---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/12/08: 32 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:48 AM - Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- (Martin Pohl) 2. 05:00 AM - Re: Bending- again... (ashontz) 3. 06:55 AM - Chat Night Reminder (George Race) 4. 07:01 AM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (sonar1@cox.net) 5. 07:05 AM - Re: helping kids build a plane (sdthatcher) 6. 07:16 AM - NC and VA Fly-ins. Anyone going? (601corvair) 7. 07:40 AM - Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) (ashontz) 8. 07:58 AM - Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol (LarryMcFarland) 9. 08:26 AM - The New Zenith Builders Analysis Group Private Forum (William Dominguez) 10. 09:18 AM - Re: Re: helping kids build a plane (Juan Vega) 11. 09:30 AM - Re: About another XL Down - Brazil (Roberto Brito) 12. 09:57 AM - Re: About another XL Down - Brazil (ashontz) 13. 10:48 AM - Re: The New Zenith Builders Analysis Group Private Forum (Tim Juhl) 14. 02:19 PM - Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol (ashontz) 15. 02:59 PM - Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol (Gig Giacona) 16. 03:55 PM - Re: Re: Bending- again... (Graeme) 17. 03:58 PM - Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol (ashontz) 18. 04:47 PM - Re: Bending- again... (Jugle) 19. 05:07 PM - Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? (leinad) 20. 05:30 PM - Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) (Dave Nixon) 21. 06:04 PM - Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) (ashontz) 22. 06:19 PM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (Dan Forney) 23. 06:42 PM - Re: NC and VA Fly-ins. Anyone going? (leinad) 24. 06:50 PM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (Jeyoung65@aol.com) 25. 07:06 PM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (Juan Vega) 26. 07:14 PM - Re: Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol (Juan Vega) 27. 07:32 PM - Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? (MaxNr@aol.com) 28. 08:12 PM - Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? (MaxNr@aol.com) 29. 08:29 PM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (Leo Gates) 30. 08:39 PM - Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) (Ron Lendon) 31. 08:59 PM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (Stanley Challgren) 32. 09:15 PM - O-290 install (LHusky@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:48:32 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith Builders Analysis Group -- From: "Martin Pohl" I found a good report from DLR (German Research Institute for Aviation and Space Flight) about aileron flutter (see abstract below). PhD Mr. Kiessling sent me a copy of this report. http://elib.dlr.de/39473/ Unfortunately the electronic copy is in German only. I have a hardcopy in English. Nevertheless I will contact Mr. Kiessling if he can provide an english electronic copy. The idea is to check and adjust aileron/elevator/rudder balancing with simple means. If somebody is interested, has a good amount of time, has some engineering background and is up for doing such tests on his/hers Zodiac, feel free to contact me! The tests have to be done on already painted control surfaces BEFORE they are attached to the wing and AFTER they are attached to the wing and connected to the entire control system (i.e. wings then need to be installed to the fuselage). That would be possible e.g. with a nearly finished XL when wings can be installed, but ailerons only attached with clecoes. Cheers Martin -------- Martin Pohl Zodiac XL QBK 8645 Jona, Switzerland www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182644#182644 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:00:42 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Bending- again... From: "ashontz" Dave, I wasn't trashing your brake, it's just a different design. Mine is designed around a stretch Zenith design, but I had to add tensioners top and bottom. It's just the nature of the beast. I actually made a brake like yours first, but I wasn't satisfied with what I was seeing as a completed part due to the distance between the tongue and clamp which is due to the pivot point being below and out of the brake bed, and so I backed up and spent a good 4 weeks making a stretch Zenith design, and still had to tweak the new one a lot. I'm just saying that after building both designs, even the one that's designed more like an industrial type brake, there's still a lot of considerations to be taken into account. Bending is not as mundane as it would first appear and I have a new appreciation for that now. I would have loved to have made Larry McFarland's brake, but I didn't have and milling machine at the time to make a lot of those parts, so I tried to design mine per Zenith's design, but was stretched and beefed up, but could still be made with fairly simple hand tools. Your brake is infinitely better than using a house siding bender, and yet people have used house siding benders to make these parts as well. I see this conversation as more of a techinical discussion of what's actually involved in bending, not as some slam session, so don't take it personally. That fact that people here have found ways to bend parts without dropping $8,500 - $10,000 on a bending brake is the real achivement. TxDave wrote: > When I started building, a kit was too much for my budget. Scratch building was an affordable option. I found out quickly that a bending brake was a necessity. Here are the main criteria I considered when I designed my brake: > > 1. inexpensive > 