Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:48 AM - Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- (Martin Pohl)
2. 05:00 AM - Re: Bending- again... (ashontz)
3. 06:55 AM - Chat Night Reminder (George Race)
4. 07:01 AM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (sonar1@cox.net)
5. 07:05 AM - Re: helping kids build a plane (sdthatcher)
6. 07:16 AM - NC and VA Fly-ins. Anyone going? (601corvair)
7. 07:40 AM - Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) (ashontz)
8. 07:58 AM - Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol (LarryMcFarland)
9. 08:26 AM - The New Zenith Builders Analysis Group Private Forum (William Dominguez)
10. 09:18 AM - Re: Re: helping kids build a plane (Juan Vega)
11. 09:30 AM - Re: About another XL Down - Brazil (Roberto Brito)
12. 09:57 AM - Re: About another XL Down - Brazil (ashontz)
13. 10:48 AM - Re: The New Zenith Builders Analysis Group Private Forum (Tim Juhl)
14. 02:19 PM - Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol (ashontz)
15. 02:59 PM - Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol (Gig Giacona)
16. 03:55 PM - Re: Re: Bending- again... (Graeme)
17. 03:58 PM - Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol (ashontz)
18. 04:47 PM - Re: Bending- again... (Jugle)
19. 05:07 PM - Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? (leinad)
20. 05:30 PM - Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) (Dave Nixon)
21. 06:04 PM - Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) (ashontz)
22. 06:19 PM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (Dan Forney)
23. 06:42 PM - Re: NC and VA Fly-ins. Anyone going? (leinad)
24. 06:50 PM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (Jeyoung65@aol.com)
25. 07:06 PM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (Juan Vega)
26. 07:14 PM - Re: Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol (Juan Vega)
27. 07:32 PM - Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? (MaxNr@aol.com)
28. 08:12 PM - Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? (MaxNr@aol.com)
29. 08:29 PM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (Leo Gates)
30. 08:39 PM - Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) (Ron Lendon)
31. 08:59 PM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (Stanley Challgren)
32. 09:15 PM - O-290 install (LHusky@aol.com)
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- |
I found a good report from DLR (German Research Institute for Aviation and Space
Flight) about aileron flutter (see abstract below). PhD Mr. Kiessling sent me
a copy of this report.
http://elib.dlr.de/39473/
Unfortunately the electronic copy is in German only. I have a hardcopy in English.
Nevertheless I will contact Mr. Kiessling if he can provide an english electronic
copy.
The idea is to check and adjust aileron/elevator/rudder balancing with simple means.
If somebody is interested, has a good amount of time, has some engineering background
and is up for doing such tests on his/hers Zodiac, feel free to contact
me!
The tests have to be done on already painted control surfaces BEFORE they are attached
to the wing and AFTER they are attached to the wing and connected to the
entire control system (i.e. wings then need to be installed to the fuselage).
That would be possible e.g. with a nearly finished XL when wings can be installed,
but ailerons only attached with clecoes.
Cheers Martin
--------
Martin Pohl
Zodiac XL QBK
8645 Jona, Switzerland
www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
Dave, I wasn't trashing your brake, it's just a different design. Mine is designed
around a stretch Zenith design, but I had to add tensioners top and bottom.
It's just the nature of the beast. I actually made a brake like yours first,
but I wasn't satisfied with what I was seeing as a completed part due to the
distance between the tongue and clamp which is due to the pivot point being below
and out of the brake bed, and so I backed up and spent a good 4 weeks making
a stretch Zenith design, and still had to tweak the new one a lot. I'm just
saying that after building both designs, even the one that's designed more like
an industrial type brake, there's still a lot of considerations to be taken
into account. Bending is not as mundane as it would first appear and I have a
new appreciation for that now. I would have loved to have made Larry McFarland's
brake, but I didn't have and milling machine at the time to make a lot of
those parts, so I tried to design mine per Zenith's design, but was stretched
and beefed up, but could still be made with fairly simple hand tools. Your brake
is infinitely better than using a house siding bender, and yet people have
used house siding benders to make these parts as well. I see this conversation
as more of a techinical discussion of what's actually involved in bending, not
as some slam session, so don't take it personally. That fact that people here
have found ways to bend parts without dropping $8,500 - $10,000 on a bending
brake is the real achivement.
TxDave wrote:
> When I started building, a kit was too much for my budget. Scratch building was
an affordable option. I found out quickly that a bending brake was a necessity.
