---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 05/13/08: 32 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:30 AM - Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol (ashontz) 2. 04:37 AM - Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) (ashontz) 3. 04:44 AM - Zenith CH701 Rated CFI (Ken Arnold) 4. 05:11 AM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (ALAN BEYER) 5. 05:24 AM - Re: Zenith601-List: Engine mount bolts (P.H. Raker) 6. 05:39 AM - Re: Re: Zenith601-List: Engine mount bolts (Juan Vega) 7. 05:42 AM - Re: Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol (Juan Vega) 8. 05:45 AM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (Juan Vega) 9. 06:14 AM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (Jim Weston) 10. 06:48 AM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (Jaybannist@cs.com) 11. 07:22 AM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (LarryMcFarland) 12. 08:59 AM - Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol (Gig Giacona) 13. 09:09 AM - Re: Zenith CH701 Rated CFI (Gig Giacona) 14. 10:04 AM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (Jeff Davidson) 15. 10:24 AM - Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) (MaxNr@aol.com) 16. 11:19 AM - abandon project (michael lord) 17. 01:04 PM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (Jaybannist@cs.com) 18. 01:49 PM - Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) (Andrewlieser) 19. 02:11 PM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead (Gig Giacona) 20. 02:12 PM - Re: abandon project (haven) 21. 02:14 PM - Re: Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) (bryanmmartin@comcast.net) 22. 03:05 PM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (Jeff Davidson) 23. 03:41 PM - Re: Meeting LSA Criteria (Jaybannist@cs.com) 24. 05:08 PM - Re: Meeting LSA Criteria (Jeff) 25. 05:42 PM - Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? (Timothy Croy) 26. 06:08 PM - Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) (ashontz) 27. 06:14 PM - Re: O-290 install (Ron Lendon) 28. 06:22 PM - Re: Re: O-290 install (LHusky@aol.com) 29. 06:28 PM - Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) (Ron Lendon) 30. 07:04 PM - Re: Meeting LSA Criteria (Jaybannist@cs.com) 31. 08:06 PM - Re: Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) (Bryan Martin) 32. 10:35 PM - Re: Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) (Aerolitellc@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:30:54 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol From: "ashontz" 25% power when it's acting up, then back to 100%, then 25% power intermittantly, It's only done it once or twice last summer for about 5 minutes of a trip out, then ran fine the rest of the time. But I wouldn't want to have that 5 minute experince in the air. Actually the tanks are aluminum. I think I even have new hoses too. Hadn't thought of the compression. Now that I think about it, the 140 Evinrude I have is kind of a notorious engine in that it's the same block as the 115hp, it just uses higher compression to make power. The next step up is a 150hp and that's 6 cylinders. The 140s should probably have been designed as 6 cylinder engines, not 4. It's just asking too much of an engine. And my little truck has compression something like 10.5 or 11:1, which is also pretty high. A normal compression check on my Nissan pickup is something like 140psi. It's 23 years old with close to 300,000 miles, and yet I still have that 140psi compression on all the cylinders believe it or not. amyvega2005(at)earthlink. wrote: > Andy, > the reason your boat may have issues on ethanol is your tanks may be glass or plastic, and your hoses may not be ethanol tolerant. Many boats are having to have their tanks replaced due to this. Dude, your boat sounds like it needs some major ayuda! 25% power, ouch! > > Your plane (depending on engine compession) can take ethanol depending on hoses and plastics in carburator. Set up the plane to burn ethanol correctly and you should not have issues. On the 3300 Jabiru, I have NASCAR race lines that can take ethanol, and the carbi is set for some ethonal tollerance. depends on the compression of the engine as well. The EGTs may burn hotter so you may need to burn the engine at cruise richer. > > Juan > > -- -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182879#182879 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:55 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) From: "ashontz" Interesting, I was wondering about using the hinged aileron with a .016 skin sandwiched in there to act as some stiffness, but thought maybe that might pull on the rivets too much. You figure with a gap seal on top, when you deflect the aileron downwards the gap seal skin has to travel around a larger radius (ever so slightly anyway) to make the bend. Would that be enough to elongate the rivet holes or weaken the rivet heads over time? Ron Lendon wrote: > I have flown Piper Cherokees that have optional gap seals installed over the hinges to reduce drag or air flow through the wing. With the hingeless design the gap seals are already there. I think the hingeless aileron is a very elegant design. -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182882#182882 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:44:42 AM PST US From: "Ken Arnold" Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith CH701 Rated CFI Hi, Looking for 701 rated CFI to provide check ride near Goldsboro, NC. Many thanks, Ken Arnold 919 734-8573 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:10 AM PST US From: ALAN BEYER Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? Juan,=0AMy HDS with 350 Hrs. also meets the LSA specs.