---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/06/08: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:22 AM - Re: We ask good questions (burbby) 2. 11:52 AM - Chat Room Reminder (George Race) 3. 12:06 PM - Zenith : [ Lynn Dingfelder ] : New Email List PhotoShare Available! (Email List PhotoShares) 4. 12:30 PM - Zenith : [ John Davis ] : New Email List PhotoShare Available! (Email List PhotoShares) 5. 12:57 PM - Zenith : [ Grant Corriveau ] : New Email List PhotoShare Available! (Email List PhotoShares) 6. 01:00 PM - Zenith : [ Kenneth H. Buchmann ] : New Email List PhotoShare Available! (Email List PhotoShares) 7. 01:08 PM - A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts (George Race) 8. 01:14 PM - Zenith : [ Philip Smith ] : New Email List PhotoShare Available! (Email List PhotoShares) 9. 01:20 PM - Zenith : [ Godo Barrenechea ] : New Email List PhotoShare Available! (Email List PhotoShares) 10. 01:46 PM - Re: A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts (Gig Giacona) 11. 02:02 PM - Re: A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts (Paul Mulwitz) 12. 03:03 PM - Re: A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts (Joe Stevenson) 13. 03:11 PM - Re: A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts (Rick Lindstrom) 14. 04:29 PM - Re: A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts (PatrickW) 15. 04:31 PM - Re: A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts (Dan Wilde) 16. 05:50 PM - Re: A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts (Gary Gower) 17. 06:44 PM - ETCHING PRIMER/ CLEANER (Southern Reflections) 18. 07:46 PM - Re: A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts (JohnDRead@aol.com) 19. 08:56 PM - Re: A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts (T. Graziano) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:22:56 AM PST US From: burbby Subject: Re: Zenith-List: We ask good questions After reading all the debates on the compass issue I respect both sides alt hough in my plane there will be a whiskey compass if nothing else to make m e feel better.-- I'm from the old steam guage school and will be using the new Dnon in my 601.-- With this said three instruments will be adde d for my piece of mind.-- AS,- Alt, and compass.-----A elec trical failure is the least of my worries due to backup systems in place. -- But, in the unlikely event of something of a internal failure leaves nothing to work with..-- This is a personal-issue so to each his own .- Also I will want to certify for night flight.-- - Gary Bassham (N7601) Millsap, TX --- On Sun, 10/5/08, Dirk Zahtilla wrote: From: Dirk Zahtilla Subject: Re: Zenith-List: We ask good questions That's a good point to know.. also means you canput in the cheapie compass to get through the FAA stuff then mount it on your lawn mower after! Dirk > Not permanently, you can install the necessary equipment any time after > the airworthiness certificate is issued in order to comply with the > operating limitations for night flight or even IFR flight. The Op Lims > state that the aircraft may only be flown Day VFR unless equipped with > the minimum equipment required by 91.205.> =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:52:35 AM PST US From: "George Race" Subject: Zenith-List: Chat Room Reminder Please join us for our Monday evening chat room starting around 8:00 PM Eastern Time. http://www.mykitairplane.com/chat/ George Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:06:57 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith : [ Lynn Dingfelder ] : New Email List PhotoShare Available! From: Email List PhotoShares (Listers - Sorry for the delay in processing this Photoshare; all of the incoming Photoshares where getting caught by my email client's spam filter. I wondered why nobody had posted a Photoshare in a long while... I've fixed the filter and Photoshares should be processed in a normal period of time now. -Matt) A new Email List PhotoShare is available: Poster: Lynn Dingfelder Lists: Zenith-List Subject: Canopy Fastening http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/ding@tbscc.com.10.06.2008 ---------------------------------------------------------- o Main PhotoShare Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a PhotoShare If you wish to submit a PhotoShare of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com ---------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:30:50 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith : [ John Davis ] : New Email List PhotoShare Available! From: Email List PhotoShares (Listers - Sorry for the delay in processing this Photoshare; all of the incoming Photoshares where getting caught by my email client's spam filter. I wondered why nobody had posted a Photoshare in a long while... I've fixed the filter and Photoshares should be processed in a normal period of time now. -Matt) A new Email List PhotoShare is available: Poster: John Davis Lists: Zenith-List Subject: Post-crash photos, 601XL, Yuba City, CA http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/johnd@data-tech.com.10.06.2008 ---------------------------------------------------------- o Main PhotoShare Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a PhotoShare If you wish to submit a PhotoShare of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com ---------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:57:34 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith : [ Grant Corriveau ] : New Email List PhotoShare Available! From: Email List PhotoShares (Listers - Sorry for the delay in processing this Photoshare; all of the incoming Photoshares where getting caught by my email client's spam filter. I wondered why nobody had posted a Photoshare in a long while... I've fixed the filter and Photoshares should be processed in a normal period of time