Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:05 AM - Re: XL (Edward Moody II)
2. 06:45 AM - Re: Check Ride !!! (pavel569)
3. 07:03 AM - CENSORSHIP ()
4. 07:58 AM - Re: Re: Check Ride !!! (wade jones)
5. 08:16 AM - Re: Re: Check Ride !!! (LHusky@aol.com)
6. 09:01 AM - Re: CENSORSHIP (kmccune)
7. 09:31 AM - Re: Check Ride !!! (Bill Naumuk)
8. 09:42 AM - Re: CENSORSHIP (Terry Phillips)
9. 10:50 AM - Re: CENSORSHIP (Larry Hursh)
10. 11:18 AM - Carpet hold-downs? (Dr. Andrew Elliott)
11. 11:28 AM - Re: Carpet hold-downs? (steve)
12. 11:29 AM - Re: Carpet hold-downs? (Bill Naumuk)
13. 11:59 AM - I have had it with the armchair engineers... (AZFlyer)
14. 11:59 AM - Re: Carpet hold-downs? (george may)
15. 12:12 PM - Re: Carpet hold-downs? (LarryMcFarland)
16. 12:13 PM - Re: CENSORSHIP (Dave G.)
17. 03:02 PM - Re: Carpet hold-downs? (Gig Giacona)
18. 03:06 PM - Cabin Pressure Test (Klaus Truemper)
19. 03:14 PM - Re: CENSORSHIP (Gig Giacona)
20. 03:21 PM - Nose gear weight (Jaybannist@cs.com)
21. 03:25 PM - Re: Re: CENSORSHIP (Juan Vega)
22. 03:26 PM - Re: Carpet hold-downs? (Juan Vega)
23. 03:29 PM - Re: Check Ride !!! (Juan Vega)
24. 03:53 PM - Re: Re: CENSORSHIP (Terry Phillips)
25. 04:03 PM - Re: Re: CENSORSHIP (Terry Phillips)
26. 04:03 PM - Re: Zenith601-List: I have had it with the armchair engineers... (Jeff)
27. 04:18 PM - Re: Re: CENSORSHIP (Juan Vega)
28. 04:18 PM - Re: Re: CENSORSHIP (Juan Vega)
29. 05:02 PM - Re: CENSORSHIP (kmccune)
30. 05:20 PM - ZAC's reputation (was Re: XL down - France) (Richard Todd Perry)
31. 05:23 PM - Can we all agree on this? (please read) (William Dominguez)
32. 05:58 PM - Re: Can we all agree on this? (please read) (Larry Hursh)
33. 06:34 PM - Censorship, split lists, "bad-mouthing competitors", etc. - a non-builder's perspective (David Brooks)
34. 08:04 PM - Re: Censorship, split lists, "bad-mouthing competitors", etc. - a non-builder's perspective (Larry Hursh)
35. 09:53 PM - Re: Cabin Pressure Test (jetboy)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
The importance of a crashed plane being produced from a kit whose parts
were not produced by Zenith is simple, really. Quite a few of us are
invested in planes made from parts manufactured by Zenith in Missouri
and Canada. The materials and methods and workmanship while perhaps less
than perfect, are at least an established consistent quality. The plans
builders control much of their own fates by their adherance to Zenith's
specifications of materials and methods and of course their quality of
workmanship.
For me, building from a kit comprised of parts made by the Missouri and
Canadian facilities, the remaining variable in the quality and safety of
my plane is (A) my own work and (B) how I fly the plane. Regarding a
plane made by some other unknown facility or private plans builder,
there are the enorousmly important added variables of what materials
were used and who made the spars. If we're looking at wing failures, the
integrity of the wing and center spars are a key factor..... not just
the original design, how closely it was followed in construction, and
how it was flown afterward.
Because of that, I am most concerned (regarding my plane) with the
design and integrity of kit parts made in Missouri and spars made in
Canada. Failures involving those elements are germaine to my safety. A
plane made elsewhere and otherwise might as well be a totally different
design in terms of significance to my kit and my future safety.
This does not imply that I don't care abouty other flyers.... it simply
illustrates why many of us feel it is important to know where and how
the plane was made.
Ed
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Check Ride !!! |
CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!
--------
Pavel
CA
Zodiac XL N581PM (Reserved)
Tail, flaps, ailerons done, right wing on the table ....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185605#185605
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
IT IS VERY APPARENT THAT THIS LIST HAS MANY MEMBERS THAT HAVE NO
INTEREST IN BUILDING OR FLYING ZENITH AIRCRAFT. INSTEAD THEY SPEND THERE
TIME TRYING TO TEAR UP ZENITH'S REPUTATION.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. I THINK ALL POSTS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE
BUILDING AND FLYING OF ZENITH AIRCRAFT SHOULD NOT APPEAR ON THIS LIST AT
ALL.
WOULDN'T IT BE NICE IF THIS LIST WOULD AGAIN REFLECT WHAT BUILDERS AND
PILOTS WOULD LIKE TO READ ABOUT. THOSE WHO WANT TO PRETEND TO BE
ACCIDENT INVESTIGATORS COULD FORM A NEW LIST. THEY MIGHT CALL IT THE SKY
IS FALLING LIST.
CHARLES LEONARD
P.S. I AM FLYING MY ZENITH
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Check Ride !!! |
Yes Larry , Congratulations .When I wrote you words of encouragements last
week I did not tell you that I failed my first check ride back in 1961 .I
was impatient and instead of waiting on the FAA I used an unscrupulous
flight examiner .Long story ,there was no reason to fail me other than money
.
Wade Jones South Texas
601XL plans building
Cont. 0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "pavel569" <pm569@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 8:42 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Check Ride !!!
>
> CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> --------
> Pavel
> CA
> Zodiac XL N581PM (Reserved)
> Tail, flaps, ailerons done, right wing on the table ....
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185605#185605
>
>
>
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Check Ride !!! |
There were a couple of times that the turbulence from the building storms
caused me to really blow the altitudes and as I was doing the steep turns, I
actually had to exit the turn and restart. I thought I had blown the check
ride and was a little discouraged. This particular examiner always announces
a
new private pilot on down wind when they come in. Well, I was on the ground
and there was no announcement until I cleared the runway! I had not even
thought that I was performing an engine out landing as my final demonstration.
