---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 08/01/08: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:47 AM - 601 vs 650 (Joe Scheibinger) 2. 07:50 AM - new engine (ernie) 3. 09:10 AM - Re: new engine (Gig Giacona) 4. 09:12 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 07/31/08 (donr@sensenichprop.com) 5. 09:37 AM - Re: new engine (MaxNr@aol.com) 6. 09:51 AM - Re: New Panel Design (Maarten Versteeg) 7. 10:02 AM - Re: new engine (Gig Giacona) 8. 11:14 AM - Re: Re: new engine (Juan Vega) 9. 11:19 AM - Re: new engine (Gig Giacona) 10. 02:25 PM - Re: Re: new engine (Jimbo) 11. 03:26 PM - Re: Re: new engine (ernie) 12. 03:46 PM - Re: taildragger (dalemed) 13. 04:37 PM - Re: Taildraggers (Dirk Zahtilla) 14. 05:05 PM - Re: Re: Taildraggers (Roger & Lina Hill) 15. 05:25 PM - Re: Re: new engine (n801bh@netzero.com) 16. 07:26 PM - Back home from Africa...new projects and catching up.... (william Clapp) 17. 09:54 PM - Builders dinner photos (Jon Croke) 18. 11:05 PM - Official Zenith-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 19. 11:09 PM - Official Zenith-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:08 AM PST US From: "Joe Scheibinger" Subject: Zenith-List: 601 vs 650 The thickness of the rear spar attachment has been thickened to what look like somewhere between .090 to .125 on the 650 out here on the field in Oshkosh. Also, you will not loose any baggage room if you retro-fit the new 650 canopy to your 601. Sabastian said you can keep your old baggage compartment bulkhead in place. The nice part is you can put in the new bulkhead in front of the old one and install a BRS chute! If you want some pictures send me an E-mail and I will forward them to you. I don't know how to post pictures so if someone out there wants to post them please do. Joe in Oshkosh. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:09 AM PST US From: ernie Subject: Zenith-List: new engine Anyone at Oshkosh see this? LYCOMING TO OFFER LSA ENGINE Lycoming is entering the light sport aircraft (LSA) arena. At Oshkosh the company unveiled a new fuel-injected engine, derived from a model well known to general aviation. Dubbed the IO-233-LSA, the four-cylinder engine produces 100 hp at 2,400 rpm and has a 2,400-hour TBO. The engine is rooted in the familiar 235-model line, but the company took several steps to save weight with lighter parts. The engine has a dry weight of 200 to 210 pounds and burns 5.25 gph at 75 percent power. It comes standard with dual electronic spark ignition, throttle body fuel injection, and a lightweight starter and alternator. It can run on ethanol-free unleaded fuel. Lycoming expects to bring the engine to market next year under the ASTM (American Society of Testing and Materials) standards that govern the LSA industry. It did not announce ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:20 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: new engine From: "Gig Giacona" I saw story and thought "Great, now can they just guarantee that we will be able to find ethanol-free unleaded fuel." Since it isn't going through the regular FAA certification process it should help keep the price down unless Lyc just doesn't know how to price an engine below $25k. ernieth(at)gmail.com wrote: > Anyone at Oshkosh see this? > > LYCOMING TO OFFER LSA ENGINE > Lycoming is entering the light sport aircraft (LSA) arena. At Oshkosh > the company unveiled a new fuel-injected engine, derived from a model > well known to general aviation. Dubbed the IO-233-LSA, the > four-cylinder engine produces 100 hp at 2,400 rpm and has a 2,400-hour > TBO. The engine is rooted in the familiar 235-model line, but the > company took several steps to save weight with lighter parts. The > engine has a dry weight of 200 to 210 pounds and burns 5.25 gph at 75 > percent power. It comes standard with dual electronic spark ignition, > throttle body fuel injection, and a lightweight starter and > alternator. It can run on ethanol-free unleaded fuel. Lycoming expects > to bring the engine to market next year under the ASTM (American > Society of Testing and Materials) standards that govern the LSA > industry. It did not announce -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196013#196013 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:40 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 07/31/08 From: donr@sensenichprop.com -----Original Message----- From: Zenith-List Digest Server Subject: Zenith-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 07/31/08 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete Zenith-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. 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HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 08-07-31&Archive=Zenith Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 08-07-31&Archive=Zenith =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 07/31/08: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:32 AM - 601 vs 650 (dougsire) 2. 05:40 AM - Re: taildragger (Roger & Lina Hill) 3. 06:40 AM - Re: New Panel Design (annken100) 4. 07:33 AM - 1 Last Post-open to critizism both constructive & otherw (Sabrina) 5. 08:07 AM - Re: Re: New Panel Design (Juan Vega) 6. 08:26 AM - Re: 1 Last Post-open to critizism both constructive & otherw (Paul Mulwitz) 7. 