now. -Matt) A new Email List PhotoShare is available: Poster: Grant Corriveau Lists: Zenith-List Subject: After Another Lovely Evening Flight... http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/grant.corriveau@telus.net.10.06.2008 ---------------------------------------------------------- o Main PhotoShare Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a PhotoShare If you wish to submit a PhotoShare of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com ---------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:00:35 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith : [ Kenneth H. Buchmann ] : New Email List PhotoShare Available! From: Email List PhotoShares (Listers - Sorry for the delay in processing this Photoshare; all of the incoming Photoshares where getting caught by my email client's spam filter. I wondered why nobody had posted a Photoshare in a long while... I've fixed the filter and Photoshares should be processed in a normal period of time now. -Matt) A new Email List PhotoShare is available: Poster: Kenneth H. Buchmann Lists: Zenith-List,Zenith701801-List Subject: TRIO autopilot in Ch 701 http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/buchdvm@fidnet.com.10.06.2008 ---------------------------------------------------------- o Main PhotoShare Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a PhotoShare If you wish to submit a PhotoShare of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com ---------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:10 PM PST US From: "George Race" Subject: Zenith-List: A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts Hello to all: First, I am OK, a bit stiff and achy here and there but no cuts or broken bones. Let me first say that I am a 100 hour pilot. My training was done in a LSA with emphasis on short and soft field landings and takeoffs. You see my instructor knew what I was going to be flying, and was a 200 hour or better 701 pilot. He really prepared me for my first flight and gave me the confidence that I would not have any problem flying it based on my flying skills. As far as what happened, it all happened so fast it is really hard to recall how it started to go wrong. I had been to a grass strip fly in earlier in the day. Left there and went about 25 miles to another grass strip to see how a friend was doing on his 701 build. Came back to my home area and decided to do a few short/soft field landings on a 1700 foot grass strip about a mile from my home strip. (home strip is 550 feet grass) I did at least 8 steep approach short field landings, all very comfortable and was going to head for home. I though one more would be fun, as I was enjoying the touch and go on the "long" grass strip. Everything looked good and then at the last second the airplane seemed to balloon up and nose over. I heard the crunch of the front gear assembly, saw the prop break into pieces and the engine quit. Was sliding down the grass nose low and then all of a sudden, it seemed like it was in slow motion, the airplane turned over on it's back. There I was hanging from the seat belt upside down. I actually remembered to turn off the fuel valve and the master switches, then opened the door and released my belt. Did not even realize that I was going out the right side door. There was very little wind at the time. I remember looking at the wind sock on the way by at the end of the runway, it was about half extended. I was into the wind, maybe gusting upward 5 to 10 MPH at the most, and I was almost head on into it. It all happened so quickly that all I can do is speculate now as to the reason. A couple of thoughts, after the fact. The flair seemed to be OK and I remember doing a quick glance at the left wheel, which I usually did, and saw that I was probably about 3 feet above the turf. My speed was holding about 40 with 1/2 flaps on the approach so I am guessing my touchdown was at about that speed. There was what seemed to be a normal touchdown and then the apparent bounce and nose over occurred. Did I pull back on the stick after the touchdown? Did I fly into a small down draft? Was there a wind gust that pushed the nose higher? Was it just a bad landing due to some kind of pilot error? As I was landing into the wind, maybe I should have added about 10 MPH to compensate for the light gusting head wind! I guess I will never know exactly what caused it, but it happened, and I am very thankful that I was able to walk away from the crash without as much as a bruise, except for a very, very, bruised ego. Now for the condition of the airframe. I cannot say enough about the integrity of the CH701. One would think that this kind of an accident would completely crumble the airframe. I spent yesterday taking the airplane apart and bringing it home. To my surprise there is very little damage, compared to what I thought I would find. One wing tip and slat tip is badly crumpled, the fiberglass wind tip shattered. Must have hit that wing tip on the way over before settling down on it's back. There is about an inch deep crumple at the very tip of the rudder, where it impacted the ground. The rudder mounts were undamaged, as were the stabilizer and elevator. Both wing root covers are very badly crumpled, but the damage seems to stop at the outboard attachment point of the wing root covers at the rib. The top of the wings look as good as when they were first attached, except for the one wing tip that is shattered. The bottom of the wings are both showing some sheet metal buckling in a few places. At the front strut attachment points, the attachment bracket that is connected to the spar is bent into the shape of an "S", but not the rear attachment points. All in all, there is very little wing damage as compared to my expectations. The fuselage is in perfect condition. Everything straight and no visible