=0AAL from Oshkosh=0A =0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Stanley Challgren =0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, May 12, 2008 10:56:54 PM=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead?=0A=0AJuan:=0A=0AYou are wrong. -My HDS easily met the Light Sport criteria.=0A=0AStan Challgren=0A=0A=0A=0AOn May 12, 2008, at 8:03 PM ga2005@earthlink.net>=0A=0ANot true. please refer to the Zenith specs. HD i s the original Light sprt, originally an upgraded 600. -HDS is not LSA. =0A=0AJuan=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0A=0AFrom: Jeyoung65@aol.com=0A =0ASent: May 12, 2008 9:48 PM=0A=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0A=0ASubje ct: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD inste ad?=0A=0A=0AYES, to all. Jerry of GA=0A=0A=0A=0AIn a message dated 5/12/200 8 9:20:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, -=0A=0Adforney@bctonline.com writes :=0A=0A=0A=0ADoes the HD or HDS meet the =93light -sport=94 requirements for stall speeds, =0A=0Aand other specification -requirements? -=0A=0A ========= ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:02 AM PST US From: "P.H. Raker" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith601-List: Engine mount bolts "Ianrat" wrote: > > Just about to fit the engine mount to the fire wall. What > type of bolts are being used (AN or Grade 8 ). > And are they using Castle nuts or Nylon lock nuts. Hello, Ianrat, and other listers, I must agree in part with what Mac already wrote you. Use the AN bolts. Grade 8 are slightly stronger/harder, but are also a bit more brittle. You don't want brittle on something that's potentially so safety critical as engine mounts. I must disagree with something else Mac wrote. Castle nuts are good. Self locking nuts are not necessarily bad. Nylock type nuts SHOULD NOT BE USED on an engine mount. Here's the reasoning: Under normal operating conditions, some engines don't produce sufficient heat to present a problem. However, forward of the firewall is the most likely place on an aircraft to have a fire. If you ever have an in-flight fire (God forbid), you don't want your engine to fall off the plane because you used Nylock nuts on the mounts and the nylon melted. If you choose to use self-locking nuts on your engine mounts, please USE ALL-METAL ones. Assuming that heat isn't an issue under normal operating conditions, Nylock nuts are great in almost all other applications. Phil Raker N556P HDS/Stratus ~85% completed (using all-metal self-locking nuts on my engine mounts) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:49 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith601-List: Engine mount bolts do not use Nylock, it will melt. never use Nylock in the engine compartment. use either castle nuts, or steel Lock nuts. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: "P.H. Raker" >Sent: May 13, 2008 8:20 AM >To: Zenith601-List@matronics.com, Zenith-List >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith601-List: Engine mount bolts > > > > "Ianrat" wrote: >> >> Just about to fit the engine mount to the fire wall. What >> type of bolts are being used (AN or Grade 8 ). >> And are they using Castle nuts or Nylon lock nuts. > >Hello, Ianrat, and other listers, > I must agree in part with what Mac already wrote you. Use the AN >bolts. Grade 8 are slightly stronger/harder, but are also a bit more >brittle. You don't want brittle on something that's potentially so >safety critical as engine mounts. > I must disagree with something else Mac wrote. Castle nuts are >good. Self locking nuts are not necessarily bad. Nylock type nuts >SHOULD NOT BE USED on an engine mount. Here's the reasoning: Under >normal operating conditions, some engines don't produce sufficient heat >to present a problem. However, forward of the firewall is the most >likely place on an aircraft to have a fire. If you ever have an >in-flight fire (God forbid), you don't want your engine to fall off the >plane because you used Nylock nuts on the mounts and the nylon melted. >If you choose to use self-locking nuts on your engine mounts, please >USE ALL-METAL ones. > Assuming that heat isn't an issue under normal operating >conditions, Nylock nuts are great in almost all other applications. > >Phil Raker N556P HDS/Stratus ~85% completed > (using all-metal self-locking nuts on my engine mounts) > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:18 