Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:33 AM - Yahoo! Auto Response (wfwilson1@yahoo.ca)
2. 07:12 AM - Re: Filler (Bill Naumuk)
3. 08:02 AM - Re: Filler (R. Johnson)
4. 08:05 AM - RES: Filler (Francisco Espuny)
5. 09:18 AM - Re: Filler (Dave G.)
6. 11:21 AM - Re: Filler (Bill Naumuk)
7. 11:52 AM - RES: Filler (Francisco Espuny)
8. 12:41 PM - Re: Filler (Bill Naumuk)
9. 12:53 PM - Re: Filler (Paul Mulwitz)
10. 02:11 PM - Re: Filler (raymondj)
11. 02:24 PM - Cable Tension (BobbyPaulk@comcast.net)
12. 02:54 PM - Re: Filler (Dave G.)
13. 03:01 PM - Re: Filler (Dave G.)
14. 05:10 PM - Re: Cable Tension (LarryMcFarland)
15. 06:48 PM - 601XL Fuselage DVD Part2 now available (Jon Croke)
16. 11:08 PM - Official Zenith-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
17. 11:14 PM - Official Zenith-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Yahoo! Auto Response |
I will have limited access to my mail until July 6/08. So there might be slow response.
Regards
Wayne
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John, John, John-
No homebuilder is going to say "Nice job" from 20 feet away. The
only people who would wouldn't know an aileron from an elevator. Vanity
or pride, take your pick.
The instinctive habit of builders zeroing in on the
fiberglass/aluminum junctures is precisely why this discussion keeps
recurring. I've seen everything from Jeff Small's zero filler HDS with
gorgeous seams to 1/2" gaps plugged with Bondo that has fallen out and
left, well, 1/2" gaps flapping in the wind. The goal is to find a filler
that's going to be around for the long run if you have to use it.
After seeing Mark Langford's KR2, filling rivet domes is going
overboard in my opinion. Mark has arguably the most highly tweaked
Corvair conversion around in his plane, but you'd swear the airframe was
built as an afterthought. Raw, unfilled, unpainted fiberglass. Think of
exposed rivet domes over every square inch of flying surface, but he's
20 knots faster than the cleanest 601 out there.
Think about it. I just gave a review of at least 3 different
homebuilts that I looked at in the past 5 years. You're not going to get
that kind of a detailed description from viewing 20 feet away. Don't kid
yourself- builders are going to notice gross imperfections, and they're
really the only people whose opinion counts.
Incidentally- just saw a restored DC-3 at a local fly-in. You'd
swear the rivet lines were laid out by drunken epileptics!
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: JohnDRead@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:01 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
I had another thought re filling the rivets or fixing the crinkles.
Why not stand back about twenty feet then look at your handy work and
see if filling the rivets will matter a hoot!
John Read
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 6/29/2008 8:01:36 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
naumuk@alltel.net writes:
Paul-
You're in close to the same situation as me.I don't have gaps,
but the "Crinkles" left from trying to form the aluminum around the
fiberglass. You're also basically talking about the same stuff as I'm
thinking of using. It's Bondo with fiberglass threads mixed in. It'll
never come off, but once it sets up it's like steel.
I think I'm going to talk to a guy I went to high school with
and owns a body shop. He's only 10 minutes away so hopefully I can get
him to do the job without grinding my rivets off.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Mulwitz
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
Hi Bill,
I too am wondering how to deal with the small gaps left on my wing
tips. One thing I am considering is to build up the fiberglass with
epoxy laden flox. This is similar to filling with bondo or similar
stuff, but instead of adding a new layer of material it actually bonds
to the composite structure and becomes part of it. The flox will not be
as easy to make beautiful, but that is not my goal. I am more
interested in providing a good surface for the air flow.
I am also planning to do a similar job on the front of my engine
cowl. After installing both the top and bottom to my plane there are
gaps in the front corners that I want to smooth over. Epoxy and flox
should do the job with possible glass cloth in areas that need larger
fills.
It seems odd that the most difficult problems to fix on an "All
Metal" plane are actually fiberglass issues.
Paul
XL getting close
At 08:31 AM 6/29/2008, you wrote:
All-
I'm polishing 95%+ of my project, but don't see any way of
making the top skin/tip fiberglass rib juncture look good without a bit
of filler and paint. Not because of gaps, but "Crinkles".I've decided to
paint just the nose skin and tips of the outboards and stab.
