---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 11/12/08: 42 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:23 AM - Please Make A Contribution To Support Your Lists (Matt Dralle) 1. 04:17 AM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (n801bh@netzero.com) 2. 05:48 AM - Re: HDS overspeed tests (charles.long@allisontransmission.com) 3. 06:35 AM - Re: Wires and fuses and such (mversteeg) 4. 07:30 AM - Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Sabrina) 5. 07:34 AM - Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (wade jones) 6. 08:03 AM - Re: Wires and fuses and such (Paul Mulwitz) 7. 08:24 AM - Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Sabrina) 8. 09:35 AM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (wade jones) 9. 09:43 AM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (ihab.awad@gmail.com) 10. 09:49 AM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (J.T. Machin) 11. 09:56 AM - Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Sabrina) 12. 10:18 AM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Craig Payne) 13. 10:40 AM - Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Sabrina) 14. 10:43 AM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Paul Mulwitz) 15. 10:51 AM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (J.T. Machin) 16. 11:00 AM - Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (gburdett) 17. 11:06 AM - Re: Amperage draw (jaybannist@cs.com) 18. 11:10 AM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (J.T. Machin) 19. 11:50 AM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Joe Stevenson) 20. 12:09 PM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (jaybannist@cs.com) 21. 12:26 PM - Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Sabrina) 22. 12:36 PM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (steve) 23. 12:48 PM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (jaybannist@cs.com) 24. 12:51 PM - Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Sabrina) 25. 01:33 PM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Juan Vega) 26. 01:37 PM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Juan Vega) 27. 01:38 PM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Juan Vega) 28. 03:24 PM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (steve) 29. 04:10 PM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Roger & Lina Hill) 30. 05:09 PM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (n801bh@netzero.com) 31. 05:39 PM - Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Gig Giacona) 32. 06:01 PM - Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Sabrina) 33. 06:31 PM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Roger & Lina Hill) 34. 06:31 PM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Dirk Zahtilla) 35. 06:48 PM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (J.T. Machin) 36. 07:01 PM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Dirk Zahtilla) 37. 07:05 PM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Paul Mulwitz) 38. 07:57 PM - Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Sabrina) 39. 08:13 PM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Craig Payne) 40. 10:06 PM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Roger & Lina Hill) 41. 10:16 PM - Re: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? (Craig Payne) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:23:02 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith-List: Please Make A Contribution To Support Your Lists Dear Listers, There is no advertising income to support the Matronics Email Lists and Forums. The operation is supported 100% by your personal Contributions during the November Fund Raiser. Please make your Contribution today to support the continued operation and upgrade of these services. You can pick up a really nice gift for making your Contribution too! You may use a Credit Card or Paypal at the Matronics Contribution Site here: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or, you can send a personal check to the following address: Matronics / Matt Dralle PO Box 347 Livermore, CA 94551-0347 Thank you in advance for your generous support! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:17:44 AM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? Sabrina. Since you built the plane I would hope you know it better then anyone el se. When someone, ie, A&P / IA, friend etc, suggests a concept you must speak up and either allow the change or contest it. On my 801 the cable tension on all controls are 30 lbs +/- 5 lbs. You are correct in that because of the geometry of the front gear the tension will increase as t he gear unloads, you would figure someone who is FAA certified should be able to look at the set up and derive the same conclusion. The 801 has a rigid connection between the rudder peddles and the gear but passes t hrough several pulleys and guide blocks on the way to the tail. Also the bearing surface on the rudder pivot is a simple but crude set up. It wo rks fine but when loaded to 40+ lbs of tension I would become very leary of the weak points in the rudder cable path. The point I am trying to m ake is, 1- You know the plane bettter then anyone, Don't let them do som ething that could hurt or kill ya, In my opinion when one sets the cabl e tension too high on a Zenith aircraft the damage could be greater then one set too loose.. YMMV. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "Sabrina" wrote: Hello all... update on my cable tensions... my rudder cable tensions had to be adjusted today... although my IA set the aileron and elevator ten sions to the high range of the AD/service letter, he left the rudder te nsion alone at 27 pounds--his notes seemed to indicate the tension got l ess as the prop was placed in a sling. The tension should increase not decrease. I checked the tensions today and they were 27 with weight on the nose, 3 3 with the prop lifted by hand and nearly 40 with the nose gear stop pla te at rest. Now, they have been adjusted to 25 with the stop plate at rest, but only 12-13 sitting on the tarmac. The O-200a with a metal prop is fairly h eavy so the nose gear stop plate (for those of us with the older nose st rut) is raised about 3/4" at rest. Thanks to all who questioned my last posting of rudder tension numbers o ff line. Happy Veteran's Day to all of you veterans out there--thank you for givi ng my generation the opportunities we enjoy. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213631#213631 ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== _____________________________________________________________ Criminal Lawyers - Click here. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4vB10R3645ds8LMnb6v utULVVHOd4q6FUHZj6Aq3CN1MxQE6/?count=1234567890 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:48:47 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: HDS overspeed tests From: charles.long@allisontransmission.com For the guys with HDS's out there, I flew my bird to 10% over Vne (160 mph + 16 mph = 176 mph) in still air and lightly tapped the stick in all 4 directions. No flutter or other problems. Glad that's over with! Clear Skies! Chuck Long Zodie Rocket N601LE, 180 hr TT ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:18 AM PST US From: mversteeg Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wires and fuses and such Hello Paul, I agree with you that messing with fuses in flight seems a hazardous activity and only should be considered if really needed. But I have a question regarding you clean solution of placing the fuses out of sight. The FAR Sec. 23.1357 Circuit protective devices. says: "(d) If the ability to reset a circuit breaker or replace a fuse is essential to safety in flight, that circuit breaker or fuse must be so located and identified that it can be readily reset or replaced in flight.". Do you know how a DAR would interpret the above rule with respect to you panel design? Clearly the word open for interpretation is "safety in flight", would you consider all electrical systems served by the fuses to fall outside the safety in flight category? Regards, Maarten plans building XL, getting close to closing the second wing > Time: 09:59:45 AM PST US > From: Paul Mulwitz > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wires and fuses and such > > Hi Grant, > > I think your procedure is OK but a bit of overkill. It would work, > but so would using fuses that are sufficiently large to not blow > under normal use. For example, a 10 amp fuse will do a fine job on a > circuit that only draws 1 amp under normal