crumpling of sheet metal anywhere. The top mounted VHF antenna was into the dirt about 6 inches, but completely unbent. Where you find the most damage is at the front wheel area. The axel is badly bent, and the fork is completely bent and twisted. From the grease mark it looks like the bungee stretched about 4 inches. There is a very slight "bubble" in the firewall, near the front wheel strut attachment point. And oh yes, the very front attachment point, where the wheel strut goes into the fuselage is bent up about 1/2 and inch. That is the only damage I can see to the fuselage, very minor. Needless to say, there is not much left of the prop, just a couple of splintered stubs. I did check the run out of the Jabiru 2200 crank where it exits the engine. I set the indicator at 1/10,000 and rotated the crank. Absolutely true! I am impressed with the way that little engine is built. Of course the engine was probably at idle when the strike occurred, and the tips of the prop took the brunt of the force as the engine quit. Pictures are posted on the chat site at: www.mykitairplane.com/chat What about the future? First and foremost I have decided, after living my long time dream to build and fly my own airplane, that although flying is fun and enjoyable it is not going to be in my future. I have had two small incidents now and just am not willing to take the chance on a number three. I am going to sell the airplane. I am sure it will make someone else a great starter project without having to invest a great deal of money, as compared to buying all new and building it, to get it repaired and in the air. It was meticulously built with attention paid to every detail, as many of you have seem from my pictures on the web site. I will stay in touch through the Zenith Lists, and where I can, offer advise based on my experience building the Zenith CH701. Thanks for the concern and kind words from the many of you that I have heard from already. Fly safely and with care, George Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:14:04 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith : [ Philip Smith ] : New Email List PhotoShare Available! From: Email List PhotoShares (Listers - Sorry for the delay in processing this Photoshare; all of the incoming Photoshares where getting caught by my email client's spam filter. I wondered why nobody had posted a Photoshare in a long while... I've fixed the filter and Photoshares should be processed in a normal period of time now. -Matt) A new Email List PhotoShare is available: Poster: Philip Smith Lists: Zenith-List Subject: Firewall Seal Design http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/madriver@wildblue.net.10.06.2008 ---------------------------------------------------------- o Main PhotoShare Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a PhotoShare If you wish to submit a PhotoShare of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com ---------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:20:04 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith : [ Godo Barrenechea ] : New Email List PhotoShare Available! From: Email List PhotoShares (Listers - Sorry for the delay in processing this Photoshare; all of the incoming Photoshares where getting caught by my email client's spam filter. I wondered why nobody had posted a Photoshare in a long while... I've fixed the filter and Photoshares should be processed in a normal period of time now. -Matt) A new Email List PhotoShare is available: Poster: Godo Barrenechea Lists: Zenith-List,Zenith601-List Subject: New Canopy for 601XL http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/godofredo.barrenechea@hp.com.10.06.2008 ---------------------------------------------------------- o Main PhotoShare Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a PhotoShare If you wish to submit a PhotoShare of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com ---------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:45 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts From: "Gig Giacona" George, glad you are OK. Is there any chance you hit something that popped the nose up? I did once see a guy hit a turtle on a grass field and you would have sworn he pulled the nose up. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7622#207622 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:18 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts Hi George, Thank you for the detailed post about your experience. I'm glad you came through your accident with little physical damage. Alas, it seems you suffered a great psychological injury which warrants professional attention. It makes me sad that you have decided to give up flying because of your accident. I hope you reconsider that decision after you have had some time to recover from the immediate impacts of your experience. I hope the remaining comments I make will help you change your mind. Let me say that I have given up flying, temporarily, several times over the years. In each case quitting resulted from some kind of bad flying experience. Some times it was weather related. Some times it was experience with instructors. Some times it was just loss of personal interest. Each time I quit I didn't fly for many years. Still, flying is an obsession with me and I am doing it again. Let me make a couple of very pointed comments that will probably get me flamed for some time. I hope those readers who are very sensitive to negative thoughts will stop reading at this point. First, I think you got trapped into believing that the slow speeds achieved by the 701 meant it was easy to fly. I suppose that is true to some point, but the 701 is a very specialized design meant for doing very specialized and difficult flying. It is very "High Performance" in the low speed domain. Like all high performance flying, I think it calls