Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:16 AM - Re: Flying Canopy open photos!!!!! (Gary Ray)
2. 05:59 AM - Re: Crash (kmccune)
3. 06:42 AM - Re: Crash (jaybannist@cs.com)
4. 07:03 AM - Re: Crash (Dave G.)
5. 07:34 AM - Re: Crash (Bryan Martin)
6. 08:08 AM - Re: Crash (Jay Maynard)
7. 08:47 AM - Crash- final (Bill Naumuk)
8. 08:50 AM - Re: Crash (jaybannist@cs.com)
9. 09:11 AM - Re: Crash (jaybannist@cs.com)
10. 09:27 AM - Re: Flying Canopy open photos!!!!! (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
11. 09:31 AM - Crash (jaybannist@cs.com)
12. 09:32 AM - Re: Crash (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
13. 09:37 AM - Re: Flying Canopy open photos!!!!! (jaybannist@cs.com)
14. 09:39 AM - Re: Crash (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
15. 09:46 AM - Re: Flying Canopy open photos!!!!! (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
16. 10:02 AM - Re: Crash (Debo Cox)
17. 10:02 AM - Re: Crash (Joe Scheibinger)
18. 10:36 AM - Re: Re: Crash (Jay Maynard)
19. 11:21 AM - Re: Flying Canopy open photos!!!!! (steve)
20. 12:08 PM - Re: Crash (Roger & Lina Hill)
21. 12:12 PM - Re: Crash (Roger & Lina Hill)
22. 01:39 PM - Thoughts on what to do in Canopy OPen situation (Juan Vega)
23. 01:51 PM - Re: Flying Canopy open photos!!!!! (Gig Giacona)
24. 02:24 PM - Re: Crash (Bryan Martin)
25. 07:31 PM - Re: Crash (Scott Thatcher)
26. 08:23 PM - Jab 3300 airbox location (chris Sinfield)
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| Subject: | Re: Flying Canopy open photos!!!!! |
Jeff
Those are amazing photos. Can you elaborate on the flight
configuration. ie full power, no flaps, and what the pilot reported
with respect to handling etc.
It is worthy of an entry into the pilots handbook if this condition
should ever happen.
Any known differences between Jay's experience and this would be useful.
Thank goodness that Jay and friend were OK.
Gary Ray
----- Original Message -----
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 12:07 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Flying Canopy open photos!!!!!
I found the pics of the canopy being open in flight and posted them to
my website.
http://project601xl.com/Canopy_Open.html
Enjoy
Jeff
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WOW, glad you guys are OK.
Kevin
--------
Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198906#198906
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Jeff,
The canopy had EVERYTHING to do with the crash. I have heard that the
601 is docile and controllable with the canopy up. Post all the
pictures you want; but this 601 was NOT controllable, at least in
pitch. I was able to make a gentile turn toward the "landing" site,
but both me and the other pilot could NOT get the nose up to a landing
configuration. When the canopy went up, it was almost out of reach and
we absolutely could not pull it down to more than about 30 deg. We did
noit "decide" to land. We could not keep it from going down. In our
situation, we may have "forgotten" to do several things, but with two
hands pulling mightily on the canopy and the other two pulling mightily
on the stick, we had no options as to what else to do. The wind was
unbelievable. The headset and my cap blew off my head. We were
fighting for our very lives. As they say, you just had to be there".
Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 9:25 pm
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Crash
Jay,
First let me sayI'm glad both of you are ok and I am not questioning
you in any way I am just trying to understand what happened.
What I am trying to understand is what the canopy being open had to do
with
the crash. I have pictures of a 601xl flying with the canopy open and
it can20and
will fly in that situation. Did you just decide to land or forget to re
apply
power? As soon as I get to the airport I will take some pics of a latch
Ben made
for his 601xl and before flight he can insure the canopy is locked. I
hope that
Zenith didn't create a brand new problem for the brand new airplane. I
was going
to modify the canopy and latch system for the one I am buildingbut
might
reconsider that now in light of the new information.
My other question is if the new canopy can withstand the wind forces on
the
rear solid mountedpiece or will it depart the aircraft if the canopy
pops
open. Has this been tested open?
