---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 09/30/08: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:41 AM - Re: Panel questions (Gig Giacona) 2. 11:37 AM - Re: Re: Panel questions (steve) 3. 03:09 PM - Re: Re: Panel questions (Bill Naumuk) 4. 03:14 PM - Fw: Members Only Question- Whiskey compass (Bill Naumuk) 5. 04:52 PM - Instrument panel marking (wade jones) 6. 04:59 PM - Altitude encoder (Bill Naumuk) 7. 05:03 PM - Re: Instrument panel marking (Dirk Zahtilla) 8. 05:04 PM - Re: Instrument panel marking (Craig Payne) 9. 05:20 PM - Re: Instrument panel marking (jaybannist@cs.com) 10. 05:25 PM - Re: Instrument panel marking (Craig Payne) 11. 05:35 PM - Re: Altitude encoder (Tim Shankland) 12. 05:36 PM - Re: Altitude encoder (Craig Payne) 13. 05:36 PM - Re: Altitude encoder (Paul Mulwitz) 14. 05:37 PM - Re: Altitude encoder (Dirk Zahtilla) 15. 05:46 PM - Re: Instrument panel marking (LarryMcFarland) 16. 05:46 PM - Re: Altitude encoder (Bryan Martin) 17. 05:48 PM - Re: Altitude encoder (Bill Naumuk) 18. 06:03 PM - Re: Altitude encoder (Dirk Zahtilla) 19. 06:44 PM - Re: Altitude encoder (Craig Payne) 20. 08:10 PM - Re: Altitude encoder (Craig Payne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:15 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Panel questions From: "Gig Giacona" > I asked EAA as well, here's the answer. > > "An experimental aircraft that is operated day-VFR > only does not have to comply with FAR 91.205. Only when flying at night or IFR does the experimental aircraft need to meet 91.205. (This is required by the aircraft's operating limitations, issued as a part of its airworthiness certificate, rather than by the regulation itself.) > > Hope this helps! > > Joe > > Joe Norris > EAA 113615 Lifetime > Homebuilders Community Manager " So that should answer that. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6930#206930 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:37:21 AM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Panel questions Got that same answer from Joe when I asked if my GPS would satisfy the compass rule. Joe told me that I really didnt need a compass anyway. Then I mentioned that fact to the local People ( IA FAA DAR). They said that YES I needed a Magnetic Direction Device.......The GPS was NOT a MDD. So with my tail between my legs I went out and purchased an Airpath ($169) and it makes em happy. Rules or not, I do what "they" say... SW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gig Giacona" Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 9:40 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Panel questions > > >> I asked EAA as well, here's the answer. >> >> "An experimental aircraft that is operated day-VFR >> only does not have to comply with FAR 91.205. Only when flying at night >> or IFR does the experimental aircraft need to meet 91.205. (This is >> required by the aircraft's operating limitations, issued as a part of its >> airworthiness certificate, rather than by the regulation itself.) >> >> Hope this helps! >> >> Joe >> >> Joe Norris >> EAA 113615 Lifetime >> Homebuilders Community Manager > " > > > So that should answer that. > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6930#206930 > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:09:10 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Panel questions Unfortunately, it doesn't settle the Dynon/whiskey compass question, which was the whole point in the first place. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gig Giacona" Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 12:40 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Panel questions > > >> I asked EAA as well, here's the answer. >> >> "An experimental aircraft that is operated day-VFR >> only does not have to comply with FAR 91.205. Only when flying at night >> or IFR does the experimental aircraft need to meet 91.205. (This is >> required by the aircraft's operating limitations, issued as a part of its >> airworthiness certificate, rather than by the regulation itself.) >> >> Hope this helps! >> >> Joe >> >> Joe Norris >> EAA 113615 Lifetime >> Homebuilders Community Manager > " > > > So that should answer that. > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6930#206930 > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:14:14 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Fw: Members Only Question- Whiskey compass All- OK, here's the answer in it's entirety. Looks like the Dynon is a go. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe Norris Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 12:37 PM Subject: RE: Members Only Question- Whiskey compass Hello Bill, An experimental aircraft that is operated day-VFR only is not required to have a compass at all. Only if operated at night or under IFR is the aircraft required to have a compass (along with all other equipment called out in FAR 91.205). In any event, any "magnetic direction indicator" that is capable of finding north on its own will meet the requirement. There is no specific requirement for any particular type of indicator/compass. Joe Joe Norris EAA 113615 Lifetime Homebuilders Community Manager EAA-The Spirit of Aviation Phone: 888.322.4636 Extension 6806 Fax: 920.426.6560 www.eaa.org See you at EAA AirVenture Oshkosh-July 27 - August 2, 2009 From: Bill Naumuk [mailto:naumuk@alltel.net] Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 5:33 PM Subject: Members Only Question- Whiskey compass EAA- Big fight going on the Zenith builder's website that I started. I thought I had to equip my panel with a whiskey compass by regulations and just bought a Dynon D-100 with slaved magnetic compass. Do I still need the whiskey compass to pass regs? I have the Dynon LithIon backup and a handheld GPS, so it's not like I'm without redundant systems.I really don't want the extra weight and panel space of the whiskey compass if I don't have to use it. Thanks. Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:01 PM PST US From: "wade jones" Subject: Zenith-List: Instrument panel marking Hello group ,I am about ready to start marking my panel .Items like fuel pumps ,flaps ,trim ect. What have the members been having the best luck with . Thanks Wade Jones South Texas 601XL Franklin 0-235 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:59:26 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Altitude encoder All- Do I need an altitude encoder with a mode C transponder, or is that an option? Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:11 PM PST US From: "Dirk Zahtilla" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Instrument panel marking I used a Dymo labeler (printer type) not expensive and they have a foil type tape that holds up well. Dirk ----- Original Message ----- From: wade jones To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 4:50 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Instrument panel marking Hello group ,I am about ready to start marking my panel .Items like fuel pumps ,flaps ,trim ect. What have the members been having the best luck with . Thanks Wade Jones South Texas 601XL Franklin 0-235 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:15 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Instrument panel marking In the current (Nov) issue of Kitplanes Stein Bruch (of Stein Air) has a good article summarizing his experience with all the options. But you need a subscription: http://www.kitplanes.com I'm not building a pretty plane so I'm just using labels created on a Brother pTouch thermal label maker. -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of wade jones Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 5:51 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Instrument panel marking Hello group ,I am about ready to start marking my panel .Items like fuel pumps ,flaps ,trim ect. What have the members been having the best luck with . Thanks Wade Jones South Texas 601XL Franklin 0-235 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:20:47 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Instrument panel marking From: jaybannist@cs.com Wade, I used a Brother P-Touch label maker.? Since my panel is a medium gray, I used clear tape with white lettering.? For a lighter panel, I would have used clear tape with black lettering.? I can send photos if you want. Jay -----Original Message----- From: wade jones Sent: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 6:50 pm Subject: Zenith-List: Instrument panel marking Hello group ,I am about ready to start marking my panel .Items like fuel pumps ,flaps ,trim ect. What have the members been having the best luck with . Thanks Wade? Jones? South Texas 601XL Franklin 0-235 ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:25:10 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Instrument panel marking The pTouch labels hold up well too. I printed a black-on-white test label, stuck it to a piece of aluminum and nailed it to the south-facing wall of my house. After two Utah summers and winters at 7000 feet it looks unchanged. -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dirk Zahtilla Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 6:03 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Instrument panel marking I used a Dymo labeler (printer type) not expensive and they have a foil type tape that holds up well. Dirk ----- Original Message ----- From: wade jones Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 4:50 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Instrument panel marking Hello group ,I am about ready to start marking my panel .Items like fuel pumps ,flaps ,trim ect. What have the members been having the best luck with . Thanks Wade Jones South Texas 601XL Franklin 0-235 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:27 PM PST US From: Tim Shankland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Altitude encoder Bill, If you want your mode C transponder to provide altitude information you will need some type of alttitude encoder. Tim Shankland 601HD N706TS Bill Naumuk wrote: > All- > Do I need an altitude encoder with a mode C transponder, or is > that an option? > Bill Naumuk > Townville, Pa. > HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:01 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Altitude encoder Yes you need an encoded but your Dynon D100 can do the job. If your transponder works with serial encoders then all you need are some wires. If it only accept parallel the you need to buy a little box from Dynon - still cheaper than an encoded. http://www.dynonavionics.com/downloads/Install_Guides/EFIS-D100%20Installati on%20Guide.pdf, page 18, "Altitude Encoder Wiring" Which transponder do you have? -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 5:58 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Altitude encoder All- Do I need an altitude encoder with a mode C transponder, or is that an option? Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:08 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Altitude encoder Hi Bill, The transponder only transmits the altitude information. Altitude information must be provided by an external device of some sort. The old fashioned way to get the altitude is with a blind encoder device. This is not a sensitive altimeter,so there is a dance you must do with ATC. Each time you talk to a controller for the first time you must tell him your altitude. That lets him calibrate his eyeball to adjust your blind encoder report on his radar screen to your sensitive altimeter report. For most of us these days, the Dynon or other EFIS device will supply altitude information to the transponder. In this case the altitude reported is correct. Still, you must do the dance with ATC. After all, they don't know you have modern equipment on your plane. Good luck, Paul XL getting close At 04:58 PM 9/30/2008, you wrote: >All- > Do I need an altitude encoder with a mode C transponder, or is > that an option? >Bill Naumuk >Townville, Pa. >HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:24 PM PST US From: "Dirk Zahtilla" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Altitude encoder Yes, if you want to operate in class B & C? airspace. You can get one from A.S. for about $150. Dirk ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Naumuk To: zenith list Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 4:58 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Altitude encoder All- Do I need an altitude encoder with a mode C transponder, or is that an option? Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:08 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Instrument panel marking Hi Wade, I used transparent sheet material from Staples, printed in Ariel-Bold-Black on a laser printer. Cut them out and placed them. To do again, I'd think about putting a blind transparent cover over the laser print. Otherwise I've been happy with the simple result where I've not had my fingers touching them. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com wade jones wrote: > Hello group ,I am about ready to start marking my panel .Items like > fuel pumps ,flaps ,trim ect. What have the members been having the > best luck with . Thanks > Wade Jones South Texas > 601XL Franklin 0-235 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:55 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Altitude encoder The mode A function should work fine without the encoder, you just won't have the mode C altitude reporting function available. On Sep 30, 2008, at 7:58 PM, Bill Naumuk wrote: > All- > Do I need an altitude encoder with a mode C transponder, or is > that an option? > Bill Naumuk > Townville, Pa. > HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:39 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Altitude encoder Craig- I'm looking at, but haven't bought a Bendix TR661A w/encoder, but no tray. The price is reasonable enough, and I figure I could build a tray. Since Dave Clay turned me on to Used Avionics.com, there are a multitude of choices. Decisions, decisions! Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Payne To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 8:34 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Altitude encoder Yes you need an encoded but your Dynon D100 can do the job. If your transponder works with serial encoders then all you need are some wires. If it only accept parallel the you need to buy a little box from Dynon - still cheaper than an encoded. http://www.dynonavionics.com/downloads/Install_Guides/EFIS-D100%20Install ation%20Guide.pdf, page 18, "Altitude Encoder Wiring" Which transponder do you have? -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 5:58 PM To: zenith list Subject: Zenith-List: Altitude encoder All- Do I need an altitude encoder with a mode C transponder, or is that an option? Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:03:05 PM PST US From: "Dirk Zahtilla" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Altitude encoder If you give ATC your GPS altitude chances are it will be wrong. They will invariably give you the baro pressure to set your altimiter and your blind encoder if correct will match with this setting. I found out the hard (embarassing) way by setting my altimeter to my GPS and found out it was off by over 500 feet. ATC doesn't care about your actual altitude, they just want everyone on the same page (their page). Dirk ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Mulwitz To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 5:35 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Altitude encoder Hi Bill, The transponder only transmits