistance, and that path is, a larger radius bend in
the middle. There's less resistance at the ends so it's not as much of a problem
for the sheet to make the tigher radius bend on the outsides vs the insides.
You said you were testing it with strips, that's good. A good brake should show
identical bends whether they were made at either end or the middle, they shouldbe
identical. At least you've identified the problem, now you just have to figure
out how to fix it, and the fix may be on a piece by piece basis, but that's
not terrible because really this problem only applies to fairly long pieces,
and there's not that many of them. But figure for each long piece, it may take
you 2 hours to make that part perfect, but that's time well spent, plus you'll
know your brake better and be able to do it that much better in the future
for the next part or if you have to remake something. Unless you're using a
$10,000 industrial brake, making perfect parts on a 8' homemade brake is a bit
of an artform, hopefully you can limit that to fiddling and setting up the brake
up once and then going at it from there on out.
Jugle wrote:
>
> ashontz wrote:
> > Now that I think about it, I'm going to guess the radius of the bend in the
middle is slightly larger than the radius at the ends because 1) the face of
the tongue is a fairly good distance from the clamp and 2) the ends bend easier
than the middle, hence you have a tighter bend at the ends than the middle.
I'm going to guess the banana bow is to the inside of the bend rather than to
the outside like a saddle. Correct?
>
> I think the radius is larger in the middle of the bend... I've just been sitting
here experimenting with pieces of paper and if you bend a right angle fold
in a sheet of paper, with a sharper fold at the ends and less sharp in the middle,
you get the bow I'm getting... so the brake must not be bending as sharp
in the middle.
>
>
> ashontz wrote:
> >
> > Another thing to keep in mind is, the conditions of the initial few degrees
of the bend are the setup for the rest of the bend. If the bend line and conditions
of the bend are not right starting out it'll be messed up. Take a closer
look at what's happening AS SOON as you start to lift the tongue of the brake,
you might notice something.
>
> Yep, good tip, I'll go and have another look.
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182586#182586
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
You are right Andy and I think I have found it... because the brake is so long
(10'), there is a lot of pressure in the middle and it is pulling the hinge away
in the centre, very slightly. I'm using a steel hinge and steel rivets, but
the rivet pitch is 2"- apparently too far apart.
I'm going to remove the hinge, clean the faces and refit it with a rivet in between
each existing one.
Thanks to everyone for their input and especially Andy. Bouncing it back and forth,
I think we have found the answer. I'll let you know in a few days when I've
fixed it.
Glenn.
ashontz wrote:
> No problem.
>
> Yeah, that's what I figured. And yes the paper fold is a good analogy. No you
have to think about how to bend the center evenly. Maybe something is simple
as adding a 1/4" strip of metal on the tongue would help so that it pushes further
into the clamp face. The problem you're experiencing is due to the large
distance between the tongue face and the clamp face when the ton is in the 90
degree position, but the condition exists as soon as you start to bend, it just
gets amplified. That smal distance is significant enough for the aluminum sheet
to find a path of least resistance, and that path is, a larger radius bend
in the middle. There's less resistance at the ends so it's not as much of a problem
for the sheet to make the tigher radius bend on the outsides vs the insides.
>
> You said you were testing it with strips, that's good. A good brake should show
identical bends whether they were made at either end or the middle, they shouldbe
identical. But the interesting thing about the Dave Clay brake is, the
strips may appear identical, then you go and bend a full length piece and something
aint right. The something that aint right is that large distance between
the tongue face at 90 degrees and the clamp due to the fact that hinge point
is below and oout rather than practically at the face and up.