He told me that the decisions I had made to exit the maneuver for safety, was
the right decision. I could not have asked for a more horrible day, but it
worked out. Thank you for the encouragement. It meant a lot to me for all
of your input and now I can share my experience with the 6 other students
there. One thing that I found very interesting, was the fact that there were
several things that the examiner did not like. This were things taught to me
by
my instructor. I guess there can be some really big differences between
instructors.
We have storms building again today, so I am going to go out early tomorrow
morning and just enjoy flying for a change. I am going to go alone and just
relax and fly like I know I can.
Thanks again for all the excellent advise.
Larry Husky
Madras, Oregon
In a message dated 5/31/2008 7:59:31 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
wjones@brazoriainet.com writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "wade jones" <wjones@brazoriainet.com>
Yes Larry , Congratulations .When I wrote you words of encouragements last
week I did not tell you that I failed my first check ride back in 1961 .I
was impatient and instead of waiting on the FAA I used an unscrupulous
flight examiner .Long story ,there was no reason to fail me other than money
.
Wade Jones South Texas
601XL plans building
Cont. 0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "pavel569" <pm569@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 8:42 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Check Ride !!!
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "pavel569" <pm569@hotmail.com>
>
> CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> --------
> Pavel
> CA
> Zodiac XL N581PM (Reserved)
> Tail, flaps, ailerons done, right wing on the table ....
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185605#185605
>
>
>
**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Mr Leonard,
While I am not flying (because I'm building my 701), it seems to me that discussing
flight failures/accidents is relative to this list. I have no interest in
a 601, but I am interested in the potential issues, that may exist. You have
an audience here whom are most likely individualists. And as such make up their
own mind about things. While we of course all have to wait for the official
investigation results, it is human nature to discuss those things that are of
interest to you.
All airplane models have failures and crashes. If potential builders don't find
out the facts and are turned away, well then it is most likely in the best interest
of Zenith to not have someone incapable of research and risk management
flying their design.
stepping down from my soap box
Do Not Archive
Kevin McCune
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185621#185621
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Check Ride !!! |
Larry-
Pretty awesome, isn't it? One of the major milestones in my life. I
spent an hour on the phone (Easy) with my instructor afterwards in a
post-flight debrief.
You're now a certified fanatic, part of the less than 1% of the
world population that can call themselves pilots, and less than 1% of
pilots that are Zenith builders. You can prove that there is no BS
involved in your claims. All you have to do is whip out your license and
bore ground-pounders to death showing them pictures of your
project.Don't be reluctant to do this. You'll be amazed at how many
builder wannabes there are out there.
Welcome to a very exclusive group. You'll quickly find that a pilot
who's also a homebuilder (It doesn't matter what model) is closer to you
than your own brother.
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: LHusky@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 9:26 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Check Ride !!!
I PASSED!!!!! It was very unstable air with thunder storms building
everywhere, but I bounced my way to a successful check ride and I am now
a private pilot. I am very worn out from it all. My wife and kids
wanted rides, but I told them that I needed to rest and relax before I
give them rides. I want to thank everyone who responded with different
ideas. Now it is back to the build.
Larry Husky
Madras, Oregon
N667H (Reserved)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler
Florence" on AOL Food.
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
At 08:57 AM 5/30/2008 -0400, Paul wrote:
>I suspect it was dug up by the "Engineering" group on this forum to
>bolster their position for an independent design review.
>
>Once again, huge speculations are being made, uninformed comments are
>being presented, and unsupported "conclusions" are being made.
>
>It was a great last few weeks on the list with actually building comments
>being made and none of this crap. Lets get back to the purpose of this
>list, which is to trade building information and support.
>
>Paul
At 08:20 AM 5/30/2008 -0400, Jay wrote:
>What is really suspicious to me is that this incident happened a year ago.
>Why is it BIG (and pervasive) news now?
>
>I am now believing that there are some on this list that WANT the Zodiac
>to appear flawed and must have a compelling reason to discredit the
>design. Could it be that they have a need for Zenith to cease to exist?
>
>Besides those whom this string has intimidated to quit building, I know of
>at least one flying XL that is being parted out because of this witch hunt.
>
>Jay in Dallas
At 10:00 AM 5/31/2008 -0400, CHARLES LEONARD wrote:
>IT IS VERY APPARENT THAT THIS LIST HAS MANY MEMBERS THAT HAVE NO INTEREST
>IN BUILDING OR FLYING ZENITH AIRCRAFT. INSTEAD THEY SPEND THERE TIME
>TRYING TO TEAR UP ZENITH'S REPUTATION.
>
>ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. I THINK ALL POSTS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE
>BUILDING AND FLYING OF ZENITH AIRCRAFT SHOULD NOT APPEAR ON THIS LIST AT ALL.
>
>WOULDN'T IT BE NICE IF THIS LIST WOULD AGAIN REFLECT WHAT BUILDERS AND
>PILOTS WOULD LIKE TO READ ABOUT. THOSE WHO WANT TO PRETEND TO BE ACCIDENT
>INVESTIGATORS COULD FORM A NEW LIST. THEY MIGHT CALL IT THE SKY IS FALLING
>LIST.
>
>CHARLES LEONARD
>
>P.S. I AM FLYING MY ZENITH
At 12:57 PM 5/30/2008 -0400, Juan wrote:
>I recommend you don't build, buy a production plane. NON of the crashes
>are result related. If you want details, go read results of each one. Go
>build an another plane.
I think the rhetoric is getting out of hand here.
These are serious accusations. Talk about uninformed speculation--that is
exactly what we're reading above.
Let's put things in perspective. Looking through my mailboxes at ~1430 Z
this morning, I find 41 messages on the Zenith-List with "XL down" in the
headers. A grand total of 6 of those messages were posted by contributors
to the Zenith Builders Analysis Group. None of those 6 are intemperate or
accusatory towards ZAC in any way.
On the other hand, if we consider the 35 posts by other Zenith-Listers, Gig
alone accounts for 7--more than all the posts by the Group contributors
combined. One Zenith "friend" may be personally responsible for pushing a
potential Zenith customer away from Zenith's door. (See Juan's message
above.) As the old saying goes, "With friends like that, Zenith doesn't
need enemies."