I will post the pics of a flying 601 with canopy open as soon as I find
them.
Jeff
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Jay, don't worry about the clowns who think they know better than you what
could/should have been done. It's pointless.
Congratulations on getting to the ground and walking away!! Major
accomplishment, well done!
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Did you leave the power off for the entire duration of the incident or
did you try to reapply power at some point? It seems that some prop
wash flowing over the tail might have provided more pitch control, if
you had the time to try it. I'm not trying to criticize or second
guess, but if i ever find myself in a similar situation, it would be
good to at least know what didn't work for someone else.
I know how quick you can run out of options in such a situation, I
just recently had a close call myself involving a forced landing after
a power failure. I was lucky to be very near an airport at the time
and put it down on the runway.
On Aug 16, 2008, at 9:41 AM, jaybannist@cs.com wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>
> The canopy had EVERYTHING to do with the crash. I have heard that
> the 601 is docile and controllable with the canopy up. Post all the
> pictures you want; but this 601
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
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I'm not about to second-guess your decisions and actions. You were there,
and I wasn't. I'm just looking for information before I go out to the
airport and start looking at N55ZC to see what can be added.
On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 06:28:42PM -0400, jaybannist@cs.com wrote:
> I noticed that the right hand canopy latch had come loose and the rail was
> up about 2 inches.
At this point, the left latch wasn't loose, I assume. The new latch can be
visually verified to be latched quite easily. Did you or Dennis look before
takeoff?
I'm at a loss to explain how one side could be unlatched. I've tried in my
airplane to latch just one side and not engage the hook on the bolt on the
other, and just wasn't able to without it being obvious there was a problem.
> I pointed it out to Dennis. We were in sight of a private airfield, but
> Dennis decided he was going to re-latch it - in the air!
This is probably why the AMD POH says to fly the airplane and make a normal
landing, then fix it on the ground.
> In doing so, the latch on my side came loose and the canopy immediately
> shot up to about 50 deg., and the nose went down about 60 deg. I
> immediately pulled the power completely off.
I do wonder what would have happened with power - but I'm not about to
suggest anyone run the experiment!
> It is important to note that this had nothing to do with wings, but
> with a ???new and improved??? canopy latching system.
Indeed. The naysayers can't say this is somehow related to the Zodiac's
structural design.
Another thought I just had: If this is a case of one side coming unlatched
in flight somehow (though, again, I'm at a loss to explain how it might
happen short of a component failure), maybe it'd be possible to add some
sort of a keeper to the open end of the latch hook that would have to be
manually moved out of the way before the latch could be undone? This would
be a bit difficult to undo while solo, but there's probably a way around
that, too.
> Consequently, I am STRONGLY recommending that any 601 have a fail-safe
> strap to the rear canopy bow, regardless of the latching system, to
> keep this from ever happening again.
Hm. I'm wondering if it wouldn't be possible to create some sort of latch
between the rear canopy bow and the tube on the front of the
turtledeck...have to look at that. I do know the turtledeck extends forward
a fair amount (I've thought about putting my 496's XM antenna up there), but
just how far forward I don't recall at the moment.
> Alive and still with you
And we're all thankful for that! In the end, you and Dennis were able to
walk away (well, almost), and that's what really counts. The airplane can be
replaced. You can't.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC
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All-
Time for another subject to flog. Jay is as good an eyewitness as
you'll ever get, and considering he had around an hour in type, his
emergency procedure performance was incredible. The ironic part is that
he was flying to meet an insurance requirement. In my estimation, he
should get his insurance for free.
Bill Naumuk
Townville, Pa.
HDS 601MG/Corvair 95%
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Bryan,
When the nose pitched down 60 deg was when I pulled the power off.
After that, we had all four hands fully engaged, so no way to change
anything.
I have had three previous engine-outs, which I handled without bending
anything. Those didn't scare me like this one, because I had full
control of a glider. Those caused immediate concern, but this one
scared the living sh...t out of me!
Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Sent: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 9:34 am
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Crash
<bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Did you leave the power off for the entire duration of the incident or
did you try to reapply power at some point? It seems that some prop
wash flowing over the tail might have provided more pitch control, if
you had the time to try it. I'm not trying to criticize or second
guess, but if i ever find myself in a similar situation, it would be
good to at least know what didn't work for someone else.