--------
Glenn Andressen
601XL- just started.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182590#182590
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
Good dialog Andy,
Here is a picture of the leaf brake I'm using. Notice the angular structure (A-frame)
above and below the bending frame. These are there specifically to tune
out the feature you are experiencing. There is a treaded nut at the center
of the A-frame for adjustment.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182595#182595
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| Subject: | Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) |
Quick questions for any who wishes to answer. With all this talk of aileron balancing
I was wondering if the aircraft involved in either flutter incidents or
any of the recent accidents had standard hingless ailerons or the optional hinged
ailerons? From what I've read, pilot report wise, the hingless ailerons
require more force than the hinged for similar deflections. If this is this
case (what you are about to read is pure speculation and unsupported by any factual
data) it seems as if the hingless (original design) ailerons would be less
susceptable to flutter do to the dampening effect created by the rigidty of
the aluminum. Any thoughts? I am not an engineer nor am I a mechanic just a
plain old Joe trying to fulfill my dream of building and flying my own aircraft
so please don't take my comments the wrong way.
--------
Andrew Lieser
S/N 6-7045
http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser
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| Subject: | Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? |
Dave,
Of the three models (HD, HDS, and XL), the HDS is the least likely
to meet the LSA criteria when built. Otherwise it is fine too.
Jeff D
How about the 601HDS? Cruise at 120 mph on 80 hp and not as bumpy.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
I tried putting a spacer in the centre of the bend of moving angle to
tighten but seemed to make no difference??
Graemecns
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jugle" <glenn@eastcoastit.net>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 9:50 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Bending- again...
>
> You are right Andy and I think I have found it... because the brake is so
> long (10'), there is a lot of pressure in the middle and it is pulling the
> hinge away in the centre, very slightly. I'm using a steel hinge and steel
> rivets, but the rivet pitch is 2"- apparently too far apart.
>
> I'm going to remove the hinge, clean the faces and refit it with a rivet
> in between each existing one.
>
> Thanks to everyone for their input and especially Andy. Bouncing it back
> and forth, I think we have found the answer. I'll let you know in a few
> days when I've fixed it.
>
> Glenn.
>
>
> ashontz wrote:
>> No problem.
>>
>> Yeah, that's what I figured. And yes the paper fold is a good analogy. No
>> you have to think about how to bend the center evenly. Maybe something is
>> simple as adding a 1/4" strip of metal on the tongue would help so that
>> it pushes further into the clamp face. The problem you're experiencing is
>> due to the large distance between the tongue face and the clamp face when
>> the ton is in the 90 degree position, but the condition exists as soon as
>> you start to bend, it just gets amplified. That smal distance is
>> significant enough for the aluminum sheet to find a path of least
>> resistance, and that path is, a larger radius bend in the middle. There's
>> less resistance at the ends so it's not as much of a problem for the
>> sheet to make the tigher radius bend on the outsides vs the insides.
>>
>> You said you were testing it with strips, that's good. A good brake
>> should show identical bends whether they were made at either end or the
>> middle, they shouldbe identical. But the interesting thing about the Dave
>> Clay brake is, the strips may appear identical, then you go and bend a
>> full length piece and something aint right. The something that aint right
>> is that large distance between the tongue face at 90 degrees and the
>> clamp due to the fact that hinge point is below and oout rather than
>> practically at the face and up.
>
>
> --------
> Glenn Andressen
> 601XL- just started.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182590#182590
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 11/05/2008 1:08 PM
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
Sounds good, Good luck. Should work fine, just keep a cloer eye on what's actually
going on.
Jugle wrote:
> You are right Andy and I think I have found it... because the brake is so long
(10'), there is a lot of pressure in the middle and it is pulling the hinge
away in the centre, very slightly. I'm using a steel hinge and steel rivets, but
the rivet pitch is 2"- apparently too far apart.
>
> I'm going to remove the hinge, clean the faces and refit it with a rivet in between
each existing one.
>
> Thanks to everyone for their input and especially Andy. Bouncing it back and
forth, I think we have found the answer. I'll let you know in a few days when
I've fixed it.
>
> Glenn.
>
>
> ashontz wrote:
> > No problem.
> >
> > Yeah, that's what I figured. And yes the paper fold is a good analogy. No you
have to think about how to bend the center evenly. Maybe something is simple
as adding a 1/4" strip of metal on the tongue would help so that it pushes further
into the clamp face. The problem you're experiencing is due to the large
distance between the tongue face and the clamp face when the ton is in the 90
degree position, but the condition exists as soon as you start to bend, it just
gets amplified. That smal distance is significant enough for the aluminum
sheet to find a path of least resistance, and that path is, a larger radius bend
in the middle. There's less resistance at the ends so it's not as much of a
problem for the sheet to make the tigher radius bend on the outsides vs the insides.