I had the good fortune to have a long conversation with Alberto Martin a
couple of days ago. When I told him that I hadn't worked on my project
since the Polk City accident, he advised me to keep working. He said that
he had ordered the fuselage kit from ZAC so that he could work on the
fuselage while the various investigations of the wing were ongoing.
Hmm ... Doesn't sound like someone who has "NO INTEREST IN BUILDING OR
FLYING ZENITH AIRCRAFT."
If I understood Alberto correctly, he personally knew two of the pilots
killed in XL accidents involving structural failures. Perhaps you can fault
him for being concerned about the wing structure, but I cannot. Those of
you who read both the Zenith-List and the [ZBAG] forum are, hopefully,
aware that Alberto initially posted the information about the French
accident only to the [ZBAG] forum. He posted the link as soon as he learned
of it. Considerable discussion ensued. Someone on the [ABAG] forum
suggested that readers of the Zenith-List should at least be aware of the
accident, so Alberto then posted the link to the Zenith-List. Well, I
guess if you believe in conspiracies, you can find one everywhere you look.
I can assure Paul that, "the "Engineering" group on this forum" does not
need, "to bolster their position for an independent design review." The
"independent design review" is going to happen. Enough Zenith builders have
agreed to contribute $300 apiece to make it possible. We would appreciate
some more contributions so that we can analyze more options, but the basic
analysis will definitely be done. I seriously doubt that anyone willing to
contribute $300 to evaluate the structure of the wing is likely to want to
damage ZAC. I wish I could guarantee that our analysis will produce an
unequivocal assessment on the XL wing design. But I cannot. But, at least
23 of us are willing to support a proactive approach to find some answers.
And I don't believe we deserve the accusations that are flying around on
this list.
'Nuff said.
Terry
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
I agree Paul 100%. I'm finding they are starting up another thread in order
to keep the "fires burning". If you did just a little research on who
started this one, you will find this "accident" happened a little over a year
ago. Why rehash it now again?????
I am finding ALL of these lists that post such information (which the except
of the group that decided to take their discussions to a new forum - thank
you by the way!!) to be a LOT overwhelming. Why should I build or finish
an aircraft that is going to crash??? Common sense tells me I need to
call a junk dealer to reclaim all my "scrap metal" I've developed and NEVER let
anyone fly this death trap!!
See what a lot of listers don't get is, people actually DO take everything they
read to heart! In fact I know of 3 people that have literally sold or abandoned
their airplane because of what they are reading on these lists.
I for one am damned tired of reading about all the gloom and doom. If these
people insist on doing what they love to do (causing problems) I will be
very shortly behind those that have decided to delete their names from all the
lists. I do agree there IS a lot of good on these lists. I will have
to weigh out how much of the bad can I take before I can't take it any longer.
I WOULD suggest to Matt Dralle, that we need a forum of BONAFIDE builders that
actually have VALID PLANS in hand. They should be REQUIRED to prove they
do in fact own those serialized plans before they are allowed to join the group.
That would ensure only actual builders and plan holders have a legitimate
reason to be on here. Matt could get a list of serial numbers and
names of owners from Zenith. Mine is 7128 for a CH601XL. Anyone that
can't prove it, sorry - you can't belong to the list. This would totally
eliminate any trouble makers from posting irrational rants on here.
Sounds like a good idea to me.
Other comments and suggestions are of course always welcome!
Larry Hursh
Skyridersbn@yahoo.com
Edwardsburg, MI
CH601XL Serial Number 7128
(N601LL Reserved)
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Carpet hold-downs? |
Gang:
I am ready to install the carpeting in the baggage compartment of my
601XL. It is cut and trimmed to fit, but I am unsure of the best way to
keep it in place. Options I have thought of are:
[1] spray glue
[2] 2-sided carpet tape
[3] plastic rivets (like in cars)
[4] screws and fender washers
I would be interested in hearing opinions and other ideas. Note that I
am using the very light "replacement" carpeting from Wal-Mart Aviation
Supply, and I expect that it will need replacing every few years.
Thanks,
Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
N601GE (reserved)
601XL/TD, Corvair (very close now!), building...
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Carpet hold-downs? |
Velcro
----- Original Message -----
From: Dr. Andrew Elliott
To: Zenith-List Digest Server
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 11:15 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Carpet hold-downs?
Gang:
I am ready to install the carpeting in the baggage compartment of my
601XL. It is cut and trimmed to fit, but I am unsure of the best way to
keep it in place. Options I have thought of are:
[1] spray glue
[2] 2-sided carpet tape
[3] plastic rivets (like in cars)
[4] screws and fender washers
I would be interested in hearing opinions and other ideas. Note that
I am using the very light "replacement" carpeting from Wal-Mart Aviation
Supply, and I expect that it will need replacing every few years.
Thanks,
Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
N601GE (reserved)
601XL/TD, Corvair (very close now!), building...
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Carpet hold-downs? |
Dred-
Criminy, go with a NASA developed method- Velcro!!
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Dr. Andrew Elliott
To: Zenith-List Digest Server
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 2:15 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Carpet hold-downs?
Gang:
I am ready to install the carpeting in the baggage compartment of my
601XL. It is cut and trimmed to fit, but I am unsure of the best way to
keep it in place. Options I have thought of are:
[1] spray glue
[2] 2-sided carpet tape
[3] plastic rivets (like in cars)
[4] screws and fender washers
I would be interested in hearing opinions and other ideas. Note that
I am using the very light "replacement" carpeting from Wal-Mart Aviation
Supply, and I expect that it will need replacing every few years.
Thanks,
Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
N601GE (reserved)
601XL/TD, Corvair (very close now!), building...
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | I have had it with the armchair engineers... |
List,
I use to look forward to reading how different people were addressing different
problems of building, but now this group has several detractors bound and determine
to undermine any confidence in our building, our kits, the plane design,
the company or our flying skills.
I tend to believe the builder that suggested, just maybe, some competitors have
infiltrated our forum in order to discredit Zenith, Chris or whatever. I really
don't give a rats behind what happened to an aircraft a year ago, in a different
country, with different laws , different builders, etc. Somebody please
ask Matt to start a forum entitled "BS for amateurs. Knock off the speculation
and get back to building. If your worried about the proven 601XL, build something
else!
