Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:54 AM - Balanced and better flight controls (chris Sinfield)
2. 04:32 AM - Re: I've moved to FLAG (and you can too) (Paul Mulwitz)
3. 05:26 AM - Re: 601XL - Aileron Trim Tab Deflection (Juan Vega)
4. 07:40 AM - Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab (Grant Corriveau)
5. 07:53 AM - Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab (Grant Corriveau)
6. 08:28 AM - Re: 601XL - Aileron Trim Tab Deflection (Dirk Zahtilla)
7. 08:46 AM - Re: Aileron Adustment (Dirk Zahtilla)
8. 09:35 AM - Re: Aileron Adustment (Paul Mulwitz)
9. 09:53 AM - Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab (Joe Stevenson)
10. 03:29 PM - Attaching the Axles (lwhitlow)
11. 03:58 PM - Re: Attaching the Axles (jaybannist@cs.com)
12. 04:08 PM - Re: Attaching the Axles (jaybannist@cs.com)
13. 06:32 PM - 601XL for sale (Darrell Haas)
14. 07:01 PM - 601XL Tail and Wing Kit for Sale (The Keeners)
15. 08:42 PM - Re: Attaching the Axles (Bryan Martin)
16. 09:41 PM - Re: Balanced and better flight controls (Ron Lendon)
17. 09:44 PM - Re: 601XL - Aileron Trim Tab Deflection (Ron Lendon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Balanced and better flight controls |
Just read this in the Zenith flyer
Much work was done to the controls, which are now more balanced for better feel.
"The 650 LS's airframe structure and flying characteristics are now more like
an FAR 23 type aircraft," said AMD Sales Director John Degonia. "Flying schools
and pilots who were looking at buying an FAR 23 aircraft have now committed
to the 650."
So what have they changed in the 650 re controls???? to make it balanced and better????
Chris.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214333#214333
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| Subject: | Re: I've moved to FLAG (and you can too) |
I am Green with Envy!
Paul
XL getting close
in desperate need of hangar/runway
Camas, WA
At 10:46 PM 11/14/2008, you wrote:
>I've moved my project to "First Light Aviation Group"
>(FLAG) in Livermore, California
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL - Aileron Trim Tab Deflection |
make another horn and put the hole closer in.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Dave VanLanen <davevanlanen@sbcglobal.net>
>Sent: Nov 14, 2008 11:28 PM
>To: zenith601-list@matronics.com, zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL - Aileron Trim Tab Deflection
>
>I just finished installing my aileron trim, and when I tested it, I can only
>get a total of 40 degrees of deflection. According to the plans, I should
>be able to get 50 degrees of deflection (25 up and 25 down). Adjusting the
>length of the control rod only changes the distribution of the 40 degrees
>between up and down - it does not increase the total deflection. I checked
>that the servo was working correctly, which it was (.7" travel per specs).
>I also checked that there was no binding of the control rod clevis with the
>trim tab horn angle. The only thing I could find was that the center of the
>control rod mounting hole in the horn angle was 13 mm up from the flange
>instead of the 12 mm specified in the plans. I find it hard to believe that
>1 mm would cause a 10 degree loss in deflection.
>Has anyone else experienced this problem, and if so, what did you do to
>resolve?
>
>Thanks,
>Dave Van Lanen
>601XL - tail done, flaps done, working on ailerons
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab |
Ah! Thanks, Sabrina,
I had to stop and research my aeronautical lexicon for 'decalage'
but wikki came through (for anyone else who needs to refresh their
theory of flight brain cells as well - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Decalage)
Now your discussion on the topic makes perfect sense. Thanks again,
Happy Spaceship building,
Grant
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab |
Thanks Bryan,
Your discussion of this adjustment makes more sense to me now. I
found that the final setting of the ailerons to be very ambiguous as
well, and I wonder if that also contributes to the differences in
individual aircraft. I originally found my aircraft flew a little
nose-high in cruise. I tweaked both my ailerons down a degree or two
(barely noticeable visually) and it improved the situation. My stall
speed is now pretty close to the 'book' value as well.
All this gets me thinking of ways to further improve the STOL
performance of my 601 (it'll never be a speed Queen and that's not
what I bought it for anyway.) So I might as well tweak the STOL end
of the envelope. I'll soon be adding the VGs as recorded in the
online videos by Viktor (search youtube for this video: 0TPLa50Dvzg)
Happy testing
Grant
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL - Aileron Trim Tab Deflection |
601XL - Aileron Trim Tab DeflectionHi Dave, the 12 vs 13mm hole
placement causes a 8% reduction in movement or 46 vs 50 deg. If you also
shifted the location toward the trailing edge of the trim tab this could
easily account for the rest of the error. With these small parts small
errors add up fast. Do like Juan says if your not ok with 40 deg. and
make a new control horn. No big...