Here are the main criteria I considered when I designed my brake:
>
> 1. inexpensive
> 2. no welding required
> 3. worked better than the wooden brakes I found on the Internet
>
> I think I succeeded in meeting these goals. Yeah, it doesn't work like a commercial
brake. But, with a little creative thinking you can bend pretty much anything
needed to build a Zenith design.
>
> Hundreds of people from all over the world have built a "Dave's Brake". I have
shared the plans and taken the time to e-mail advice free of charge for a couple
of years now. To me, it is reward enough just knowing that maybe I've helped
other builders in pursuit of their dream.
>
> I'm not an engineer...I'm a nurse. While I appreciate any ideas that might improve
on the design, I do get tired of reading the nonconstructive criticism of
posters on this list who have never even used my brake. If someone comes up
with a better brake that meets the same criteria, I'll trash my brake and build
yours.
>
> Dave Clay
> Temple, TX
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182650#182650
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| Subject: | Chat Night Reminder |
Please join us for our Monday evening chat room starting around 8:00 PM
Eastern Time.
<http://www.mykitairplane.com/chat/> http://www.mykitairplane.com/chat/
George
CH-701 N73EX (Reserved)
Do Not Archive
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| Subject: | Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? |
Well said Mark. About time someone put things in perspective.
Do not archive
Fred Sanford, Ca. N9601 will be flying in three weeks!
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| Subject: | Re: helping kids build a plane |
Hi Juan,
It sounds like you've really gotten the ball rolling there. I was called a few
weeks ago and mentioned that the tech advisers from EAA would be a good resource
and that I was willing to show my plane to any who were interested. I'm based
at F45 (North PB County Airport).
We have a similar project (although not nearly as far-reaching as the one you are
involved with) that is trying to develop interest in aviation through the high
schools in Palm Beach County. They are headed by one of our EAA chapter members
(Paul Hershorin) and seem to be doing very well.
If I can find any avionics I'm not using, I'll let you know.
Scott Thatcher
Palm Beach EAA203
--------
Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
601XL with Corvair, Registered as E-LSA
N601EL, http://placestofly.com , EAA203
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182675#182675
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| Subject: | NC and VA Fly-ins. Anyone going? |
Any of you HD/HDS drivers going to be at either the NC event next week or the
VA event in June?
Mid Atlantic Fly-in
http://www.mafsac.com/
May 16,17,18,
Or
Virgina Regional Festival of Flight
http://www.VirginiaFlyIn.org
Saturday - Sunday, June 14-15,
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
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| Subject: | Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) |
I've been thinking about this, I'm considering putting mass balance weights on
my ailerons. I'm trying to find info on balance weight ranges forward of the hinge
line. This is probably one of those things you need to do some wind tunnel
testing on to get it right.
Andrewlieser wrote:
> Quick questions for any who wishes to answer. With all this talk of aileron
balancing I was wondering if the aircraft involved in either flutter incidents
or any of the recent accidents had standard hingless ailerons or the optional
hinged ailerons? From what I've read, pilot report wise, the hingless ailerons
require more force than the hinged for similar deflections. If this is this
case (what you are about to read is pure speculation and unsupported by any
factual data) it seems as if the hingless (original design) ailerons would be
less susceptable to flutter do to the dampening effect created by the rigidty
of the aluminum. Any thoughts? I am not an engineer nor am I a mechanic just
a plain old Joe trying to fulfill my dream of building and flying my own aircraft
so please don't take my comments the wrong way.
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182689#182689
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol |
Hi Ron,
I seldom fly over 4500 ft and the plane is based at 560 ft. I get
headaches past 9000 ft and like the scenery below 4000 much better.
Temps have to be above 20-deg F and I often fly at temps nearer 90-95
deg-F. It is moist here in the Midwest and once or twice early spring
it gets positively wet in the hangar.
It's exactly right to have concern for possible water in the fuel, but
it seems a rare occasion so far. I had water in a Luscombe 8A
30 years ago with 100LL, so it can happen.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
Ronald Steele wrote:
>
> One factor that is reported as an issue with blended gas, I'll call it
> E10, is altitude. Just curious what altitude you've been flying, and
> at way temperatures.?
>
> The users and nay-sayers of E10 seem to be miles apart. Something
> must be missing in this discussion.