use. > > I have separate fuses for each major electrical or electronic > device. I put them in nice little fuse blocks I got from NAPA. > > My idea is if a fuse blows then it only takes out one device and > repairs should be delayed until after the flight is over. That means > I mounted the fuse blocks behind the instrument panel, the way it is > normally done in cars, rather than cluttering the panel front with them. > > Paul > XL getting close ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:31 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? From: "Sabrina" Mr. Haas, The problem here is that I am sending someone else up in my aircraft every time I authorize a new test flight. It is a very serious task, especially the first flight after each XL fatality. The rudder tension numbers bothered me and that is why I did not sign the aircraft off for the next flight until I figured it out. (Remember now, the IA did not adjust the rudder tensions.) I posted the numbers here and you guys, albeit off list, confirmed my problem with the numbers. Since I have 33% more bearing surface than you guys on the rudder, 5 more pounds of tension than the Haas 30 +/- 5 is nominal, but not optimal. Most newer, light-engine 601s have a higher 'at rest' rudder tension because the stop plate is at or nearly at rest. My nose heavy aircraft, and those with more time on their bungee will see their at rest rudder tensions drop. Each of us should expect a different at rest value and something other than my 12-13 pound differential between rest and flight. Although I know my particular airframe "at rest" better than anyone, and had to defend my modifications to it during hours of meetings last December and January, since I have never flown it or in it, I have to rely upon others in situations involving the feel of the aircraft in flight. For example, the rudder is often described in post-flight briefings as heavy, the ailerons medium and the elevator light as compared to my Cessna 150L. My test pilot actually flies my C150L first and then flies the Sabrina. Although they are different animals, they do share many features including a common engine/prop. This nearly contemporaneous comparison gives me the only "feel" I have for the Sabrina in flight and takes away the "local conditions" factor that might otherwise taint the comparison. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213742#213742 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:33 AM PST US From: "wade jones" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cable Tensions for 601XL? Hello group ,I have been reading the posts concerning the cable tensions ,this should help in correcting the flutter problem (if there is one) .While building my 601XL I did not even consider installing aileron trim .Yes I did use elevator trim .Don't know if this qualifies me in any way ,however I have been flying/maintaining and building planes for 48 years have A/P/ and I/A ratings .We were always taught to rebalance control surfaces after painting .If a little paint will add to flutter what would the weight of an added trim + servo+ hinge do for the balance .It may pay for the readers of this post to break out their AC 43.13-1B acceptable methods techniques, and practices and read 4-36 flutter and vibration precautions . I am certain several will disagree with my post but I urge you to read the AC43.13-1B . Wade Jones South Texas 601XL Franklin 0-235 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Mulwitz" Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 9:48 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cable Tensions for 601XL? > > Hi Juan, > > I think you are confusing cable tension with torque. > > My take on 30 pounds of tension is the amount of tension (pull) you get > when the cable is holding up a 30 pound weight. > > I just got the tensiometer shown in the AD from Aircraft Spruce and > measured the rudder and elevator cables I already have installed (my wings > are not yet on the plane). My results setting the cable tension with no > instruments at all were very close to the desired ones. The rudder was 7 > pounds high and the elevator was 2 pounds low. Perhaps that is why Chris > Heintz originally suggested we didn't really need the fancy instrument to > rig the cables. > > Paul > XL getting close > > > At 07:32 PM 11/11/2008, you wrote: > >>check the page with the cable rigging, its says 30 lbs. that is inch lbs i >>believe, or 4 ft lbs. >> >>Juan > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:02 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wires and fuses and such Hi Maarten, I guess the regulation you cited explains why so many panels are crowded with circuit breakers. In their great wisdom, the FAA seems to have dictated that solution. Fortunately, I don't think part 23 regulations apply to experimental - amateur built airplanes. This may be one of many examples of the notion that the FAA regulations are overly restrictive on certified planes. To directly answer your question, my plans are to limit my flights to Day/VFR. I suspect I could safely conduct such flights without any electrical equipment operating at all. The only really essential piece of electrical gear is the starter motor. My Jabiru is not likely to start any other way. Best regards, Paul At 06:34 AM 11/12/2008, you wrote: >Hello Paul, > >I agree with you that messing with fuses in flight seems a hazardous >activity and >only should be considered if really needed. But I have a question >regarding you >clean solution of placing the fuses out of sight. >The FAR Sec. 23.1357 Circuit protective devices. says: "(d) If the >ability to reset >a circuit breaker or replace a fuse is essential to safety in >flight, that circuit breaker >or fuse must be so located and identified that it can be readily >reset or replaced in >flight.". >Do you know how a DAR would interpret the above rule with respect to you >panel design? Clearly the word open for interpretation is "safety in >flight", would >you consider all electrical systems served by the fuses to fall >outside the safety >in flight category? > >Regards, > Maarten > plans building XL, getting close to closing the second wing ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:55 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? From: "Sabrina" "I did use elevator trim." Wade, Personally, the elevator trim weight bothered me more than the aileron trim. The ailerons, by their nature of one being up and one down, should, if properly tensioned, be easier to dampen in flight than a fluttering elevator. So too, a builder can easily adjust an XL's horizontal stabilizer for proper cruise configuration since it sits so high off the longerons. The aileron trim was a much easier call for me than the elevator trim. If no aileron trim under Par. 4-36, why elevator trim? As to Par 4-36(c) was it the Cardinal that used foam in the elevator trim tab that took on water/ice and threw it off balance? Has anyone had to drill a weep hole in their elevator trim tab to make sure ice does not build up? I ended up gust-locking my elevator in the up position rather than down to keep the ice out. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213753#213753 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:35:12 AM PST US From: "wade jones" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? I knew someone would ask ,if no aileron trim why elevator trim .My answer how many elevator failures has the 601XL had . Wade Jones South Texas 601XL Franklin 0-235 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sabrina" Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 10:24 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? > > "I did use elevator trim." > > Wade, > > Personally, the elevator trim weight bothered me more than the aileron > trim. The ailerons, by their nature of one being up and one down, > should, if properly tensioned, be easier to dampen in flight than a > fluttering elevator. So too, a builder can easily adjust an XL's > horizontal stabilizer for proper cruise configuration since it sits so > high off the longerons. The aileron trim was a much easier call for me > than the elevator trim. If no aileron trim under Par. 4-36, why elevator > trim? > > As to Par 4-36(c) was it the Cardinal that used foam in the elevator trim > tab that took on water/ice and threw it off balance? > > Has anyone had to drill a weep hole in their elevator trim tab to make > sure ice does not build up? I ended up gust-locking my elevator in the > up position rather than down to keep the ice out. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213753#213753 > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:43:31 AM PST US From: ihab.awad@gmail.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? Out of curiosity -- On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 7:29 AM, Sabrina wrote: > The problem here is that I am sending someone else up in my aircraft every time > I authorize a new test flight. So you are having someone else fly off your 40h? Sounds good but, since you have a PPL, why? > Although I know my particular airframe "at rest" better than anyone, and had > to defend my modifications to it during hours of meetings last December and > January ... Again out of curiosity: what meetings? Cheers, Ihab -- Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:30 AM PST US From: "J.T. Machin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? Sabrina, I have to agree with Wade.- Every aircraft's control system is different and and the fact that the ailerons have a balance cable really does not imp act its flutter characteristics because flutter is not really a control sur face deflection that originates from the stick.- The deflection comes fro m a flexing of the system that then stores the spring energy.- This flexi ng and storing of energy and then releasing that energy as the surface unfl exes is a primary driver in the creation of the flutter effect.- That is why stiffer is better when it comes to control systems. That being said, a flutter situation can occur in any of the control surfac es.- As the XL has had several reported instances of aileron flutter, it seems to be the most prevalent flutter mode.- I have not heard of any rep ort instances of elevator flutter.- Also, any additional weight at the tr ailing edge of a control surface will absolutely reduce the flutter speed. - I'm not saying that the XL with aileron trim is unsafe, but it does hav e less flutter margin than one without the trim system. I decided to go with a bungee type trim if required for the the ailerons. Jim Machin 601XL, 0-200 Almost done! --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Sabrina wrote: From: Sabrina Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? "I did use elevator trim." Wade, Personally, the elevator trim weight bothered me more than the aileron trim .. The ailerons, by their nature of one being up and one down, should, if prop erly tensioned, be easier to dampen in flight than a fluttering elevator. So to o, a builder can easily adjust an XL's horizontal stabilizer for proper cruise configuration since it sits so high off the longerons. The aileron trim was a much easier call for me than the elevator trim. If no aileron trim under P ar. 4-36, why elevator trim? As to Par 4-36(c) was it the Cardinal that used foam in the elevator trim t ab that took on water/ice and threw it off balance? Has anyone had to drill a weep hole in their elevator trim tab to make sure ice does not build up? I ended up gust-locking my elevator in the up position rather than down to keep the ice out. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213753#213753 =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:41 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? From: "Sabrina" I strongly disagree, elevator input is suspect in more than one fatal crash. Even if an elevator remains in place, we don't know if the elevator got away and overstressed some other component. We just assume the pilot moved the stick too abruptly. It could be that we are only hearing about the aileron flutter because it can be dampened and the pilot can survive. There has to be a reason why Zenith added 6T3-8, the elevator horn reinforcing strap, to the design. At some point, some aerodynamic action was pulling the two horns apart in flight on the aircraft that was the basis for the design change. 6-T-3 08/05 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213769#213769 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:18:41 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? > There has to be a reason why Zenith added 6T3-8 Has anyone asked Caleb? -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 10:56 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? I strongly disagree, elevator input is suspect in more than one fatal crash. Even if an elevator remains in place, we don't know if the elevator got away and overstressed some other component. We just assume the pilot moved the stick too abruptly. It could be that we are only hearing about the aileron flutter because it can be dampened and the pilot can survive. There has to be a reason why Zenith added 6T3-8, the elevator horn reinforcing strap, to the design. At some point, some aerodynamic action was pulling the two horns apart in flight on the aircraft that was the basis for the design change. 6-T-3 08/05 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213769#213769 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:41 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? From: "Sabrina" Craig, Caleb, No, Roger, Yes. Mr. Machin, I think we are talking apples and oranges. You and Wade are worried about flutter. I am worried about flutter that cannot be overcome. I was taught to dampen aileron or wing flutter by a firm climb combined with a firm bank as one reduces power. I know of no way to dampen elevator flutter other than by reducing power. You talk about the benefits of adding weight to the trailing edge of an elevator being a lower frequency of oscillation but the added mass increases your chances of entering into the situation in the first place. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213772#213772 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:36 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? If that is the part I am thinking of, it was added to comply with the consensus standard for LSA. I was told it was optional, but I installed it anyway. Paul XL getting close do not archive At 09:56 AM 11/12/2008, you wrote: >There has to be a reason why Zenith added 6T3-8, the elevator horn >reinforcing strap, to the design. At some point, some aerodynamic >action was pulling the two horns apart in flight on the aircraft >that was the basis for the design change. 6-T-3 08/05 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:54 AM PST US From: "J.T. Machin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? I'm not sure I agree.- The discussion was whether or not that addition of the trim system had an impact on the flutter characteristics and whether t he impact was greater on the ailerons or the elevator.- I am not really s ure of all the details surrounding the crash due to the down elevator input , but the structural testing Zenith did (negative load test of the wing) an d the subsequent recommendation of reducing the down elevator travel indica tes to me that flutter was not suspected in that case.- -I still stand by my statement that the addition of the aileron trim syst em reduces the flutter margin on 601 XL's.- As aileron flutter is the pri mary concern (at least today's most popular culprit) not installing a non-e ssential system that reduces the margin would seem prudent. Jim --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Sabrina wrote: From: Sabrina Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? I strongly disagree, elevator input is suspect in more than one fatal crash .. Even if an elevator remains in place, we don't know if the elevator got awa y and overstressed some other component. We just assume the pilot moved the stick too abruptly. It could be that we are only hearing about the aileron flutter because it can be dampened and the pilot can survive. There has to be a reason why Zenith added 6T3-8, the elevator horn reinforc ing strap, to the design. At some point, some aerodynamic action was pulling t he two horns apart in flight on the aircraft that was the basis for the design change. 6-T-3 08/05 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213769#213769 =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:00:41 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? From: "gburdett" And I'm a 7 year old Dalmatian whose owner taught to fly using hand signals. Give it a rest. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213775#213775 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:50 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Amperage draw From: jaybannist@cs.com Lynn, Thanks.? That is precisely what I intend to do. Jay -----Original Message----- From: dingfelder Sent: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 8:58 pm Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Amperage draw ????????????? I adjusted my flap limit switches to shut off just very slightly after the flap hits the stop.?This puts a slight twist pressure on the flap to keep it rigid in flight. I popped several fuses? (15 A.) during the adjustment process. As soon as?the motor is stalled, the load is too great. I've had no problems at all with it in flight. ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? Lynn????????? 601XL / Corvair ? ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:40 AM PST US From: "J.T. Machin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? Well, in my opinion, all flutter is very bad.- There is something called limit cycle flutter which is a type of flutter that can be overcome, typica lly referred to as a control surface "buzz". To me, this situation is a kin to standing on the edge of a cliff with the edge crumbling away.- And ye s, reducing speed and changing the aerodynamic loading can stop it.- Ther e are other types of flutter that can be catastrophic in a very short perio d of time and there is nothing you can do to stop it.- The particular flu tter mode dictates which kind you get. Also, there are absolutely no benefits to adding weight of any kind to a tr ailing edge.- The goal is always to reduce the mass behind the hingeline. --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Sabrina wrote: From: Sabrina Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? Craig, Caleb, No, Roger, Yes. Mr. Machin, I think we are talking apples and oranges. You and Wade are worried about flutter. I am worried about flutter that cannot be overcome. I was taught to dampen aileron or wing flutter by a firm climb combined with a firm bank as one reduces power. I know of no way to dampen elevator flutter other than b y reducing power. You talk about the benefits of adding weight to the trail ing edge of an elevator being a lower frequency of oscillation but the added ma ss increases your chances of entering into the situation in the first place. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213772#213772 =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:50:03 AM PST US From: Joe Stevenson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? Sabrina,=0A-=0AJust for the sake of mentioning it have you gone over each of the bearing surfaces in your ailerons, flaps and rudder? Also with resp ect to your cable runs through your fuselage is there a remote possibility that something has induced friction or drag? While I don=A2t have the engin eering background back ground or resources your family and EEA chapter are blessed with I have found a solution is always present, one simply has to r esearch or experiment until they find it. =0ASince it is unlikely you have access to a wind tunnel for a full on ground systems test do you have acces s to a stationary airplane engine test stand? If so you can secure your air plane to the runway and get enough airflow across the wing and aileron and rudder surfaces to test your aircrafts control surfaces for action and reac tion. It=A2s not very scientific and admittedly is rather crude but it=A2s worked well for me in the past on other projects I can=A2t discuss. =0A- =0ABest=0A-=0AJWS=0A-=0ADo not arcive please=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____________ ____________________=0AFrom: Sabrina =0ATo: zenith-l ist@matronics.com=0ASent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 11:56:19 AM=0ASubjec t: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL?=0A=0A--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Sabrina" =0A=0AI strongly disagree, elev ator input is suspect in more than one fatal crash.- Even if an elevator remains in place, we don't know if the elevator got away and overstressed s ome other component.- We just assume the pilot moved the stick too abrupt ly.- It could be that we are only hearing about the aileron flutter becau se it can be dampened and the pilot can survive. =0A=0AThere has to be a re ason why Zenith added 6T3-8, the elevator horn reinforcing strap, to the de sign.- At some point, some aerodynamic action was pulling the two horns a part in flight on the aircraft that was the basis for the design change.- 6-T-3 08/05=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums. -=- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Drall ========================0A=0A =0A ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:09:31 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? From: jaybannist@cs.com Sabrina, FWIW: ? I asked the test pilot that first flew my 601XL if he used the elevator trim.? He said "Definitely!"? He said that he virtually flew the airplane with elevator trim.? To my thinking, that makes a pretty good case for the elevator trim.? I don't have aileron trim, either. Jay in Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Sabrina Sent: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:24 am Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? "I did use elevator trim." Wade, Personally, the elevator trim weight bothered me more than the aileron trim. The ailerons, by their nature of one being up and one down, should, if properly tensioned, be easier to dampen in flight than a fluttering elevator. So too, a builder can easily adjust an XL's horizontal stabilizer for proper cruise configuration since it sits so high off the longerons. The aileron trim was a much easier call for me than the elevator trim. If no aileron trim under Par. 4-36, why elevator trim? As to Par 4-36(c) was it the Cardinal that used foam in the elevator trim tab that took on water/ice and threw it off balance? Has anyone had to drill a weep hole in their elevator trim tab to make sure ice does not build up? I ended up gust-locking my elevator in the up position rather than down to keep the ice out. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213753#213753 ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:26:52 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? From: "Sabrina" Hey there to the person aka Joe Kidd, It is sad, but even MIT's wind tunnel is too small. The way the turbo prop guys blast the aircraft at the end of the East ramp at KARR as they warm up and wait for IFR clearance for 27, I don't need one. :o) I am confident the problems will be figured out in a matter of months, not years. I had the cable tensions adjusted from a liability point of view. So too, I hope the new 40/30/22 +/-5 set of tensions bring the control inputs towards the middle, as opposed to having the elevator too light, and the rudder too stiff. Jay, I added elevator trim ONLY because people were complaining about nose-heavy XLs wanting to fly nose down. I did not think that pitching the H-stab down would work as well as it did. The Sabrina Mark 1 pitches up at full power, down at reduced power and is level in cruise without any trim. Did you pitch your H-stab at all? Do you have a heavy engine? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213795#213795 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:17 PM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? Butting in here but,,,, In my Experimental airplane adventures, I ve found that pitching up under power and then pitching down with reduced power is an indication of the engine mount not being set at the correct angle........ Steve W. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sabrina" Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:25 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? > > Hey there to the person aka Joe Kidd, > > It is sad, but even MIT's wind tunnel is too small. The way the turbo > prop guys blast the aircraft at the end of the East ramp at KARR as they > warm up and wait for IFR clearance for 27, I don't need one. :o) > > I am confident the problems will be figured out in a matter of months, not > years. I had the cable tensions adjusted from a liability point of view. > So too, I hope the new 40/30/22 +/-5 set of tensions bring the control > inputs towards the middle, as opposed to having the elevator too light, > and the rudder too stiff. > > Jay, > > I added elevator trim ONLY because people were complaining about > nose-heavy XLs wanting to fly nose down. I did not think that pitching > the H-stab down would work as well as it did. The Sabrina Mark 1 pitches > up at full power, down at reduced power and is level in cruise without any > trim. Did you pitch your H-stab at all? Do you have a heavy engine? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213795#213795 > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:48:44 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? From: jaybannist@cs.com Sabrina, My horizontal stabilizer is parallel to the upper longeron, as called for in the plans.? My engine is a Corvair, so, yes it could be considered a heavy engine. Jay in Dallas Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Sabrina Sent: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 2:25 pm Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? Hey there to the person aka Joe Kidd, It is sad, but even MIT's wind tunnel is too small. The way the turbo prop guys blast the aircraft at the end of the East ramp at KARR as they warm up and wait for IFR clearance for 27, I don't need one. :o) I am confident the problems will be figured out in a matter of months, not years. I had the cable tensions adjusted from a liability point of view. So too, I hope the new 40/30/22 +/-5 set of tensions bring the control inputs towards the middle, as opposed to having the elevator too light, and the rudder too stiff. Jay, I added elevator trim ONLY because people were complaining about nose-heavy XLs wanting to fly nose down. I did not think that pitching the H-stab down would work as well as it did. The Sabrina Mark 1 pitches up at full power, down at reduced power and is level in cruise without any trim. Did you pitch your H-stab at all? Do you have a heavy engine? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213795#213795 ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:51:23 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? From: "Sabrina" Now you got me calling my test pilot and he is on my back. :o) He says you are 100% right and wants me to quote him correctly in the future: "full power = a nice climb, cruise power = level flight, reduced power = a slight nose over that would prevent a stall." P.S. You think my use of the word "pitch" bothered you, I got six e-mails complaining about me calling the nose gear stop place "at rest" when it is in flight. I meant resting against the upper bearing plate. I got one referring to me as a type of dog, but that word begins with B and not P. I probably still had that on my mind when I wrote "pitch". Sorry. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213800#213800 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:29 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? "Throttle is for climb and decent, you trim for speed" A plane that is trimmed at a set speed wil climb or decend with a change in throttle rpm or power setting, so angle on engine is more for p factor/ torque than anything, relavant on a limitted basis to level flight. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: steve >Sent: Nov 12, 2008 3:35 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? > > >Butting in here but,,,, >In my Experimental airplane adventures, I ve found that pitching up under >power and then pitching down with reduced power is an indication of the >engine mount not being set at the correct angle........ >Steve W. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Sabrina" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:25 PM >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? > > >> >> Hey there to the person aka Joe Kidd, >> >> It is sad, but even MIT's wind tunnel is too small. The way the turbo >> prop guys blast the aircraft at the end of the East ramp at KARR as they >> warm up and wait for IFR clearance for 27, I don't need one. :o) >> >> I am confident the problems will be figured out in a matter of months, not >> years. I had the cable tensions adjusted from a liability point of view. >> So too, I hope the new 40/30/22 +/-5 set of tensions bring the control >> inputs towards the middle, as opposed to having the elevator too light, >> and the rudder too stiff. >> >> Jay, >> >> I added elevator trim ONLY because people were complaining about >> nose-heavy XLs wanting to fly nose down. I did not think that pitching >> the H-stab down would work as well as it did. The Sabrina Mark 1 pitches >> up at full power, down at reduced power and is level in cruise without any >> trim. Did you pitch your H-stab at all? Do you have a heavy engine? >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213795#213795 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:11 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? not having elevator trim limits the plane's power to weight true speed capabilitys. You pitch/ trim for speed and throttle for climb. If no trim avaialable than the plane will be set a level flight at a certain horsepower and as weight changes the level flight/ horse power output will change. Cable tension is a whole differnt ball of wax. The Tension AD is out there because people did not focus on it as that important and it bit some folks in the ass, and then they blame it on the design. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Sabrina >Sent: Nov 12, 2008 3:25 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? > > >Hey there to the person aka Joe Kidd, > >It is sad, but even MIT's wind tunnel is too small. The way the turbo prop guys blast the aircraft at the end of the East ramp at KARR as they warm up and wait for IFR clearance for 27, I don't need one. :o) > >I am confident the problems will be figured out in a matter of months, not years. I had the cable tensions adjusted from a liability point of view. So too, I hope the new 40/30/22 +/-5 set of tensions bring the control inputs towards the middle, as opposed to having the elevator too light, and the rudder too stiff. > >Jay, > >I added elevator trim ONLY because people were complaining about nose-heavy XLs wanting to fly nose down. I did not think that pitching the H-stab down would work as well as it did. The Sabrina Mark 1 pitches up at full power, down at reduced power and is level in cruise without any trim. Did you pitch your H-stab at all? Do you have a heavy engine? > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213795#213795 > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:41 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? every pilot flys their plane with the trim. makes for better and smooth flying. a plane with now trim is limitred in its true capabilities and so is the pilot. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: jaybannist@cs.com >Sent: Nov 12, 2008 3:08 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? > > > Sabrina, > >FWIW: ? I asked the test pilot that first flew my 601XL if he used the elevator trim.? He said "Definitely!"? He said that he virtually flew the airplane with elevator trim.? To my thinking, that makes a pretty good case for the elevator trim.? I don't have aileron trim, either. > >Jay in Dallas > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Sabrina >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Sent: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:24 am >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? > > > >"I did use elevator trim." > >Wade, > >Personally, the elevator trim weight bothered me more than the aileron trim. >The ailerons, by their nature of one being up and one down, should, if properly >tensioned, be easier to dampen in flight than a fluttering elevator. So too, a >builder can easily adjust an XL's horizontal stabilizer for proper cruise >configuration since it sits so high off the longerons. The aileron trim was a >much easier call for me than the elevator trim. If no aileron trim under Par. >4-36, why elevator trim? > >As to Par 4-36(c) was it the Cardinal that used foam in the elevator trim tab >that took on water/ice and threw it off balance? > >Has anyone had to drill a weep hole in their elevator trim tab to make sure ice >does not build up? I ended up gust-locking my elevator in the up position >rather than down to keep the ice out. > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213753#213753 > > > > >________________________________________________________________________ >Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:24:52 PM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? P factor and torque is corrected by left or right engine mount setting. OR rudder offset. I understand that Sabrina was talking about climb and desent. With power or not the attitude (verticle) should not change a whole bunch. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Juan Vega" Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 2:32 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? > > "Throttle is for climb and decent, you trim for speed" A plane that is > trimmed at a set speed wil climb or decend with a change in throttle rpm > or power setting, so angle on engine is more for p factor/ torque than > anything, relavant on a limitted basis to level flight. > > Juan > > -----Original Message----- >>From: steve >>Sent: Nov 12, 2008 3:35 PM >>To: zenith-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? >> >> >>Butting in here but,,,, >>In my Experimental airplane adventures, I ve found that pitching up under >>power and then pitching down with reduced power is an indication of the >>engine mount not being set at the correct angle........ >>Steve W. >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Sabrina" >>To: >>Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:25 PM >>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? >> >> >>> >>> Hey there to the person aka Joe Kidd, >>> >>> It is sad, but even MIT's wind tunnel is too small. The way the turbo >>> prop guys blast the aircraft at the end of the East ramp at KARR as they >>> warm up and wait for IFR clearance for 27, I don't need one. :o) >>> >>> I am confident the problems will be figured out in a matter of months, >>> not >>> years. I had the cable tensions adjusted from a liability point of >>> view. >>> So too, I hope the new 40/30/22 +/-5 set of tensions bring the control >>> inputs towards the middle, as opposed to having the elevator too light, >>> and the rudder too stiff. >>> >>> Jay, >>> >>> I added elevator trim ONLY because people were complaining about >>> nose-heavy XLs wanting to fly nose down. I did not think that pitching >>> the H-stab down would work as well as it did. The Sabrina Mark 1 >>> pitches >>> up at full power, down at reduced power and is level in cruise without >>> any >>> trim. Did you pitch your H-stab at all? Do you have a heavy engine? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213795#213795 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:10:49 PM PST US From: "Roger & Lina Hill" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? My 601HDS propeller fluttered too !!!! Then it broke off. Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of J.T. Machin Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 11:49 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? Sabrina, I have to agree with Wade. Every aircraft's control system is different and and the fact that the ailerons have a balance cable really does not impact its flutter characteristics because flutter is not really a control surface deflection that originates from the stick. The deflection comes from a flexing of the system that then stores the spring energy. This flexing and storing of energy and then releasing that energy as the surface unflexes is a primary driver in the creation of the flutter effect. That is why stiffer is better when it comes to control systems. That being said, a flutter situation can occur in any of the control surfaces. As the XL has had several reported instances of aileron flutter, it seems to be the most prevalent flutter mode. I have not heard of any report instances of elevator flutter. Also, any additional weight at the trailing edge of a control surface will absolutely reduce the flutter speed. I'm not saying that the XL with aileron trim is unsafe, but it does have less flutter margin than one without the trim system. I decided to go with a bungee type trim if required for the the ailerons. Jim Machin 601XL, 0-200 Almost done! --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Sabrina wrote: From: Sabrina Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? "I did use elevator trim." Wade, Personally, the elevator trim weight bothered me more than the aileron trim. The ailerons, by their nature of one being up and one down, should, if properly tensioned, be easier to dampen in flight than a fluttering elevator. So too, a builder can easily adjust an XL's horizontal stabilizer for proper cruise configuration since it sits so high off the longerons. The aileron trim was a much easier call for me than the elevator trim. If no aileron trim under Par. 4-36, why elevator trim? As to Par 4-36(c) was it the Cardinal that used foam in the elevator trim tab that took on water/ice and threw it off balance? Has anyone had to drill a weep hole in their elevator trim tab to make sure ice does not build up? I ended up gust-locking my elevator in the up position rather than down to keep the ice out. Read this topic online ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:09:56 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? Miss Sabrina,,,, I could go back through all of your emails and point ou t every detail you have wrong, in fact I still might, But. Until you str ap you own butt in the seat of the plane you claim you built and actuall y get it in the air your comments are second hand gossip. Funny you ans wered all the other questions except for the one asking why you don't fl y your own plane.. Stay tuned for the regular scheduled program already in progress. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "Sabrina" wrote: Mr. Haas, The problem here is that I am sending someone else up in my aircraft eve ry time I authorize a new test flight. It is a very serious task, espec ially the first flight after each XL fatality. The rudder tension numbers bothered me and that is why I did not sign th e aircraft off for the next flight until I figured it out. (Remember no w, the IA did not adjust the rudder tensions.) I posted the numbers her e and you guys, albeit off list, confirmed my problem with the numbers. Since I have 33% more bearing surface than you guys on the rudder, 5 mo re pounds of tension than the Haas 30 +/- 5 is nominal, but not optimal. Most newer, light-engine 601s have a higher 'at rest' rudder tension bec ause the stop plate is at or nearly at rest. My nose heavy aircraft, an d those with more time on their bungee will see their at rest rudder ten sions drop. Each of us should expect a different at rest value and some thing other than my 12-13 pound differential between rest and flight. Although I know my particular airframe "at rest" better than anyone, and had to defend my modifications to it during hours of meetings last Dece mber and January, since I have never flown it or in it, I have to rely u pon others in situations involving the feel of the aircraft in flight. For example, the rudder is often described in post-flight briefings as heavy, the ailerons medium and the elevator light as compared to my Cess na 150L. My test pilot actually flies my C150L first and then flies th e Sabrina. Although they are different animals, they do share many feat ures including a common engine/prop. This nearly contemporaneous compar ison gives me the only "feel" I have for the Sabrina in flight and takes away the "local conditions" factor that might otherwise taint the compa rison. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213742#213742 ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== _____________________________________________________________ Click here to find the satellite television package that meets your need s. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4tvKJJIMeDsUeuCrDrU E6wYmsS7Tofn3mOUWcVTCzH4MyanA/?count=1234567890 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:39:12 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? From: "Gig Giacona" gburdett wrote: > And I'm a 7 year old Dalmatian whose owner taught to fly using hand signals. Give it a rest. > > Update: Aren't you in school today? Not bothered-get cranky a lot though. Sometimes too experimental. You seem to have an innate grasp of aeronautical topics-do you have a mentor or read a lot? > > DO NOT ARCHIVE Well she built a plane. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213860#213860 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:30 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? From: "Sabrina" Mr. Haas, As for building the aircraft, I know you don't think a girl could build an aircraft so no amount of photos or videos would ever convince you. You are not the first and will not be the last to underestimate me. What may surprise you is that I have never wanted to be a pilot or an aircraft builder, it is just a step towards my dreams of building spacecraft. As for flying N5886Q, I don't have the license to do it here. I wish I did. I have always admitted to having a great deal of help building it. It started with Scott Laughlin, then Larry's website, then Andres, and Mr. Sewell (all from the ch601.org list) Also, I would read this list often. Actually riveting together an airframe kit is a no brainer. Figuring out how to move a 200 pound engine from the back of the garage to the nose of an aircraft by yourself is a little challenging, but figuring out the fuel system, avionics and how to create an interior was much more difficult. These were all one off. I don't know anyone with a similar panel or true tuck and roll interior. I kinda like the look of my cowling too. Am I proud, Yes. I really like my leading edge modification and ejector canopy too. At first, I figured after the airplane flew, my job was done. When the XL started having more and more problems, it was a nightmare for me. Then, I realized this was an opportunity of a life time. It is very challenging and interesting to develop a flight test program for the airplane. I am learning so much more than I ever thought I would. I am very proud that my first squawk did not come until 10 months into the flight testing. So, if you think I am intimidated by you. No, sorry. I have been in meeting after meeting defending my modifications and have been asked "Do I want my daddy." Although it would be nice, no, I can do this. I don't think any 701/801 builder understands what those of us with an XL kit are going through. Do I dislike you, No. You just don't understand me. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213865#213865 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:53 PM PST US From: "Roger & Lina Hill" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? Like I always say, flying is only part of aviation, and not necessarily the best part. Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 8:01 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? Mr. Haas, As for building the aircraft, I know you don't think a girl could build an aircraft so no amount of photos or videos would ever convince you. You are not the first and will not be the last to underestimate me. What may surprise you is that I have never wanted to be a pilot or an aircraft builder, it is just a step towards my dreams of building spacecraft. As for flying N5886Q, I don't have the license to do it here. I wish I did. I have always admitted to having a great deal of help building it. It started with Scott Laughlin, then Larry's website, then Andres, and Mr. Sewell (all from the ch601.org list) Also, I would read this list often. Actually riveting together an airframe kit is a no brainer. Figuring out how to move a 200 pound engine from the back of the garage to the nose of an aircraft by yourself is a little challenging, but figuring out the fuel system, avionics and how to create an interior was much more difficult. These were all one off. I don't know anyone with a similar panel or true tuck and roll interior. I kinda like the look of my cowling too. Am I proud, Yes. I really like my leading edge modification and ejector canopy too. At first, I figured after the airplane flew, my job was done. When the XL started having more and more problems, it was a nightmare for me. Then, I realized this was an opportunity of a life time. It is very challenging and interesting to develop a flight test program for the airplane. I am learning so much more than I ever thought I would. I am very proud that my first squawk did not come until 10 months into the flight testing. So, if you think I am intimidated by you. No, sorry. I have been in meeting after meeting defending my modifications and have been asked "Do I want my daddy." Although it would be nice, no, I can do this. I don't think any 701/801 builder understands what those of us with an XL kit are going through. Do I dislike you, No. You just don't understand me. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213865#213865 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:54 PM PST US From: "Dirk Zahtilla" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? Sorry, no offense Steve, but I agree with Juan on this one. Simple test... fly straight and level then cut throttle to idle while holding the elevator steady. I promise you that ANY plane will soon be in a steep dive toward the ground. Full power from straight and level (if your trimmed for level at low power) and you will pitch up and climb. I thought we all knew this ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve" Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:24 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? > > P factor and torque is corrected by left or right engine mount setting. > OR rudder offset. I understand that Sabrina was talking about climb and > desent. With power or not the attitude (verticle) should not change a > whole bunch. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Juan Vega" > To: ; > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 2:32 PM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? > > >> >> "Throttle is for climb and decent, you trim for speed" A plane that is >> trimmed at a set speed wil climb or decend with a change in throttle rpm >> or power setting, so angle on engine is more for p factor/ torque than >> anything, relavant on a limitted basis to level flight. >> >> Juan >> >> -----Original Message----- >>>From: steve >>>Sent: Nov 12, 2008 3:35 PM >>>To: zenith-list@matronics.com >>>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? >>> >>> >>>Butting in here but,,,, >>>In my Experimental airplane adventures, I ve found that pitching up under >>>power and then pitching down with reduced power is an indication of the >>>engine mount not being set at the correct angle........ >>>Steve W. >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Sabrina" >>>To: >>>Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:25 PM >>>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Hey there to the person aka Joe Kidd, >>>> >>>> It is sad, but even MIT's wind tunnel is too small. The way the turbo >>>> prop guys blast the aircraft at the end of the East ramp at KARR as >>>> they >>>> warm up and wait for IFR clearance for 27, I don't need one. :o) >>>> >>>> I am confident the problems will be figured out in a matter of months, >>>> not >>>> years. I had the cable tensions adjusted from a liability point of >>>> view. >>>> So too, I hope the new 40/30/22 +/-5 set of tensions bring the control >>>> inputs towards the middle, as opposed to having the elevator too light, >>>> and the rudder too stiff. >>>> >>>> Jay, >>>> >>>> I added elevator trim ONLY because people were complaining about >>>> nose-heavy XLs wanting to fly nose down. I did not think that >>>> pitching >>>> the H-stab down would work as well as it did. The Sabrina Mark 1 >>>> pitches >>>> up at full power, down at reduced power and is level in cruise without >>>> any >>>> trim. Did you pitch your H-stab at all? Do you have a heavy engine? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Read this topic online here: >>>> >>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213795#213795 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:01 PM PST US From: "J.T. Machin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? Wow Ben, I am surprised at your response to such a talented and well educated email from Sabrina. I have never seen anyone accomplish so much and have so much eloquence from so one so young.-- Her enthusiasm is contagious and am honored to disc uss such issues with her. This is coming from one who has been in the aerospace business for over 25 years and has designed 12 aircraft,(some I expect that you have heard of; P redator and Reaper UAV's which are currently performing the majority of the Air Force missions overseas). I for one look forward to Sabrina's comments and while I don't always agree , I do feel that I am exchanging with an aerospace engineer with many years of experience. - I truly applaud all of you accomplishments to date.- At her age I was still shaping balsa wood sticks for my free flight model a irplanes and hoping for a trophy at the local model aircraft contest. By the way, Sabrina, if you are looking for a summer internship at a state of the art aerospace company once you start your college career, contact me off line.- I am sure we can work something out. Jim Machin Director of Advanced Development General Atomic Aeronautical Systems --- On Wed, 11/12/08, n801bh@netzero.com wrote: From: n801bh@netzero.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? Miss Sabrina,,,, I could go back through all of your emails and point out e very detail you have wrong, in fact I still might, But. Until you strap you own butt in the seat-of the plane you-claim you-built and actually g et it in the air your comments are-second hand gossip.