---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 09/05/08: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:12 AM - Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals (ashontz) 2. 06:29 AM - Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals (Gig Giacona) 3. 06:32 AM - Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals (Gig Giacona) 4. 07:19 AM - Re: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals (Paul Mulwitz) 5. 07:40 AM - Re: Re: Ethanol (was leaking VDO....) (jaybannist@cs.com) 6. 08:17 AM - Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals (ashontz) 7. 10:02 AM - Online EAA Videos (Gig Giacona) 8. 02:27 PM - Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals (PatrickW) 9. 05:34 PM - Re: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals (steve) 10. 07:43 PM - Wire tension gage (George Swinford) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:12:21 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals From: "ashontz" That's more the spirit. I just threw this out there because it came up in an EAA meeting of ours and I thought it was interesting. EAA = EXPERIMENTAL Aircraft Association. This was an experiment that a guy ran that he had luck with. It's worth further investigation for sure on the lines of exactly what octane is the result, but it certainly seems like a promising way to remove a known contaminant (ethanol). Ethanol poses a number of problems, not just phase separation and water retention in solution leading to a foul running engine. It obviously breaks down seals and gaskets, cleans varnish and sludge buildup that may clog a fuel filter in flight etc... Personally, if I was running mo-gas I wouldn't want ethanol in it up in the air. I've had this E10 stuff foul my boat engine, at least there you can just anchor up and try to repeatedly restart and let it fluff and fart for 10 minutes til it clears itself. That's not something you can do in the air. And when I had that happen and took the fuel/water separator off and drained it, there was nothing to see, the fuel appeared fine, that was just the water in suspension in the ethanol, before outright phase separation. If that was a plane, the fuel would have appeared to have been fine on a pre-flight gascolator drain check. PatrickW wrote: > I'd like to be able to safely burn whatever fuel is available. If 100ll is available, that'll be my first choice. > > But what if it isn't available? I'd like to have the flexibility to use auto gas (that might or might not have ethanol in it) if I need to. > > We don't know what the fuel availability will be a few years from now. We should build our fuel systems today for what we might encounter in the future. > > - Pat -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2708#202708 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:10 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals From: "Gig Giacona" Patrick, you can build your fuel system to run with ethanol laced gas. But it won't be easy. You are going to have to confirm that every single item from the fuel cap to the engine is capable of dealing with the stuff. I've spent a lot of time going through the various catalogs and product websites and many of them don't say if their product is ethanol safe or not so that means you have to test it yourself. That said I think that will change over the next few years as it becomes more and more of an issue for us places like ACS will start marking the products they carry as ethanol safe. The primary problems with ethanol though is that it will always absorb water and it will always have less energy than gasoline. There are too many certified planes out there for 100LL or some successor of it to ever go away completely and I'd be willing to bet that in the foreseeable future we will be able to purchase something without ethanol in it. God only knows what it will cost but the same could be said for mogas. PatrickW wrote: > I'd like to be able to safely burn whatever fuel is available. If 100ll is available, that'll be my first choice. > > But what if it isn't available? I'd like to have the flexibility to use auto gas (that might or might not have ethanol in it) if I need to. > > We don't know what the fuel availability will be a few years from now. We should build our fuel systems today for what we might encounter in the future. > > - Pat -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2729#202729 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:24 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals From: "Gig Giacona" Andy, what part of "You don't know what the Octane is after the removal of the ethanol," don't you understand? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2731#202731 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:38 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals I think it is a mistake to assume we will forever be forced to deal with adulterated gas. The alcohol movement got a lot of political support in the beginning, but today there is a lot of resistance to this idea. The political arena will determine the future of alcohol in our gas. This could change in just a few years to return to the old tried and true notion that gas pumps should pump just gasoline and alcohol should be reserved for hangar flying. Paul XL getting close do not archive At 06:28 AM 9/5/2008, you wrote: > >Patrick, you can build your fuel system to run with ethanol laced >gas. But it won't be easy. You are going to have to confirm that >every single item from the fuel cap to the engine is capable of >dealing with the stuff. I've spent a lot of time going through the >various catalogs and product websites and many of them don't say if >their product is ethanol safe or not so that means you have to test >it yourself. > >That said I think that will change over the next few years as it >becomes more and more of an issue for us places like ACS will start >marking the products they carry as ethanol safe. > >The primary problems with ethanol though is that it will always >absorb water and it will always have less energy than gasoline. > >There are too many certified planes out there for 100LL or some >successor of it to ever go away completely and I'd be willing to bet >that in the foreseeable future we will be able to purchase something >without ethanol in it. God only knows what it will cost but the same >could be said for mogas. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:40:58 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Ethanol (was leaking VDO....) From: jaybannist@cs.com Paul, You are absolutely correct. Ethanol in our gasoline has nothing to do with saving energy (it costs more to produce than gasoline) or with protecting the environment (emissions are worse than gasoline). It is PURELY political. We can only hope that saner, more rational, less political leaders can correct this abominable mistake; but I will certainly not be betting the rent money on this happening. I'm just not "experimental" enough to trust my life to gasoline with any ethanol added. I'll be sticking with 100LL. Jay in Dallas Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Paul Mulwitz Sent: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 9:18 am Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals I think it is a mistake to assume we will forever be forced to deal with adulterated gas. The alcohol movement got a lot of political support in the beginning, but today there is a lot of resistance to this idea. The political arena will determine the future of alcohol in our gas. This could change in just a few years to return to the old tried and true notion that gas pumps should pump just gasoline and alcohol should be reserved for hangar flying. Paul XL getting close do not archive ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:58 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals From: "ashontz" I apologize everyone. Gig's always right, I'm always wrong. It's just easier that way. LOL -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2755#202755 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:02:49 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Online EAA Videos From: "Gig Giacona" I don't know if this is new or if I just found it but the EAA has a site with some pretty neat "How-To" videos available on the web at: http://www.eaa.org/video/homebuilders.html Worth taking a look at. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2774#202774 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:27:15 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals From: "PatrickW" Gig Giacona wrote: > Patrick, you can build your fuel system to run with ethanol laced gas. But it won't be easy. You are going to have to confirm that every single item from the fuel cap to the engine is capable of dealing with the stuff. My intent is to build my fuel system to be ethanol tolerant, but of course I have learned a lot more since I started (I say that because I overlooked the fuel filler cap seals). A lot of builders (including myself) are using Summit braided steel fuel line (Summit says "our hose is designed to handle any fuel including methanol and nitromethane, oil, or coolant"). Does "methanol safe" also means "ethanol safe"...? It's been about 20 years since I took organic chemistry, but I think so. But still, testing is the only way to know for sure. Maybe put a piece in a jar of ethanol for a few months and see if anything happens... What about carb parts? Is it safe to assume newer materials are alcohol tolerant?. I have an MA3-SPA that's freshly rebuilt. Just now I read the documentation that came with it, but it doesn't say anything about ethanol. Has anyone tested the VW sender seals? We already know about the filler cap seal.... :-( Gig - You're a bit closer to being done than I am. Given what you know now, do you think your airplane would tolerate ethanol laced gas if some were put in by mistake? (granted that you prefer 100ll) Is there anybody out there who has been flying with an ethanol tolerant fuel system who can shed some light on what works and what doesn't...? - Pat -------- Patrick 601XL/Corvair N63PZ (reserved) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2822#202822 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:32 PM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals Sorry I know this is off topic but::: Wire tension gauge? I dont want to buy a WTG at $899. What are you guys doing to calibrate the tension on your control cables. I found sailboat stay wire gauges on the internet. Costing $99. I asked the dealer about using them on airplanes and was told that it would work ok but the gauge is for stainless steel wire and the reads would be off. I can handle $99 not the $899. SW 601XL ----- Original Message ----- From: "PatrickW" Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 2:26 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals > > > Gig Giacona wrote: >> Patrick, you can build your fuel system to run with ethanol laced gas. >> But it won't be easy. You are going to have to confirm that every single >> item from the fuel cap to the engine is capable of dealing with the >> stuff. > > > My intent is to build my fuel system to be ethanol tolerant, but of course > I have learned a lot more since I started (I say that because I overlooked > the fuel filler cap seals). > > A lot of builders (including myself) are using Summit braided steel fuel > line (Summit says "our hose is designed to handle any fuel including > methanol and nitromethane, oil, or coolant"). Does "methanol safe" also > means "ethanol safe"...? It's been about 20 years since I took organic > chemistry, but I think so. But still, testing is the only way to know for > sure. Maybe put a piece in a jar of ethanol for a few months and see if > anything happens... > > What about carb parts? Is it safe to assume newer materials are alcohol > tolerant?. I have an MA3-SPA that's freshly rebuilt. Just now I read the > documentation that came with it, but it doesn't say anything about > ethanol. > > Has anyone tested the VW sender seals? > > We already know about the filler cap seal.... :-( > > Gig - You're a bit closer to being done than I am. Given what you know > now, do you think your airplane would tolerate ethanol laced gas if some > were put in by mistake? (granted that you prefer 100ll) > > Is there anybody out there who has been flying with an ethanol tolerant > fuel system who can shed some light on what works and what doesn't...? > > - Pat > > -------- > Patrick > 601XL/Corvair > N63PZ (reserved) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2822#202822 > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:50 PM PST US From: "George Swinford" Subject: Zenith-List: Wire tension gage Steve: I bought a "sailboat gage and found it not much use for our purpose. See Larry McFarland's home-made tension gage on his web site. George do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.