09:05 AM - Re: 1 Last Post-open to critizism both constructive & otherw (Juan Vega) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:30 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: 601 vs 650 From: "dougsire" I finished up my 3 day visit to Airventure and this is what I gather as to the differences and reasons for the new 650 model: Reasons: -They want to have part commonality across all distribution channels (Zenith, AMD) -Sometimes you just need to introduce a new model to keep interest going Similarities and differences. The 650 is the 601 with the following differences (might be more): -New rudder. It has more of an angle and just looks better. No one had a better explanation here except for looks. The nose skin and nose rib are larger and the bottom angle is different so can't really redo a current rudder. -Canopy. No brainer here. It looks nicer, has a better locking mechanism, has greater headroom, is easier to build and has rollover protection. A retro kit will be available for 601s. -Angle of incidence on wing has changed. They have slighltly lowered the rear spar to provide a lower nose position and better visibility. Roger said this was what the Europeans were used to so they decided to change it. No performance reasons were indicated. Otherwise the wing is the same. -Additional fuselage bracing. Sebastian said there was some additional bracing on the rear fuselage. -Possible aileron balancing. Sebastian also indicated that they may add aileron balancing which would consist of an extra rib added at the end of the aileron with the balance inside the wing (not like Brazilian one). -There may well be other small changes but is still the same basic structure. It is interesting that the "loose cable" theory is now the official company line. Doug Sire 601 XL Billings, MT Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195848#195848 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:40:26 AM PST US From: "Roger & Lina Hill" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: taildragger Jim; Mostly it impacts your wallet. Have you ever tried to sell a tail dragger in this tri-gear world? I would say it would knock 25% of the value of the plane, and reduce your interested buyers by 80% Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Belcher Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 5:21 PM Subject: Zenith-List: taildragger I checked the archives, and perhaps the questions were just asked a long time ago, because I did not find an answer. What weight impact does going from the nose wheel to the tail dragger have? How difficult is the tail wheel configuration to fly/land when compared to say, a J3? Does anyone have a rough guess as to how many tail wheel versions have been built vs the nose wheel? -- =========================================== Jim B Belcher BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science A&P/IA =========================================== ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:21 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Panel Design From: "annken100" Dan, The next gen dynon units are most impressive. I stop by the dynon booth here at OSH daily to gawk at them. Of course, you guys suck because I have already purchased my dynon gear already!! In comparison to the next gen stuff my panel all of a sudden looks archaic. I've included a picture below. It looks like a major avionics upgrade is in my plane's future and its not even finished yet!! Ken Pavlou 601XL / Corvair -------- 601 XL / Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195856#195856 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0274_211.jpg ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:03 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: 1 Last Post-open to critizism both constructive & otherw From: "Sabrina" The decalage change still bothers me... I increased the decalage, be it aerodynamic or geometric, by pitching my horizontal stabilizer down two degrees. Zenith has now increased the decalage by lowering the rear of the wing and maintaining the status quo on the horizontal stabilizer. I am told, second hand, this is done without ANY change to the main spar set angle (that is why I wanted to compare plans.) Both the 650 and Sabrina are inherently more stable than the 601 with this increased decalage giving it the ability to dampen larger vibrations/oscillations. We both loose performance. The 601 is more efficient. Correct? With a factory O-200A engine mount, the engine mount aligns the center of trust with the main longerons. Does the twisting of the 650 main spar (if indeed it remains as speced in the 601 plans) add strength to the structure by pre-loading it? I lowered the leading edge of the my horizontal stabilizer to better balance the airplane so will it fly level without trim (heavy engine) compared to the line of thrust and main longerons. The added benefit was additional stability. By lowering the rear spar, the aircraft will fly more nose down. To fly level, the 650, with a 601 engine mount, no longer flies along its line of thrust or main longerons. Correct? Comments? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195862#195862 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/decalage_407.jpg ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:02 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New Panel Design Bout the nicest panel I have seen so far! Juan -----Original Message----- >From: annken100 >Sent: Jul 31, 2008 9:37 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Panel Design > > >Dan, > >The next gen dynon units are most impressive. I stop by the dynon booth here at OSH daily to gawk at them. Of course, you guys suck because I have already purchased my dynon gear already!! In comparison to the next gen stuff my panel all of a sudden looks archaic. I've included a picture below. It looks like a major avionics upgrade is in my plane's future and its not even finished yet!! > >Ken Pavlou > >601XL / Corvair > >-------- >601 XL / Corvair > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195856#195856 > > >Attachments: > >http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0274_211.