2. no welding required > 3. worked better than the wooden brakes I found on the Internet > > I think I succeeded in meeting these goals. Yeah, it doesn't work like a commercial brake. But, with a little creative thinking you can bend pretty much anything needed to build a Zenith design. > > Hundreds of people from all over the world have built a "Dave's Brake". I have shared the plans and taken the time to e-mail advice free of charge for a couple of years now. To me, it is reward enough just knowing that maybe I've helped other builders in pursuit of their dream. > > I'm not an engineer...I'm a nurse. While I appreciate any ideas that might improve on the design, I do get tired of reading the nonconstructive criticism of posters on this list who have never even used my brake. If someone comes up with a better brake that meets the same criteria, I'll trash my brake and build yours. > > Dave Clay > Temple, TX -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182650#182650 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:38 AM PST US From: "George Race" Subject: Zenith-List: Chat Night Reminder Please join us for our Monday evening chat room starting around 8:00 PM Eastern Time. http://www.mykitairplane.com/chat/ George CH-701 N73EX (Reserved) Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:07 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? From: "sonar1@cox.net" Well said Mark. About time someone put things in perspective. Do not archive Fred Sanford, Ca. N9601 will be flying in three weeks! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182672#182672 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:44 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: helping kids build a plane From: "sdthatcher" Hi Juan, It sounds like you've really gotten the ball rolling there. I was called a few weeks ago and mentioned that the tech advisers from EAA would be a good resource and that I was willing to show my plane to any who were interested. I'm based at F45 (North PB County Airport). We have a similar project (although not nearly as far-reaching as the one you are involved with) that is trying to develop interest in aviation through the high schools in Palm Beach County. They are headed by one of our EAA chapter members (Paul Hershorin) and seem to be doing very well. If I can find any avionics I'm not using, I'll let you know. Scott Thatcher Palm Beach EAA203 -------- Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL 601XL with Corvair, Registered as E-LSA N601EL, http://placestofly.com , EAA203 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182675#182675 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:59 AM PST US From: 601corvair Subject: Zenith-List: NC and VA Fly-ins. Anyone going? Any of you HD/HDS drivers going to be at either the NC event next week or the VA event in June? Mid Atlantic Fly-in http://www.mafsac.com/ May 16,17,18, Or Virgina Regional Festival of Flight http://www.VirginiaFlyIn.org Saturday - Sunday, June 14-15, --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:40:30 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) From: "ashontz" I've been thinking about this, I'm considering putting mass balance weights on my ailerons. I'm trying to find info on balance weight ranges forward of the hinge line. This is probably one of those things you need to do some wind tunnel testing on to get it right. Andrewlieser wrote: > Quick questions for any who wishes to answer. With all this talk of aileron balancing I was wondering if the aircraft involved in either flutter incidents or any of the recent accidents had standard hingless ailerons or the optional hinged ailerons? From what I've read, pilot report wise, the hingless ailerons require more force than the hinged for similar deflections. If this is this case (what you are about to read is pure speculation and unsupported by any factual data) it seems as if the hingless (original design) ailerons would be less susceptable to flutter do to the dampening effect created by the rigidty of the aluminum. Any thoughts? I am not an engineer nor am I a mechanic just a plain old Joe trying to fulfill my dream of building and flying my own aircraft so please don't take my comments the wrong way. -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182689#182689 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:45 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: using 87-0ctane with ethanol Hi Ron, I seldom fly over 4500 ft and the plane is based at 560 ft. I get headaches past 9000 ft and like the scenery below 4000 much better. Temps have to be above 20-deg F and I often fly at temps nearer 90-95 deg-F. It is moist here in the Midwest and once or twice early spring it gets positively wet in the hangar. It's exactly right to have concern for possible water in the fuel, but it seems a rare occasion so far. I had water in a Luscombe 8A 30 years ago with 100LL, so it can happen. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Ronald Steele wrote: > > One factor that is reported as an issue with blended gas, I'll call it > E10, is altitude. Just curious what altitude you've been flying, and > at way temperatures.? > > The users and nay-sayers of E10 seem to be miles apart. Something > must be missing in this discussion. > > Ron > > > On May 10, 2008, at 2:10 PM, LarryMcFarland wrote: > >> >> >> >> Hi guys, >> >> Ive been pleased to read these posts on blended ethanol fuel as I >> fly a Subaru with Bings. After the first 40 test hours, Ive only >> used 87-octane at 10% ethanol. Poor winter weather limited flying to >> once a month and I have been concerned about water in the gasoline. >> At preflight, I drain enough fuel from each tank to fill a qt glass >> jar more than half way. Ive never found any sign of water or found >> less than clear fuel so its drained back into 5-gallon storage >> tanks. The oldest gas has been 10-12 weeks in the hangar before use >> and the Subarus performance doesnt seem to have been affected. Ive >> transferred older gas at the end of winter into my car with no >> apparent problems. Ive never seen signs of water in the 601s >> gascolator, the quart jar or the clear filter on the firewall. Im >> only optimistic that perhaps the fuel Im using is from stations that >> have rapid turnover fuel stocks and a handle on their water >> separation. Im going to fly a lot more this year and have also >> acquired a set of 5-gallon tanks that can be carried empty in the >> wing baggage area for ease of retrieving fuel from the street. >> >> Thats been the experience so far. >> >> Do fly safe, >> >> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:38 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Zenith-List: The New Zenith Builders Analysis Group Private Forum As we are all painfully aware, there are a lot of people in this list who wish to discuss and analyze wing failure accidents, at the same time, a similar sizable number of peoples would not like to participate and are getting tired of the increasing number of these posts, creating division and friction in this list. Because of this, a new yahoo group called ZBAG "Zenith Builders Analysis Group" have been created to discuss anything related to the independent analysis results and structural failure accidents. To alleviate any concern that an extended discussion and speculation about structural failure can be detrimental to the reputation of the XL series, the forum is private, unlisted and moderated. - Private, Reading and posting messages is only open for members of the ZBAG group. Only active members of the Matronics Zenith list will be accepted in the group (the exception being officials of ZAC or its affiliates). Request to join from anyone who is not a current member of the Matronics list will be politely referred to join and participate in this list first. - Unlisted, the ZBAG email list wont come up when you search for it in yahoo groups. - Moderated, anyone who can't disagree respectfully will be removed, as well as rants against ZAC or any of its affiliates. The forum IS NOT a place to vent frustration against any company. To reiterate, the ZBAG group is open for any active member of the Matronics Zenith list who want to further discuss the topic of wing failure accidents, regardless of your position on this topic, regardless of whether or not you have financially contributed to the independent analysis. The rules for members of the ZBAG group are simple: - You must agree or disagree respectfully. - You must not use the group as place to vent frustrations against ZAC or any of its affiliates. - Keep using the Matronics list for anything related to building your Zenith aircraft but not related to wing failure accidents. - When posting about untested or unapproved changes, please acknowledge so. Failure to adhere to the rules will result in: off list warning, on list warning then removal. To join the group, go to this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZBAG/ and then click "Join this Group". Please enter your Matronics name or id in the note area so I can confirm you are an active member of this list. I'll do my best to approve applications as soon as they are received. Now I will formally invite those who want to continue these topics, to join the new group and continue there. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:18:13 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: helping kids build a plane Thanx Scott, Any help is appreciated. It should be quite a fun project. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: sdthatcher >Sent: May 12, 2008 10:03 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: helping kids build a plane > > >Hi Juan, > >It sounds like you've really gotten the ball rolling there. I was called a few weeks ago and mentioned that the tech advisers from EAA would be a good resource and that I was willing to show my plane to any who were interested. I'm based at F45 (North PB County Airport). > >We have a similar project (although not nearly as far-reaching as the one you are involved with) that is trying to develop interest in aviation through the high schools in Palm Beach County. They are headed by one of our EAA chapter members (Paul Hershorin) and seem to be doing very well. > >If I can find any avionics I'm not using, I'll let you know. > >Scott Thatcher >Palm Beach EAA203 > >-------- >Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL >601XL with Corvair, Registered as E-LSA >N601EL, http://placestofly.com , EAA203 > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182675#182675 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:01 AM PST US From: "Roberto Brito" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: About another XL Down - Brazil Hi Andy, I 'll take some pictures and I'll send them for you and to others Zodiac Builders that need. Regards, Roberto Brito Brazil. Zodiac XL 601 w/ 190hrs Jabiru 3300 Enigma ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:53 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: About another XL Down - Brazil From: "ashontz" Thanks Roberto. Be interested to see what you came up with. [quote="lenabeto(at)uol.com.br"]Hi Andy, I 'll take some pictures and