Dirk
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave VanLanen
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com ; zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 8:28 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL - Aileron Trim Tab Deflection
I just finished installing my aileron trim, and when I tested it, I
can only get a total of 40 degrees of deflection. According to the
plans, I should be able to get 50 degrees of deflection (25 up and 25
down). Adjusting the length of the control rod only changes the
distribution of the 40 degrees between up and down - it does not
increase the total deflection. I checked that the servo was working
correctly, which it was (.7" travel per specs). I also checked that
there was no binding of the control rod clevis with the trim tab horn
angle. The only thing I could find was that the center of the control
rod mounting hole in the horn angle was 13 mm up from the flange instead
of the 12 mm specified in the plans. I find it hard to believe that 1
mm would cause a 10 degree loss in deflection.
Has anyone else experienced this problem, and if so, what did you do
to resolve?
Thanks,
Dave Van Lanen
601XL - tail done, flaps done, working on ailerons
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Adustment |
Good point to bring up. The ailerons do make a big change in the airfoil's
performance (thats their job). Dropping them like you say will lower stall
speed and also cruise speed. raising them does the opposite. When I did the
last annual on my C-150 they were found to be a couple degrees low. When I
got them up where they should be I picked up almost 5mph. at cruise (at
7000-8000msl). If I went up another 2 deg. it might go faster but like your
situation stall speed would be going up as well.
This is a good thing to add to flight testing. Starting at neutral and
adjusting up and down within about +-3 deg. max. and getting performance
numbers.
Dirk
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grant Corriveau" <grant.corriveau@TELUS.NET>
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 7:52 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab
> <grant.corriveau@telus.net>
>
> Thanks Bryan,
>
> Your discussion of this adjustment makes more sense to me now. I found
> that the final setting of the ailerons to be very ambiguous as well, and
> I wonder if that also contributes to the differences in individual
> aircraft. I originally found my aircraft flew a little nose-high in
> cruise. I tweaked both my ailerons down a degree or two (barely
> noticeable visually) and it improved the situation. My stall speed is
> now pretty close to the 'book' value as well.
>
> All this gets me thinking of ways to further improve the STOL performance
> of my 601 (it'll never be a speed Queen and that's not what I bought it
> for anyway.) So I might as well tweak the STOL end of the envelope.
> I'll soon be adding the VGs as recorded in the online videos by Viktor
> (search youtube for this video: 0TPLa50Dvzg)
>
> Happy testing
> Grant
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Adustment |
Hi Guys,
Watch out for one of the real "Gotchyas" here.
For aircraft control in the stall it is very important that the wing
roots stall before the tips. This gives you aileron control and
makes for a nice straight forward stall. If you adjust the ailerons
too much you could take this beyond the good control point and make
your plane very hard to control in the stall.
There is a small amount of "Wash out" built into the ailerons to keep
them flying when the wing root stalls. I doubt this is enough to
keep them flying longer than the root of they are adjusted too far to
"Increase the stall speed" as mentioned in this thread.
This is a similar trick to adjusting the flaps to a negative
displacement to reduce lift, increase speed, and increase the stall
speed a little. You can't do this much because of the hinge
location. Even so, increasing the stall speed at the flaps has
little control implications. The ailerons are whole different kettle of fish.
Paul
XL getting close
At 08:46 AM 11/15/2008, you wrote:
>Good point to bring up. The ailerons do make a big change in the
>airfoil's performance (thats their job). Dropping them like you say
>will lower stall speed and also cruise speed. raising them does the
>opposite. When I did the last annual on my C-150 they were found to
>be a couple degrees low. When I got them up where they should be I
>picked up almost 5mph. at cruise (at 7000-8000msl). If I went up
>another 2 deg. it might go faster but like your situation stall
>speed would be going up as well.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Heavy engine and Horiz. stab |
Hah! I had to do the same thing myself as I couldn=A2t remember what it mea
nt either. -Undoubtedly we=A2ll all be building away on a project a few y
ears from now and be interrupted by a news story of some young aeronautical
engineer=A2s flight testing of a new design ground to orbit shuttle craft.
=0AJWS=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Grant Corriv
eau <grant.corriveau@telus.net>=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sat
urday, November 15, 2008 9:39:40 AM=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-List: Heavy engin
grant.corriveau@telus.net>=0A=0AAh! Thanks, Sabrina,=0A=0AI had to stop and
research my aeronautical lexicon for 'decalage'- but wikki came through
(for anyone else who needs to refresh their theory of flight brain cells as
well - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decalage)=0A=0ANow your discussion on
the topic makes perfect sense.- Thanks again,=0A=0AHappy Spaceship buildi
ng,=0AGrant=0A=0A=0A
Message 10
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| Subject: | Attaching the Axles |
OK the plans are a little light here
It says to center the axle on the bottom of the spring gear but how far up from
the bottom does it go!! Pics anyone???