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:42 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 1 Last Post-open to critizism both constructive & otherw Hi Sabrina, I agree with your analysis and conclusions. By lowering the trailing edge ZAC has not only increased the decalage, they have also changed the wing incidence angle as compared to the fuselage. I think both approaches (yours and theirs) add a bit to the pitch stability compared to the original design. From the comments posted by others, I think ZAC's goal was not to increase the stability but rather to increase the forward visibility. By changing the incidence they have made a bigger impact on the airspeed capability of the plane. The fuselage (or wing, depending on how you hold your head) has more parasitic drag because of the incidence change. In short, I think you have traded stability for drag while they have traded forward visibility and stability for even more drag. I don't know what happens if they align the engine thrust with the longerons rather than the wing. I guess throttle changes will have more impact on elevator trim. I have no opinion on your pre-loading point with regard to the spar angle. However, I still think (as I posted a few days ago) they are hoping the bad publicity associated with the XL will all go away because they changed the model name. Paul XL getting close At 07:29 AM 7/31/2008, you wrote: >The decalage change still bothers me... > >I increased the decalage, be it aerodynamic or geometric, by >pitching my horizontal stabilizer down two degrees. > >Zenith has now increased the decalage by lowering the rear of the >wing and maintaining the status quo on the horizontal stabilizer. I >am told, second hand, this is done without ANY change to the main >spar set angle (that is why I wanted to compare plans.) > >Both the 650 and Sabrina are inherently more stable than the 601 >with this increased decalage giving it the ability to dampen larger >vibrations/oscillations. We both loose performance. The 601 is >more efficient. Correct? > >With a factory O-200A engine mount, the engine mount aligns the >center of trust with the main longerons. > >Does the twisting of the 650 main spar (if indeed it remains as >speced in the 601 plans) add strength to the structure by pre-loading it? > >I lowered the leading edge of the my horizontal stabilizer to better >balance the airplane so will it fly level without trim (heavy >engine) compared to the line of thrust and main longerons. The >added benefit was additional stability. > >By lowering the rear spar, the aircraft will fly more nose >down. To fly level, the 650, with a 601 engine mount, no longer >flies along its line of thrust or main longerons. Correct? > >Comments? ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:05:46 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 1 Last Post-open to critizism both constructive & otherw I would just ask AMD if they changed the angle of incidence to the horizontal stab, the engine mount as well as the wing? If they changed the stab and wing, the speed would not vary significantly. Engine mount would be insignificant at torque and speeds we fly,You could probably change the angle enough with a few well placed washers. You could do all three to the 601. I disagree with the thought the "Bad name" of the 601 would go away. What bad name? Some guys flew it out of spec so blame it on the plane? Interesting how we always blame the machines not the men. Juan >From: Paul Mulwitz >Sent: Jul 31, 2008 11:22 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 1 Last Post-open to critizism both constructive & otherw > > >Hi Sabrina, > >I agree with your analysis and conclusions. > >By lowering the trailing edge ZAC has not only increased the >decalage, they have also changed the wing incidence angle as compared >to the fuselage. I think both approaches (yours and theirs) add a >bit to the pitch stability compared to the original design. > > From the comments posted by others, I think ZAC's goal was not to >increase the stability but rather to increase the forward >visibility. By changing the incidence they have made a bigger impact >on the airspeed capability of the plane. The fuselage (or wing, >depending on how you hold your head) has more parasitic drag because >of the incidence change. > >In short, I think you have traded stability for drag while they have >traded forward visibility and stability for even more drag. > >I don't know what happens if they align the engine thrust with the >longerons rather than the wing. I guess throttle changes will have >more impact on elevator trim. I have no opinion on your pre-loading >point with regard to the spar angle. > >However, I still think (as I posted a few days ago) they are hoping >the bad publicity associated with the XL will all go away because >they changed the model name. > >Paul >XL getting close > > >At 07:29 AM 7/31/2008, you wrote: >>The decalage change still bothers me... >> >>I increased the decalage, be it