>
> Ron
>
>
> On May 10, 2008, at 2:10 PM, LarryMcFarland wrote:
>
>> <larry@macsmachine.com>
>>
>>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> Ive been pleased to read these posts on blended ethanol fuel as I
>> fly a Subaru with Bings. After the first 40 test hours, Ive only
>> used 87-octane at 10% ethanol. Poor winter weather limited flying to
>> once a month and I have been concerned about water in the gasoline.
>> At preflight, I drain enough fuel from each tank to fill a qt glass
>> jar more than half way. Ive never found any sign of water or found
>> less than clear fuel so its drained back into 5-gallon storage
>> tanks. The oldest gas has been 10-12 weeks in the hangar before use
>> and the Subarus performance doesnt seem to have been affected. Ive
>> transferred older gas at the end of winter into my car with no
>> apparent problems. Ive never seen signs of water in the 601s
>> gascolator, the quart jar or the clear filter on the firewall. Im
>> only optimistic that perhaps the fuel Im using is from stations that
>> have rapid turnover fuel stocks and a handle on their water
>> separation. Im going to fly a lot more this year and have also
>> acquired a set of 5-gallon tanks that can be carried empty in the
>> wing baggage area for ease of retrieving fuel from the street.
>>
>> Thats been the experience so far.
>>
>> Do fly safe,
>>
>> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | The New Zenith Builders Analysis Group Private Forum |
As we are all painfully aware, there are a lot of people in this list who wish
to discuss and analyze wing failure accidents, at the same time, a similar sizable
number of peoples would not like to participate and are getting tired of
the increasing number of these posts, creating division and friction in this list.
Because of this, a new yahoo group called ZBAG "Zenith Builders Analysis Group"
have been created to discuss anything related to the independent analysis results
and structural failure accidents.
To alleviate any concern that an extended discussion and speculation about structural
failure can be detrimental to the reputation of the XL series, the forum
is private, unlisted and moderated.
- Private, Reading and posting messages is only open for members of the ZBAG
group. Only active members of the Matronics Zenith list will be accepted in
the group (the exception being officials of ZAC or its affiliates). Request to
join from anyone who is not a current member of the Matronics list will be politely
referred to join and participate in this list first.
- Unlisted, the ZBAG email list wont come up when you search for it in yahoo
groups.
- Moderated, anyone who can't disagree respectfully will be removed, as well
as rants against ZAC or any of its affiliates. The forum IS NOT a place to
vent frustration against any company.
To reiterate, the ZBAG group is open for any active member of the Matronics Zenith
list who want to further discuss the topic of wing failure accidents, regardless
of your position on this topic, regardless of whether or not you have financially
contributed to the independent analysis.
The rules for members of the ZBAG group are simple:
- You must agree or disagree respectfully.
- You must not use the group as place to vent frustrations against ZAC or any of
its affiliates.
- Keep using the Matronics list for anything related to building your Zenith aircraft
but not related to wing failure accidents.
- When posting about untested or unapproved changes, please acknowledge so.
Failure to adhere to the rules will result in: off list warning, on list warning
then removal.
To join the group, go to this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZBAG/ and then click "Join this Group". Please enter your Matronics name or id in the note area so I can confirm you are an active member of this list. I'll do my best to approve applications as soon as they are received.
Now I will formally invite those who want to continue these topics, to join the
new group and continue there.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
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| Subject: | Re: helping kids build a plane |
Thanx Scott,
Any help is appreciated. It should be quite a fun project.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: sdthatcher <s_thatcher@bellsouth.net>
>Sent: May 12, 2008 10:03 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: helping kids build a plane
>
>
>Hi Juan,
>
>It sounds like you've really gotten the ball rolling there. I was called a few
weeks ago and mentioned that the tech advisers from EAA would be a good resource
and that I was willing to show my plane to any who were interested. I'm based
at F45 (North PB County Airport).
>
>We have a similar project (although not nearly as far-reaching as the one you
are involved with) that is trying to develop interest in aviation through the
high schools in Palm Beach County. They are headed by one of our EAA chapter members
(Paul Hershorin) and seem to be doing very well.
>
>If I can find any avionics I'm not using, I'll let you know.
>
>Scott Thatcher
>Palm Beach EAA203
>
>--------
>Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
>601XL with Corvair, Registered as E-LSA
>N601EL, http://placestofly.com , EAA203
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182675#182675
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: About another XL Down - Brazil |
Hi Andy,
I 'll take some pictures and I'll send them for you and to others Zodiac
Builders that need.
Regards,
Roberto Brito
Brazil.