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol nice. my volvo has 300,000 miles and still kickin. JUan -----Original Message----- >From: ashontz >Sent: May 13, 2008 7:27 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol > > >25% power when it's acting up, then back to 100%, then 25% power intermittantly, It's only done it once or twice last summer for about 5 minutes of a trip out, then ran fine the rest of the time. But I wouldn't want to have that 5 minute experince in the air. > >Actually the tanks are aluminum. I think I even have new hoses too. > >Hadn't thought of the compression. Now that I think about it, the 140 Evinrude I have is kind of a notorious engine in that it's the same block as the 115hp, it just uses higher compression to make power. The next step up is a 150hp and that's 6 cylinders. The 140s should probably have been designed as 6 cylinder engines, not 4. It's just asking too much of an engine. And my little truck has compression something like 10.5 or 11:1, which is also pretty high. A normal compression check on my Nissan pickup is something like 140psi. It's 23 years old with close to 300,000 miles, and yet I still have that 140psi compression on all the cylinders believe it or not. > > >amyvega2005(at)earthlink. wrote: >> Andy, >> the reason your boat may have issues on ethanol is your tanks may be glass or plastic, and your hoses may not be ethanol tolerant. Many boats are having to have their tanks replaced due to this. Dude, your boat sounds like it needs some major ayuda! 25% power, ouch! >> >> Your plane (depending on engine compession) can take ethanol depending on hoses and plastics in carburator. Set up the plane to burn ethanol correctly and you should not have issues. On the 3300 Jabiru, I have NASCAR race lines that can take ethanol, and the carbi is set for some ethonal tollerance. depends on the compression of the engine as well. The EGTs may burn hotter so you may need to burn the engine at cruise richer. >> >> Juan >> >> -- > > >-------- >Andy Shontz > >do not archive > >CH601XL - Corvair >www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182879#182879 > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:18 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? sounds like I owe a bunch o beers! Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Leo Gates >Sent: May 12, 2008 11:26 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? > > >My HDS meets LSA. FAA says each experimental aircraft is unique. > >-- >Leo Gates >N601Z - CH601HDS TDO >Rotax 912UL > > >Juan Vega wrote: >> >> Not true. please refer to the Zenith specs. HD is the original Light sprt, originally an upgraded 600. HDS is not LSA. >> >> Juan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: Jeyoung65@aol.com >>> Sent: May 12, 2008 9:48 PM >>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? >>> >>> YES, to all. Jerry of GA >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 5/12/2008 9:20:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >>> dforney@bctonline.com writes: >>> >>> >>> Does the HD or HDS meet the light sport requirements for stall speeds, >>> and other specification requirements? >>> >>> > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:14:42 AM PST US From: "Jim Weston" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? Hi folks. I haven't been on here in a while. I completed my HDS in 1998, and I've also been checking about the LSA category. If you check the EAA website, they have a list of aircraft kits that meet the LSA requirements. Under the Zenair/Zenith brand they list the STOL CH 701, Zodiac CH 601, Super Zodiac, and CH 601XL. The CH601HDS is the only model that is called the Super Zodiac, so the HDS is on the list. Here's the EAA webpage: http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/lsa/likely_lsa.html Bottom line, since there is a difference in final completion weights and overall performance, as Leo mentioned, it is a unique situation for each aircraft. Mine makes it within parameters. Jim Weston N601JW CH601HDS w/Stratus Concord, Ga. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Juan Vega Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 8:41 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? sounds like I owe a bunch o beers! Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Leo Gates >Sent: May 12, 2008 11:26 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? > > >My HDS meets LSA. FAA says each experimental aircraft is unique. > >-- >Leo Gates >N601Z - CH601HDS TDO >Rotax 912UL > > >Juan Vega wrote: >> >> Not true. please refer to the Zenith specs. HD is the original Light sprt, originally an upgraded 600. HDS is not LSA. >> >> Juan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: Jeyoung65@aol.com >>> Sent: May 12, 2008 9:48 PM >>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? >>> >>> YES, to all. Jerry of GA >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 5/12/2008 9:20:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >>> dforney@bctonline.com writes: >>> >>> >>> Does the