I know how quick you can run out of options in such a situation, I just
recently had a close call myself involving a forced landing after a
power failure. I was lucky to be very near an airport at the time and
put it down on the runway.
On Aug 16, 2008, at 9:41 AM, jaybannist@cs.com wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>
> The canopy had EVERYTHING to do with the crash. I have heard that >
the 601 is docile and controllable with the canopy up. Post all the >
pictures you want; but this 601
--Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
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See inserted comments (***):
-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
Sent: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 10:05 am
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Crash
I'm not about to second-guess your decisions and actions. You were
there,
and I wasn't. I'm just looking for information before I go out to the
airport and start looking at N55ZC to see what can be added.
On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 06:28:42PM -0400, jaybannist@cs.com wrote:
> I noticed that the right hand canopy latch had come loose and the
rail was
> up about 2 inches.
At this point, the left latch wasn't loose, I assume. The new latch can
be
visually verified to be latched quite easily. Did you or Dennis look
before
takeoff?
***Dennis is a "portly" individual, so I could not see the latch on his
side. I could see the latch on my side and it was engaged. At this
point, I am not absolutely certain that Dennis fully understands the
latching system. However, I feel certain I would have noticed an
unlatched condition as soon as we were airborne. I seem to recall
noticing a real increase in the airflow through the canopy vent on my
side just before I noticed the unlatched condition.
I'm at a loss to explain how one side could be unlatched. I've tried in
my
airplane to latch just one side and not engage the hook on the bolt on
the
other, and just wasn't able to without it being obvious there was a
problem.
> I pointed it out to Dennis. We were in sight of a private airfield,
but
> Dennis decided he was going to re-latch it - in the air!
This is probably why the AMD POH says to fly the airplane and make a
normal
landing, then fix it on the ground.
***Had I been alone, that is most certainly what I would have done. I
have had doors come open on take-off with Cherokees several times. I
simply flew the pattern and landed before trying to re-latch the door.
Noisy, but no big deal.
> In doing so, the latch on my side came loose and the canopy
immediately
> shot up to about 50 deg., and the nose went down about 60 deg. I
> immediately pulled the power completely off.
I do wonder what would have happened with power - but I'm not about to
suggest anyone run the experiment!
***With the nose pointed down 60 deg., would you have left the power
on? If so, you probably would have ripped the wings off pretty quickly.
> It is important to note that this had nothing to do with wings, but
> with a ???new and improved??? canopy latching system.
Indeed. The naysayers can't say this is somehow related to the Zodiac's
structural design.
Another thought I just had: If this is a case of one side coming
unlatched
in flight somehow (though, again, I'm at a loss to explain how it might
happen short of a component failure), maybe it'd be possible to add some
sort of a keeper to the open end of the latch hook that would have to be
manually moved out of the way before the latch could be undone? This
would
be a bit difficult to undo while solo, but there's probably a way around
that, too.
> Consequently, I am STRONGLY recommending that any 601 have a
fail-safe
> strap to the rear canopy bow, regardless of the latching system, to
> keep this from ever happening again.
Hm. I'm wondering if it wouldn't be possible to create some sort of
latch
between the rear canopy bow and the tube on the front of the
turtledeck...have to look at that. I do know the turtledeck extends
forward
a fair amount (I've thought about putting my 496's XM antenna up
there), but
just how far forward I don't recall at the moment.
> Alive and still with you
And we're all thankful for that! In the end, you and Dennis were able to
walk away (well, almost), and that's what really counts. The airplane
can be
replaced. You can't.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC
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| Subject: | Re: Flying Canopy open photos!!!!! |
I will ask him to write to the list and tell his story for us. I will tell
you he said he was so distracted he almost hit those wires you see in the p
hoto's. I looked for those pic's for about 2 hours last night and really wanted
to get them posted so if it happens to someone else they have proof it can be
flown and might not panic in the same situation. I looked for them a while
back when this subject came up and just gave up looking and now I am sorry I
did because Jay might have handled his situation differently had he known it
would fly and land just fine with it open. I feel as if I somehow let him down
and this list for not posting them sooner.