for superb skills and experience on the pilot's part to reach the ultimate results. I don't think 100 hours suggests this level of pilot skill has been reached. My point here is to say you have been doing very difficult and dangerous flying while believing it was easy and well within your training and experience. Second, I want to make a point that is not really directed at you personally. It is that builders of kit planes need a great deal of skill to complete their projects. Unfortunately, this skill is completely unrelated to pilot skills. We all are vulnerable to believing the fallacy that since we have been able to complete our building projects that qualifies us to fly our planes. Fortunately for Zenith builders, our planes are relatively easy to fly so we don't fall victim to this problem very often. It would be a lot worse if we were building BD-5s or Pitts specials. The bottom line here is we should start over from scratch when evaluating our pilot skills and weighing them against the missions we choose to fly. If we don't think someone who rents airplanes would allow us to perform the mission then we should be very reluctant to authorize ourselves to fly the same mission. My last comment for you, George, is I hope you change your position from giving up flying to changing your flying style to one that is more normal and easy to achieve. By this I mean renting Cessna's or other well proven commercial airplanes and flying from long wide paved runways. As your skills improve you can reduce the length and width of paved runway you use and eventually consider using long wide turf runways. Only after years of experience with this more normal flying should you consider the very difficult mission of flying into short turf airfields. Good luck, Paul XL getting close At 01:01 PM 10/6/2008, you wrote: >Hello to all: >First, I am OK, a bit stiff and achy here and there but no cuts or broken >bones. > >Let me first say that I am a 100 hour pilot. My training was done in a LSA >with emphasis on short and soft field landings and takeoffs. You see my >instructor knew what I was going to be flying, and was a 200 hour or better >701 pilot. He really prepared me for my first flight and gave me the >confidence that I would not have any problem flying it based on my flying >skills. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:59 PM PST US From: Joe Stevenson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts George,=0A------ I don=A2t know you and may in fact never meet you but I do know you=A2ve experienced a traumatic incident which at this p oint is overshadowing all else in your life. I suggest you do the following , take the time to rebuild your airplane, going over it in the greatest det ail. While you are doing this go and watch other=A2s flying their airplanes and pick a really nice day to go up with a fried for some dual time. Then when you have completed the rebuild on your airplane set it aside for a whi le before making any decisions on selling it or flying it. In doing this yo u make a controlled and managed decision on your future course of action. F or what it=A2s worth at this point I=A2m not convinced that you did anythin g wrong. Sometimes fate just rears up and takes a slap at us in order to sc are or humble us. Take care.=0ABest,=0AJoe=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Messag e ----=0AFrom: George Race =0ATo: zenith-list@mat ronics.com=0ASent: Monday, October 6, 2008 3:01:52 PM=0ASubject: Zenith-Lis t: A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts=0A=0A--> Zenith-List message post ed by: "George Race" =0A=0AHello to all:=0AFirst, I am OK, a bit stiff and achy here and there but no cuts or broken=0Abones . =0A=0ALet me first say that I am a 100 hour pilot. My training was done i n a LSA=0Awith emphasis on short and soft field landings and takeoffs. You see my=0Ainstructor knew what I was going to be flying, and was a 200 hour or better=0A701 pilot. He really prepared me for my first flight and gave m e the=0Aconfidence that I would not have any problem flying it based on my flying=0Askills.=0A=0AAs far as what happened, it all happened so fast it i s really hard to recall=0Ahow it started to go wrong. I had been to a grass strip fly in earlier in=0Athe day. Left there and went about 25 miles to a nother grass strip to see=0Ahow a friend was doing on his 701 build. Came b ack to my home area and=0Adecided to do a few short/soft field landings on a 1700 foot grass strip=0Aabout a mile from my home strip. (home strip is 5 50 feet grass) I did at=0Aleast 8 steep approach short field landings, all very comfortable and was=0Agoing to head for home. I though one more would be fun, as I was enjoying=0Athe touch and go on the "long" grass strip.=0A =0AEverything looked good and then at the last second the airplane seemed t o=0Aballoon up and nose over. I heard the crunch of the front gear assembly ,=0Asaw the prop break into pieces and the engine quit. Was sliding down th e=0Agrass nose low and then all of a sudden, it seemed like it was in slow =0Amotion, the airplane turned over on it's back. There I was hanging from the=0Aseat belt upside down. I actually remembered to turn off the fuel val ve and=0Athe master switches, then opened the door and released my belt. Di d not=0Aeven realize that I was going out the right side door.