Blue skies and happy landings...
Mike
--------
Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com
601 XL, 3300, Dynon
Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185634#185634
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Carpet hold-downs? |
I found that the glue on the velcro got soft in the heat of the summer and
would not secure the carpet when moving thins about in the summer. I ended
up using carpet tape and it cure the movement issue.
George May
601XL 912s
From: a.s.elliott@cox.netTo: zenith-list@matronics.comSubject: Zenith-List:
Carpet hold-downs?Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 11:15:47 -0700
Gang:
I am ready to install the carpeting in the baggage compartment of my 601XL.
It is cut and trimmed to fit, but I am unsure of the best way to keep it
in place. Options I have thought of are:
[1] spray glue
[2] 2-sided carpet tape
[3] plastic rivets (like in cars)
[4] screws and fender washers
I would be interested in hearing opinions and other ideas. Note that I am
using the very light "replacement" carpeting from Wal-Mart Aviation Supply,
and I expect that it will need replacing every few years.
Thanks,
Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZN601GE (reserved)601XL/TD, Corvair (very close now!),
building...
_________________________________________________________________
E-mail for the greater good. Join the i=92m Initiative from Microsoft.
ood
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Carpet hold-downs? |
Hi Andrew,
I used spray contact cement. It's wise to only put it on spots, edges
and corners if you feel it will be short lived carpet. I haven't seen
any degradation in my cheap carpet in 4 years and doubt it will ever
need replacement.
Good idea to put an aluminum hold-down strip with screws on the carpet's
front exposed edge.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/speaker-cover.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/601towbarstowed.gif
Larry McFarland 601HDs at www.macsmachine.com
Dr. Andrew Elliott wrote:
> Gang:
>
> I am ready to install the carpeting in the baggage compartment of my
> 601XL. It is cut and trimmed to fit, but I am unsure of the best way
> to keep it in place. Options I have thought of are:
>
> [1] spray glue
> [2] 2-sided carpet tape
> [3] plastic rivets (like in cars)
> [4] screws and fender washers
>
> I would be interested in hearing opinions and other ideas. Note that
> I am using the very light "replacement" carpeting from Wal-Mart
> Aviation Supply, and I expect that it will need replacing every few years.
>
> Thanks,
> Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
> N601GE (reserved)
> 601XL/TD, Corvair (very close now!), building...
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
I've only seen a couple of irrational rants, your's is one of them. A
lot of what you learned in flight training had to do with managing risk,
assessing risk, avoiding risk. In the face of a number of incidents,
some dedicated XL owners have decided to try to get some additional
info. Others are asking for additional info.
I'm curious why your solution is to simply deny the possibility.
Censorship? Be real careful what you wish for.
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Hursh
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CENSORSHIP
I agree Paul 100%. I'm finding they are starting up another
thread in order to keep the "fires burning". If you did just a little
research on who started this one, you will find this "accident" happened
a little over a year ago. Why rehash it now again?????
I am finding ALL of these lists that post such information
(which the except of the group that decided to take their discussions to
a new forum - thank you by the way!!) to be a LOT overwhelming. Why
should I build or finish an aircraft that is going to crash??? Common
sense tells me I need to call a junk dealer to reclaim all my "scrap
metal" I've developed and NEVER let anyone fly this death trap!!
See what a lot of listers don't get is, people actually DO take
everything they read to heart! In fact I know of 3 people that have
literally sold or abandoned their airplane because of what they are
reading on these lists. I for one am damned tired of reading about all
the gloom and doom. If these people insist on doing what they love to
do (causing problems) I will be very shortly behind those that have
decided to delete their names from all the lists. I do agree there IS a
lot of good on these lists. I will have to weigh out how much of the
bad can I take before I can't take it any longer.
I WOULD suggest to Matt Dralle, that we need a forum of BONAFIDE
builders that actually have VALID PLANS in hand. They should be
REQUIRED to prove they do in fact own those serialized plans before they
are allowed to join the group. That would ensure only actual builders
and plan holders have a legitimate reason to be on here. Matt could get
a list of serial numbers and names of owners from Zenith. Mine is 7128
for a CH601XL. Anyone that can't prove it, sorry - you can't belong to
the list. This would totally eliminate any trouble makers from posting
irrational rants on here. Sounds like a good idea to me.
Other comments and suggestions are of course always welcome!
Larry Hursh
Skyridersbn@yahoo.com
Edwardsburg, MI
CH601XL Serial Number 7128
(N601LL Reserved)
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Carpet hold-downs? |
This is true the glue on all the Velcro I've ever used didn't last. But I love
Velcro so I suggest you get Velcro with NO glue and then use some quality glue
to attach it.
gfmjr_20(at)HOTMAIL.COM wrote:
> I found that the glue on the velcro got soft in the heat of the summer and would
not secure the carpet when moving thins about in the summer. I ended up using
carpet tape and it cure the movement issue.
>
> George May
> 601XL 912s
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185646#185646
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Cabin Pressure Test |
Hi,
We have carried out some tests of cabin pressure versus ambient pressure
measured by the static system.
Setup: Airplane: 601HDS. Additional altimeter in the cockpit,
set to same altitude as panel altimeter on the ground (792 ft MSL)
before starting the engine.
All measurements at 75 deg F OAT, altitude 2,000 - 3,000 ft MSL.
In each case, the additional altimeter was HIGH relative to the panel
altimeter,
meaning that cockpit pressure was LESS than the pressure in the static
system.
Below, that difference is given in ft. To convert to
inches mercury, divide by 1000, since 1000 ft altitude roughly
corresponds to
1 inch of mercury column. The difference depends on airspeed, as one
might expect. Here are the details. True airspeed is estimate using
GPS for calibration.
Speed (TAS kts) Altitude Difference (ft)
85 100
100 150
112* 200
* This is max level speed for the plane (601 HDS, 912 Rotax engine,
GSC wood propeller)
My friend J. Wybanga, expert pilot/mechanic, counseled that cockpit
temperature can be a big factor when outside temperature
is low. We did a test of this, and found that at max speed, turning
on the heater raised the alt. difference from 200 to 220 ft, which is
not
much. But outside temperature was 75 deg F. I did not want to go through
the long climb to 14,000 ft to repeat the test with low outside
temperature.