Jeff
Jeff
Those are amazing photos. Can you elaborate on the flight
configuration. ie full power, no flaps, and what the pilot reported with respect
to
handling etc.
It is worthy of an entry into the pilots handbook if this condition should
ever happen.
Any known differences between Jay's experience and this would be useful.
Thank goodness that Jay and friend were OK.
Gary Ray
----- Original Message -----
From: _Afterfxllc@aol.com_ (mailto:Afterfxllc@aol.com)
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 12:07 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Flying Canopy open photos!!!!!
I found the pics of the canopy being open in flight and posted them to my
website.
_http://project601xl.com/Canopy_Open.html_
(http://project601xl.com/Canopy_Open.html)
Enjoy
Jeff
**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
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Please. I would like to see no more "woulda', coulda', shoulda'" about
this subject on this public forum. If you have questions, please
contact me directly. If I feel there is subject matter that concerns
the list, I will most certainly share it with you.
Thanks - Jay
Bannister________________________________________________________________
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Jay
I wonder if the difference is 2 people inside the aircraft. He was flying
alone.
Jeff
Jeff,
The canopy had EVERYTHING to do with the crash. I have heard that the
601 is docile and controllable with the canopy up. Post all the
pictures you want; but this 601 was NOT controllable, at least in
pitch. I was able to make a gentile turn toward the "landing" site,
but both me and the other pilot could NOT get the nose up to a landing
configuration. When the canopy went up, it was almost out of reach and
we absolutely could not pull it down to more than about 30 deg. We did
noit "decide" to land. We could not keep it from going down. In our
situation, we may have "forgotten" to do several things, but with two
hands pulling mightily on the canopy and the other two pulling mightily
on the stick, we had no options as to what else to do. The wind was
unbelievable. The headset and my cap blew off my head. We were
fighting for our very lives. As they say, you just had to be there".
Jay
**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
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| Subject: | Re: Flying Canopy open photos!!!!! |
Jeff, Not helpful, Not appreciated. - Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 11:26 am
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying Canopy open photos!!!!!
I will ask him to write to the list and tell his story for us. I will
tell
you he said he was so distracted he almost hit those wires you see in
the
photo's. I looked for those pic's for about 2 hours last night and
really wanted
to get them posted so if it happens to someone else they have proof it
can be
flown and might not panic in the same situation. I looked for them a
while back
when this subject came up and just gave up looking and now I am sorry I
did
because Jay might have handled his situation differently had he known
it would
fly and land just fine with it open. I feel as if I somehow let him
down and
this list for not posting them sooner.
Jeff
Jeff
Those are amazing photos. Can you elaborate on
the flight configuration. ie full power, no flaps, and what the
pilot
reported with respect to handlingetc.
It is worthy of an entry into the pilots handbook if this condition
should ever happen.
Any known differences between Jay's experience and this would be
useful.
Thank goodness that Jay and friend were OK.
Gary Ray
----- Original Message -----
From:
Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 12:07
AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Flying Canopy
open photos!!!!!
I found the pics of the canopy being open in flight and posted them to
my website.
http://project601xl.com/Canopy_Open.html
Enjoy
Jeff
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No one is thinking they know better than anyone and the pic's weren't to say
what he should or shouldn't have done but I haven't seen anything negative
until your post. And since I build these things and was considering the new
latch system I too am looking for ways to help and understand.
Jay, don't worry about the clowns who think they know better than you what
could/should have been done. It's pointless.
**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
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| Subject: | Re: Flying Canopy open photos!!!!! |
Sorry we disagree with you Jay but I think this is the list to talk about
this and help the next guy out and I can't understand why you are here if you
don't see that.
Jeff
Jeff, Not helpful, Not appreciated. - Jay
**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
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Jay!
Well done my man. Thanks for sharing your story so that others can benefit from
it. Because of your account, I'll definitely be incorporating some type of secondary
canopy safety strap in mine. I'd heard of things like this happening,
but truly now understand the consequences. Much appreciated.