aerodynamic or geometric, by >>pitching my horizontal stabilizer down two degrees. >> >>Zenith has now increased the decalage by lowering the rear of the >>wing and maintaining the status quo on the horizontal stabilizer. I >>am told, second hand, this is done without ANY change to the main >>spar set angle (that is why I wanted to compare plans.) >> >>Both the 650 and Sabrina are inherently more stable than the 601 >>with this increased decalage giving it the ability to dampen larger >>vibrations/oscillations. We both loose performance. The 601 is >>more efficient. Correct? >> >>With a factory O-200A engine mount, the engine mount aligns the >>center of trust with the main longerons. >> >>Does the twisting of the 650 main spar (if indeed it remains as >>speced in the 601 plans) add strength to the structure by pre-loading it? >> >>I lowered the leading edge of the my horizontal stabilizer to better >>balance the airplane so will it fly level without trim (heavy >>engine) compared to the line of thrust and main longerons. The >>added benefit was additional stability. >> >>By lowering the rear spar, the aircraft will fly more nose >>down. To fly level, the 650, with a 601 engine mount, no longer >>flies along its line of thrust or main longerons. Correct? >> >>Comments? > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:37:34 AM PST US From: MaxNr@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: RE: new engine This would be nice if it would bolt up to existing Dyna-Focal mounts. BTW, is ethanol-free non-leaded fuel still available? RTD ************** Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:51:00 AM PST US From: Maarten Versteeg Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Panel Design Hello Ken, Sure you can always find fancier panels, but your panel would be a huge improvement over the panels I find in the 30 year old planes I regularly rent. The more advanced Dynon panels might even invite to flight into riskier environments beyond the basic VFR. But it certainly is nice that they combined the navigation (map) display in their system, but you loose the redundancy of map and EFIS. When I looked at your panel picture I was actually surprised, I am only just about to start the fuselage and here suddenly was my current draft panel concept already in real life. Do you have higher resolution pictures that you would be willing to share (or email me personally). Two other questions, what radio did you decide upon and is the hole on the right of the Dynon for the announced autopilot control panel? Regards, Maarten, plans building 601xl, about to finish the 2nd wing > > Dan, > > The next gen dynon units are most impressive. I stop by the dynon booth here at > OSH daily to gawk at them. Of course, you guys suck because I have already > purchased my dynon gear already!! In comparison to the next gen stuff my panel > all of a sudden looks archaic. I've included a picture below. It looks like > a major avionics upgrade is in my plane's future and its not even finished yet!! > > Ken Pavlou > > 601XL / Corvair ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:02:48 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: new engine From: "Gig Giacona" rtdin wrote: > This would be nice if it would bolt up to existing Dyna-Focal mounts. BTW, is ethanol-free non-leaded fuel still available? > It is in South Arkansas but not in North Arkansas. In Central Arkansas it seems to be a hit or miss thing and depends where they get their gas from. For the record I've made 4 trips in the past couple of months all the way (N-S) across the state on the same highways with the cruise control ON pretty much the whole way. I fill up here with real gas and drive to Blytheville and then fill up there with ethanol laced stuff. On all four trips my mileage has been a little over 22mpg with real gas and a little less than 20mpg with ethanol. This seems to prove to me that ethanol is providing 10% less power gas. So think about that as you are filling up at high DA with corn syrup....I mean Ethanol. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196022#196022 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:14:36 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: new engine Gig, did you find that the engine ran leaner as well,? I found that on mine so fuel buen was high due to that as well. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Gig Giacona >Sent: Aug 1, 2008 12:59 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: new engine > > > >rtdin wrote: >> This would be nice if it would bolt up to existing Dyna-Focal mounts. BTW, is ethanol-free non-leaded fuel still available? >> > > >It is in South Arkansas but not in North Arkansas. In Central Arkansas it seems to be a hit or miss thing and depends where they get their gas from. > >For the record I've made 4 trips in the past couple of months all the way (N-S) across the state on the same highways with the cruise control ON pretty much the whole way. I fill up here with real gas and drive to Blytheville and then fill up there with ethanol laced stuff. On all four trips my mileage has been a little over 22mpg with real gas and a little less than 20mpg with ethanol. > >This seems to prove to me that ethanol is providing 10% less power gas. So think about that as you are filling up at high DA with corn syrup....I mean Ethanol. > >-------- >W.R. "Gig" Giacona >601XL Under Construction >See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196022#196022 > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:19:46 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: new engine From: "Gig Giacona" I have no idea how lean my truck's engine was leaning. All I know is that it burned 10% more of stuff that I paid the same $4.10 for when it had ethanol. amyvega2005(at)earthlink. wrote: > Gig, > did you find that the engine ran leaner as well,? I found that on mine so fuel buen was high due to that as well. > > Juan > > -- -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196037#196037 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:10 PM PST US From: Jimbo Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: new engine Try and buy one for your project at any price. They, like TCM, are after the S-LSA OEM market, not homebuilders. I tried several times to get a price quote on a new 0-200 from TCM and from their major distributors. They never get back to me, and its not that easy to even find someone at these companies willing to talk to you. --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Gig Giacona wrote: From: Gig Giacona Subject: Zenith-List: Re: new engine I saw story and thought "Great, now can they just guarantee that we will be able to find ethanol-free unleaded fuel." Since it isn't going through the regular FAA certification process it should help keep the price down unless Lyc just doesn't know how to price an engine below $25k. ernieth(at)gmail.com wrote: > Anyone at Oshkosh see this? > > LYCOMING TO OFFER LSA ENGINE > Lycoming is entering the light sport aircraft (LSA) arena. At Oshkosh > the company unveiled a new fuel-injected engine, derived from a model > well known to general aviation. Dubbed the IO-233-LSA, the > four-cylinder engine produces 100 hp at 2,400 rpm and has a 2,400-hour > TBO. The engine is rooted in the familiar 235-model line, but the > company took several steps to save weight with lighter parts. The > engine has a dry weight of 200 to 210 pounds and burns 5.25 gph at 75 > percent power. It comes standard with dual electronic spark ignition, > throttle body fuel injection, and a lightweight starter and > alternator. It can run on ethanol-free unleaded fuel. Lycoming expects > to bring the engine to market next year under the ASTM (American > Society of Testing and Materials) standards that govern the LSA > industry. It did not announce -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196013#196013 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:57 PM PST US From: ernie Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: new engine hi At sun and fun I got that feeling from continental. I told the lycoming sales booth that I was ignored. They seemed a lot more interested in talking to the lone builder E On 8/1/08, Jimbo wrote: > Try and buy one for your project at any price. They, like TCM, are after the > S-LSA OEM market, not homebuilders. I tried several times to get a price > quote on a new 0-200 from TCM and from their major distributors. They never > get back to me, and its not that easy to even find someone at these > companies willing to talk to you. > > --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Gig Giacona wrote: > From: Gig Giacona > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: new engine > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 9:07 AM > > > > I saw story and thought "Great, now can they just guarantee that we will > be able to find ethanol-free unleaded fuel." > > Since it isn't going through the regular FAA certification process it > should help keep the price down unless Lyc just doesn't know how to price an > engine below $25k. > > > ernieth(at)gmail.com wrote: >> Anyone at Oshkosh see this? >> >> LYCOMING TO OFFER LSA ENGINE >> Lycoming is entering the light sport aircraft (LSA) arena. At Oshkosh >> the company unveiled a new fuel-injected engine, derived from a model >> well known to general aviation. Dubbed the IO-233-LSA, the >> four-cylinder engine produces 100 hp at 2,400 rpm and has a 2,400-hour >> TBO. The engine is rooted in the familiar 235-model line, but the >> company took several steps to save weight with lighter parts. The >> engine has a dry weight of 200 to 210 pounds and burns 5.25 gph at 75 >> percent power. It comes standard with dual electronic spark ignition, >> throttle body fuel injection, and a lightweight starter and >> alternator. It can run on ethanol-free unleaded fuel. Lycoming expects >> to bring the engine to market next year under the ASTM (American >> Society of Testing and Materials) standards that govern the LSA >> industry. It did not announce > > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196013#196013 > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:16 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: taildragger From: "dalemed" z601(at)anemicaardvark.co wrote: > I checked the archives, and perhaps the questions were just asked a long time > ago, because I did not find an answer. > > What weight impact does going from the nose wheel to the tail dragger have? > How difficult is the tail wheel configuration to fly/land when compared to > say, a J3? Does anyone have a rough guess as to how many tail wheel versions > have been built vs the nose wheel? > -- > ============================================ > Jim B Belcher > BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science > A&P/IA > ============================================ Jim, I'm glad you asked this question and I hope you get some answers. I'm building a 601XL and, at this time, I'm