Zodiac XL 601 w/ 190hrs
Jabiru 3300
Enigma
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: About another XL Down - Brazil |
Thanks Roberto. Be interested to see what you came up with.
[quote="lenabeto(at)uol.com.br"]Hi Andy,
I 'll take some pictures and I'll send them for you and to others Zodiac Builders
that need.
Regards,
? Roberto Brito
Brazil.
Zodiac XL 601 w/ 190hrs
Jabiru 3300
Enigma
> [b]
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182738#182738
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| Subject: | Re: The New Zenith Builders Analysis Group Private Forum |
This is a really good idea. I was hoping that someone would see the value of creating
a private group for these discussions.
Thanks Bill!
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
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| Subject: | Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol |
This was my understanding of this gasohol crap too. A guy at our local chapter
actually had some system constructed where he could remove the alcohol and the
suspended water from the auto-fuel. He said it worked well (he's a chemical engineeer,
but apparently the process was all mechanical in nature) and he used
that fuel in his Beech Banaza that had the auto-fuel upgrade done to it. I'll
see if I can get some more info on it, it's worth knowing. This is actually a
mig problem in boating too. West Marine and Boater's world and what not sell
a 10 micron filter which apparently helps with the suspended water somehow. Don't
quote me on it as some miracle fix all, but it's a problem the boating world
has been dealing with too and some people swear by these new filters. I've
already had stumbling bumbling problems with my boat once or twice that only had
a standard water/fuel seperator installed inline, and the filter was new, with
new fuel, after the event I opened and drained the filter and there was no
water in it, so it was in fact water suspended in the fuel. The boat intermittantly
ran like a mower that's been sitting in the shed unused for 3 years and
you start it up, ran, then stumbled, then ran, then bogged down and nearly stalled,
then ran fine, then stumbling etc...
bryanmmartin wrote:
> If you are using gasoline with 10% alcohol in it, you won't see any
> water in your samples or your gascolator because any water will be
> held in suspension in the fuel by the alcohol -- up to a point, that
> is. If enough water gets into the fuel, it will all settle out to the
> bottom of the tank taking the alcohol with it. At this point, you will
> now have gasoline with a significantly reduced octane rating floating
> over a mixture of water and alcohol, neither substance will do nice
> things for your engine. This is exactly how you test for alcohol in
> gasoline, mix about 10% water with the gas and see if the apparent
> water level increases as it settles out. So if you ever do find
> "water" in your fuel tank while using gasohol, you might as well drain
> the entire tank because the remaining gasoline in the tank will
> probably have too low an octane rating to be safely used in your
> Subaru engine.
>
> When gas stations start using gasohol, they no longer have to drain
> the water from their tank sumps because all the water gets pumped into
> the gas tanks of their customers cars mixed with the fuel. On the
> other hand, if the storage tank has a lot of water in it before that
> first load of gasohol gets dumped into it, the next customers will
> pump either low octane gas or the water/alcohol mix into their cars,
> depending on whether the separation point ends up above or below the
> level of the pump intakes.
>
> Cold winter air can't hold a lot of water, so there isn't a lot to get
> absorbed by the alcohol in the gasoline. Hot summer air can hold a lot
> of water.
>
>
> >
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > I?ve been pleased to read these posts on blended ethanol fuel as I
> > fly a Subaru with Bings. After the first 40 test hours, I?ve only
> > used 87-octane at 10% ethanol. Poor winter weather limited flying to
> > once a month and I have been concerned about water in the gasoline.
> > At preflight, I drain enough fuel from each tank to fill a qt glass
> > jar more than half way. I?ve never found any sign of water or found
> > less than clear fuel so it?s drained back into 5-gallon storage
> > tanks. The oldest gas has been 10-12 weeks in the hangar before use
> > and the Subaru?s performance doesn?t seem to have been affected.
> > I?ve transferred older gas at the end of winter into my car with no
> > apparent problems. I?ve never seen signs of water in the 601?s
> > gascolator, the quart jar or the clear filter on the firewall. I?m
> > only optimistic that perhaps the fuel I?m using is from stations
> > that have rapid turnover fuel stocks and a handle on their water
> > separation. I?m going to fly a lot more this year and have also
> > acquired a set of 5-gallon tanks that can be carried empty in the
> > wing baggage area for ease of retrieving fuel from the ?street?.
> >
> > That?s been the experience so far.