Why is this important? In pre-GPS days, sellers of airplanes sometimes
would turn off the static system and turn on the heat to demonstrate
high airspeed to the buyer. According to Wybanga, under extreme
circumstances, this can turn an older 150 mph Mooney into a 180 mph
speedster.
If you buy a plane and speed is of concern, insist that a handheld GPS
unit
is taken aloft for measurements if there is no panel GPS installation.
Happy flying,
Klaus
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Sorry Terry, but it is not in my nature to let statements made that I believe are
either false or misleading to go unanswered. Especially on a topic I care about.
Terry Phillips wrote:
> On the other hand, if we consider the 35 posts by other Zenith-Listers, Gig
alone accounts for 7--more than all the posts by the Group contributors combined.
One Zenith "friend" may be personally responsible for pushing a potential
Zenith customer away from Zenith's door. (See Juan's message above.) As the old
saying goes, "With friends like that, Zenith doesn't need enemies."
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185651#185651
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Nose gear weight |
I have just weighed my 601XL with a WW Corvair engine. I suspect that the weight
of the nose gear is in error.
What weight have some of you (XL w/Corvair) recorded for the nose gear?
Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser"
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Terry,
Sometimes it is best to walk away from business than to try to please someone that
will forever, bitch about your product. I don't want to hear for the next
decade from some guy that builds a plane and bitches how bad the design is.
Everyone is entitled to choices, if you don't like it, (the kit), then buy another
one or buy production and move on. Suggesting to someone that has doubts
to move on and build something els is probably the best thing you can do for
a product or company.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com>
>Sent: May 31, 2008 6:11 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CENSORSHIP
>
>
>Sorry Terry, but it is not in my nature to let statements made that I believe
are either false or misleading to go unanswered. Especially on a topic I care
about.
>
>
>Terry Phillips wrote:
>> On the other hand, if we consider the 35 posts by other Zenith-Listers, Gig
alone accounts for 7--more than all the posts by the Group contributors combined.
One Zenith "friend" may be personally responsible for pushing a potential
Zenith customer away from Zenith's door. (See Juan's message above.) As the old
saying goes, "With friends like that, Zenith doesn't need enemies."
>
>
>--------
>W.R. "Gig" Giacona
>601XL Under Construction
>See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185651#185651
>
>
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Carpet hold-downs? |
make half inch thick block of plywood, and place then in key spots, then from the
outside, screw them fixed, then place your velco to attached the panel, or
tap screw.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
>Sent: May 31, 2008 3:09 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Carpet hold-downs?
>
>
>
>Hi Andrew,
>I used spray contact cement. It's wise to only put it on spots, edges
>and corners if you feel it will be short lived carpet. I haven't seen
>any degradation in my cheap carpet in 4 years and doubt it will ever
>need replacement.
>Good idea to put an aluminum hold-down strip with screws on the carpet's
>front exposed edge.
>http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/speaker-cover.gif
>http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/601towbarstowed.gif
>
>Larry McFarland 601HDs at www.macsmachine.com
>
>Dr. Andrew Elliott wrote:
>> Gang:
>>
>> I am ready to install the carpeting in the baggage compartment of my
>> 601XL. It is cut and trimmed to fit, but I am unsure of the best way
>> to keep it in place. Options I have thought of are:
>>
>> [1] spray glue
>> [2] 2-sided carpet tape
>> [3] plastic rivets (like in cars)
>> [4] screws and fender washers
>>
>> I would be interested in hearing opinions and other ideas. Note that
>> I am using the very light "replacement" carpeting from Wal-Mart
>> Aviation Supply, and I expect that it will need replacing every few years.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
>> N601GE (reserved)
>> 601XL/TD, Corvair (very close now!), building...
>
>
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Check Ride !!! |
Larry, just think there are only 600,000 out of a population of 300,000,000.!!
something to feel good about.
Congrads,
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Naumuk <naumuk@alltel.net>
>Sent: May 31, 2008 12:26 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Check Ride !!!
>
>Larry-
> Pretty awesome, isn't it? One of the major milestones in my life. I spent
an hour on the phone (Easy) with my instructor afterwards in a post-flight debrief.
> You're now a certified fanatic, part of the less than 1% of the world population
that can call themselves pilots, and less than 1% of pilots that are Zenith
builders. You can prove that there is no BS involved in your claims. All
you have to do is whip out your license and bore ground-pounders to death showing
them pictures of your project.Don't be reluctant to do this. You'll be amazed
at how many builder wannabes there are out there.
> Welcome to a very exclusive group. You'll quickly find that a pilot who's
also a homebuilder (It doesn't matter what model) is closer to you than your own
brother.
> Bill
> do not archive
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: LHusky@aol.com
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 9:26 PM
> Subject: Zenith-List: Check Ride !!!
>
>
> I PASSED!!!!! It was very unstable air with thunder storms building everywhere,
but I bounced my way to a successful check ride and I am now a private pilot.
I am very worn out from it all. My wife and kids wanted rides, but I told
them that I needed to rest and relax before I give them rides. I want to thank
everyone who responded with different ideas. Now it is back to the build.
>
> Larry Husky
> Madras, Oregon
> N667H (Reserved)
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on
AOL Food.
>
>
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Sorry if something I wrote confused you, Gig.
From your post, I cannot tell exactly what you were referring to, but let
me take this opportunity to clear up a possible misunderstanding:
When I said, "contributors to the Zenith Builders Analysis Group" what I
meant was individuals who have pledged to contribute $300 each to support
the Group's analysis project. If that was misleading, it was not
intentionally so.
If something else was misleading, you'll have be a bit more explicit about
what it might have been. I'd be better able to respond if I knew what you
were referring to.
Terry
do not archive
At 03:11 PM 5/31/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>Sorry Terry, but it is not in my nature to let statements made that I
>believe are either false or misleading to go unanswered. Especially on a
>topic I care about.
>
>
>Terry Phillips wrote:
> > On the other hand, if we consider the 35 posts by other
> Zenith-Listers, Gig alone accounts for 7--more than all the posts by the
> Group contributors combined. One Zenith "friend" may be personally
> responsible for pushing a potential Zenith customer away from Zenith's
> door. (See Juan's message above.) As the old saying goes, "With friends
> like that, Zenith doesn't need enemies."