> >
> > You said you were testing it with strips, that's good. A good brake should
show identical bends whether they were made at either end or the middle, they
shouldbe identical. But the interesting thing about the Dave Clay brake is, the
strips may appear identical, then you go and bend a full length piece and something
aint right. The something that aint right is that large distance between
the tongue face at 90 degrees and the clamp due to the fact that hinge point
is below and oout rather than practically at the face and up.
>
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182598#182598
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
Thanks Ron. Yeah, my bending brake is of this type, with the pivots at the ends.
Depending on how I adjust it (or misadjust it :) ) I can make a stright bend,
and trough bend, or a saddle bend. Just depends on the tongue and clamp adjustments.
Obviously we're interested in standard straight bends though. :)
Ron Lendon wrote:
> Good dialog Andy,
>
> Here is a picture of the leaf brake I'm using. Notice the angular structure
(A-frame) above and below the bending frame. These are there specifically to
tune out the feature you are experiencing. There is a treaded nut at the center
of the A-frame for adjustment.
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
That's a fine looking unit Ron. Yes I know all industrial brakes have the tensioner
on them, where Dave's design uses the piano hinge to maintain even pressure,
as long as you don't ask too much of it!
I may even shorten mine yet, as the 10' is probably not necessary as I first thought.
Ron Lendon wrote:
> Good dialog Andy,
>
> Here is a picture of the leaf brake I'm using. Notice the angular structure
(A-frame) above and below the bending frame. These are there specifically to
tune out the feature you are experiencing. There is a treaded nut at the center
of the A-frame for adjustment.
--------
Glenn Andressen
601XL- just started.
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| Subject: | Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? |
There is still pricing info for 601 HD and HDS kits and plans at http://ww
w.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-price.html
They may be out of production but the website certainly doesn't reflect tha
t
enith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead?To: ze
nith-list@matronics.comAre you planning to scratch build? This is an import
ant question for you because the HD is no longer being produced as a kit. L
ike you, I had a hard time deciding between the HD or the XL, but in my cas
e it wasn't because of the accidents (the accident started to happen after
I made the decision and started building) there where things in the HD that
I liked. I went with the XL anyway and so far I haven't regret my decision
. The reason why I decided in favor of the XL is this: In time there will b
e more XL flying than HDs. That time is already here. Today, the XL is more
common than the HD or the HDS, but not more common than the HD and HDS com
bined, but give it a little bit more time. One reason why the XL is more co
mmon is because you can buy a certified ready to fly XL, but if you want an
HD/HDS your only option is scratch building. You can buy a kit or a quick
build. Number of planes flying is very important to me, specially if there
is a certified version of the plane. I believe that a design with lots of c
opies flying plus a certified version is more likely, in the long run, to b
e a more debugged plane.I don't know for sure what is causing these acciden
ts (I have my suspicions), but I'm quite confident that whatever it is, it
will be found and resolved. However, you need to consider that I'm scratch
building and I'm still years away from having a flying plane, I have to wai
t no matter what.William DominguezZodiac 601XL PlansMiami Floridahttp://www
.geocities.com/bill_domJbellinger <blondietheblond@gmail.com> wrote:
.I just started on a rudder (I've been planning to build a zodiac for about
a decade, but I finally have
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- |
What if he says it's a sound design? Are you going to jump back into
>building with both feet, finally content that the 601xl is safe,
Content that it safe? I think that would fly in the face of the NTSB final
report on the Oakdale accident.
AS it appears that not even a clean bill of health from this outside expert
will convince you the airplane as designed is "safe", why even bother to
proceed.
Assume the expert says the design is "unsafe", what will you do to recover
your "treasure"? Will you sell the kit to someone else to build? Will you tell
this purchaser that you have hired this expert and the design is "unsafe" ?