> >
> > Do fly safe,
> >
> > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL,
> RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182780#182780
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| Subject: | Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol |
Not looking at the STC you buddy has for his Beech I can't be 100% sure but if
it calls for say 87 octane and he is removing the Ethanol out of the 87 Octane
he isn't flying with 87 octane fuel and is in violation of the STC.
Now he may be pulling the Ethanol out of a higher grade gas and his STC is calling
for a lower grade and that MIGHT make him OK but he might have to prove what
the octane is on the gas some day.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
Dave
I have built one of you benders and have the bowing of longer pieces.
I have checked everthing and watched this thread and suggestions.
The rivet line as I have on my setup is 1/2 inch from hinge.
I think on the longer heaver bends I am getting flex in the stainless hinge
material opening bend in center.
I am going to try putting double the rivets but much closer to the hinge pin
hopefully reduce flex.
I will let the group know how it went after it is modified.
It is a good cheap bender Dave
if i can get this sorted it will be perfect
Thanks Graemecns
----- Original Message -----
From: "ashontz" <ashontz@nbme.org>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 9:57 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Bending- again...
>
> Dave, I wasn't trashing your brake, it's just a different design. Mine is
> designed around a stretch Zenith design, but I had to add tensioners top
> and bottom. It's just the nature of the beast. I actually made a brake
> like yours first, but I wasn't satisfied with what I was seeing as a
> completed part due to the distance between the tongue and clamp which is
> due to the pivot point being below and out of the brake bed, and so I
> backed up and spent a good 4 weeks making a stretch Zenith design, and
> still had to tweak the new one a lot. I'm just saying that after building
> both designs, even the one that's designed more like an industrial type
> brake, there's still a lot of considerations to be taken into account.
> Bending is not as mundane as it would first appear and I have a new
> appreciation for that now. I would have loved to have made Larry
> McFarland's brake, but I didn't have and milling machine at the time to
> make a lot of those parts, so I tried to design mine per Zenith's !
> design, but was stretched and beefed up, but could still be made with
> fairly simple hand tools. Your brake is infinitely better than using a
> house siding bender, and yet people have used house siding benders to make
> these parts as well. I see this conversation as more of a techinical
> discussion of what's actually involved in bending, not as some slam
> session, so don't take it personally. That fact that people here have
> found ways to bend parts without dropping $8,500 - $10,000 on a bending
> brake is the real achivement.
>
>
> TxDave wrote:
>> When I started building, a kit was too much for my budget. Scratch
>> building was an affordable option. I found out quickly that a bending
>> brake was a necessity. Here are the main criteria I considered when I
>> designed my brake:
>>
>> 1. inexpensive
>> 2. no welding required
>> 3. worked better than the wooden brakes I found on the Internet
>>
>> I think I succeeded in meeting these goals. Yeah, it doesn't work like a
>> commercial brake. But, with a little creative thinking you can bend
>> pretty much anything needed to build a Zenith design.
>>
>> Hundreds of people from all over the world have built a "Dave's Brake". I
>> have shared the plans and taken the time to e-mail advice free of charge
>> for a couple of years now. To me, it is reward enough just knowing that
>> maybe I've helped other builders in pursuit of their dream.
>>
>> I'm not an engineer...I'm a nurse. While I appreciate any ideas that
>> might improve on the design, I do get tired of reading the
>> nonconstructive criticism of posters on this list who have never even
>> used my brake. If someone comes up with a better brake that meets the
>> same criteria, I'll trash my brake and build yours.
>>
>> Dave Clay
>> Temple, TX
>
>
> --------
> Andy Shontz
>
> do not archive
>
> CH601XL - Corvair
> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182650#182650
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 12/05/2008 6:14 PM
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol |
I think he's using 93.
Gig, do you have any good info on this ethanol stuff. I'm actually quite interested
in the whole deal. I've seen first hand problems with my boat and I sure
as hell wouldn't want to see a similar problem with my plane. The engines just
bog down and produce about 25% power at best.
Gig Giacona wrote:
> Not looking at the STC you buddy has for his Beech I can't be 100% sure but if
it calls for say 87 octane and he is removing the Ethanol out of the 87 Octane
he isn't flying with 87 octane fuel and is in violation of the STC.
>
> Now he may be pulling the Ethanol out of a higher grade gas and his STC is calling
for a lower grade and that MIGHT make him OK but he might have to prove
what the octane is on the gas some day.