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Juan
Perhaps you are right. Maybe the best thing that you or I can do for Zenith
right now is to discourage any potential builders (customers) who are
concerned because they have heard about the 601XL accidents. Maybe. Maybe
not. I guess that I'm not so sure. You might want to bounce that off Zenith
and tell us what they say.
Terry
do not archive
At 06:22 PM 5/31/2008 -0400, you wrote:
>Terry,
>Sometimes it is best to walk away from business than to try to please
>someone that will forever, bitch about your product. I don't want to hear
>for the next decade from some guy that builds a plane and bitches how bad
>the design is. Everyone is entitled to choices, if you don't like it,
>(the kit), then buy another one or buy production and move on. Suggesting
>to someone that has doubts to move on and build something els is probably
>the best thing you can do for a product or company.
>
>Juan
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 26
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | RE: Zenith601-List: I have had it with the armchair engineers... |
<snip>
I tend to believe the builder that suggested, just maybe, some competitors
have infiltrated our forum in order to discredit Zenith, Chris or whatever.
I really don't give a rats behind what happened to an aircraft a year ago,
in a different country, with different laws , different builders, etc.
Somebody please ask Matt to start a forum entitled "BS for amateurs. Knock
off the speculation and get back to building. If your worried about the
proven 601XL, build something else!
Mike,
I can confirm that there are such folks out there. Last fall when I
hosted the Zenith Gathering at Winchester, Virginia, I was treated to a gang
of three Zenith competitors that evidently had studied up on everything bad
about Zenith aircraft. They spent a lot of time talking about all the
problems with Zenith aircraft. Eventually they just went away, but we had
to ignore them for quite a while. But they were there, in person, clearly
trying to influence the Zenith crowd that Zenith aircraft were dangerous and
theirs was better.
For my part, splitting up the Zenith list has just added confusion
about which is which. I'll have a building related post on replacing the
bearings on the old Matco (1999 era) wheels tomorrow!
Jeff Davidson
Message 27
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
terry ,
be my guest, i have better things to do like go fly my 601 xl.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Terry Phillips <ttp44@rkymtn.net>
>Sent: May 31, 2008 6:57 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CENSORSHIP
>
>
>Juan
>
>Perhaps you are right. Maybe the best thing that you or I can do for Zenith
>right now is to discourage any potential builders (customers) who are
>concerned because they have heard about the 601XL accidents. Maybe. Maybe
>not. I guess that I'm not so sure. You might want to bounce that off Zenith
>and tell us what they say.
>
>Terry
>
>do not archive
>
>At 06:22 PM 5/31/2008 -0400, you wrote:
>>Terry,
>>Sometimes it is best to walk away from business than to try to please
>>someone that will forever, bitch about your product. I don't want to hear
>>for the next decade from some guy that builds a plane and bitches how bad
>>the design is. Everyone is entitled to choices, if you don't like it,
>>(the kit), then buy another one or buy production and move on. Suggesting
>>to someone that has doubts to move on and build something els is probably
>>the best thing you can do for a product or company.
>>
>>Juan
>
>
>Terry Phillips
>ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
>Corvallis MT
>601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
>are done; working on the wings
>http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
>
>
Message 28
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
terry ,
be my guest, i have better things to do like go fly my 601 xl.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Terry Phillips <ttp44@rkymtn.net>
>Sent: May 31, 2008 6:57 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CENSORSHIP
>
>
>Juan
>
>Perhaps you are right. Maybe the best thing that you or I can do for Zenith
>right now is to discourage any potential builders (customers) who are
>concerned because they have heard about the 601XL accidents. Maybe. Maybe
>not. I guess that I'm not so sure. You might want to bounce that off Zenith
>and tell us what they say.
>
>Terry
>
>do not archive
>
>At 06:22 PM 5/31/2008 -0400, you wrote:
>>Terry,
>>Sometimes it is best to walk away from business than to try to please
>>someone that will forever, bitch about your product. I don't want to hear
>>for the next decade from some guy that builds a plane and bitches how bad
>>the design is. Everyone is entitled to choices, if you don't like it,
>>(the kit), then buy another one or buy production and move on. Suggesting
>>to someone that has doubts to move on and build something els is probably
>>the best thing you can do for a product or company.
>>
>>Juan
>
>
>Terry Phillips
>ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
>Corvallis MT
>601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
>are done; working on the wings
>http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
>
>
Message 29
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
If you feel compelled to do so, then you should do so. But I don't believe that
you feel this way. Both side of this silly topic need to step back and think,
we all have opinions. This is a forum to discuss those opinions related to Zenith
as well as the passion for flying and building your own Zenith, as well as
helping others to do so. I believe it states "all things Zenith" some were on
this list, well the there ya go.
Sarcasm will never enable a solution to a dispute, it WILL always deepen the opposing
trenches..
Kevin
Do Not Archive
Terry Phillips wrote:
> Juan
>
> Perhaps you are right. Maybe the best thing that you or I can do for Zenith
> right now is to discourage any potential builders (customers) who are
> concerned because they have heard about the 601XL accidents.
>
> Terry
>
> do not archive
>
> At 06:22 PM 5/31/2008 -0400, you wrote:
>
> > Terry,
> > Sometimes it is best to walk away from business than to try to please
> > someone that will forever, bitch about your product. I don't want to hear
> > for the next decade from some guy that builds a plane and bitches how bad
> > the design is. Everyone is entitled to choices, if you don't like it,
> > (the kit), then buy another one or buy production and move on. Suggesting
> > to someone that has doubts to move on and build something els is probably
> > the best thing you can do for a product or company.
> >
> > Juan
> >
> >
>
>
> Terry Phillips
> ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
> Corvallis MT
> 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
> are done; working on the wings
> http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185667#185667
Message 30
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: ZAC's reputation (was Re: XL down - France) |
Jay in Dallas recently said:
>I am now believing that there are some on this list
>that WANT the Zodiac to appear flawed and must have
>a compelling reason to discredit the design. Could it
>be that they have a need for Zenith to cease to exist?
Or perhaps the person or persons involved
are the owner of one of the several Zenith
copyright-infringers-I-mean-look-alike
aircraft and are currently being sued or otherwise
legally pressured by Zenith (as I understand ZAC
is doing.) If Zenith ceases production....the
lawsuits might become moot.