- Funny you answe red all the other questions except for the one asking why you don't fly you r own plane.. Stay tuned for the regular scheduled program already in progress. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "Sabrina" wrote: Mr. Haas, The problem here is that I am sending someone else up in my aircraft every time I authorize a new test flight. -It is a very serious task, especiall y the first flight after each XL fatality. - The rudder tension numbers bothered me and that is why I did not sign the a ircraft off for the next flight until I figured it out. -(Remember now, t he IA did not adjust the rudder tensions.) -I posted the numbers here and you guys, albeit off list, confirmed my problem with the numbers. -Since I have 33% more bearing surface than you guys on the rudder, 5 more pounds of tension than the Haas 30 +/- 5 is nominal, but not optimal. - Most newer, light-engine 601s have a higher 'at rest' rudder tension becaus e the stop plate is at or nearly at rest. -My nose heavy aircraft, and th ose with more time on their bungee will see their at rest rudder tensions d rop. -Each of us should expect a different at rest value and something ot her than my 12-13 pound differential between rest and flight. - Although I know my particular airframe "at rest" better than anyone, and ha d to defend my modifications to it during hours of meetings last December a nd January, since I have never flown it or in it, I have to rely upon other s in situations involving the feel of the aircraft in flight. --For exa mple, the rudder is often described in post-flight briefings as heavy, the ailerons medium and the elevator light as compared to my Cessna 150L. - -My test pilot actually flies my C150L first and then flies the Sabrina. -Although they are different animals, they do share many features includi ng a common engine/prop. -This nearly contemporaneous comparison gives me the only "feel" I have for the Sabrina in flight and takes away the "local conditions" factor that might otherwise taint the comparison. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213742#213742 <========================sp ;-----------------------&nb ======================;-- ---------- MAT============== == _____________________________________________________________ Click here to find the satellite television package that meets your needs. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:57 PM PST US From: "Dirk Zahtilla" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? Back to the cable tension debate, if I may, with all the discussions of cables and flutter I am more convinced than ever to use pushrods, and balanced control surfaces. To me, this is a simple, logical fix. I'm not the first person to do this, and probably not the last. pushrods never need tension adjusting, they do not put a permanent strain on the airframe like cables do. If there is any play from worn parts you can tell instantly on your pre-flight. As to balance of controls this further relieves stress on the airframe and if I'm not mistaken helps reduce the possibility of flutter. I frankly don't care if Zenith Inc. doesn't like this but it is obviously very hard and embarassing for a company to admit that they could have done better and make changes to their design, admitting to those weaknesses in their design, so I use my own experience and compare this plane to other designs that have done a better job on some of these issues. I didn't invent pushrods and balanced ailerons, but I have flown some exceptional planes that had them so why not.. I'm sure I'm not the only person to write to Mr Heinz about this issue and the wing failure issue only to get the pat response that "there are hundreds of these planes flying so it must be OK" Well maybe most people don't get close to the design limits of their planes and never find out the hard way that they are borderline in some areas and you only get one chance to cross that line. I still like the plane and plan to build it, but I'll fix these obvious (in my opinion) weaknesses. Dirk PS Let the flames begin, I'm ready for you! ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:29 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? Hi Sabrina, I promise not to ever underestimate you. Indeed, I am incredibly impressed with you. That said, I must take issue with your comment that riveting a kit together is a no-brainer. I managed to destroy my first XL wing by trying my best to follow the instructions provided by ZAC. After scrapping it I decided to mostly ignore the kit instructions and think through the process of building each piece into the finished airframe. There was also much fitting and remaking of parts I destroyed on my first attempts. I have found the entire process of building an XL from standard kit very educational. I have been working on mine for over three years now (but only an hour or two per day) and I still seem to learn something new every day. Indeed, I think my brain is the part that has had to work the hardest building this kit. Best regards, Paul XL getting close At 06:00 PM 11/12/2008, you wrote: > > You are not the first and will not be the last to underestimate me. > Actually riveting together an airframe kit is a no brainer. ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:06 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? From: "Sabrina" One word: WOW... do you guys know that General Atomic came this >< close to producing atomic propulsed space craft in the 1960s. Paul... sorry about the no-brainer comment. I actually mis-drilled the first aluminum part I touched. When I put the cylinders on my engine, I actually left a sealing ring off. It is such a terrible feeling to put your engine together and have extra parts afterwords. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213883#213883 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:43 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? And now they fly Rotax-powered UAVs. I think I'm happier with their present incarnation :-) -- Craig Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 8:56 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? One word: WOW... do you guys know that General Atomic came this >< close to producing atomic propulsed space craft in the 1960s. Paul... sorry about the no-brainer comment. I actually mis-drilled the first aluminum part I touched. When I put the cylinders on my engine, I actually left a sealing ring off. It is such a terrible feeling to put your engine together and have extra parts afterwords. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213883#213883 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:19 PM PST US From: "Roger & Lina Hill" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? Ya, I guess nuclear reactors falling from the sky was not a very great concern at the time. Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:56 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? One word: WOW... do you guys know that General Atomic came this >< close to producing atomic propulsed space craft in the 1960s. Paul... sorry about the no-brainer comment. I actually mis-drilled the first aluminum part I touched. When I put the cylinders on my engine, I actually left a sealing ring off. It is such a terrible feeling to put your engine together and have extra parts afterwords. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213883#213883 ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:16 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? Project Orion wasn't powered by a reactor - it was powered by a series of small atomic bombs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion) I'm certain the cable tension would have been critical :-) -- Craig Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger & Lina Hill Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 11:05 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? Ya, I guess nuclear reactors falling from the sky was not a very great concern at the time. Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:56 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cable Tensions for 601XL? One word: WOW... do you guys know that General Atomic came this >< close to producing atomic propulsed space craft in the 1960s. Paul... sorry about the no-brainer comment. I actually mis-drilled the first aluminum part I touched. When I put the cylinders on my engine, I actually left a sealing ring off. It is such a terrible feeling to put your engine together and have extra parts afterwords. 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