I've seen projects that used regular Bondo and the damned
stuff cracks and comes out. Fiberfil sticks great, but you can't work it
like Bondo. I'm afraid of grinding off aluminum trying to smooth out the
Fiberfil.
Any alternatives, or should I just haul my outboards and
stab to a paint shop and let them deal with it? Not that that's a
guarantee- I remember a posting many moons ago where a paint shop ground
off the tops of the rivets while painting.
Bill Naumuk
Townville, Pa.
HDS Systems/Corvair 90%
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Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
John, John, John-
No homebuilder is going to say "Nice job" from 20 feet away.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
This discussion reminds me of an open house I attended several years
ago at Zenairs open house in Mexico MO.
Someone had flown in a 601HD, appeared to be scratch built, rivet
lines and sheet metal edges not particularly straight, paint job had
overspray in some areas.
Two gentlemen were standing about ten feet away observing the
workmanship, the first one was pointing out the shortcomings of the
workmanship, when the second one made the simple comment, "yeh but he
flew here and we drove!"
Nuff said.
R. Johnson
do not archive
Message 4
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Hi,
In my modest opinion, everything that's to be done by ourselves must be
as
perfectly as possible.
I have some rules. If not adding nocive weight or compromising the
performance, I'll spend all needed time to achieve the better look
possible.
Not only for the eyes of other people, but for my own satisfaction and
pride.
For me, blind holes of any size must be filled with light material, like
a
synth balsa filler, fineshed and painted. And plane rivets may not look
as
domestic common pop rivets.
And if there's an irregular shaped junction of two parts, like
composite/aluminium joints, I prefer to sand the edges and glue a strip
of
levelled rubber or synthetic foam to one sof the sides, specially in
cases
of different parts that can move slightly from each other during plane
operation or are submitted to vibration. Binding has better look than
filling in these cases, and makes it easier to disassemble.
But a metal plane may look like it. I say, we must be able to notice
the
panels and rivets. It=B4s the charm of the bird. So I won't go for
filling and
levelling everything to make it look like a composite one.
De: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Bill Naumuk
Enviada em: ter=E7a-feira, 1 de julho de 2008 11:09
Para: zenith-list@matronics.com
Assunto: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
John, John, John-
No homebuilder is going to say "Nice job" from 20 feet away. The
only
people who would wouldn't know an aileron from an elevator. Vanity or
pride,
take your pick.
The instinctive habit of builders zeroing in on the
fiberglass/aluminum
junctures is precisely why this discussion keeps recurring. I've seen
everything from Jeff Small's zero filler HDS with gorgeous seams to 1/2"
gaps plugged with Bondo that has fallen out and left, well, 1/2" gaps
flapping in the wind. The goal is to find a filler that's going to be
around
for the long run if you have to use it.
After seeing Mark Langford's KR2, filling rivet domes is going
overboard
in my opinion. Mark has arguably the most highly tweaked Corvair
conversion
around in his plane, but you'd swear the airframe was built as an
afterthought. Raw, unfilled, unpainted fiberglass. Think of exposed
rivet
domes over every square inch of flying surface, but he's 20 knots faster
than the cleanest 601 out there.
Think about it. I just gave a review of at least 3 different
homebuilts
that I looked at in the past 5 years. You're not going to get that kind
of a
detailed description from viewing 20 feet away. Don't kid yourself-
builders
are going to notice gross imperfections, and they're really the only
people
whose opinion counts.
Incidentally- just saw a restored DC-3 at a local fly-in. You'd
swear
the rivet lines were laid out by drunken epileptics!
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: JohnDRead@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:01 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
I had another thought re filling the rivets or fixing the crinkles. Why
not
stand back about twenty feet then look at your handy work and see if
filling
the rivets will matter a hoot!
John Read
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 6/29/2008 8:01:36 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
naumuk@alltel.net writes:
Paul-
You're in close to the same situation as me.I don't have gaps, but
the
"Crinkles" left from trying to form the aluminum around the fiberglass.
You're also basically talking about the same stuff as I'm thinking of
using.
It's Bondo with fiberglass threads mixed in. It'll never come off, but
once
it sets up it's like steel.
I think I'm going to talk to a guy I went to high school with and
owns a
body shop. He's only 10 minutes away so hopefully I can get him to do
the
job without grinding my rivets off.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Mulwitz <mailto:psm@att.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
Hi Bill,
I too am wondering how to deal with the small gaps left on my wing tips.