Of course, there's also just folks who love to stand
back and criticize regardless of the endeavor.
Starting an airworthiness debate on a home-building
board is similar to restarting The Great Morse Code
Debate on a ham-radio newsgroup. (and trust me - if
you don't get it, all the hams in the audience are
probably groaning right now.)
Who knows - in the long run, the skill and precision of
the builder is typically a much, much, larger input to final
airworthiness than any but the most egregious design
errors. I'd honestly stop worrying about it and spend
the time saved devising a realistic and useful inspection
program to catch something like this in the bud.
Richard Perry
do not archive - WAYYYY off topic.
Message 31
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Can we all agree on this? (please read) |
The best way to avoid accident discussion of getting out of hand is this; When
an accident occurs, only the first post breaking the news should be posted in
matronics, this first post should include the facts of the accident know so far
and the following note. "Please make any follow up on this topic to the ZBAG
group or off list" or something of that nature. If for some reason, someone attempt
to make comments and follow up. Ignore the post or respond to the "offender"
asking him/her to do any follow up off list or to the ZBAG forum. The ZBAG
forum is moderated so anyone trashing Zenith will be banned.
The worst thing anyone can do is to keep adding messages to the topic (I'm guilty
of that too) Lets no fuel the fire any more and keep this list only for building.
I was the person who suggested Alberto to post the French accident news here in
matronics. It didn't occur to me to suggest him to put such note about making
any follow up off this list. What caused all hell to break loose was not Alberto's
original post but the follow up that I and many of you have participated.
If you re-read the threads, you'll notice that the rhetoric is getting worst
and worst.
So lets start right now. No more messages about known accidents here in matronics.
Lets go back to building related messages.
Do we have a deal?
Now lets take a good breath, go back to our shops and pull some rivets. Plenty
of planes waiting to be finished.
--------
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185669#185669
Message 32
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Can we all agree on this? (please read) |
"The worst thing anyone can do is to keep adding messages to the topic (I'm
guilty of that too) Lets no fuel the fire any more and keep this list only for
building".
I was the person who suggested Alberto to post the French accident news here in
matronics. It didn't occur to me to suggest him to put such note about
making any follow up off this list. What caused all hell to break loose was not
Alberto's original post but the follow up that I and many of you have
participated. If you re-read the threads, you'll notice that the rhetoric
is getting worst and worst.
So lets start right now. No more messages about known accidents here in
matronics. Lets go back to building related messages.
Do we have a deal?
Now lets take a good breath, go back to our shops and pull some rivets. Plenty
of planes waiting to be finished.
--------
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
Dear William,This is the BEST POST I've read all day! WELL SAID AND THANK YOU!Larry
Hursh
Message 33
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Censorship, split lists, "bad-mouthing competitors", etc. |
- a non-builder's perspective
All -
I would like to offer my non-Zenith owner/builder perspective on this whole
mess.
First, a little about me: I have been a subscriber to mailing list for
almost a year now (7/10/2007 was the first Zenith list e-mail in my in-box -
yes, I save them all in an archive) and I have marveled at all the
incredibly knowledgeable, smart, creative, generous and impossibly patient
and meticulous people who contribute here on a regular basis. I am also a
member of the RANS yahoo group and while they are an equally wonderful group
of people, they are kit builders and flyers (for the most part) and aren't
nearly as involved in their aircraft construction and design. I think if
you search the archives you will find that I haven't contributed a single
bit of useful airplane information to this group - my only queries have been
about fuel systems in general (I am constantly building/busting/rebulding a
track car).
I started subscribing to this list when I first saw a video of the 701 take
off in 150 feet (I didn't know about a 701-specific list at the time). I
have a dream of building my own plane at some point and the 701 was (and is)
still at the top of my list of candidates (the RANS S7 and 601XL are tied
for second).
So why do I subscribe to this list? And why would I read every single
message posted to this list - accident related included? And most
importantly, why would I care at all about this continuing bickering about
who should post what?
All good questions. What I get out of this list is the following (in no
particular order):
- A constant amazement at the skills and knowledge of you scratch
builders out there. I can't possibly describe how much I admire what you
do. It is incredible. It is way better than anything on TV.
- I learn something new every single day from reading this list. Some of
it is immediately useful (metal working ideas, clever solutions to tricky
problems, etc.), some of it will be useful in the near future when I finally
get my butt back up in an airplane (in-depth discussions about aircraft and
avionic systems, tips and suggestions for flying techniques), and some of it
will probably never be directly useful (solving cooling problems with a
particular motor/cowl combination, causes and structural remediation of
flutter in airfoil design). But even the stuff I will never use is
immensely interesting.
- A constant reminder of what I am missing by not flying regularly (long
story) and some sense of being a part of the flying community that I miss so
badly.
My take on the discussions of the accidents is that I think they contribute
positively. There is some argument that these posts are driving people away
from the 601 and Zenith aircraft but I feel just the opposite. I _like_ the
fact that there is a group of smart builders out there that are constantly
taking look at what is going on. I _like_ the idea that the design of the
plane, the construction techniques & materials are all under constant
scrutiny and improvement. I would feel much less certain about an aircraft
if nobody ever talked about anything that might be wrong or could (possibly)
need improvement or fixing. I personally think it would be appropriate to
have these discussions if there was only one accident.
Do I believe that there is something "wrong" with the design? I have no
idea. I am a software engineer. I am a bit of a physics geek and I can
follow the discussions but I am woefully unqualified to express an opinion.
Would I fly in a 601 tomorrow if the offer came up? Oh, yes. Sort of.
Depends more on the pilot than the plane - I wouldn't fly in a 182 if I
thought the pilot was a yank-and-bank hot shot who flew beyond his
aircraft's or his own personal limits. But I never pass up an opportunity
to go fly and would jump in to the right seat of a 601 in a heartbeat.
Honest. Try me. I'll buy the gas. :)
So now to the important (to you) part: Why should you care if I get anything
out of this list? Why do I think it is a really, really bad idea to only
allow builders to subscribe as was suggested today? This list is the
primary reason I am even considering the 601XL as the plane for me. I love
this list and I would never have considered the 601 or scratch building
before I started reading about what all of you do and the kind of support I
could find here. I am also more inclined to build a plane when I know that
there is a community of smart people constantly involved in the analysis and
improvement of the design.