=0A=0AThere w as very little wind at the time. I remember looking at the wind sock=0Aon t he way by at the end of the runway, it was about half extended. I was=0Aint o the wind, maybe gusting upward 5 to 10 MPH at the most, and I was=0Aalmos t head on into it. It all happened so quickly that all I can do is=0Aspecul ate now as to the reason. A couple of thoughts, after the fact. The=0Aflair seemed to be OK and I remember doing a quick glance at the left wheel,=0Aw hich I usually did, and saw that I was probably about 3 feet above the=0Atu rf. My speed was holding about 40 with 1/2 flaps on the approach so I am=0A guessing my touchdown was at about that speed. There was what seemed to be =0Aa normal touchdown and then the apparent bounce and nose over occurred. Did=0AI pull back on the stick after the touchdown? Did I fly into a small down=0Adraft? Was there a wind gust that pushed the nose higher? Was it jus t a=0Abad landing due to some kind of pilot error? As I was landing into th e=0Awind, maybe I should have added about 10 MPH to compensate for the ligh t=0Agusting head wind! I guess I will never know exactly what caused it, bu t it=0Ahappened, and I am very thankful that I was able to walk away from t he crash=0Awithout as much as a bruise, except for a very, very, bruised eg o.=0A=0ANow for the condition of the airframe. I cannot say enough about th e=0Aintegrity of the CH701. One would think that this kind of an accident w ould=0Acompletely crumble the airframe. I spent yesterday taking the airpla ne=0Aapart and bringing it home. To my surprise there is very little damage ,=0Acompared to what I thought I would find. One wing tip and slat tip is b adly=0Acrumpled, the fiberglass wind tip shattered. Must have hit that wing tip on=0Athe way over before settling down on it's back. There is about an inch deep=0Acrumple at the very tip of the rudder, where it impacted the g round. The=0Arudder mounts were undamaged, as were the stabilizer and eleva tor. Both=0Awing root covers are very badly crumpled, but the damage seems to stop at=0Athe outboard attachment point of the wing root covers at the r ib. The top=0Aof the wings look as good as when they were first attached, e xcept for the=0Aone wing tip that is shattered. The bottom of the wings are both showing=0Asome sheet metal buckling in a few places.- At the front strut=0Aattachment points, the attachment bracket that is connected to the spar is=0Abent=0Ainto the shape of an "S", but not the rear attachment poin ts. All in all,=0Athere =0Ais very little wing damage as compared to my exp ectations. The=0Afuselage is in perfect condition. Everything straight and no visible=0Acrumpling of sheet metal anywhere. The top mounted VHF antenna was into the=0Adirt about 6 inches, but completely unbent. Where you find the most damage=0Ais at the front wheel area. The axel is badly bent, and t he fork is=0Acompletely bent and twisted. From the grease mark it looks lik e the bungee=0Astretched about 4 inches. There is a very slight "bubble" in the firewall,=0Anear the front wheel strut attachment point. And oh yes, t he very front=0Aattachment point, where the wheel strut goes into the fusel age is bent up=0Aabout 1/2 and inch. That is the only damage I can see to t he fuselage, very=0Aminor. Needless to say, there is not much left of the p rop, just a couple=0Aof splintered stubs. I did check the run out of the Ja biru 2200 crank where=0Ait exits the engine. I set the indicator at 1/10,00 0 and rotated the crank.=0AAbsolutely true! I am impressed with the way tha t little engine is built.=0AOf course the engine was probably at idle when the strike occurred, and the=0Atips of the prop took the brunt of the force as the engine quit.=0A=0APictures are posted on the chat site at:- www.m ykitairplane.com/chat=0A=0AWhat about the future? First and foremost I have decided, after living my=0Along time dream to build and fly my own airplan e, that although flying is=0Afun and enjoyable it is not going to be in my future. I have had two small=0Aincidents now and just am not willing to tak e the chance on a number three.=0AI am going to sell the airplane. I am sur e it will make someone else a=0Agreat starter project without having to inv est a great deal of money, as=0Acompared to buying all new and building it, to get it repaired and in the=0Aair. It was meticulously built with attent ion paid to every detail, as many=0Aof you have seem from my pictures on th e web site.=0A=0AI will stay in touch through the Zenith Lists, and where I can, offer advise=0Abased on my experience building the Zenith CH701.=0A =0AThanks for the concern and kind words from the many of you that I have h eard=0Afrom already. =0A=0AFly safely and with care,=0AGeorge=0ADo Not Arch - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List ========0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:11:55 PM PST US From: Rick Lindstrom Subject: Re: Zenith-List: A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts George! Very happy to hear that your landing resulted in no serious, permanent injury to the crew! Well, there is the ego to consider. Mine is still bruised from a groundloop in a Wilga over 10 years ago. Up until that point, I could claim over 20 years of flying without making any airplane unflyable. That all changed in a heartbeat, and I've spent countless hour trying to figure out exactly why it happened. Guess what? The jury's still out, and the only way to know for sure would be to borrow Mr. Peabody's Way Back machine. Which probably won't happen in my lifetime. Your tale reminds me of flying a '68 Cardinal way back when, which had a very effective stabilator. More than once, if I landed just a tad too slow to keep the nose up on roll out, the nosewheel would bang down, and the airplane would lift off again in ground effect. With the nose now pointed slightly down, I'd hastily apply too much back elevator to raise the nose and stall the wing, and the whole sequence would repeat itself. I finally learned to carry a tiny bit of power through the flare, making the arrival a whole lot more predictable (and saving the firewall from wrinkles). This "bump and soar" routine was common to that model year Cardinal, and no doubt responsible for a bunch of sheet metal repairs. When I first flew the 601 in 2007, my Cardinal experiences came right back to me. The really