I'll send them for you and to others Zodiac Builders that need. Regards, ? Roberto Brito Brazil. Zodiac XL 601 w/ 190hrs Jabiru 3300 Enigma > [b] -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182738#182738 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:48:33 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: The New Zenith Builders Analysis Group Private Forum From: "Tim Juhl" This is a really good idea. I was hoping that someone would see the value of creating a private group for these discussions. Thanks Bill! -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182746#182746 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:41 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol From: "ashontz" This was my understanding of this gasohol crap too. A guy at our local chapter actually had some system constructed where he could remove the alcohol and the suspended water from the auto-fuel. He said it worked well (he's a chemical engineeer, but apparently the process was all mechanical in nature) and he used that fuel in his Beech Banaza that had the auto-fuel upgrade done to it. I'll see if I can get some more info on it, it's worth knowing. This is actually a mig problem in boating too. West Marine and Boater's world and what not sell a 10 micron filter which apparently helps with the suspended water somehow. Don't quote me on it as some miracle fix all, but it's a problem the boating world has been dealing with too and some people swear by these new filters. I've already had stumbling bumbling problems with my boat once or twice that only had a standard water/fuel seperator installed inline, and the filter was new, with new fuel, after the event I opened and drained the filter and there was no water in it, so it was in fact water suspended in the fuel. The boat intermittantly ran like a mower that's been sitting in the shed unused for 3 years and you start it up, ran, then stumbled, then ran, then bogged down and nearly stalled, then ran fine, then stumbling etc... bryanmmartin wrote: > If you are using gasoline with 10% alcohol in it, you won't see any > water in your samples or your gascolator because any water will be > held in suspension in the fuel by the alcohol -- up to a point, that > is. If enough water gets into the fuel, it will all settle out to the > bottom of the tank taking the alcohol with it. At this point, you will > now have gasoline with a significantly reduced octane rating floating > over a mixture of water and alcohol, neither substance will do nice > things for your engine. This is exactly how you test for alcohol in > gasoline, mix about 10% water with the gas and see if the apparent > water level increases as it settles out. So if you ever do find > "water" in your fuel tank while using gasohol, you might as well drain > the entire tank because the remaining gasoline in the tank will > probably have too low an octane rating to be safely used in your > Subaru engine. > > When gas stations start using gasohol, they no longer have to drain > the water from their tank sumps because all the water gets pumped into > the gas tanks of their customers cars mixed with the fuel. On the > other hand, if the storage tank has a lot of water in it before that > first load of gasohol gets dumped into it, the next customers will > pump either low octane gas or the water/alcohol mix into their cars, > depending on whether the separation point ends up above or below the > level of the pump intakes. > > Cold winter air can't hold a lot of water, so there isn't a lot to get > absorbed by the alcohol in the gasoline. Hot summer air can hold a lot > of water. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi guys, > > > > I?ve been pleased to read these posts on blended ethanol fuel as I > > fly a Subaru with Bings. After the first 40 test hours, I?ve only > > used 87-octane at 10% ethanol. Poor winter weather limited flying to > > once a month and I have been concerned about water in the gasoline. > > At preflight, I drain enough fuel from each tank to fill a qt glass > > jar more than half way. I?ve never found any sign of water or found > > less than clear fuel so it?s drained back into 5-gallon storage > > tanks. The oldest gas has been 10-12 weeks in the hangar before use > > and the Subaru?s performance doesn?t seem to have been affected. > > I?ve transferred older gas at the end of winter into my car with no > > apparent problems. I?ve never seen signs of water in the 601?s > > gascolator, the quart jar or the clear filter on the firewall. I?m > > only optimistic that perhaps the fuel I?m using is from stations > > that have rapid turnover fuel stocks and a handle on their water > > separation. I?m going to fly a lot more this year and have also > > acquired a set of 5-gallon tanks that can be carried empty in the > > wing baggage area for ease of retrieving fuel from the ?street?. > > > > That?s been the experience so far. > > > > Do fly safe, > > > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > > > > > > > > > -- > Bryan Martin > N61BM, CH 601 XL, > RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182780#182780 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:59:09 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol From: "Gig Giacona" Not looking at the STC you buddy has for his Beech I can't be 100% sure but if it calls for say 87 octane and he is removing the Ethanol out of the 87 Octane he isn't flying with 87 octane fuel and is in violation of the STC. Now he may be pulling the Ethanol out of a higher grade gas and his STC is calling for a lower grade and that MIGHT make him OK but he might have to prove what the octane is on the gas some day. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182784#182784 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:55:57 PM PST US From: "Graeme" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Bending- again... Dave I have built one of you benders and have the bowing of longer pieces. I have checked everthing and watched this thread and suggestions. The rivet line as I have on my setup is 1/2 inch from hinge. I think on the longer heaver bends I am getting flex in the stainless hinge material opening bend in center. I am going to try putting double the rivets but much closer to the hinge pin hopefully reduce flex. I will let the group know how it went after it is modified. It is a good cheap bender Dave if i can get this sorted it will be perfect Thanks Graemecns ----- Original Message ----- From: "ashontz" Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 9:57 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Bending- again... > > Dave, I wasn't trashing your brake, it's just a different design. Mine is > designed around a stretch Zenith design, but I had to add tensioners top > and bottom. It's just the nature of the beast. I actually made a brake > like yours first, but I wasn't satisfied with what I was seeing as a > completed part due to the distance between the tongue and clamp which is > due to the pivot point being below and out of the brake bed, and so I > backed up and spent a good 4 weeks making a stretch Zenith design, and > still had to tweak the new one a lot. I'm just saying that after building > both designs, even the one that's designed more like an industrial type > brake, there's still a lot of considerations to be taken into account. > Bending is not as mundane as it would first appear and I have a new > appreciation for that now. I would have loved to have made Larry > McFarland's brake, but I didn't have and milling machine at the time to > make a lot of those parts, so I tried to design mine per Zenith's ! > design, but was stretched and beefed up, but could still be made with > fairly simple hand tools. Your brake is infinitely better than using a > house siding bender, and yet people have used house siding benders to make > these parts as well. I see this conversation as more of a techinical > discussion of what's actually involved in bending, not as some slam > session, so don't take it personally. That fact that people here have > found ways to bend parts without dropping $8,500 - $10,000 on a bending > brake is the real achivement. > > > TxDave wrote: >> When I started building, a kit was too much for my budget. Scratch >> building was an affordable option. I found out quickly that a bending >> brake was a necessity. Here are the main criteria I considered when I >> designed my brake: >> >> 1. inexpensive >> 2. no welding required >> 3. worked better than the wooden brakes I found on the Internet >> >> I think I succeeded in meeting these goals. Yeah, it doesn't work like a >> commercial brake. But, with a little creative thinking you can bend >> pretty much anything needed to build a Zenith design. >> >> Hundreds of people from all over the world have built a "Dave's Brake". I >> have shared the plans and taken the time to e-mail advice free of charge >> for a couple of years now. To me, it is reward enough just knowing that >> maybe I've helped other builders in pursuit of their dream. >> >> I'm not an engineer...I'm a nurse. While I appreciate any ideas that >> might improve on the design, I do get tired of reading the >> nonconstructive criticism of posters on this list who have never even >> used my brake. If someone comes up with a better brake that meets the >> same criteria, I'll trash my brake and build yours. >> >> Dave Clay >> Temple, TX > > > -------- > Andy Shontz > > do not archive > > CH601XL - Corvair > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182650#182650 > > > -- > Checked by AVG. > 12/05/2008 6:14 PM > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:58:36 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol From: "ashontz" I think he's using 93. Gig, do you have any good info on this ethanol stuff. I'm actually quite interested in the whole deal. I've seen first hand problems with my boat and I sure as hell wouldn't want to see a similar problem with my plane. The engines just bog down and produce about 25% power at best. Gig Giacona wrote: > Not looking at the STC you buddy has for his Beech I can't be 100% sure but if it calls for say 87 octane and he is removing the Ethanol out of the 87 Octane he isn't flying with 87 octane fuel and is in violation of the STC. > > Now he may be pulling the Ethanol out of a higher grade gas and his STC is calling for a lower grade and that MIGHT make him OK but he might have to prove what the octane is on the gas some day. -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182795#182795 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:47:06 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Bending- again... From: "Jugle" After looking closely at my Dave's brake last night and removing the hinge pin, I discovered what is happening is that the rivets aren't pulling at all. The the hinge rolls are bending and coming away from the angle iron base plate. See photo. The hinge is fine on the bending plate, as the stress is horizontal across the hinge leaf when the plate is rotated up to the bending position, thereby transferring the forces laterally across the rivets. I'm going to straighten it, then tack weld the hinge at each of the rolls. Then I will bend no heavier than .025 with it. The rest I will farm out or buy the bits from Zenair. BTW Andy, I'm interested in your extended Zenair brake in case this doesn't work, but I can't find the plans... can you direct me? Glenn -------- Glenn Andressen 601XL- just started. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182802#182802 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1040284_144.jpg ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:08 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? From: "leinad" Ben, A wise man once said "those who live in a wooden house had best not throw flames. :)" I stick by my contention that you have to add 1 G for steady state not withstanding how G meters are calibrated. Of course if you are in orbit I take it back, certain hyperbolic flight paths can also result in zero G. In level flight the weight of the aircraft (1G) is pulling down, and this is balanced by lift. So while the ground holds the airplane up on the ground, the wings have to do it in flight. Another thing I disagree about is the idea that he didn't see those extremes because he still had 70 MPH of speed left. The thing that matters is the change in speed in the direction he was going. In fact the calculated acceleration would have a higher magnitude if he exited the maneuver in the opposite direction he started it. Another way to think about it is that a change in direction IS a change in velocity. So I've been sloppy when using the word "speed" instead of velocity. I'm no scientist so I hope everyone is smart enough to take what I say with a grain of salt. Off to Monday night chat! Dan [quote="n801bh(at)netzero.com"]Hi Leinad, First let me get this out, my guess is just that, A guess based on my past experiences while doing different flight maneuvers. You could be as correct as me but here is my reasoning... While is steady state flight like making a low pass before the pull up the G meter will read 0 G's. Not 1 like you propose. Any change in direction will influence the G meter either up or down or sideways. Your numbers of terminal velocity are probably real close and it is the only way to even get a realistic wild ass guess. If I were to amend my first guess I wouls add a G to the pull up at the far end because upon further viewing of the video it really looks like a pretty hard yank and bank. It is so far away that nobody will probably closely guess the true G force on that one. The second one in front of the camera is a very smooth pull up and bank. In my mind he didn't change course 90 degrees in either axis so your figures of deceleration is skewed, also his "speed almost gone" concept is probably in error because to me he flew off at what looks like 70+ mph. Now if he really did a sharp pull up to a hammerhead stall in 2.5 seconds your numbers would be realistic. This is just my take and I could be entirely out to lunch... I am putting my Flame suit on for this one too ...... do not archive.. Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "leinad" wrote: Ben, I'd like to know how you estimated the G forces. If I do some simple calculations, based on a guess of how fast the plane was going I get a much higher answer than your estimated 1.8 max during the second pull up. The plane looks to be going about 200 feet per second.. or 137 mph, as the pilot traded altitude for speed and the plane is capable of that speed in normal cruise. (This is where I could be completely wrong) He arrested all of that speed in the direction of the pass in 2 and half seconds. That gives an average acceleration of -80 feet/sec/sec during the 2.5 seconds the velocity was bled off. Dividing by 32 gives us 2.5 Gs if the deceleration were uniformly distributed through out the pull up, but much more likely there were almost no Gs at the end since the speed was almost gone, so the distribution of the force due to the pull up probably peeked near 5 G at the bottom, so that the average could still be 2.5. You also have to add 1 G for the steady state level flight, as that is what the wings are normally holding up. So there may have been a peek G at around 6 at the bottom of the final pull up. And that only if the pilot put in perfectly smooth gradual input, and the! re were zero turbulence. What struck me when I saw the video the first time was here was a very experienced agricultural pilot flying his 601XL like it were a crop duster. [quote="n801bh(at)netzero.com"]The pull up at the far end of the field is kinda hard to really see but I will guess 2.2- 2.5 G's. The last pass right in front of the camera is maybe 1.5 -1.8 at best and flown real smooth. Remember one can make some impressive manauvers and if kept smooth in control imputs it hardly reaches more then 1.5 G's.. Well within range of a +6, -3 airframe.. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "Sabrina" wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlpLeVvep7k&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X8GcFqTpYM Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.ph================================================================================================bsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - _____________________________________________________________ Need name badges? Click here to find great name badge solutions! (http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2222/fc/Ioyw6i4vAKsv2AxcVF37YrEEuv5ismLp6237mNgGdgXeixI9iBDaMC/?count=1234567890) > [b] > > -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182502#182502 _____________________________________________________________ Internet Security Software - Click here. (http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2222/fc/Ioyw6i4s9vBkBN4Ba1PEtXql4Ym2WYNa77dA08PF1y82P78m4mAYIa/?count=1234567890) > [b] -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182805#182805 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:30:51 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) From: "Dave Nixon" I went with the hingeless ailerons as recommended from the factory (vis a vis they came in the kit like that) and then I took it a step further and used push tubes to control ailerons. No cables. didn't want to mess with all of the fairing material and placement. After 20 hours, N107R is like a tank. I will say that I had an interesting moment landing with the right tank empty and left full in a little crosswind. this happened when I was preparing to fuel up an empty tank for the Dynon. Who ever said that the hingeless ailerons are stiffer is correct. While doing racetracks over the airport to burn off fuel (so I could calibrate the empty fuel tank to the Dynon) aileron pressure needed to turn was impressive. so I took to turning with the rudder. Much easier. I cannot imagine how they could possible flutter with the push rods though. N107R is a very great ride! 19 hours left on Phase I testing. Dave Nixon Ch601XL N107R Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182813#182813 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:04:41 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) From: "ashontz" I'd be interested in seeing some pics of the pushtube setup for the ailerons. Thanks Dave Nixon wrote: > I went with the hingeless ailerons as recommended from the factory (vis a vis they came in the kit like that) and then I took it a step further and used push tubes to control ailerons. No cables. didn't want to mess with all of the fairing material and placement. After 20 hours, N107R is like a tank. I will say that I had an interesting moment landing with the right tank empty and left full in a little crosswind. this happened when I was preparing to fuel up an empty tank for the Dynon. Who ever said that the hingeless ailerons are stiffer is correct. While doing racetracks over the airport to burn off fuel (so I could calibrate the empty fuel tank to the Dynon) aileron pressure needed to turn was impressive. so I took to turning with the rudder. Much easier. I cannot imagine how they could possible flutter with the push rods though. N107R is a very great ride! > 19 hours left on Phase I testing. > Dave Nixon Ch601XL N107R -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182816#182816 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:49 PM PST US From: "Dan Forney" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? Does the HD or HDS meet the "light sport" requirements for stall speeds, and other specification requirements? ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:25 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: NC and VA Fly-ins. Anyone going? From: "leinad" I'm not a HD or HDS driver, but I'll likely be driving to the Virginia Fly In in Suffolk in my Miata. Dan Dempsey 601XL/Corvair plans builder [quote="airvair601(at)yahoo.com"]Any of you HD/HDS drivers going to be at either the NC event next week or the VA event in June? Mid Atlantic Fly-in http://www.mafsac.com/ (http://www.mafsac.com/) May 16,17,18, Or Virgina Regional Festival of Flight http://www.VirginiaFlyIn.org (http://www.virginiaflyin.org/) Saturday - Sunday, June 14-15, Be a better friend, newshound, and > [b] -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182830#182830 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:50:50 PM PST US From: Jeyoung65@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? YES, to all. Jerry of GA In a message dated 5/12/2008 9:20:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dforney@bctonline.com writes: Does the HD or HDS meet the =9Clight sport=9D requirements for stall speeds, and other specification requirements? **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:28 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? Not true. please refer to the Zenith specs. HD is the original Light sprt, originally an upgraded 600. HDS is not LSA. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Jeyoung65@aol.com >Sent: May 12, 2008 9:48 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? > >YES, to all. Jerry of GA > > >In a message dated 5/12/2008 9:20:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >dforney@bctonline.com writes: > > >Does the HD or HDS meet the light sport requirements for stall speeds, >and other specification requirements? > > >**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family >favorites at AOL Food. >(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:47 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol Andy, the reason your boat may have issues on ethanol is your tanks may be glass or plastic, and your hoses may not be ethanol tolerant. Many boats are having to have their tanks replaced due to this. Dude, your boat sounds like it needs some major ayuda! 25% power, ouch! Your plane (depending on engine compession) can take ethanol depending on hoses and plastics in carburator. Set up the plane to burn ethanol correctly and you should not have issues. On the 3300 Jabiru, I have NASCAR race lines that can take ethanol, and the carbi is set for some ethonal tollerance. depends on the compression of the engine as well. The EGTs may burn hotter so you may need to burn the engine at cruise richer. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: ashontz >Sent: May 12, 2008 6:56 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol > > >I think he's using 93. > >Gig, do you have any good info on this ethanol stuff. I'm actually quite interested in the whole deal. I've seen first hand problems with my boat and I sure as hell wouldn't want to see a similar problem with my plane. The engines just bog down and produce about 25% power at best. > > >Gig Giacona wrote: >> Not looking at the STC you buddy has for his Beech I can't be 100% sure but if it calls for say 87 octane and he is removing the Ethanol out of the 87 Octane he isn't flying with 87 octane fuel and is in violation of the STC. >> >> Now he may be pulling the Ethanol out of a higher grade gas and his STC is calling for a lower grade and that MIGHT make him OK but he might have to prove what the octane is on the gas some day. > > >-------- >Andy Shontz > >do not archive > >CH601XL - Corvair >www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182795#182795 > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:58 PM PST US From: MaxNr@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? Guessing how many Gs another plane pulls is like reading tea leaves. Good luck. This was an Ag pilot. The so called "crop duster" turn is less G than you think. Ag pilots don't like to pull Gs for two reasons: Eight hours of high G is tiring and its foolish to do high G close to the ground with a heavy load. The loop is real slow over the top in a plane with wing loading less than 10 lbs per sq foot. (1320 lbs at t.o. with 132 sq ft) The big problem with looping a 100 HP plane is falling out of the top with inadequate airspeed. Low stress. Even more embarrassing is not even making it to the top and then back sliding. Stresses the control surfaces, could even "blow your flaps down," but otherwise low stress. If you are teaching a former military pilot, expect this because they always over estimate that puny 100 HP and try to make really big diameter loops. Barrel rolls are low stress and are started like Chandelles and lazy eights. (Commercial maneuvers done in spam cans) Do a YouTube search for "Bob Hoover," turn up your volume and listen to his story about rolling a SabreLiner with a load of Generals. While he is talking, he is pouring iced tea into a tumbler on the glare shield. He is doing a barrel roll with his other hand. Like the prototype BO-707 did. Install a G meter or accelerometer. A cheap fish scale will do in a pinch. Get someone to show you how to do this stuff if you are going to do it. Start with a level 60 degree banked turn. Experience two Gs. Light a candle, don't curse the darkness. Remember, a 601 ain't a Pitts. Bob Do not archive ************** Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:34 PM PST US From: MaxNr@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re: How many Gs are these maneuvers? Another thing about steady state Gs. It is not zero but rather its one. I am looking at the Accelerometer, AKA G meter sitting above my fireplace. Its reading one as we speak. Bob Do not archive ************** Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:25 PM PST US From: Leo Gates Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? My HDS meets LSA. FAA says each experimental aircraft is unique. -- Leo Gates N601Z - CH601HDS TDO Rotax 912UL Juan Vega wrote: > > Not true. please refer to the Zenith specs. HD is the original Light sprt, originally an upgraded 600. HDS is not LSA. > > Juan > > -----Original Message----- > >> From: Jeyoung65@aol.com >> Sent: May 12, 2008 9:48 PM >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? >> >> YES, to all. Jerry of GA >> >> >> In a message dated 5/12/2008 9:20:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >> dforney@bctonline.com writes: >> >> >> Does the HD or HDS meet the light sport requirements for stall speeds, >> and other specification requirements? >> >> ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:32 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) From: "Ron Lendon" I have flown Piper Cherokees that have optional gap seals installed over the hinges to reduce drag or air flow through the wing. With the hingeless design the gap seals are already there. I think the hingeless aileron is a very elegant design. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182854#182854 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:38 PM PST US From: Stanley Challgren Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? Juan: You are wrong. My HDS easily met the Light Sport criteria. Stan Challgren On May 12, 2008, at 8:03 PM, Juan Vega wrote: > > > Not true. please refer to the Zenith specs. HD is the original Light > sprt, originally an upgraded 600. HDS is not LSA. > > Juan > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Jeyoung65@aol.com >> Sent: May 12, 2008 9:48 PM >> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going >> with a HD instead? >> >> YES, to all. Jerry of GA >> >> >> In a message dated 5/12/2008 9:20:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >> dforney@bctonline.com writes: >> >> >> Does the HD or HDS meet the =93light sport=94 requirements for stall >> speeds, >> and other specification requirements? >> > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:40 PM PST US From: LHusky@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: O-290 install Has anyone ever installed an O-290. I have one available for a great price, but just do not know if it is possible. My XL fuselage is nearing completion and I need to really get started on FWF. Larry Husky Madras, Oregon **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.