Have any of you considered the effect that all of this brainstorming will
have on the future of your aircraft. Writing "do not archive" does not erase
this brainstorming from the internet. Are you going to tell any future
passengers or purchasers of your aircraft that you have, in writing, questioned
the
"safety" of the aircraft design and/or made modifications to the structure of
the aircraft without structural analysis by a design professional? How will
you report these changes to your insurance company as I'm sure that you are
concerned enough to take out liability insurance to protect your passengers
and/or their estates when the "unsafe" craft inevitably crashes. Will you
placard your aircraft with your concerns and changes. Will you inform your
passengers about your unauthorized acrobatic maneuvers(remember those youtube
videos)? Have you informed the expert that you will be sending the report to
the
NTSB. Have your group members realized their potential liability for the
publication, and in some states the failure to publish, of their newfound
knowledge about the "unsafe" design(I'll assume the expert already knows of his
liability exposure)?
Assume the expert, although he is only reviewing the plans, says the design
is "safe" or even substantially complies with reasonable engineering
standards. Is your fall back plan to "rely" on the NTSB reports which you have
all
indicated previously as being useless, incomplete or incompetent. Once again,
and without a cause for the accident being delineated, you allege design
errors and not construction mistakes, materials substitutions, aerobatics or any
other reasons for the structural failures. This is circular logic, at best,
and not precise engineering study of a hopefully non-existent situation.
So, proceed on with your study, but realize the consequences of your actions
go far beyond your tapping computer keys in the darkness.
**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
I have been following this thread, because the bending brake as well as the flanging
die really had me thinking for awhile. I also have a 10 ft Daves brake (
he really should trade mark that name ;-) I had a 4 ft Al brake from A.Spruce
that did just what yours is doing! Crap... don't buy one! Anyway my point is,
fix the problem and keep the length. Is it necessary for this airplane...nope.
But your friends will know that you have one and WILL come up with all manor
of things to bend. I found out that a guy I've known for years builds mud trucks!!!Of
course they have sheet metal....!
Kevin
Jugle wrote:
> That's a fine looking unit Ron. Yes I know all industrial brakes have the tensioner
on them, where Dave's design uses the piano hinge to maintain even pressure,
as long as you don't ask too much of it!
>
> I may even shorten mine yet, as the 10' is probably not necessary as I first
thought.
>
>
> Ron Lendon wrote:
> > Good dialog Andy,
> >
> > Here is a picture of the leaf brake I'm using. Notice the angular structure
(A-frame) above and below the bending frame. These are there specifically
to tune out the feature you are experiencing. There is a treaded nut at the center
of the A-frame for adjustment.
>
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
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| Subject: | Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? |
It seems that it may be back in production. I remember some time in the past when
only pricing for the plans where available for the HD/HDS. $12,620.00 is bargain.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
Frank Roskind <frankroskind@hotmail.com> wrote: .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } There is still pricing info for 601 HD and HDS kits and plans at http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-price.html
They may be out of production but the website certainly doesn't reflect that
---------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 16:29:04 -0700
From: bill_dom@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead?
Are you planning to scratch build? This is an important question for you because
the HD is no longer being produced as a kit.
Like you, I had a hard time deciding between the HD or the XL, but in my case it
wasn't because of the accidents (the accident started to happen after I made
the decision and started building) there where things in the HD that I liked.
I went with the XL anyway and so far I haven't regret my decision.
The reason why I decided in favor of the XL is this: In time there will be more
XL flying than HDs. That time is already here. Today, the XL is more common than
the HD or the HDS, but not more common than the HD and HDS combined, but give
it a little bit more time. One reason why the XL is more common is because
you can buy a certified ready to fly XL, but if you want an HD/HDS your only
option is scratch building. You can buy a kit or a quick build.
Number of planes flying is very important to me, specially if there is a certified
version of the plane. I believe that a design with lots of copies flying plus
a certified version is more likely, in the long run, to be a more debugged
plane.
I don't know for sure what is causing these accidents (I have my suspicions), but
I'm quite confident that whatever it is, it will be found and resolved. However,
you need to consider that I'm scratch building and I'm still years away
from having a flying plane, I have to wait no matter what.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
Howdy! I'm new to this list.