One thing I am considering is to build up the fiberglass with epoxy
laden
flox. This is similar to filling with bondo or similar stuff, but
instead
of adding a new layer of material it actually bonds to the composite
structure and becomes part of it. The flox will not be as easy to make
beautiful, but that is not my goal. I am more interested in providing a
good surface for the air flow.
I am also planning to do a similar job on the front of my engine cowl.
After installing both the top and bottom to my plane there are gaps in
the
front corners that I want to smooth over. Epoxy and flox should do the
job
with possible glass cloth in areas that need larger fills.
It seems odd that the most difficult problems to fix on an "All Metal"
plane
are actually fiberglass issues.
Paul
XL getting close
At 08:31 AM 6/29/2008, you wrote:
All-
I'm polishing 95%+ of my project, but don't see any way of making
the
top skin/tip fiberglass rib juncture look good without a bit of filler
and
paint. Not because of gaps, but "Crinkles".I've decided to paint just
the
nose skin and tips of the outboards and stab.
I've seen projects that used regular Bondo and the damned stuff
cracks
and comes out. Fiberfil sticks great, but you can't work it like Bondo.
I'm
afraid of grinding off aluminum trying to smooth out the Fiberfil.
Any alternatives, or should I just haul my outboards and stab to a
paint
shop and let them deal with it? Not that that's a guarantee- I remember
a
posting many moons ago where a paint shop ground off the tops of the
rivets
while painting.
Bill Naumuk
Townville, Pa.
HDS Systems/Corvair 90%
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
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troni
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Message 5
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I don't blame anyone for wanting their aircraft to look as nice as
practical, but it might help to have some perspective on the appearance
thing. Have you ever seen a Pietenpol or a Baby Ace, how about a
Volksplane? The RV guys are going to look down their noses at you even
if you gold plate your Zenith. The aformentioned planes often look like
they were built from scrap found behind the barn and old bedsheets, yet
fly and perform as intended. You chose a Zenith, filling and filing and
polishing will yield-- a Zenith! Zeniths are built with rivets that have
a hole in them.
----- Original Message -----
From: R. Johnson
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
John, John, John-
No homebuilder is going to say "Nice job" from 20 feet away.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
This discussion reminds me of an open house I attended several years
ago at Zenairs open house in Mexico MO.
Someone had flown in a 601HD, appeared to be scratch built, rivet
lines and sheet metal edges not particularly straight, paint job had
overspray in some areas.
Two gentlemen were standing about ten feet away observing the
workmanship, the first one was pointing out the shortcomings of the
workmanship, when the second one made the simple comment, "yeh but he
flew here and we drove!"
Nuff said.
R. Johnson
do not archive
Message 6
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Dave-
Agreed, but I've seen an absolutely beautiful natural mahogany
shellaced Piet. Looks like a piece of flying furniture.
I've been at this long enough to have accepted the fact that MY
project will fly on MY terms when it gets around to it.
Once again, vanity or pride.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave G.
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
I don't blame anyone for wanting their aircraft to look as nice as
practical, but it might help to have some perspective on the appearance
thing. Have you ever seen a Pietenpol or a Baby Ace, how about a
Volksplane? The RV guys are going to look down their noses at you even
if you gold plate your Zenith. The aformentioned planes often look like
they were built from scrap found behind the barn and old bedsheets, yet
fly and perform as intended. You chose a Zenith, filling and filing and
polishing will yield-- a Zenith! Zeniths are built with rivets that have
a hole in them.
----- Original Message -----
From: R. Johnson
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
John, John, John-
No homebuilder is going to say "Nice job" from 20 feet away.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
This discussion reminds me of an open house I attended several
years ago at Zenairs open house in Mexico MO.
Someone had flown in a 601HD, appeared to be scratch built, rivet
lines and sheet metal edges not particularly straight, paint job had
overspray in some areas.
Two gentlemen were standing about ten feet away observing the
workmanship, the first one was pointing out the shortcomings of the
workmanship, when the second one made the simple comment, "yeh but he
flew here and we drove!"
Nuff said.
R. Johnson
do not archive
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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Message 7
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That's the answer, Bill. You're right.
That's why we build a plane instead of buying an used Skyhawk.
Every finished project has a lot of our personality .