cool thing about the Zenith airplanes is that they can fly real slow. The not so cool thing is that they can fly real slow, and at speeds that seem absurd to someone transitioning from a certified airplane. So when your brain says "no way we can fly THIS slow" the airplane is saying "oh, yeah? watch this!" And frankly, your first instinct is NOT to add power to arrest the second touchdown, it's to yank back to keep that nose from plowing a new furrow. Which, of course, it does. Parallel parking doesn't come naturally to people, either. It's something that takes some trial and error, and a good measure of experience. I've never landed a 701, but after looking at all of that wing area and those nifty leading edge slats, I'll bet that it really likes to fly at even slower speeds than the 601. Toss in a gust or two and a short field situation, and it's not so mysterious at all as to what happened to you a few days ago. Yep, you pranged your airplane that you spent so much time building. But it can be fixed. I really hope you take a deep breath (or two) and let your adrenaline get back down to normal before deciding to give up flying. We really need people like you building, flying, accruing flight time, and honing their skills. And thanks for providing a first hand learning experience for the rest of us. Many wouldn't have the courage to make that post (with pictures even!). Best, Rick Lindstrom N42KP / Corvair -----Original Message----- >From: George Race >Sent: Oct 6, 2008 4:01 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts > > >Hello to all: >First, I am OK, a bit stiff and achy here and there but no cuts or broken >bones... > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:29:57 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts From: "PatrickW" Thanks for posting your experience, George. Take heart in that other people here will learn from you. Looking forward to reading about your thoughts and ideas in the coming days. No matter what you decide to do, remember you have many friends here. Glad you're OK. - Pat -------- Patrick 601XL/Corvair N63PZ (reserved) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7659#207659 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:52 PM PST US From: Dan Wilde Subject: Re: Zenith-List: A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts George's story reminds me of the experience I had a couple of months ago in my 701. I came in with flaps 15 at idle and about 45 mph (est) and went to flair but with little effect. I was lucky and landed flat with all three wheels hitting at the same time so the bounce up was level. Something similar may have happened to George but with the nose dropping through to hit first. Based on information on this list, I bought the VG's for the elevator and this seemed to cure the problem. I now can land at the same speed and have flair authority even with the engine at idle. Dan Wilde N948DW ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:50:19 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts Hello George, - We all are very glad you came out in good shape,- I realy hope you contin ue flying.- - A great friend and-local pilot/homebuilder and-Instructor--told me this, the first-time I broke my ultralight in a deadstick landing (fuel -problem):- Aviation is not a hobby, is a disease..--- Chronic Disease. - The next Saturday he invite me to do some touch and goes in his ultralight trainer, until I was able to grease one, He was patient but firm,- in my 5th landing I was feeling great and greased it,- he smiled and said, "now we can park the plane anytime".- I Will never forget that day. - Welcome to the-IHLS Club,- we are members-several good friends in thi s list also. - Saludos Gary Gower Flying from Chapala. Mexico Founder President and Member of the "International Hard Landing Survivers C lub"- Membership RESTRICTED, the less members the better, Please land safe...- :-)- :-)- :-) Do not archive. --- On Mon, 10/6/08, Paul Mulwitz wrote: From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts Hi George, Thank you for the detailed post about your experience. I'm glad you came through your accident with little physical damage. Alas, it seems you suffered a great psychological injury which warrants professional attention. It makes me sad that you have decided to give up flying because of your accident. I hope you reconsider that decision after you have had some time to recover from the immediate impacts of your experience. I hope the remaining comments I make will help you change your mind. Let me say that I have given up flying, temporarily, several times over the years. In each case quitting resulted from some kind of bad flying experience. Some times it was weather related. Some times it was experience with instructors. Some times it was just loss of personal interest. Each time I quit I didn't fly for many years. Still, flying is an obsession with me and I am doing it again. Let me make a couple of very pointed comments that will probably get me flamed for some time. I hope those readers who are very sensitive to negative thoughts will stop reading at this point. First, I think you got trapped into believing that the slow speeds achieved by the 701 meant it was easy to fly. I suppose that is true to some point, but the 701 is a very specialized design meant for doing very specialized and difficult flying. It is very "High Performance" in the low speed domain. Like all high performance flying, I think it calls for superb skills and experience on the pilot's part to reach the ultimate results. I don't think 100 hours suggests this level of pilot skill has been reached. My point here is to say you have been doing very difficult and dangerous flying while believing it was easy and well within your training and experience. Second, I want to make a point that is not really