Debo Cox
Nags Head, NC
Doing my best to keep my nose from pitching 60-degrees. *Gulp*
do not archive
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Jay,
Is it possible your shoulder may have hit the new canopy release lever the
factory put between the pilot and passenger? Did you have any up elevator
travel left before you landed? Do you think the new canopy release lever
should be moved to a different location? Do you think it would be possible
at a higher speed to loose the canopy and inadvertantly put the airplane in
a condition that would overstress the wings?
Congratulations on demonstrating great skill as a pilot. We all wish you the
best and heal fast!
Joe in Oshkosh
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On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 12:00:10PM -0500, Joe Scheibinger wrote:
> Is it possible your shoulder may have hit the new canopy release lever the
> factory put between the pilot and passenger?
I'm not going to speak for Jay, but I doubt it strongly. The location of the
latch lever, as well as its position when closed and locked, would make it
extremely difficult to open by bumping it with an elbow, much less a
shoulder. It takes a significant pull upwards on mine to unlatch the canopy.
> Do you think the new canopy release lever should be moved to a different
> location?
I can't think of another location for the latch lever on the inside that
would work any better without significant added complexity - which defeats
the purpose of the new style latch to begin with.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC
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| Subject: | Re: Flying Canopy open photos!!!!! |
I thank you all for this subject. I had thought about a safety strap
"in case" but put it on the bottom of my to do list. Not now. I WILL
have a safety strap. One that can be opened by rescue personel if
needed....
SW
----- Original Message -----
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying Canopy open photos!!!!!
Sorry we disagree with you Jay but I think this is the list to talk
about this and help the next guy out and I can't understand why you are
here if you don't see that.
Jeff
Jeff, Not helpful, Not appreciated. - Jay
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I have a 601 with the side opening canopy, and mine popped open during run
up on the ground, so I added slide locks to keep the latch from pulling away
from the canopy. After this story, I'm glad I did.
I would expect an open canopy to greatly, disturb the airflow to the tail,
perhaps even block it. The added drag would of course be tremendous,
staying in the air would probably depend a lot on the engine
installed and prop used.
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
jaybannist@cs.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Crash
Bryan,
When the nose pitched down 60 deg was when I pulled the power off.
After that, we had all four hands fully engaged, so no way to change
anything.
I have had three previous engine-outs, which I handled without bending
anything. Those didn't scare me like this one, because I had full
control of a glider. Those caused immediate concern, but this one
scared the living sh...t out of me!
Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Sent: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 9:34 am
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Crash
<bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Did you leave the power off for the entire duration of the incident or
did you try to reapply power at some point? It seems that some prop
wash flowing over the tail might have provided more pitch control, if
you had the time to try it. I'm not trying to criticize or second
guess, but if i ever find myself in a similar situation, it would be
good to at least know what didn't work for someone else.
I know how quick you can run out of options in such a situation, I just
recently had a close call myself involving a forced landing after a
power failure. I was lucky to be very near an airport at the time and
put it down on the runway.
On Aug 16, 2008, at 9:41 AM, jaybannist@cs.com wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>
> The canopy had EVERYTHING to do with the crash. I have heard that >
the 601 is docile and controllable with the canopy up. Post all the >
pictures you want; but this 601
--Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
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Howdy all
When the prop broke off my 601 HDS, I did give me one advantage, without the
drag of the prop, the thing glided really well even into a head wind. In
fact, I probably set some kind of 601 glide record. (9 miles from 6000 ft
AGL)
(Every cloud has it's silver lining, yes?)
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
jaybannist@cs.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Crash
Bryan,
When the nose pitched down 60 deg was when I pulled the power off.
After that, we had all four hands fully engaged, so no way to change
anything.
I have had three previous engine-outs, which I handled without bending
anything. Those didn't scare me like this one, because I had full
control of a glider. Those caused immediate concern, but this one
scared the living sh...t out of me!
Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Sent: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 9:34 am
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Crash
<bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Did you leave the power off for the entire duration of the incident or
did you try to reapply power at some point? It seems that some prop
wash flowing over the tail might have provided more pitch control, if
you had the time to try it. I'm not trying to criticize or second
guess, but if i ever find myself in a similar situation, it would be
good to at least know what didn't work for someone else.