Espuny
De: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Bill Naumuk
Enviada em: ter=E7a-feira, 1 de julho de 2008 15:18
Para: zenith-list@matronics.com
Assunto: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
Dave-
Agreed, but I've seen an absolutely beautiful natural mahogany
shellaced
Piet. Looks like a piece of flying furniture.
I've been at this long enough to have accepted the fact that MY
project
will fly on MY terms when it gets around to it.
Once again, vanity or pride.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave <mailto:d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca> G.
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
I don't blame anyone for wanting their aircraft to look as nice as
practical, but it might help to have some perspective on the appearance
thing. Have you ever seen a Pietenpol or a Baby Ace, how about a
Volksplane?
The RV guys are going to look down their noses at you even if you gold
plate
your Zenith. The aformentioned planes often look like they were built
from
scrap found behind the barn and old bedsheets, yet fly and perform as
intended. You chose a Zenith, filling and filing and polishing will
yield--
a Zenith! Zeniths are built with rivets that have a hole in them.
----- Original Message -----
From: R. Johnson <mailto:entecrj@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
John, John, John-
No homebuilder is going to say "Nice job" from 20 feet away.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
This discussion reminds me of an open house I attended several years ago
at
Zenairs open house in Mexico MO.
Someone had flown in a 601HD, appeared to be scratch built, rivet lines
and
sheet metal edges not particularly straight, paint job had overspray in
some
areas.
Two gentlemen were standing about ten feet away observing the
workmanship,
the first one was pointing out the shortcomings of the workmanship, when
the
second one made the simple comment, "yeh but he flew here and we drove!"
Nuff said.
R. Johnson
do not archive
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href
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
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"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
_____
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Protegido Terra.
Atualizado em 01/07/2008
Message 8
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Francisco-
I sold my share of a a very nice 180HP Superhawk to build my
project and have many times (On nice flying days) regretted the
decision. All you can do is keep plugging on.
Most of us will only build once or twice in a lifetime. You might
as well set the highest standards for your workmanship instead of
spending your time thinking up excuses for crappy work down the line.
It's all up to the individual. You can survive in a cardboard box, or
you can live in a respectable owner built home.
I don't know how a question about a recommendation for fillers
mutated into this subject, but I've said my piece and now I'm going out
to work on my project. Long time listers know that I'm on vacation. I
haven't posted this many words in the past 6 months!
Good building, all!
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Francisco Espuny
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 2:49 PM
Subject: RES: Zenith-List: Filler
That's the answer, Bill. You're right.
That's why we build a plane instead of buying an used Skyhawk.
Every finished project has a lot of our personality .
Espuny
De: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Bill Naumuk
Enviada em: ter=E7a-feira, 1 de julho de 2008 15:18
Para: zenith-list@matronics.com
Assunto: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
Dave-
Agreed, but I've seen an absolutely beautiful natural mahogany
shellaced Piet. Looks like a piece of flying furniture.
I've been at this long enough to have accepted the fact that MY
project will fly on MY terms when it gets around to it.
Once again, vanity or pride.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave G.
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
I don't blame anyone for wanting their aircraft to look as nice as
practical, but it might help to have some perspective on the appearance
thing. Have you ever seen a Pietenpol or a Baby Ace, how about a
Volksplane? The RV guys are going to look down their noses at you even
if you gold plate your Zenith. The aformentioned planes often look like
they were built from scrap found behind the barn and old bedsheets, yet
fly and perform as intended. You chose a Zenith, filling and filing and
polishing will yield-- a Zenith! Zeniths are built with rivets that have
a hole in them.
----- Original Message -----
From: R. Johnson
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
John, John, John-
No homebuilder is going to say "Nice job" from 20 feet
away.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
This discussion reminds me of an open house I attended several
years ago at Zenairs open house in Mexico MO.
Someone had flown in a 601HD, appeared to be scratch built,
rivet lines and sheet metal edges not particularly straight, paint job
had overspray in some areas.
Two gentlemen were standing about ten feet away observing the
workmanship, the first one was pointing out the shortcomings of the
workmanship, when the second one made the simple comment, "yeh but he
flew here and we drove!"
Nuff said.
R. Johnson
do not archive
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Message 9
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Things could be worse. We could be talking about Scotchbrite or
structure failures.
As a "Seasoned" engineer, I can tell you that these issues over how
perfect to do things are at the root of all big projects in the real
world. The long term wisdom is that "Good enough" is
"Perfect". That means you must decide just how good is good enough
and move on from there.