HD or HDS meet the light sport requirements for stall speeds, >>> and other specification requirements? >>> >>> > > Checked by AVG. 7:31 AM Checked by AVG. 7:31 AM ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:18 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? Several years ago, there was an extremely active poster named Frank Hinde who completed an HDS. When he went to sell it, he found that it wouldn't meet the stall speed requirement for LSA. As I recall, he did some "tweaking" and got the stall speed within requirements. What I don't remember is what he did to reduce it. That might still be in the archives. So, it seems that the HDS is right on the cusp and individual examples may or may not qualify as LSA. Jay in Dallas ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:29 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? Hi Dan, You'll read both sides of the matter here, but the HD certainly does and the HDS can meet those standards depending on if it was made to qualify within the stall speeds. Some HDSs won't, but some will. I have had no problem meeting that LSA stall speed and it's documented in my operations manual. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Dan Forney wrote: > > Does the HD or HDS meet the light sport requirements for stall > speeds, and other specification requirements? > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:45 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol From: "Gig Giacona" Just Google Ethanol. Most of the results will be either how it will save the world or starve it but hidden in there is some good information. Then search around the AOPA and EAA sites there is some very good info there. As far as your buddy's Beech goes if his STC calls for 93 Octane that isn't what he is running if he takes out the Ethanol. I don't know how much the Ethanol boosts the octane so he might not even be running 87. As for your boat. Sounds like big slugs of water laced Ethanol or hose goo to me. I had always intended to run 93 octane MoGas in my Corvair powered 601XL. I can still get it and since I know some guys at the refinery I may even be able to contintue to get it for a while at least. But if the time comes that I can't I will be running 100LL. It will be tested with both during the 40 hour fly off. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182937#182937 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:53 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith CH701 Rated CFI From: "Gig Giacona" There is no such thing as a 701 rated CFI. What you want is a CFI with experience in a 701. The only problem you might find is that CFIs who don't want to instruct in a EXP-HB. The exception to this would be some of the LSA instructors that can only instruct in certain aircraft but they are few and far between. You don't mention if this is your plane and you are buying from a builder or just want to fly in a 701. It might help to come up with some possible solutions if we know your situation. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182940#182940 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:32 AM PST US From: Jeff Davidson Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? Jay, I'm hoping that you are inaccurate on this. Tweaking the stall speed to meet the LSA stall speeds after the plane is flying may in itself violate the LSA criteria. Jeff D > >Several years ago, there was an extremely active poster named Frank Hinde who completed an HDS. When he went to sell it, he found that it wouldn't meet the stall speed requirement for LSA. As I recall, he did some "tweaking" and got the stall speed within requirements. What I don't remember is what he did to reduce it. That might still be in the archives. So, it seems that the HDS is right on the cusp and individual examples may or may not qualify as LSA. > >Jay in Dallas > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:23 AM PST US From: MaxNr@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) Dave Nixon, you went with push rods. That is so neat! Couple of days ago, I was rooting through some old drawings to send some info to Andy. That old design had push rods and they seemed to jump out to me. I could see how a single rod would fit in either the last or next to last lightening holes. They are not temp sensitive or lose tension. Bob Dingley Do not archive ************** Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:15 AM PST US From: "michael lord" Subject: Zenith-List: abandon project Hi Folks, Just joined list. I have Been building factory 601 XL kit for the past 21/2 years (90 % complete.) Engine is hung, wireing to be completed. I have for sale the 90% complete factory kit with firewall forward kit. 50% discount. New Jabiru 3300 engine, Dynon 180 ,TruTrak ADI 11 autopilot, Garmin 396 GPS, Custom leather seats, PM 3000 intercom, etc, etc, etc, etc, everything needed for a first class project. every thing is new 15% discount Located in suburb of Green Bay Wi If interested contact Mike Lord off list for complete info and pictures mlord001@new.rr.