the altitude information. Altitude information must be provided by an external device of some sort. The old fashioned way to get the altitude is with a blind encoder device. This is not a sensitive altimeter,so there is a dance you must do with ATC. Each time you talk to a controller for the first time you must tell him your altitude. That lets him calibrate his eyeball to adjust your blind encoder report on his radar screen to your sensitive altimeter report. For most of us these days, the Dynon or other EFIS device will supply altitude information to the transponder. In this case the altitude reported is correct. Still, you must do the dance with ATC. After all, they don't know you have modern equipment on your plane. Good luck, Paul XL getting close At 04:58 PM 9/30/2008, you wrote: All- Do I need an altitude encoder with a mode C transponder, or is that an option? Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:15 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Altitude encoder At least for my Garmin 327 transponder the tray is fairly fancy. The tray contains mating connectors for the power/data and the antenna connectors. The alignment is good enough that the transponder slides in and the connectors mate. This would be important in a packed panel where you didn't have access to the rear of the panel. But I doubt your panel is that elaborate and you may be building access panels to the rear of the panel into your glare shield as many builders have. Hopefully you are getting a discount due to the missing tray. I can't find any manuals for the Bendix TR661A but I bet it is old enough that it only offers parallel output. Chief Aircraft lists the Dynon converter box (Dynon p/n 362-000) at $80 so factor that into your calculations. But if the one you are looking at includes an encoder then you could just plumb the included encoder into your static system and have one more box behind you panel. On the other hand if the price of the encoder is hidden in the price of the used transponder it may be cheaper to by a transponder without the encoder and just spend the $80 on the Dynon converter box. In older transponders the transmitters are tube-based. With a used transponder you don't know how much life is left in the tube and replacements are expensive. The newer ones are solid-state. You get what you pay for (or at least you don't get what you don't pay for). The cheapest new solid-state transponder I could find is Narco single-display AT165/VS. Spruce quotes it at $1335. -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 6:48 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Altitude encoder Craig- I'm looking at, but haven't bought a Bendix TR661A w/encoder, but no tray. The price is reasonable enough, and I figure I could build a tray. Since Dave Clay turned me on to Used Avionics.com, there are a multitude of choices. Decisions, decisions! Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Payne Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 8:34 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Altitude encoder Yes you need an encoded but your Dynon D100 can do the job. If your transponder works with serial encoders then all you need are some wires. If it only accept parallel the you need to buy a little box from Dynon - still cheaper than an encoded. http://www.dynonavionics.com/downloads/Install_Guides/EFIS-D100%20Installati on%20Guide.pdf, page 18, "Altitude Encoder Wiring" Which transponder do you have? -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 5:58 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Altitude encoder All- Do I need an altitude encoder with a mode C transponder, or is that an option? Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:46 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Altitude encoder One other point - if you don't get the tray you may not get the multi-contact data connector that mates to the back of the transponder. It may be a hassle tracking down the right connector. -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 6:48 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Altitude encoder Craig- I'm looking at, but haven't bought a Bendix TR661A w/encoder, but no tray. The price is reasonable enough, and I figure I could build a tray. Since Dave Clay turned me on to Used Avionics.com, there are a multitude of choices. Decisions, decisions! Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Payne Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 8:34 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Altitude encoder Yes you need an encoded but your Dynon D100 can do the job. If your transponder works with serial encoders then all you need are some wires. If it only accept parallel the you need to buy a little box from Dynon - still cheaper than an encoded. http://www.dynonavionics.com/downloads/Install_Guides/EFIS-D100%20Installati on%20Guide.pdf, page 18, "Altitude Encoder Wiring" Which transponder do you have? -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 5:58 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Altitude encoder All- Do I need an altitude encoder with a mode C transponder, or is that an option? Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.