I just started on a rudder (I've been planning to build a zodiac for about a decade,
but I finally have
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
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| Subject: | Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? |
The 601HD and HDS are not going back into production, as they have never
gone out of offering. In Canada the 601HD has always been able to fit
into our ultralight category and as such I have been able to sell them.
Now I will admit that wait time for a HD kit does take longer as it is a
special order but it has never been retired.
I would also like to add a few things, There has been an abundance of
miss information on this list as a handful of members have offered
speculation on accidents. We have heard time and time again of this
thought and that thought,. Speculation on one issue then bounding to
another and a few jumping on the bandwagon, no one is more concerned
about safety then the manufacturer and the designer. Stacks upon stacks
of information has been submitted to the FAA for investigation purposes,
including a 3rd party testing of the XL design. Once this information is
submitted to the Government then it is not for release to the public
until an investigation is closed. So please don=92t ever think that the
designer or company is not going to extraordinary steps to help in the
investigation of any incident, as always they have gone far beyond what
is requested or necessary.
I have been quiet on the speculations I have read here since Sun-N-Fun,
typically I do not offer any opinion until called upon as it is not my
position to monitor a list or it=92s members. Healthy discussion is
always
good to read. Healthy is also defined as something that can be learned
from concrete information not outlandish speculation.
Chris has announced a limit on the elevator authority and this is a
recommendation that is likely very worth doing on your plane. The older
601 HD series had a cruise speed of about 85-90mph and it was almost
impossible to get into trouble with any maneuvers on that plane, even a
dive would be hard pressed to approach the Vne of a 601HD with a Rotax
912. This is not the case with the 601XL, the XL is a far faster and
more responsive plane and is fully capable of exceeding it=92s limits,
we
have even read about a person reveling in the fact that his XL was able
to make 200mph in a dive. We have seen on Youtube a 601XL doing
aerobatics, last time I have mentioned that the 601XL is not rated for
Aerobatics in Canada a builder spoke up that he is planning on doing
full aerobatics in his plane. Many people have customized there build to
make there plane personal and to fit there idea of strength, there are
601=92s out there with a 980lb empty and the owners still load 500 lbs
of
people in them then add fuel, the aileron balance cables in a few planes
have been limp. I have also seen some that have been so far out of W&B
that I wonder how they fly safely at all. Nevertheless, with
customization/need for aerobatics/ abilities of design, in the case of
an accident it is only ever a Zenith plane.
What does this all add up to, that=92s simple the company and it=92s
designer are doing everything in there power to ensure that we are
building and flying the safest possible product. With all the paperwork
in the hands of the NTSB the AMD facility is still producing and selling
a SLSA as well as an IFR version of the 601XL. Is there anyone on this
list that could possibly believe that the government would hesitate to
stop a production model of aircraft if it had evidence of a possibility
history or common link of failure?
I=92ve had a 601HD, flown an HDS and I am close to my final of the XL as
well as have spent many hours in several XL=92s and HD=92s. All this
speculation is doing a few things, it has split this list of many great
and knowledgeable builders that were a vast pool of knowledge, I
consider this alone to be shameful. It has terrorized people who were
planning on building a 601 into not even considering a great plane and
has put fear into builders into selling there projects. This fear is
from a systemic few and is truly unwarranted to this degree, talk about
accidents is warranted and desired as we learn from incidents. We have
learned a few things in the last couple of years, don=92t forget to
install your rear spar bolts, don=92t forget to fuel your plane, don=92t
forget to build according to the designers specifications and the AC43
13b standards, don=92t forget to follow the designers updates, stay out
of
thunderstorms.
Remember many things can be a catalyst for an accident in an aircraft
and often It is a series of small events that can add up to a large one.
The older series of 601=92s if you got into a serious situation not much
happened until you found the ground. The older versions were incapable
of the abilities of the XL, if you have a serious incident in one form
or the other with the ability of a cruise of 130 mph then the final
result could be well beyond the design parameters. Seldom does anyone on
the ground ever understand or see the cause of an accident they see the
plane as it reaches past it=92s design loads. Speculation about a plane
that has had an accident and has evidently reached beyond it design
limits will only devalue it.