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
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| Subject: | Re: Bending- again... |
After looking closely at my Dave's brake last night and removing the hinge pin,
I discovered what is happening is that the rivets aren't pulling at all. The
the hinge rolls are bending and coming away from the angle iron base plate. See
photo.
The hinge is fine on the bending plate, as the stress is horizontal across the
hinge leaf when the plate is rotated up to the bending position, thereby transferring
the forces laterally across the rivets.
I'm going to straighten it, then tack weld the hinge at each of the rolls. Then
I will bend no heavier than .025 with it. The rest I will farm out or buy the
bits from Zenair.
BTW Andy, I'm interested in your extended Zenair brake in case this doesn't work,
but I can't find the plans... can you direct me?
Glenn
--------
Glenn Andressen
601XL- just started.
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| Subject: | Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? |
Ben,
A wise man once said "those who live in a wooden house had best not throw flames.
:)"
I stick by my contention that you have to add 1 G for steady state not withstanding
how G meters are calibrated. Of course if you are in orbit I take it back,
certain hyperbolic flight paths can also result in zero G. In level flight
the weight of the aircraft (1G) is pulling down, and this is balanced by lift.
So while the ground holds the airplane up on the ground, the wings have to
do it in flight.
Another thing I disagree about is the idea that he didn't see those extremes because
he still had 70 MPH of speed left. The thing that matters is the change
in speed in the direction he was going. In fact the calculated acceleration
would have a higher magnitude if he exited the maneuver in the opposite direction
he started it. Another way to think about it is that a change in direction
IS a change in velocity. So I've been sloppy when using the word "speed" instead
of velocity.
I'm no scientist so I hope everyone is smart enough to take what I say with a grain
of salt.
Off to Monday night chat!
Dan
[quote="n801bh(at)netzero.com"]Hi Leinad, First let me get this out, my guess is
just that, A guess based on my past experiences while doing different flight
maneuvers. You could be as correct as me but here is my reasoning... While is
steady state flight like making a low pass before the pull up the G meter will
read 0 G's. Not 1 like you propose. Any change in direction will influence the
G meter either up or down or sideways. Your numbers of terminal velocity are
probably real close and it is the only way to even get a realistic wild ass
guess. If I were to amend my first guess I wouls add a G to the pull up at the
far end because upon further viewing of the video it really looks like a pretty
hard yank and bank. It is so far away that nobody will probably closely guess
the true G force on that one. The second one in front of the camera is a very
smooth pull up and bank. In my mind he didn't change course 90 degrees in either
axis so your figures of deceleration is skewed, also his "speed almost gone"
concept is probably in error because to me he flew off at what looks like
70+ mph. Now if he really did a sharp pull up to a hammerhead stall in 2.5 seconds
your numbers would be realistic. This is just my take and I could be entirely
out to lunch... I am putting my Flame suit on for this one too ......
do not archive..
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "leinad" wrote:
Ben,
I'd like to know how you estimated the G forces.
If I do some simple calculations, based on a guess of how fast the plane was going
I get a much higher answer than your estimated 1.8 max during the second pull
up.
The plane looks to be going about 200 feet per second.. or 137 mph, as the pilot
traded altitude for speed and the plane is capable of that speed in normal cruise.
(This is where I could be completely wrong) He arrested all of that speed
in the direction of the pass in 2 and half seconds. That gives an average
acceleration of -80 feet/sec/sec during the 2.5 seconds the velocity was bled
off. Dividing by 32 gives us 2.5 Gs if the deceleration were uniformly distributed
through out the pull up, but much more likely there were almost no Gs at
the end since the speed was almost gone, so the distribution of the force due
to the pull up probably peeked near 5 G at the bottom, so that the average could
still be 2.5. You also have to add 1 G for the steady state level flight,
as that is what the wings are normally holding up. So there may have been a peek
G at around 6 at the bottom of the final pull up. And that only if the pilot
put in perfectly smooth gradual input, and the!
re were zero turbulence.
What struck me when I saw the video the first time was here was a very experienced
agricultural pilot flying his 601XL like it were a crop duster.
[quote="n801bh(at)netzero.com"]The pull up at the far end of the field is kinda
hard to really see but I will guess 2.2- 2.5 G's. The last pass right in front
of the camera is maybe 1.5 -1.8 at best and flown real smooth. Remember one
can make some impressive manauvers and if kept smooth in control imputs it hardly
reaches more then 1.5 G's.. Well within range of a +6, -3 airframe..