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:04:57 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? Jeff, How would you know what your airplane's stalling speed is without flying it? And if it is too high, are you just stuck with it? I think not. That is some of what the 40 hour testing period is about. I think what you are referring to is (usually older) airplanes that originally met the LSA criteria (like a lot of Aircoupes), but some time in their life, they were modified to be faster, or heavier, or whatever that put them out of the LSA category. They can't be returned to the original configuration to qualify as LSA. Jay in Dallas Jeff Davidson wrote: > > >Jay, > I'm hoping that you are inaccurate on this. Tweaking the stall speed to meet the LSA stall speeds after the plane is flying may in itself violate the LSA criteria. > Jeff D >> >>Several years ago, there was an extremely active poster named Frank Hinde who completed an HDS. When he went to sell it, he found that it wouldn't meet the stall speed requirement for LSA. As I recall, he did some "tweaking" and got the stall speed within requirements. What I don't remember is what he did to reduce it. That might still be in the archives. So, it seems that the HDS is right on the cusp and individual examples may or may not qualify as LSA. >> >>Jay in Dallas >> > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:32 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) From: "Andrewlieser" Dave, do you have any pictures of the push rod design? That sounds very intriguing! -------- Andrew Lieser S/N 6-7045 http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183005#183005 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:02 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead From: "Gig Giacona" While I agree with that logic Jay, there have been some DAR and or FSDO that have taken the other view in some cases. I remember reading about them back when the LSA rules were first put in place. Probably on R.A.H. The thinking was as you said based on the Ercoupe C modifications that made it a D. (I think those were the model numbers it may have been B to C.) If the builder had finished the phase I testing and documented numbers that didn't make LSA rules the plane was forever NOT LSA. If memory serves it was cases where the plane was built and flew off the hours before the LSA numbers were known or in some cases even considered. They might have a fast stall speed or been granted AW certs with 1400 lbs MGW. The builder couldn't go back and change those numbers to make LSA. Yet he could build a plane that was identical and report the correct numbers and it was an LSA. Remember we are talking about a government agency here. Logic isn't required. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183009#183009 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:12:10 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: abandon project From: "haven" whats the price? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183011#183011 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:06 PM PST US From: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) If you had a piece of aluminum riveted over the hinge, you would probably find it difficult to move the ailerons at all. You would definitely put a permanent crease in the metal and stretch it or shear the rivets if you did manage to get it to move. When the standard hingeless ailerons are deflected, the skin acting as the hinge takes on a fairly large (on the order of a few inches) radius of curvature. Bending a piece of metal over a piano hinge will put a very small (>1/4") radius in the metal and result in a significant elongation. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "ashontz" > > Interesting, I was wondering about using the hinged aileron with a .016 skin > sandwiched in there to act as some stiffness, but thought maybe that might pull > on the rivets too much. You figure with a gap seal on top, when you deflect the > aileron downwards the gap seal skin has to travel around a larger radius (ever > so slightly anyway) to make the bend. Would that be enough to elongate the rivet > holes or weaken the rivet heads over time? > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:05:22 PM PST US From: Jeff Davidson Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? Jay wrote:How would you know what your airplane's stalling speed is without flying it? This is how National EAA explains it: Question : I have a homebuilt airplane that meets all of the criteria for Sport Pilot except that it is a few miles an hour too fast. I would like to change the prop to a slower speed that does match Light Sport so that I can then someday fly it as a Sport Pilot. Is this possible? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Answer : No, you cannot make an existing aircraft that does not meet the definition of a light-sport aircraft (ref. 14 CFR 1.1) eligibile for operation by sport pilots regardless of how you modify the aircraft. The LSA definition requires that the aircraft be both initially certificated AND continuously operated within the definition in order to be eligible for operation by sport pilots. The aircraft you describe was neither initially certificated nor continuously operated within the LSA definition, so it cannot be made eligible for operation by sport pilots. Jeff ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:08 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Meeting LSA Criteria What is missing in the question is whether the airplane was past the 40-hour test period or not. If it is past the test period, then I agree: It can't then be changed to meet the criteria. However, it is totally unreasonable to expect an amateur builder to be able to set a ground-adjustable prop (or choose a fixed pitch prop) that will, without a doubt, make the airplane fly below 138mph. As Gig has pointed out, reasonableness is not a characteristic of the Feds; but I really don't believe they intended to create a Catch 22. Then again, how are they going to know (or even care) what you have adjusted during the testing period? You might adjust the carb, the stabilizer attitude, tire pressure, or the prop pitch to get them right. What's the difference? Jay in Dallas Jeff Davidson wrote: > >Jay wrote:How would you know what your airplane's stalling speed is without flying it? > >This is how National EAA explains it: > >Question : >I have a homebuilt airplane that meets all of the criteria for Sport Pilot except that it is a few miles an hour too fast. I would like to change the prop to a slower speed that does match Light Sport so that I can then someday fly it as a Sport Pilot. Is this possible? > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Answer : >No, you cannot make an existing aircraft that does not meet the definition of a light-sport aircraft (ref. 14 CFR 1.1) eligibile for operation by sport pilots regardless of how you modify the aircraft. The LSA definition requires that the aircraft be both initially certificated AND continuously operated within the definition in order to be eligible for operation by sport pilots. The aircraft you describe was neither initially certificated nor continuously operated within the LSA definition, so it cannot be made eligible for operation by sport pilots. > >Jeff > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:04 PM PST US From: "Jeff " Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Meeting LSA Criteria Jay wrote: What is missing in the question is whether the airplane was past the 40-hour test period or not? Jay, You are right that it may be unclear in the EAA example, but in Frank's case I don't think there is any question that the plane had been flown past Phase I. At the end of Phase I the FAA requires: "All test flights, at a minimum, must be conducted under VFR, day only. Guidance concerning the scope and detail of test flights can be found in AC 90-89. Following satisfactory completion of the required number of flight hours in the flight test area, the pilot must certify in the records that the aircraft has been shown to comply with 91.319(b). Compliance with 91.319(b) must be recorded in the aircraft records with the following, or a similarly worded, statement: I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the flight testing: speeds Vso ______, Vx ______, and Vy ______, and the weight ______ and CG location ______ at which they were obtained." These numbers should meet the LSA criteria at all times if you want a Sport Pilot to be able to fly it. There are further considerations for instrument markings, etc., but here is a question for you: May a Sport Pilot fly off Phase I of an AB Experimental ? Jeff D. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:28 PM PST US From: "Timothy Croy" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? mine meets LSA specs On 5/13/08, Jeff Davidson wrote: > > jeffrey_davidson@earthlink.net> > > Jay wrote:How would you know what your airplane's stalling speed is > without flying it? > > This is how National EAA explains it: > > Question : > I have a homebuilt airplane that meets all of the criteria for Sport Pilot > except that it is a few miles an hour too fast. I would like to change the > prop to a slower speed that does match Light Sport so that I can then > someday fly it as a Sport Pilot. Is this possible? > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Answer : > No, you cannot make an existing aircraft that does not meet the definition > of a light-sport aircraft (ref. 14 CFR 1.1) eligibile for operation by sport > pilots regardless of how you modify the aircraft. The LSA definition > requires that the aircraft be both initially certificated AND continuously > operated within the definition in order to be eligible for operation by > sport pilots. The aircraft you describe was neither initially certificated > nor continuously operated within the LSA definition, so it cannot be made > eligible for operation by sport pilots. > > Jeff > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:35 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) From: "ashontz" I understand