For an amateur airplane builder, this is a very difficult
decision. We could choose to reach for perfection (filling rivet
stem holes) or do a very sloppy job that just gets our plane
airborne. For my money, the nice balance is to shoot for maximum
performance (which means minimum weight and good fit of parts) and
leave the building of "Show Planes" to others.
However, it has been said and I will second the motion - it is up to
each builder to make his own decisions in these and many other
things. That is the nice part of building stuff without a boss hounding you.
Paul
XL almost done
At 12:37 PM 7/1/2008, you wrote:
> I don't know how a question about a recommendation for fillers
> mutated into this subject, but I've said my piece and now I'm going
> out to work on my project.
Message 10
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My list for decisions.
#1 Safety
#2 Efficiency - The sooner I finish the sooner I go flying.
#3 Cost effective - The less I spend on the plane the more money I have
for fuel.
.
.
.
.
#1,000,001 - How someone else thinks it looks.
For me the airplane is a tool. I've never been one of the "ship in a
bottle" types.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN
"Hope for the best,
but prepare for the worst."
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "R. Johnson" <entecrj@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
John, John, John-
No homebuilder is going to say "Nice job" from 20 feet away.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
This discussion reminds me of an open house I attended several years ago
at Zenairs open house in Mexico MO.
Someone had flown in a 601HD, appeared to be scratch built, rivet lines
and sheet metal edges not particularly straight, paint job had overspray in
some areas.
Two gentlemen were standing about ten feet away observing the workmanship,
the first one was pointing out the shortcomings of the workmanship, when the
second one made the simple comment, "yeh but he flew here and we drove!"
Nuff said.
R. Johnson
do not archive
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG.
7:26 AM
Message 11
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to all
we have started our first "Conditional" inspections on our 601 XL's.
for those interested the cable tension dropped from 32 lbs. to about 16 ~17 lbs
on our 2 aircraft in the first year of operation. both elevator and aileron.
the rudder also dropped about half but we had them set at 25 Lbs.
the outside temperature was about the same. i attribute the drop to the cable stretching,
fittings seating, and a little wear. One aircraft has 49+ hrs and one
has 65+ hrs. we documented the original tension at 32#. we just reset the tension
with the same Tensiometer back to 32 lbs for both aircraft. be sure to
put it on your check list.
Bobby Paulk
N131BP
Message 12
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I think you've got your priorities set just about perfectly.
----- Original Message -----
From: "raymondj" <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
>
> My list for decisions.
>
> #1 Safety
>
> #2 Efficiency - The sooner I finish the sooner I go flying.
>
> #3 Cost effective - The less I spend on the plane the more money I have
> for fuel.
> .
> .
> .
> .
> #1,000,001 - How someone else thinks it looks.
>
> For me the airplane is a tool. I've never been one of the "ship in a
> bottle" types.
>
> Raymond Julian
> Kettle River, MN
>
> "Hope for the best,
> but prepare for the worst."
>
> do not archive
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "R. Johnson" <entecrj@sbcglobal.net>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 9:58 AM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
>
>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
>
>
> John, John, John-
> No homebuilder is going to say "Nice job" from 20 feet away.
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> This discussion reminds me of an open house I attended several years ago
> at Zenairs open house in Mexico MO.
>
> Someone had flown in a 601HD, appeared to be scratch built, rivet lines
> and sheet metal edges not particularly straight, paint job had overspray
> in some areas.
> Two gentlemen were standing about ten feet away observing the
> workmanship, the first one was pointing out the shortcomings of the
> workmanship, when the second one made the simple comment, "yeh but he flew
> here and we drove!"
>
> Nuff said.
>
> R. Johnson
>
> do not archive
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Checked by AVG.
> 7:26 AM
>
>
>
Message 13
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It would be a rare Piet, I'd love to see it (The Peit was one of my
first aviation fantasy's) and your 601 will be a rare and exceptional
Zenith. I'd never consider polishing that much ally, because the job
NEVER ends.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Naumuk
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
Dave-
Agreed, but I've seen an absolutely beautiful natural mahogany
shellaced Piet. Looks like a piece of flying furniture.
I've been at this long enough to have accepted the fact that MY
project will fly on MY terms when it gets around to it.
Once again, vanity or pride.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave G.