And do you round the bottom of the spring gear to match the round part of the axle
flange?? Zenith doesn't have a picture of the blasted thing without the wheel
installed
I'm gonna have a machine shop cut the mounting notches and drill the axle holes
as well as make the notches for the brake caliper mounting, and I'm hoping to
get it done this week, so pony up the advice kids!!!
Thanks
Larry Whitlow
601XL N69102 (reserved)
71% done 84% to go ( I'd better check my math)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214395#214395
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Attaching the Axles |
Larry,
I tried to locate the pads to minimize the work on the gear legs.? I just slightly
rounded the end corners of the gear legs.? I have attached a couple of drawings
that I used to determine the location and orientation. The drawings are
to scale; but to ensure the scale, the two random short lines ? must be exactly
10" apart.? Let me know if you have questions.
-----Original Message-----
From: lwhitlow <ldwhitlow@comcast.net>
Sent: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 5:26 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: Attaching the Axles
OK the plans are a little light here
It says to center the axle on the bottom of the spring gear but how far up from
the bottom does it go!! Pics anyone???
And do you round the bottom of the spring gear to match the round part of the
axle flange?? Zenith doesn't have a picture of the blasted thing without the
wheel installed
I'm gonna have a machine shop cut the mounting notches and drill the axle holes
as well as make the notches for the brake caliper mounting, and I'm hoping to
get it done this week, so pony up the advice kids!!!
Thanks
Larry Whitlow
601XL N69102 (reserved)
71% done 84% to go ( I'd better check my math)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214395#214395
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Attaching the Axles |
Oops!? Forgot to attach photos.
Jay in Dallas
-----Original Message-----
From: lwhitlow <ldwhitlow@comcast.net>
Sent: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 5:26 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: Attaching the Axles
OK the plans are a little light here
It says to center the axle on the bottom of the spring gear but how far up from
the bottom does it go!! Pics anyone???
And do you round the bottom of the spring gear to match the round part of the
axle flange?? Zenith doesn't have a picture of the blasted thing without the
wheel installed
I'm gonna have a machine shop cut the mounting notches and drill the axle holes
as well as make the notches for the brake caliper mounting, and I'm hoping to
get it done this week, so pony up the advice kids!!!
Thanks
Larry Whitlow
601XL N69102 (reserved)
71% done 84% to go ( I'd better check my math)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214395#214395
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
Message 13
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Unemployment, and the economy is forcing me to find other ways to fly. I
must sell my Zenith Zodiac 601XL kit.
Zenith Price
Included is: Fuselage kit -
$4725.00
Dual stick control option kit -
$485.00
Tail
kit $1495.00
Control kit
$925.00
Zenith charged $345.00 for Crating and Handling
Total $7975.00 - $375.00 = $7600.00
I have completed the rear section of the fuselage, not riveted, the firewall
is completed. You will need to order the remaining kits including the rudder
kit. I am not including it from the tail kit and will deduct $375 from the
total so you can order the rudder kit. I recommend starting with the rudder
kit. It's a great way to learn. I have not done anything with the other
parts of the kits. I can box it up for you and take it to a trucking
company. Shipping cost is your responsibility. My cost to you is $6,000.00.
I am proud of the workmanship since I was always thinking that I was the one
who was going to fly her. I will not charge you for crating/ handling and
you could save money if you live near my home in Portland, Oregon by coming
and picking it up. I hate to let her go.
Thank you,
Darrell Haas
971-563-6474
Do not archive
Message 14
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| Subject: | 601XL Tail and Wing Kit for Sale |
Dear Listers:
I have a Zodiac 601XL Tail (stab complete and elevator almost complete)
and Wing Kit (not started) with standard tanks, fuel system kit, baggage
lockers, landing lights, position lights, etc. All clecos, tools,
bits, etc.$4,000.00 takes all. Financial situation forces sale. Come
and get it....
Forest K.
Rocklin, CA (Sacramento Area)
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Attaching the Axles |
I put the flat side of the axle flush with the bottom of the spring
gear and filed off the corners of the gear just enough to allow
clearance for the brake assembly. (I have the Grove wheels and axles).
I just put the assemblies together and held them against the springs
to visualize how much metal to remove to get a good fit with the least
work.
On Nov 15, 2008, at 6:26 PM, lwhitlow wrote:
>
> OK the plans are a little light here
>
> It says to center the axle on the bottom of the spring gear but how
> far up from the bottom does it go!! Pics anyone???
>
> And do you round the bottom of the spring gear to match the round
> part of the axle flange?? Zenith doesn't have a picture of the
> blasted thing without the wheel installed
>
> I'm gonna have a machine shop cut the mounting notches and drill the
> axle holes as well as make the notches for the brake caliper
> mounting, and I'm hoping to get it done this week, so pony up the
> advice kids!!!
>
> Thanks
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Balanced and better flight controls |
Go to the zenith builders site, there is a list there of the changes.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214438#214438
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL - Aileron Trim Tab Deflection |
I ditto what Juan says. Just make a new part and let's all stop over analyzing
this.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214439#214439
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