I know how quick you can run out of options in such a situation, I just
recently had a close call myself involving a forced landing after a
power failure. I was lucky to be very near an airport at the time and
put it down on the runway.
On Aug 16, 2008, at 9:41 AM, jaybannist@cs.com wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>
> The canopy had EVERYTHING to do with the crash. I have heard that >
the 601 is docile and controllable with the canopy up. Post all the >
pictures you want; but this 601
--Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
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| Subject: | Thoughts on what to do in Canopy OPen situation |
All,
Read all the emails on Jay's situation. Happy he is safe, the main point.
I as Jay have experitmented with an open canopy situation.
Do what you want with it, but this is what I have done.
On a 7800 ft run way, I took off with canopy unlatched. At 40 mph the air over
the canopy sucked it up to 30 degrees (approx), thats it. Keeped speed up at
wheels off and the plane flew, quite breezy but flew.
At flare /stall point, (38 mph (approx) canopy began to come down.
My personal conclusion, the plane flys with canopy open, though quite intimidating
at first, it will get you to the ground in a "controlled manner". Did a couple
of hops this way to get a feel for it.
The key in this very low probility situation is, keep the engine rpm up as drag
definitely increases, flaps set for full deflection, pick a spot to land.
If at altitude, just fly the plane. If you have enough "sack" as they say, pitch
the plane to near stall, the bubble will come down with one hand.)(Too much
for one guy by himself, i tryed).
Go to the root of the problem,
the canopy should double click on each side if built right. That means right side
unlatches first, then the left. If the canopy unlatches, then check for where
the handle is and the length of the handle pin. The shorter the pin, the
less an inadvertant should will hit it. Check some AMD one some time , the
handle lever is much closer, no more than 1 cm from Canopy side, and faces away
from the pilot.
Just thoughts.
Juan.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Afterfxllc@aol.com
>Sent: Aug 16, 2008 12:26 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Flying Canopy open photos!!!!!
>
>
>I will ask him to write to the list and tell his story for us. I will tell
>you he said he was so distracted he almost hit those wires you see in the p
>hoto's. I looked for those pic's for about 2 hours last night and really wanted
>to get them posted so if it happens to someone else they have proof it can be
>flown and might not panic in the same situation. I looked for them a while
>back when this subject came up and just gave up looking and now I am sorry I
>did because Jay might have handled his situation differently had he known it
>would fly and land just fine with it open. I feel as if I somehow let him down
>and this list for not posting them sooner.
>
>Jeff
>
>Jeff
>
> Those are amazing photos. Can you elaborate on the flight
>configuration. ie full power, no flaps, and what the pilot reported with respect
to
>handling etc.
>It is worthy of an entry into the pilots handbook if this condition should
>ever happen.
>Any known differences between Jay's experience and this would be useful.
>Thank goodness that Jay and friend were OK.
>
>Gary Ray
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: _Afterfxllc@aol.com_ (mailto:Afterfxllc@aol.com)
>To: _zenith-list@matronics.com_ (mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com)
>Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 12:07 AM
>Subject: Zenith-List: Flying Canopy open photos!!!!!
>
>
>I found the pics of the canopy being open in flight and posted them to my
>website.
>
>_http://project601xl.com/Canopy_Open.html_
>(http://project601xl.com/Canopy_Open.html)
>
>Enjoy
>Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
>Read reviews on AOL Autos.
>(http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )
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| Subject: | Re: Flying Canopy open photos!!!!! |
notsew_evets(at)frontiern wrote:
> I thank you all for this subject. I had thought about a safety strap "in case"
but put it on the bottom of my to do list. Not now. I WILL have a safety
strap. One that can be opened by rescue personel if needed....
>
> SW
>
Don't worry too much about rescue personal access. Every fireman I've ever known
would look at our canopies and open it with their axe.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198989#198989
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I took a look at the new latching system on the 650 at Oshkosh and it
occurs to me that, with both latches directly connected together
through the torque tube, any attempt to re-latch one side would push
both latches farther out of engagement and probably cause both sides
to come unlatched. I'm guessing that's what happened in this case. At
least with the old system, attempting to re-latch one side isn't
likely to cause the other side to come unlatched since they latch
independently of each other. I think I like the old system better.