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
I don't blame anyone for wanting their aircraft to look as nice as
practical, but it might help to have some perspective on the appearance
thing. Have you ever seen a Pietenpol or a Baby Ace, how about a
Volksplane? The RV guys are going to look down their noses at you even
if you gold plate your Zenith. The aformentioned planes often look like
they were built from scrap found behind the barn and old bedsheets, yet
fly and perform as intended. You chose a Zenith, filling and filing and
polishing will yield-- a Zenith! Zeniths are built with rivets that have
a hole in them.
----- Original Message -----
From: R. Johnson
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Filler
John, John, John-
No homebuilder is going to say "Nice job" from 20 feet
away.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
This discussion reminds me of an open house I attended several
years ago at Zenairs open house in Mexico MO.
Someone had flown in a 601HD, appeared to be scratch built,
rivet lines and sheet metal edges not particularly straight, paint job
had overspray in some areas.
Two gentlemen were standing about ten feet away observing the
workmanship, the first one was pointing out the shortcomings of the
workmanship, when the second one made the simple comment, "yeh but he
flew here and we drove!"
Nuff said.
R. Johnson
do not archive
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Cable Tension |
Hi Bobby,
I may catch a bit of flack, but the cable settings in the 601 series,
even though specs say 32, you'll find that a bit high after several
years because the
structure will keep giving and stretching. I'd recommend you hold it to
between 20 and 25 lbs to avoid the unnecessary wear on the rudder pivot
bearings and
bending at the bellcrank mounts. It won't change the way your aircraft
flies at all.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
BobbyPaulk@comcast.net wrote:
>
> to all
> we have started our first "Conditional" inspections on our 601 XL's.
> for those interested the cable tension dropped from 32 lbs. to about 16 ~17 lbs
on our 2 aircraft in the first year of operation. both elevator and aileron.
the rudder also dropped about half but we had them set at 25 Lbs.
> the outside temperature was about the same. i attribute the drop to the cable
stretching, fittings seating, and a little wear. One aircraft has 49+ hrs and
one has 65+ hrs. we documented the original tension at 32#. we just reset the
tension with the same Tensiometer back to 32 lbs for both aircraft. be sure
to put it on your check list.
>
> Bobby Paulk
> N131BP
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | 601XL Fuselage DVD Part2 now available |
HomebuiltHELP is happy to announce that the 2nd part of Building your
CH601XL fuselage DVD video is now available!
This is the followup DVD that demonstrates building the 601XL fuselage
where Part 1 left off. Please visit
http://www.homebuilthelp.com/CH601XL/fuselage2.htm for more information
and ordering. We are hard at work on the remaining 601 components!
(Wings, tail, canopy)
Message 16
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| Subject: | Official Zenith-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Zenith-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The
complete Zenith-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Zenith-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm
************************************************************
******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
************************************************************
PLEASE READ. This document contains Zenith-List policies and information
for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Zenith-List policies will
minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Zenith-List
running smoothly for all of us.
******************************************
*** Quick Start Guide to List Features ***
******************************************
There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each
one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator
you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this
List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
****************************************
*** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe ***
****************************************
Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and
select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You
may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of
your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the
complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information.
The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption
process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request
was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed.
You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
until you receive the second conformation email message.
*****************************
*** How to Post a Message ***
*****************************
Send an email message to:
zenith-list@matronics.com
Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed
to the List.
*****************************************************
*** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post ***
*****************************************************
When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message
is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the
email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook
or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be
functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM
test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List:
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Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to
the List.
**************************************
*** Enclosure Support on the Lists ***
**************************************
Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets
is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these
are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the
content of enclosures.
These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics
Lists:
1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists.
2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists.
3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site.
4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives.
5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature.
6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed:
bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls
All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to
sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from
a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
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Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "zenith-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
****************************
*** List Digest Browser ***
****************************
An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
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*****************************************
*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
*****************************************
At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
**********************************************
***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the Zenith-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
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If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
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Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the Zenith-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/zenith-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Zenith-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Zenith-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* Zenith-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the Zenith-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* Zenith-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* Zenith-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* Zenith-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the Zenith-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* Zenith-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the Zenith-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the Zenith-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Zenith
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
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Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
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Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
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value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
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The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
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If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
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Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Zenith-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Zenith-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Zenith-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Zenith-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Zenith-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
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| Subject: | Official Zenith-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Zenith-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Zenith-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Zenith-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Zenith-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Zenith-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Zenith-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Zenith-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Zenith-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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