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Sabrina" wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlpLeVvep7k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X8GcFqTpYM
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| Subject: | Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) |
I went with the hingeless ailerons as recommended from the factory (vis a vis they
came in the kit like that) and then I took it a step further and used push
tubes to control ailerons. No cables. didn't want to mess with all of the fairing
material and placement. After 20 hours, N107R is like a tank. I will say
that I had an interesting moment landing with the right tank empty and left
full in a little crosswind. this happened when I was preparing to fuel up an empty
tank for the Dynon. Who ever said that the hingeless ailerons are stiffer
is correct. While doing racetracks over the airport to burn off fuel (so I could
calibrate the empty fuel tank to the Dynon) aileron pressure needed to turn
was impressive. so I took to turning with the rudder. Much easier. I cannot
imagine how they could possible flutter with the push rods though. N107R
is a very great ride!
19 hours left on Phase I testing.
Dave Nixon Ch601XL N107R
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| Subject: | Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) |
I'd be interested in seeing some pics of the pushtube setup for the ailerons.
Thanks
Dave Nixon wrote:
> I went with the hingeless ailerons as recommended from the factory (vis a vis
they came in the kit like that) and then I took it a step further and used push
tubes to control ailerons. No cables. didn't want to mess with all of the
fairing material and placement. After 20 hours, N107R is like a tank. I will
say that I had an interesting moment landing with the right tank empty and left
full in a little crosswind. this happened when I was preparing to fuel up an
empty tank for the Dynon. Who ever said that the hingeless ailerons are stiffer
is correct. While doing racetracks over the airport to burn off fuel (so I
could calibrate the empty fuel tank to the Dynon) aileron pressure needed to
turn was impressive. so I took to turning with the rudder. Much easier. I cannot
imagine how they could possible flutter with the push rods though. N107R
is a very great ride!
> 19 hours left on Phase I testing.
> Dave Nixon Ch601XL N107R
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
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| Subject: | Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? |
Does the HD or HDS meet the "light sport" requirements for stall speeds, and
other specification requirements?
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| Subject: | Re: NC and VA Fly-ins. Anyone going? |
I'm not a HD or HDS driver, but I'll likely be driving to the Virginia Fly In in
Suffolk in my Miata.
Dan Dempsey
601XL/Corvair plans builder
[quote="airvair601(at)yahoo.com"]Any of you HD/HDS drivers going to be at either
the NC event next week or the VA event in June?
Mid Atlantic Fly-in
http://www.mafsac.com/ (http://www.mafsac.com/)
May 16,17,18,
Or
Virgina Regional Festival of Flight
http://www.VirginiaFlyIn.org (http://www.virginiaflyin.org/)
Saturday - Sunday, June 14-15,
Be a better friend, newshound, and
> [b]
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
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| Subject: | Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? |
YES, to all. Jerry of GA
In a message dated 5/12/2008 9:20:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
dforney@bctonline.com writes:
Does the HD or HDS meet the =9Clight sport=9D requirements for
stall speeds,
and other specification requirements?
**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
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| Subject: | Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? |
Not true. please refer to the Zenith specs. HD is the original Light sprt, originally
an upgraded 600. HDS is not LSA.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Jeyoung65@aol.com
>Sent: May 12, 2008 9:48 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead?
>
>YES, to all. Jerry of GA
>
>
>In a message dated 5/12/2008 9:20:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>dforney@bctonline.com writes:
>
>
>Does the HD or HDS meet the light sport requirements for stall speeds,
>and other specification requirements?
>
>
>**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
>favorites at AOL Food.
>(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
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| Subject: | Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol |
Andy,
the reason your boat may have issues on ethanol is your tanks may be glass or plastic,
and your hoses may not be ethanol tolerant. Many boats are having to
have their tanks replaced due to this. Dude, your boat sounds like it needs some
major ayuda! 25% power, ouch!
Your plane (depending on engine compession) can take ethanol depending on hoses
and plastics in carburator. Set up the plane to burn ethanol correctly and you
should not have issues. On the 3300 Jabiru, I have NASCAR race lines that
can take ethanol, and the carbi is set for some ethonal tollerance. depends on
the compression of the engine as well. The EGTs may burn hotter so you may
need to burn the engine at cruise richer.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: ashontz <ashontz@nbme.org>
>Sent: May 12, 2008 6:56 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol
>
>
>I think he's using 93.