planning on building the TD version. I think it looks better. Also, I've never owned anything but taildraggers (a Taylorcraft BC12D, Cessna 140 and currently a Cessna 170). I talked to a guy at the Zenith dinner at Oshkosh who recently flew his 601 TD for the first time. He says I should consider getting some time in a short coupled TD (like a Pitts!!) before flying my 601. He says the rudder is much more sensitive on the the 601 than on the planes I've been flying. He thinks this is partly due to the fact that the rudder peddles don't have the loading of the nose wheel so it takes very little pressure on the peddles to deflect the rudder. I hope we can get some comments from TD flyers on this forum. Dale -------- Dale Flying Cessna 170B Building Zenith 601XL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196086#196086 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:24 PM PST US From: "Dirk Zahtilla" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Taildraggers I'm also just starting a 601XL . I'm doing a taildragger and too bad if the resale value suffers. I'm also going to dimple the rivet holes for true flush riveting, and I'll use a Lyc 0235. If I'm building a plane for me, why not go for the gusto! Z ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:05:50 PM PST US From: "Roger & Lina Hill" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Taildraggers Z; Dimple the 601XL huh? Like my Sonerai I built? Why not go for the gusto? Ya sure, it looks better, but take 200% longer to build the dang thing.. Just pop man, pop fast and go flying sooner. Dimples are for RV-6ses and war birds.. Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dirk Zahtilla Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 6:34 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Taildraggers I'm also just starting a 601XL . I'm doing a taildragger and too bad if the resale value suffers. I'm also going to dimple the rivet holes for true flush riveting, and I'll use a Lyc 0235. If I'm building a plane for me, why not go for the gusto! Z ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:25:09 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: new engine This one of my main compliants with the "Experimental Aircraft Assoc". I f they allow a vendor to display at their Airventure they must require t he same vendor to make all products available to the homebuilder. They w ould have little problem doing this. Just add a clause in the contract a nyone must sign to have a booth at OSH. If they don't want to sell to ho mebuilders then they can display and sell to the people at the "Certifie d Aircraft Assoc" gathering.... Hmmm Whats that ? Their is no Certified Aircraft Assoc ?? do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com Lifetime EAA member.... -- ernie wrote: hi At sun and fun I got that feeling from continental. I told the lycoming sales booth that I was ignored. They seemed a lot more interested in talking to the lone builder E On 8/1/08, Jimbo wrote: > Try and buy one for your project at any price. They, like TCM, are aft er the > S-LSA OEM market, not homebuilders. I tried several times to get a pri ce > quote on a new 0-200 from TCM and from their major distributors. They never > get back to me, and its not that easy to even find someone at these > companies willing to talk to you. > > --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Gig Giacona wrote: > From: Gig Giacona > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: new engine > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 9:07 AM > > > > I saw story and thought "Great, now can they just guarantee that we wi ll > be able to find ethanol-free unleaded fuel." > > Since it isn't going through the regular FAA certification process it > should help keep the price down unless Lyc just doesn't know how to pr ice an > engine below $25k. > > > ernieth(at)gmail.com wrote: >> Anyone at Oshkosh see this? >> >> LYCOMING TO OFFER LSA ENGINE >> Lycoming is entering the light sport aircraft (LSA) arena. At Oshkosh >> the company unveiled a new fuel-injected engine, derived from a model >> well known to general aviation. Dubbed the IO-233-LSA, the >> four-cylinder engine produces 100 hp at 2,400 rpm and has a 2,400-hou r >> TBO. The engine is rooted in the familiar 235-model line, but the >> company took several steps to save weight with lighter parts. The >> engine has a dry weight of 200 to 210 pounds and burns 5.25 gph at 75 >> percent power. It comes standard with dual electronic spark ignition, >> throttle body fuel injection, and a lightweight starter and >> alternator. It can run on ethanol-free unleaded fuel. Lycoming expect s >> to bring the engine to market next year under the ASTM (American >> Society of Testing and Materials) standards that govern the LSA >> industry. It did not announce > > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196013#196013 > > ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ____________________________________________________________ Own your own business. Click here to start making money owning your own franchise. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/Ioyw6i4vFkRulaCmV25RD2bvm yX00irG3wu9n3bBRyTI3KVAaMx0lM/ ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:52 PM PST US From: william Clapp Subject: Zenith-List: Back home from Africa...new projects and catching up.... Hello folks.-- After a few weeks gone it is nice to be back home.