that, so how do these gap seals work? bryanmmartin wrote: > If you had a piece of aluminum riveted over the hinge, you would probably find it difficult to move the ailerons at all. You would definitely put a permanent crease in the metal and stretch it or shear the rivets if you did manage to get it to move. > > When the standard hingeless ailerons are deflected, the skin acting as the hinge takes on a fairly large (on the order of a few inches) radius of curvature. Bending a piece of metal over a piano hinge will put a very small (>1/4") radius in the metal and result in a significant elongation. > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: "ashontz" > > > > > > > Interesting, I was wondering about using the hinged aileron with a .016 skin > > sandwiched in there to act as some stiffness, but thought maybe that might pull > > on the rivets too much. You figure with a gap seal on top, when you deflect the > > aileron downwards the gap seal skin has to travel around a larger radius (ever > > so slightly anyway) to make the bend. Would that be enough to elongate the rivet > > holes or weaken the rivet heads over time? > > > > > > > > > -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183028#183028 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:14 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: O-290 install From: "Ron Lendon" Larry, A quick search of the archives turned up that it might be a little to heavy and a little to powerful. Check with Zenith. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183029#183029 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:06 PM PST US From: LHusky@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: O-290 install Thanks Ron. I wanted to originally go with the Corvair engine, but the long wait for parts and no reply to emails, has me looking for other options. I did not want to build an engine and have it sit for a couple of years. Now that I am ready to build the engine, I still get no replies to emails. Guess it is going to be an O-200 or O-235 for sure. Thanks for the reply In a message dated 5/13/2008 6:15:03 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, rlendon@comcast.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" Larry, A quick search of the archives turned up that it might be a little to heavy and a little to powerful. Check with Zenith. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183029#183029 **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:28:44 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) From: "Ron Lendon" Andy, The gaps seals on the Cherokee are some type of plastic. I don't know how they are attached. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183032#183032 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:28 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Meeting LSA Criteria Jeff, A Sport Pilot can only fly an LSA, but the 601XL, registered E-AB, also qualifies as an LSA. Therefore, a Sport Pilot can fly Phase I in an XL. Jay in Dallas "Jeff " wrote: > >There are further considerations for instrument markings, etc., but here is >a question for you: May a Sport Pilot fly off Phase I of an AB Experimental >? > >Jeff D. > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:19 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) The gap seals are strips of plastic attached to the wing ahead of the hinge on the bottom of the wing. They span the gap formed by the hinge line. The higher pressure on the bottom of the wing holds the strip against the surface to smooth the airflow and prevent leakage through the gap. The trailing edge of the strip is free to slide over the aileron as it moves. See: http://www.knots2u.com/cessna-gs.htm for example. On May 13, 2008, at 9:05 PM, ashontz wrote: > > I understand that, so how do these gap seals work? > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:58 PM PST US From: Aerolitellc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Hinged VS Hingless ailerons (flutter & accidents) A wing should be a smooth lifting surface, with no leakage between the high-pressure bottom side and the low pressure upper side. A Piper's wing is neither smooth nor free from leaks. Stopping the leakage of air across the wing is easy. All you have to do is put gap seals between the wing and the flaps and between the wing and the ailerons. This is simpl e and highly cost effective. Sealing these gaps will gain you approximately f ive to six M.P.H. in cruise speed and fifty feet per minute in rate of climb. You get an added bonus of lower stall speed and much greater aileron effectiveness. Tests show they deliver several miles per hour more performance than the AMR&D ones. The Laminar Flow Systems aileron gap seals performance is the same as the LoPresti and K2U ones but the price is lower and they have less te ndency to ice up! (http://www.laminarflowsystems.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Stor e_Code=LFSI&Category_Code=AGS) **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. 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