>
>Gig, do you have any good info on this ethanol stuff. I'm actually quite interested
in the whole deal. I've seen first hand problems with my boat and I sure
as hell wouldn't want to see a similar problem with my plane. The engines just
bog down and produce about 25% power at best.
>
>
>Gig Giacona wrote:
>> Not looking at the STC you buddy has for his Beech I can't be 100% sure but
if it calls for say 87 octane and he is removing the Ethanol out of the 87 Octane
he isn't flying with 87 octane fuel and is in violation of the STC.
>>
>> Now he may be pulling the Ethanol out of a higher grade gas and his STC is calling
for a lower grade and that MIGHT make him OK but he might have to prove
what the octane is on the gas some day.
>
>
>--------
>Andy Shontz
>
>do not archive
>
>CH601XL - Corvair
>www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182795#182795
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? |
Guessing how many Gs another plane pulls is like reading tea leaves. Good
luck. This was an Ag pilot. The so called "crop duster" turn is less G than you
think. Ag pilots don't like to pull Gs for two reasons: Eight hours of high G
is tiring and its foolish to do high G close to the ground with a heavy load.
The loop is real slow over the top in a plane with wing loading less than 10
lbs per sq foot. (1320 lbs at t.o. with 132 sq ft) The big problem with looping
a 100 HP plane is falling out of the top with inadequate airspeed. Low stress.
Even more embarrassing is not even making it to the top and then back
sliding. Stresses the control surfaces, could even "blow your flaps down," but
otherwise low stress. If you are teaching a former military pilot, expect this
because they always over estimate that puny 100 HP and try to make really big
diameter loops.
Barrel rolls are low stress and are started like Chandelles and lazy eights.
(Commercial maneuvers done in spam cans) Do a YouTube search for "Bob Hoover,"
turn up your volume and listen to his story about rolling a SabreLiner with a
load of Generals. While he is talking, he is pouring iced tea into a tumbler
on the glare shield. He is doing a barrel roll with his other hand. Like the
prototype BO-707 did.
Install a G meter or accelerometer. A cheap fish scale will do in a pinch.
Get someone to show you how to do this stuff if you are going to do it. Start
with a level 60 degree banked turn. Experience two Gs. Light a candle, don't
curse the darkness. Remember, a 601 ain't a Pitts.
Bob Do not archive
**************
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| Subject: | Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? |
Another thing about steady state Gs. It is not zero but rather its one. I am
looking at the Accelerometer, AKA G meter sitting above my fireplace. Its
reading one as we speak.
Bob Do not archive
**************
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| Subject: | Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? |
My HDS meets LSA. FAA says each experimental aircraft is unique.
--
Leo Gates
N601Z - CH601HDS TDO
Rotax 912UL
Juan Vega wrote:
>
> Not true. please refer to the Zenith specs. HD is the original Light sprt, originally
an upgraded 600. HDS is not LSA.
>
> Juan
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>> From: Jeyoung65@aol.com
>> Sent: May 12, 2008 9:48 PM
>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead?
>>
>> YES, to all. Jerry of GA
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 5/12/2008 9:20:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>> dforney@bctonline.com writes:
>>
>>
>> Does the HD or HDS meet the light sport requirements for stall speeds,
>> and other specification requirements?
>>
>>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) |
I have flown Piper Cherokees that have optional gap seals installed over the hinges
to reduce drag or air flow through the wing. With the hingeless design the
gap seals are already there. I think the hingeless aileron is a very elegant
design.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
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| Subject: | Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? |
Juan:
You are wrong. My HDS easily met the Light Sport criteria.
Stan Challgren
On May 12, 2008, at 8:03 PM, Juan Vega wrote:
<amyvega2005@earthlink.net
> >
>
> Not true. please refer to the Zenith specs. HD is the original Light
> sprt, originally an upgraded 600. HDS is not LSA.
>
> Juan
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jeyoung65@aol.com
>> Sent: May 12, 2008 9:48 PM
>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going
>> with a HD instead?
>>
>> YES, to all. Jerry of GA
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 5/12/2008 9:20:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>> dforney@bctonline.com writes:
>>
>>
>> Does the HD or HDS meet the =93light sport=94 requirements for stall
>> speeds,
>> and other specification requirements?
>>
>
>
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|
Has anyone ever installed an O-290. I have one available for a great price,
but just do not know if it is possible. My XL fuselage is nearing
completion and I need to really get started on FWF.
Larry Husky
Madras, Oregon
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