Speed capabilities is and always will be a factor in an aircraft
accident, it is no wonder why the 701 has such a terrific record.
My 601XL will be ready soon, I have added the modification from the
designer limiting the travel of the elevator. I am also looking forward
to my 15yr old daughter learning in the XL to get her license. Do I have
a blind trust? Not even in my wife, which is my greatest friend in this
life. However, I know the design investigation and the scrutiny in the
601XL design done by the designer and many others and I am confident
that as long as the plane is built to the designers intentions and flown
within it=92s parameters it will be a fun and safe plane to own.
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701
HYPERLINK "http://www.ch601.org"www.ch601.org / HYPERLINK
"http://www.ch701.com"www.ch701.com/ HYPERLINK
"http://www.Osprey2.com"www.Osprey2.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
Dominguez
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 10:26 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a
HD instead?
It seems that it may be back in production. I remember some time in the
past when only pricing for the plans where available for the HD/HDS.
$12,620.00 is bargain.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
Frank Roskind <frankroskind@hotmail.com> wrote:
There is still pricing info for 601 HD and HDS kits and plans at
HYPERLINK
"http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-price.html"http://www.zenithair.com/z
odiac/6-price.html
They may be out of production but the website certainly doesn't reflect
that
_____
From: bill_dom@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a
HD instead?
Are you planning to scratch build? This is an important question for you
because the HD is no longer being produced as a kit.
Like you, I had a hard time deciding between the HD or the XL, but in my
case it wasn't because of the accidents (the accident started to happen
after I made the decision and started building) there where things in
the HD that I liked. I went with the XL anyway and so far I haven't
regret my decision.
The reason why I decided in favor of the XL is this: In time there will
be more XL flying than HDs. That time is already here. Today, the XL is
more common than the HD or the HDS, but not more common than the HD and
HDS combined, but give it a little bit more time. One reason why the XL
is more common is because you can buy a certified ready to fly XL, but
if you want an HD/HDS your only option is scratch building. You can buy
a kit or a quick build.
Number of planes flying is very important to me, specially if there is a
certified version of the plane. I believe that a design with lots of
copies flying plus a certified version is more likely, in the long run,
to be a more debugged plane.
I don't know for sure what is causing these accidents (I have my
suspicions), but I'm quite confident that whatever it is, it will be
found and resolved. However, you need to consider that I'm scratch
building and I'm still years away from having a flying plane, I have to
wait no matter what.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
Jbellinger <blondietheblond@gmail.com> wrote:
Howdy! I'm new to this list.
I just started on a rudder (I've been planning to build a zodiac for
about a decade, but I finally have
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_____
Windows Live SkyDrive lets you share files with faraway friends.
HYPERLINK
"http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Re
f
resh_skydrive_052008"Start sharing.
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List"http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?Zenith-List
"http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com
"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu
tion
Checked by AVG.
12:00 AM
Checked by AVG.
12:00 AM
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
When I started building, a kit was too much for my budget. Scratch building was
an affordable option. I found out quickly that a bending brake was a necessity.
Here are the main criteria I considered when I designed my brake:
1. inexpensive
2. no welding required
3. worked better than the wooden brakes I found on the Internet
I think I succeeded in meeting these goals. Yeah, it doesn't work like a commercial
brake. But, with a little creative thinking you can bend pretty much anything
needed to build a Zenith design.
Hundreds of people from all over the world have built a "Dave's Brake". I have
shared the plans and taken the time to e-mail advice free of charge for a couple
of years now. To me, it is reward enough just knowing that maybe I've helped
other builders in pursuit of their dream.
I'm not an engineer...I'm a nurse. While I appreciate any ideas that might improve
on the design, I do get tired of reading the nonconstructive criticism of
posters on this list who have never even used my brake. If someone comes up with
a better brake that meets the same criteria, I'll trash my brake and build
yours.
Dave Clay
Temple, TX
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