Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:11 AM - Last "Official" Day Of The List Fund Raiser! (Matt Dralle)
1. 01:02 AM - Wing Jigs (LHusky@aol.com)
2. 03:05 AM - Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (Brady)
3. 07:02 AM - Re: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (jaybannist@cs.com)
4. 08:20 AM - Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (Brady)
5. 08:46 AM - Re: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (jaybannist@cs.com)
6. 09:34 AM - Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (Brady)
7. 09:34 AM - Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (Sabrina)
8. 10:02 AM - Re: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (Paul Mulwitz)
9. 10:40 AM - Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (Sabrina)
10. 11:01 AM - Re: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (Paul Mulwitz)
11. 11:51 AM - Tundra wheels and brakes for 701 for sale (Jerry Hey)
12. 03:02 PM - Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (Ron Lendon)
13. 03:04 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (Ken Lilja)
14. 04:47 PM - ch701 Plans (gotosteven)
15. 05:07 PM - Re: ch701 Plans (Craig Payne)
16. 05:42 PM - Re: ch701 Plans (gotosteven)
17. 05:48 PM - Re: ch701 Plans (gotosteven)
18. 06:30 PM - Re: Re: ch701 Plans (Craig Payne)
19. 07:47 PM - Tundra wheels and brakes for 701 for sale (Jerry Hey)
20. 08:34 PM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: (EMAproducts@aol.com)
21. 08:37 PM - Re: ch701 Plans (gotosteven)
22. 09:16 PM - Re: Re: ch701 Plans (Paul Mulwitz)
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| Subject: | Last "Official" Day Of The List Fund Raiser! |
Dear Listers,
Its November 30th and that means three things:..
1) Today I am now officially 45 years old...
2) It marks that last "official" day of this year's List Fund Raiser!
3) Its the last day I will be bugging everyone for a whole year!
If you use the Lists and enjoy the content and the no-advertising, no-spam, and
no-censorship way in which they're run, please make a Contribution today to support
their continued operation and upkeep. Your $20 or $30 goes a long way
to keep the List bills paid.
I will be posting the List of Contributors next week so make sure your name is
on it!
Thank you to everyone that has made a Contribution so far this year! It is greatly
appreciated.
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List and Forum Administrator
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I need to borrow or buy a set of wing jigs. I had a pair but sent them to a
guy and now I cannot locate him. To be honest, I cannot even remember his
name. I really need a set for a couple of weeks. If anyone has a set, email
me off line.
Thanks,
Larry Husky
Madras, Oregon
**************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW
AOL.com.
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) |
Sabrina,
The Length differences in your turnbuckle question is called the lead and will
depend on the thread type & pitch. If you had a Machinery Hand book you could
look up the thread pitch & lead for any thread type.
For example:
A 1/4 x 24 thread has the pitch of about 0.04167"
1" divided by 24 = 0.041666667" (rounded to 0.04167")
so for every revolution the mating pieces would move one pitch (lead).
On a turn buckle this is doubled so the lead would be 0.08334"
There are 3 classes of threads and the tolerances are different for each class.
so there will be some variance depending on the manufacturer and class.
Lead = Pitch x Starts (starts is the number of threads (single, double,etc.))
So imagine we had a turnbuckle that was 5/16 x 32 and was a double thread?
what is the lead now? :)
--------
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217030#217030
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) |
Sabrina,
For an AN155-22 turnbuckle with AN161-22 fork end, the threads are 1/4" - 28.?
Therefore the take-up per 360 deg turn would be 0.071428" or about 5/64".? For
180 deg, it would be half that. So to get your 4/64" and 6/64", you would turn
the turnbuckle barrel about a quarter turn each way.
Jay in Dallas
-----Original Message-----
From: Sabrina <chicago2paris@msn.com>
Sent: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 11:41 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not)
Ron,
Since you were all geared up to stretch some cables for Gig, would you please
set up a cable the same length as an aileron cable, tension it to 30 pounds and
then adjust the turnbuckle 4/64th and 6/64th tighter and tell us the tensions.
Then adjust it back to 30, and then adjust it 4/64th and 6/64th looser and tell
us the tensions. I cannot find any charts/tables even guesstimating the change
in tension. We could all post our guesses and have a little fun with the
issue. Everything on this list is so serious lately. Building is FUN!
Sincerely,
Sabrina
P.S. My guess would be: 34, 36, 26, 24
P.P.S. Does anyone know what the "take up/let out" is for each 180 degree
rotation of the turnbuckle?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=216950#216950
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) |
Jay,
I think you may have misunderstood her question. :)
I looked to me as though she was asking what the adjustments would net in tension.