directed at you personally. It is that builders of kit planes need a great deal of skill to complete their projects. Unfortunately, this skill is completely unrelated to pilot skills. We all are vulnerable to believing the fallacy that since we have been able to complete our building projects that qualifies us to fly our planes. Fortunately for Zenith builders, our planes are relatively easy to fly so we don't fall victim to this problem very often. It would be a lot worse if we were building BD-5s or Pitts specials. The bottom line here is we should start over from scratch when evaluating our pilot skills and weighing them against the missions we choose to fly. If we don't think someone who rents airplanes would allow us to perform the mission then we should be very reluctant to authorize ourselves to fly the same mission. My last comment for you, George, is I hope you change your position from giving up flying to changing your flying style to one that is more normal and easy to achieve. By this I mean renting Cessna's or other well proven commercial airplanes and flying from long wide paved runways. As your skills improve you can reduce the length and width of paved runway you use and eventually consider using long wide turf runways. Only after years of experience with this more normal flying should you consider the very difficult mission of flying into short turf airfields. Good luck, Paul XL getting close At 01:01 PM 10/6/2008, you wrote: >Hello to all: >First, I am OK, a bit stiff and achy here and there but no cuts or broken >bones. > >Let me first say that I am a 100 hour pilot. My training was done in a LSA >with emphasis on short and soft field landings and takeoffs. You see my >instructor knew what I was going to be flying, and was a 200 hour or bette r >701 pilot. He really prepared me for my first flight and gave me the >confidence that I would not have any problem flying it based on my flying >skills. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:01 PM PST US From: "Southern Reflections" Subject: Zenith-List: ETCHING PRIMER/ CLEANER What is the best primer in a can to use,and what is the best cleaner to use to prep the metal? Joe N101HD ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:35 PM PST US From: JohnDRead@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts Hi George; Glad to hear you are OK after your incident. Sorry to hear though that you are giving up your dream. do not archive. John Read Phone: 303-648-3261 Fax: 303-648-3262 Cell: 719-494-4567 In a message dated 10/6/2008 2:09:20 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, mykitairplane@mrrace.com writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Race" Hello to all: First, I am OK, a bit stiff and achy here and there but no cuts or broken bones. Let me first say that I am a 100 hour pilot. My training was done in a LSA with emphasis on short and soft field landings and takeoffs. You see my instructor knew what I was going to be flying, and was a 200 hour or better 701 pilot. He really prepared me for my first flight and gave me the confidence that I would not have any problem flying it based on my flying skills. As far as what happened, it all happened so fast it is really hard to recall how it started to go wrong. I had been to a grass strip fly in earlier in the day. Left there and went about 25 miles to another grass strip to see how a friend was doing on his 701 build. Came back to my home area and decided to do a few short/soft field landings on a 1700 foot grass strip about a mile from my home strip. (home strip is 550 feet grass) I did at least 8 steep approach short field landings, all very comfortable and was going to head for home. I though one more would be fun, as I was enjoying the touch and go on the "long" grass strip. Everything looked good and then at the last second the airplane seemed to balloon up and nose over. I heard the crunch of the front gear assembly, saw the prop break into pieces and the engine quit. Was sliding down the grass nose low and then all of a sudden, it seemed like it was in slow motion, the airplane turned over on it's back. There I was hanging from the seat belt upside down. I actually remembered to turn off the fuel valve and the master switches, then opened the door and released my belt. Did not even realize that I was going out the right side door. There was very little wind at the time. I remember looking at the wind sock on the way by at the end of the runway, it was about half extended. I was into the wind, maybe gusting upward 5 to 10 MPH at the most, and I was almost head on into it. It all happened so quickly that all I can do is speculate now as to the reason. A couple of thoughts, after the fact. The flair seemed to be OK and I remember doing a quick glance at the left wheel, which I usually did, and saw that I was probably about 3 feet above the turf. My speed was holding about 40 with 1/2 flaps on the approach so I am guessing my touchdown was at about that speed. There was what seemed to be a normal touchdown and then the apparent bounce and nose over occurred. Did I pull back on the stick after the touchdown? Did I fly into a small down draft? Was there a wind gust that pushed the nose higher? Was it just a bad landing due to some kind of pilot error? As I was landing into the wind, maybe I should have added about 10 MPH to compensate for the light gusting head wind! I guess I will never know exactly what caused it, but it happened, and I am very thankful that I was able to walk away from the crash without as much as a bruise, except for a very, very, bruised ego. Now for the condition of the airframe. I cannot say enough about the integrity of the CH701. One would think that this kind of an accident would completely crumble the airframe. I spent yesterday taking the airplane apart and bringing it home. To my surprise