This incident should be a strong warning that no attempt should be
made to re-latch the canopy in flight if it has the new design
latching system. I'm glad it turned out as well as it did, it could
have been far worse.
On Aug 16, 2008, at 11:05 AM, Jay Maynard wrote:
>
> I'm at a loss to explain how one side could be unlatched. I've tried
> in my
> airplane to latch just one side and not engage the hook on the bolt
> on the
> other, and just wasn't able to without it being obvious there was a
> problem.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
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Hi Jay,
I'm real glad to hear you made it down safely with as few bumps and bruises
as you reported. That sounds like it could have gone real bad quickly. I
totaled an Aeronca Chief one time and it's amazing how quickly they come to
a stop yet how much you remember while it's happening! It looks like a
credit to the airframe and overall structure that it held together during
the impact.
BTW, I was wrong about the openings in the cowl... they are 4-7/8", not
3-7/8". I did have a leak in the Baffles that caused some of the cooling
air to miss the cylinder area but was fixed the next time I replaced the
cowling.
Hope you and your instructor recover quickly. I know I'm now going to make
a note to check the latches a lot more carefully now. I have a strap but I
have left it loose for the same reason as Larry... it was meant to keep the
canopy from flying open and slamming against the top forward skin. I think
I'll tighten it up before the flight just to be sure. I have a quick
disconnect if needed.
Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
601XL with WW Corvair, Registered as E-LSA
N601EL, http://placestofly.com, http://eaa203.com,
http://mykitlog.com/sdthatcher
Webmaster: http://zenvair.com
Time: 03:29:41 PM PST US
Subject: Zenith-List: Crash
From: jaybannist@cs.com
OK, a few facts from the horses mouth:
As most of you know, I have just completed a Zodiac CH 601XL (Lil
Bruiser). Both me and the insurance company wanted me to get at least
an hour in make and model before I solo my airplane. I discovered a new
service at McKinney Airport (TKI), for training and rental in a 601XLi.
This was a familiarization flight in a nearly new AMD built 601XLi.
The airplane originally had the old style canopy latches. The owner
was not satisfied with that mechanism and had the factory retrofit the
new style latches. The owner, Dennis Levy, who is also CFII. was in the
right seat, me in the left. We had gone through all the standard
maneuvers and were straight and level. I noticed that the right hand
canopy latch had come loose and the rail was up about 2 inches. I
pointed it out to Dennis. We were in sight of a private airfield, but
Dennis decided he was going to re-latch it - in the air! In doing so,
the latch on my side came loose and the canopy immediately shot up to
about 50 deg., and the nose went down about 60 deg. I immediately
pulled the power completely off. We both grabbed what we could on the
canopy but could only pull it down to about 30 deg. We both pulled
back on the sticks, with all our might, but never got the nose up to
level. I steered toward an open, plowed field. We hit the ground at
about 10 deg nose down and stopped immediately. No fire. The canopy
did not depart the airframe. Dennis was air lifted to Baylor Hospital
in Dallas. I was taken to the trauma suite at the Presbyterian
Hospital in Greenville. X-rays and CAT scans showed nothing out of
place or broken. I have a badly sprained right foot and ankle, a
bruised rib cage and lots of cuts and bruises on my arms. I also have
a slight vision problem. In pain, but still OK.
It is important to note that this had nothing to do with wings, but
with a new and improved canopy latching system.
Consequently, I am STRONGLY recommending that any 601 have a fail-safe
strap to the rear canopy bow, regardless of the latching system, to
keep this from ever happening again.
Alive and still with you - Jay
Bannister________________________________________________________________
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| Subject: | Jab 3300 airbox location |
Hi all
I am installing the Airbox onto the Zodiac XL firewall. Since I don't have a Jab3300
engine yet and the installation paperwork said to line up the air exit level
with the inlet to the Bing Carb I have a problem.
There are no firewall measurements in the paperwork to locate this airbox? I have
the engine mount and can fit it between that on the RH side, but how far down
from the horizontal stiffener? How exact does it have to be L/R up ?down from
the carb? the DVD is not that clear on measurements.
Pete Is this something that could be added to the 601 FWF paperwork
Thanks
Chris.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199035#199035
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