For example:
If you started with a cable tensioned to 30lbs then tightened it 4-6/64Th's what
would the tension be? (31lbs?)
My guess is that it would be insignificant.
The aileron spec is 30lbs +/- 5lbs.
I doubt you would see a difference of 1 pound either way.
I could be wrong, it's happened before :)
Sabrina,
there is a formula for that but I haven't found it yet.
Still looking :)
I am sure the tension to turnbuckle lead is not linear.
The cable will continue to stretch until you reach the yield strength and so the
ratio is a "parabolic" curve. (if I'm using that right?)
The Curve will depend on material, diameter and class (construction; IE 6x19, 6x25,
6x32 etc.) of the wire rope.
also the length of the cable will have a lot to do with it.
The stretch is a percentage so a shorter cable will stretch less total distance
than a longer one will.
If you decide to take on that experiment and take it to cable failure, be very
careful!
I have seen cables break before and they store an amazing amount of energy!
--------
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217048#217048
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) |
Brady,
No, I didn't misunderstand her main question.? I just didn't know the answer to
it. (:>)
What I answered was her secondary question about take-up measurements when turning
the turnbuckle.
Jay in Dallas
-----Original Message-----
From: Brady <brady@magnificentmachine.com>
Sent: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 10:19 am
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not)
Jay,
I think you may have misunderstood her question. :)
I looked to me as though she was asking what the adjustments would net in
tension.
For example:
If you started with a cable tensioned to 30lbs then tightened it 4-6/64Th's what
would the tension be? (31lbs?)
My guess is that it would be insignificant.
The aileron spec is 30lbs +/- 5lbs.
I doubt you would see a difference of 1 pound either way.
I could be wrong, it's happened before :)
Sabrina,
there is a formula for that but I haven't found it yet.
Still looking :)
I am sure the tension to turnbuckle lead is not linear.
The cable will continue to stretch until you reach the yield strength and so the
ratio is a "parabolic" curve. (if I'm using that right?)
The Curve will depend on material, diameter and class (construction; IE 6x19,
6x25, 6x32 etc.) of the wire rope.
also the length of the cable will have a lot to do with it.
The stretch is a percentage so a shorter cable will stretch less total distance
than a longer one will.
If you decide to take on that experiment and take it to cable failure, be very
careful!
I have seen cables break before and they store an amazing amount of energy!
--------
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217048#217048
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) |
Oh, gotcha, :)
--------
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217062#217062
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) |
Thanks guys--your explanation seems so obvious, sorry I missed it, it must be all
the turkey (tryptophan.)
So it is Ron's turn :o)
It seems my guess as to tension change is too great.
Any others willing to post before Ron does his experiment?
The winner gets a Christmas card containing an invite to the launch of N5887Q in
June of 2018 (fall back dates 2020 & 2035.)
Ron gets an invite for just doing the experiment.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217061#217061
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) |
Hi Sabrina,
I am not willing to play the game your way, but I can supply a
slightly different point of view that might be helpful.
The question I can answer, sort of, is how much cable tension can you
generate by turning the turnbuckle by hand. The answer is something
around 25 pounds of tension. You can get this through a long
tortuous set of calculations on the cable and thread along with the
diameter of the turnbuckle barrel, or you can measure the tension
achieved by hand after the new tensiometer arrives from Aircraft
Spruce. Guess which method I used . . .
Paul
XL getting close
At 09:34 AM 11/30/2008, you wrote:
>Thanks guys--your explanation seems so obvious, sorry I missed it,
>it must be all the turkey (tryptophan.)
>
>So it is Ron's turn :o)
>
>It seems my guess as to tension change is too great.
>
>Any others willing to post before Ron does his experiment?
>
>The winner gets a Christmas card containing an invite to the launch
>of N5887Q in June of 2018 (fall back dates 2020 & 2035.)
>
>Ron gets an invite for just doing the experiment.
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) |
Dear Paul,
So, when you back off the tension 1/2 turn what happens?
A full turn?
The other way?
How many degrees of rotation per 5 pounds of tension change each way?
If you use those turnbuckle safety clips rather than safety wire, how much rotation
can you get with those installed? (We are talking about the Zenith supplied
turnbuckles)
Thanks,
Sabrina
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217064#217064
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) |
Hi Sabrina,
I'm really not sure. I hooked up the elevator and rudder cables and
safety wired them before getting the tensiometer. I intend to take
them all apart and redo the tension to the new specs some day.