The long and the short of it is this: I don't currently own a 601XL nor am I
building one - but I may very well become one because of this list, and in
particular because the people most intimately involved with the plane are
willing to discuss the good and the (potentially) bad in an open and honest
forum. This list, complete with the back and forth discussions of potential
problems, is the best advertising the 601XL could possibly get. If there
are competitors here that are trying to drive business away then let the
discussions, the facts and the ultimate conclusions speak for themselves.
(Lest you think I am "one of those people", you can contact me directly at
dkbrooks@gmail.com.)
And please don't boot non-builders off this list. I don't know what I would
do with my lunch breaks without it.
Dave
(Do not archive.)
Message 34
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Censorship, split lists, "bad-mouthing competitors", |
etc. - a non-builder's perspective
Dear Dave,
I was the person that stated I thought this list should be used by builders and
plan holders that have a serial numbered set of prints. After I read what
you had written, I CAN understand what you are saying and I have to admit you
do have a lot of great points. I stand corrected. Everyone should
be able to read what is going on with all the posts, both the good and the
bad. I guess I need to follow what another builder suggested to me earlier -
get a thicker skin.
Thanks for making me see the other side of this. I hope when you can, you
WILL get back to flying again. Don't wait until you can "afford it" like
I did. I still can't afford it, but I'm doing it anyway!!
I'm now 58 and look what I've missed all these years???? Don't let THIS
happen to YOU! Heed the words from this old man, will yah??
Fly safe and fly high always,
Larry Hursh
--- On Sat, 5/31/08, David Brooks <dkbrooks@gmail.com> wrote:
From: David Brooks <dkbrooks@gmail.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Censorship, split lists, "bad-mouthing competitors", etc.
- a non-builder's perspective
All -
I would like to offer my non-Zenith owner/builder perspective on this whole mess.
First, a little about me: I have been a subscriber to mailing list for almost a
year now (7/10/2007 was the first Zenith list e-mail in my in-box - yes, I save
them all in an archive) and I have marveled at all the incredibly knowledgeable,
smart, creative, generous and impossibly patient and meticulous people who
contribute here on a regular basis. I am also a member of the RANS yahoo
group and while they are an equally wonderful group of people, they are kit
builders and flyers (for the most part) and aren't nearly as involved in their
aircraft construction and design. I think if you search the archives
you will find that I haven't contributed a single bit of useful airplane information
to this group - my only queries have been about fuel systems in general
(I am constantly building/busting/rebulding a track car).
I started subscribing to this list when I first saw a video of the 701 take off
in 150 feet (I didn't know about a 701-specific list at the time). I have
a dream of building my own plane at some point and the 701 was (and is) still
at the top of my list of candidates (the RANS S7 and 601XL are tied for second).
So why do I subscribe to this list? And why would I read every single message
posted to this list - accident related included? And most importantly,
why would I care at all about this continuing bickering about who should post
what?
All good questions. What I get out of this list is the following (in no particular
order):
A constant amazement at the skills and knowledge of you scratch builders out there.
I can't possibly describe how much I admire what you do. It is
incredible. It is way better than anything on TV.
I learn something new every single day from reading this list. Some of it
is immediately useful (metal working ideas, clever solutions to tricky problems,
etc.), some of it will be useful in the near future when I finally get my
butt back up in an airplane (in-depth discussions about aircraft and avionic systems,
tips and suggestions for flying techniques), and some of it will probably
never be directly useful (solving cooling problems with a particular motor/cowl
combination, causes and structural remediation of flutter in airfoil design).
But even the stuff I will never use is immensely interesting.
A constant reminder of what I am missing by not flying regularly (long story) and
some sense of being a part of the flying community that I miss so badly.My
take on the discussions of the accidents is that I think they contribute positively.
There is some argument that these posts are driving people away from
the 601 and Zenith aircraft but I feel just the opposite. I _like_ the
fact that there is a group of smart builders out there that are constantly
taking look at what is going on. I _like_ the idea that the design of the
plane, the construction techniques & materials are all under constant scrutiny
and improvement. I would feel much less certain about an aircraft
if nobody ever talked about anything that might be wrong or could (possibly)
need improvement or fixing. I personally think it would be appropriate to
have these discussions if there was only one accident.
Do I believe that there is something "wrong" with the design? I have no idea.
I am a software engineer. I am a bit of a physics geek and I
can follow the discussions but I am woefully unqualified to express an opinion.
Would I fly in a 601 tomorrow if the offer came up? Oh, yes.
Sort of. Depends more on the pilot than the plane - I wouldn't fly in
a 182 if I thought the pilot was a yank-and-bank hot shot who flew beyond his
aircraft's or his own personal limits. But I never pass up an opportunity
to go fly and would jump in to the right seat of a 601 in a heartbeat.
Honest. Try me. I'll buy the gas. :)
So now to the important (to you) part: Why should you care if I get anything out
of this list? Why do I think it is a really, really bad idea to only allow
builders to subscribe as was suggested today? This list is the primary
reason I am even considering the 601XL as the plane for me. I love this
list and I would never have considered the 601 or scratch building before
I started reading about what all of you do and the kind of support I could find
here. I am also more inclined to build a plane when I know that there
is a community of smart people constantly involved in the analysis and improvement
of the design.
The long and the short of it is this: I don't currently own a 601XL nor am I building
one - but I may very well become one because of this list, and in particular
because the people most intimately involved with the plane are willing to
discuss the good and the (potentially) bad in an open and honest forum.
This list, complete with the back and forth discussions of potential problems,
is the best advertising the 601XL could possibly get. If there are competitors
here that are trying to drive business away then let the discussions,
the facts and the ultimate conclusions speak for themselves. (Lest you
think I am "one of those people", you can contact me directly at dkbrooks@gmail.com.)
And please don't boot non-builders off this list. I don't know what I would
do with my lunch breaks without it.
Dave
(Do not archive.)
Message 35
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Cabin Pressure Test |
In my CH701 I can go from 63 kts IAS to 70 Kts IAS by pulling the line on my external
static port. when a passenger complains it goes too slow thats what I do
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185686#185686
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|