there is very little damage, compared to what I thought I would find. One wing tip and slat tip is badly crumpled, the fiberglass wind tip shattered. Must have hit that wing tip on the way over before settling down on it's back. There is about an inch deep crumple at the very tip of the rudder, where it impacted the ground. The rudder mounts were undamaged, as were the stabilizer and elevator. Both wing root covers are very badly crumpled, but the damage seems to stop at the outboard attachment point of the wing root covers at the rib. The top of the wings look as good as when they were first attached, except for the one wing tip that is shattered. The bottom of the wings are both showing some sheet metal buckling in a few places. At the front strut attachment points, the attachment bracket that is connected to the spar is bent into the shape of an "S", but not the rear attachment points. All in all, there is very little wing damage as compared to my expectations. The fuselage is in perfect condition. Everything straight and no visible crumpling of sheet metal anywhere. The top mounted VHF antenna was into the dirt about 6 inches, but completely unbent. Where you find the most damage is at the front wheel area. The axel is badly bent, and the fork is completely bent and twisted. From the grease mark it looks like the bungee stretched about 4 inches. There is a very slight "bubble" in the firewall, near the front wheel strut attachment point. And oh yes, the very front attachment point, where the wheel strut goes into the fuselage is bent up about 1/2 and inch. That is the only damage I can see to the fuselage, very minor. Needless to say, there is not much left of the prop, just a couple of splintered stubs. I did check the run out of the Jabiru 2200 crank where it exits the engine. I set the indicator at 1/10,000 and rotated the crank. Absolutely true! I am impressed with the way that little engine is built. Of course the engine was probably at idle when the strike occurred, and the tips of the prop took the brunt of the force as the engine quit. Pictures are posted on the chat site at: www.mykitairplane.com/chat What about the future? First and foremost I have decided, after living my long time dream to build and fly my own airplane, that although flying is fun and enjoyable it is not going to be in my future. I have had two small incidents now and just am not willing to take the chance on a number three. I am going to sell the airplane. I am sure it will make someone else a great starter project without having to invest a great deal of money, as compared to buying all new and building it, to get it repaired and in the air. It was meticulously built with attention paid to every detail, as many of you have seem from my pictures on the web site. I will stay in touch through the Zenith Lists, and where I can, offer advise based on my experience building the Zenith CH701. Thanks for the concern and kind words from the many of you that I have heard from already. Fly safely and with care, George Do Not Archive **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out! (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000001) ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:30 PM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: A Difficult Landing and After Thoughts Rick Lindstrom" WROTE: "When I first flew the 601 in 2007, my Cardinal experiences came right back to me. The really cool thing about the Zenith airplanes is that they can fly real slow. The not so cool thing is that they can fly real slow, and at speeds that seem absurd to someone transitioning from a certified airplane. So when your brain says "no way we can fly THIS slow" the airplane is saying "oh, yeah? watch this!" And frankly, your first instinct is NOT to add power to arrest the second touchdown, it's to yank back to keep that nose from plowing a new furrow. Which, of course, it does." Rick, I agree! George, I also second Rick's statement: "Very happy to hear that your landing resulted in no serious, permanent injury to the crew! Well, there is the ego to consider." Also, I hope you do not quit flying. For all, FWIW, In My POH I have the following statement for my XL CAUTION WATCH SINK RATE AND AIR SPEED: with the landing gear geometry of 493TG, a High sink rate at touch down will result in the nose gear causing bouncing the airplane airborne in a nose high attitude. IF THIS HAPPENS GO AROUND or initiate a BOUNCE RECOVERY! A NOSE WHEEL LANDING or Pilot Induced Oscillation (PIO) can result under this condition if landing is attempted. also, relative to SLOW speed takeoffs, from my POH: C. SOFT FIELD TAKEOFF - The objective of a soft field takeoff is to transfer as much weight as possible to the wings as quickly as possible to minimize wheel friction with the ground. - 1/2 flaps max or ZERO flaps, to minimize weight of nose gear to ground, is recommended for soft field takeoffs. Keep the airplane moving over soft ground to keep from sinking in. - Maintain full aft stick* during takeoff run until nose comes up to the takeoff attitude. This minimizes/eliminates nose wheel contact with the ground. - Maintain a slightly high attitude until the aircraft is airborne, and then lower the nose to accelerate in ground effect to flying airspeed. - Accelerate to climb speed, raise nose to climb-out attitude and retract flaps above 65 kts. *CAUTION Flight testing has shown that, due to the main gear placement on N493TG, once the nose starts to rotate it can rotate rapidly to an extreme nose high attitude with the engine pulling the aircraft airborne. When this happens, control authority is marginal due to the low airspeed involved. Once the nose starts to rotate, be prepared to reduce aft stick input rapidly. Tony Graziano 601XL/Jab3300; N493TG; 428 hrs = ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.