As I recall the process, the tension really didn't build until the
last turn or so on the turnbuckle. This would be the case if there
was very little stretch in the whole system. My best guess now is
backing off a half turn on the turnbuckle would remove all the
tension in the cable.
My point in making my post was not clear so let me try to make it
clearer. It is a lot easier to figure mechanical advantage and work
from force (applied to the turnbuckle) to force (tension on the
cable) than to go about analyzing the impact of the thread on the
cable. Indeed, I am not at all sure the cable is the most
interesting part of this whole system. It may be that the aluminum
sheets, plastic fairleads, and other exotic things like play in the
control surface hinges play bigger roles than stretching the
cable. This is just as true after some time has passed as it is when
first applying tension to the cables.
After half a lifetime working as an electrical engineer, I am a firm
believer in "Closed Loop Control Systems". In this case, it means
taking measurements of cable tension and adjusting the turnbuckle to
get the tension you want rather than trying to predict the tension
achieved from a certain amount of turns. The second choice is an
"Open loop" system since there is no feedback of results.
Sorry about the lecture . . .
Paul
XL getting close
At 10:39 AM 11/30/2008, you wrote:
>
>Dear Paul,
>
>So, when you back off the tension 1/2 turn what happens?
>
>A full turn?
>
>The other way?
>
>How many degrees of rotation per 5 pounds of tension change each way?
>
>If you use those turnbuckle safety clips rather than safety wire,
>how much rotation can you get with those installed? (We are talking
>about the Zenith supplied turnbuckles)
>
>Thanks,
>
>Sabrina
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| Subject: | Tundra wheels and brakes for 701 for sale |
I have a set of Tundras (Titan 4 ply 8.00 x 6.00) for the 701,
Includes new tires and tubes, Matco dual caliper brakes and axles.
These are hardly used and condition is like new. They removed to
convert to floats. These are ready to bolt on.
New price from Zenith is S 1169.00.
I'm selling these for $850.00
Please contact me directy
jerry@jerryhey.com
DSCF1261.JPG
DSCF1263.JPG
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) |
Sabrina,
I accept the launch invitation, but decline on the test fixture challenge for cable
tension.
I'm back at the school KISS and will probably make a Larry Mac tension gauge and
be done with it.
Read my initial post and I believe I conveyed this position in my note to Gig.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217083#217083
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) |
With an installed cable you are tensioning a sorta stretchable cable
against a very springy airframe. 1 turn on the turnbuckle on one
aircraft may change the tension twice as much as on another. As a side
note, Beech uses springs in the LG retract system with pushrod
tensions. Bonanza series. Cessna uses the airframe as the "spring".
300 - 400 series.
Ken Lilja
Zenith-List message posted by: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris@msn.com>
Dear Paul,
So, when you back off the tension 1/2 turn what happens?
A full turn?
The other way?
How many degrees of rotation per 5 pounds of tension change each way?
If you use those turnbuckle safety clips rather than safety wire, how
much rotation can you get with those installed? (We are talking about
the Zenith supplied turnbuckles)
Thanks,
Sabrina
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Hi my name is steven phillips I am 19 years old and am going to start building
a ch701. I have a scrap yard and this is where i will get my inventory to turn
into parts. I have completed building all the regular size Ribs but need more
blueprints for rudder ribs and the smaller ribs closest to the plane. Any help
would be greatly appreciated my email address is gotosteven@hotmail.com
thanks again
P.S the blueprints i got for free from a friend are not complete they are missing
many pages dog eared and ripped i cant afford new 500$ ones so hand drawings
or anything would be appreciated
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217094#217094
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If the plans are legitimately yours (meaning they haven't been used to build
another 701 and the owner of record tells Zenith to transfer them to you)
then you can order the latest plans for $75 (that includes the photo
assembly CD).
If the above is not true then you owe it to the designer to pay him for the
design. The price is US$425.
The only other thing you have to worry about is the quality and alloy of the
metal coming out of your scrap yard :-)
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gotosteven
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 5:46 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: ch701 Plans
Hi my name is steven phillips I am 19 years old and am going to start
building a ch701. I have a scrap yard and this is where i will get my
inventory to turn into parts. I have completed building all the regular size
Ribs but need more blueprints for rudder ribs and the smaller ribs closest
to the plane. Any help would be greatly appreciated my email address is
gotosteven@hotmail.com
thanks again
P.S the blueprints i got for free from a friend are not complete they are
missing many pages dog eared and ripped i cant afford new 500$ ones so hand
drawings or anything would be appreciated
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217094#217094
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can you clearify the legitimately because the plans as i said came from my friend.
he told me he had aquired them at yard sale they are 75% or better complete.