- I have an update started on my website billclapp.com about the trip to Mozamb ique and some of the goings on.- I have the final week of the trip still to finish and get on the web with some new happenings and friends.- Will try to get that done this weekend.- I got to meet some KR guys and had a real good time working on the damaged 210.- Check out the info and photos ... - Some new projects are being worked on while at home.- I currently have th e engine out of the KR for some updates.- I feel like I've been having wi thdrawl syptoms since I haven't flown N41768 for over a month.- I didn,t have time for Oshkosh this year with my trip and all but sure plan to be at the KR Gathering (September).-- Have lots of "mom" duties to take care of at home with school starting on Monday. - I sure hope fun was had by all in Oshkosh.- - Bill Bill Clapp - KR2S builder and pilot Valdosta GA www.billclapp.com=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:31 PM PST US From: "Jon Croke" Subject: Zenith-List: Builders dinner photos Pictures from Thursday's Zenith builders dinner on display at www.zenair.org ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:11 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith-List: Official Zenith-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Zenith-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete Zenith-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Zenith-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains Zenith-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Zenith-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Zenith-List running smoothly for all of us. ****************************************** *** Quick Start Guide to List Features *** ****************************************** There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List **************************************** *** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe *** **************************************** Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information. The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed. You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request. The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post until you receive the second conformation email message. ***************************** *** How to Post a Message *** ***************************** Send an email message to: zenith-list@matronics.com Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed to the List. ***************************************************** *** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post *** ***************************************************** When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor. If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that gets posted to the Lists. Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ************************************** *** Enclosure Support on the Lists *** ************************************** Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the content of enclosures. These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics Lists: 1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists. 2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists. 3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site. 4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives. 5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature. 6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed: bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk. 7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down the process of posting the message !! Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "zenith-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the Zenith-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the Zenith-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/zenith-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Zenith-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Zenith-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * Zenith-List.FAQ - Latest version of the Zenith-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * Zenith-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * Zenith-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * Zenith-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the Zenith-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Zenith-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Zenith-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Zenith-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Zenith ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Zenith-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Zenith-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Zenith-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Zenith-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Zenith-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:10 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith-List: Official Zenith-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Zenith-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Zenith-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Zenith-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Zenith-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Zenith-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Zenith-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Zenith-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Zenith-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.