I have the complete measurments and stuff on body most of the wing one part
was a little smuged but I winged it and looks wonderful. one part missing for
sure is the rudder i have thought about coming up with something myself but am
a little worried about that.
as for quility of metal I have the pick of the litter best of all its all free
from my family and i have a expirenced 15 year plus welder working with alluminum
that will help me thank GOD for family
so would i quilify for 75 $ reprints that is perfect ( in my budget range) [Question]
[Question]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217102#217102
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i really hope i can get the rudder details as the rest i feel i could mange i am
young and thats 3 weeks pay for me.
anyone willing to do some hand drawings or something would be greatly respected
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217104#217104
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There should be a serial number stamped on the plans (maybe on every page).
Something like 7-1234. If you call Zenith they can tell you who is the
registered owner for that number. They could also tell you how you could
qualify to buy updated plans. How old are the plans? Check the cover page
(if you have it) or look in the lower corner of a number of the pages. There
were significant upgrades in 2001 and 2002.
Everyone who thinks about building a Zenith aircraft starts with the rudder.
So there are a lot of them around. Someone might be willing to give you one
for a 701 (although building one is a great introduction to building a
Zenith aircraft). Where are you located?
BTW: there is a another list on Matronics specific to the 701 and 801. You
might want to join that one too.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gotosteven
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 6:40 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans
can you clearify the legitimately because the plans as i said came from my
friend. he told me he had aquired them at yard sale they are 75% or better
complete. I have the complete measurments and stuff on body most of the wing
one part was a little smuged but I winged it and looks wonderful. one part
missing for sure is the rudder i have thought about coming up with something
myself but am a little worried about that.
as for quility of metal I have the pick of the litter best of all its all
free from my family and i have a expirenced 15 year plus welder working with
alluminum that will help me thank GOD for family
so would i quilify for 75 $ reprints that is perfect ( in my budget range)
[Question] [Question]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217102#217102
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| Subject: | Tundra wheels and brakes for 701 for sale |
I have a set of Tundras (Titan 4 ply 8.00 x 6.00) for the 701,
Includes new tires and tubes, Matco dual caliper brakes and axles.
These are hardly used and condition is like new. They were removed to
convert to floats. These are ready to bolt on.
New price from Zenith is S 1169.00.
I'm selling these for $850.00
Please contact me directy
jerry@jerryhey.com
DSCF1261.JPG
DSCF1263.JPG
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: |
Zenith-List: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not)
Gentlemen:
As a pilot for 48 years, I have never heard of aircraft cables being checked
hot and cold to insure they are safe! Yes, if you assemble your aircraft in
Alaska at -40 degrees, then fly to Death Valley at +120 degrees you might
have some bent pieces in your plane, however I am sure that if you are
comfortable working in your shop when you do your cable tension you don't have
to
worry about it. As the plane expands more than the cables they will get tighter
in the hot weather, and slacken just a bit in the cold weather. I've owned
the same aircraft for nearly 20 years (Cherokee 180) and the manual just
gives this: Rudder, Ailerons,Stabilizer 40 +/- 5# ; Stabilator trim 5 +/- 1#
;
Flap 10 +/- 2#. Notice the trim is the most critical. There is no mention of
temperature limits when rigging.
Elbie Mendenhall
CFI since '62; EAA 38308
**************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW
AOL.com.
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i guess the plans i got are bogus :( :( oh well i am gonna try my best and fab
somthing up i got the control schmatic and overall of parts i just will be
guessing on the rib and plate measurments try and go oversize if anyone has some
pointers email me please
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Hi Steven,
I hope you find building a plane to be a great
activity. Unfortunately, there are some unavoidable costs involved
in building a plane that is actually reasonably safe to fly.
I am concerned about your approach in a couple of critical
areas. First, the exact metal alloy used for any plane is
critical. Using scrap metal of unknown alloy and history is a
formula for disaster. Similarly, using cheap bolts and other
hardware instead of the mil. spec. ones will also get you killed on
your maiden flight.
I recommend you get a good set of plans and building instructions
from one of the many good sources. It is difficult to choose the
best design, but any of the published sets of plans will be better
for you than a partial set. Considering how many years of effort it
takes to complete a scratch built plane, it is worth spending some
time considering what sort of flying you want to do rather than just
building the first plane that comes along.
You really can build a plane on a budget, but the minimum budget may
be more than your current thinking allows. This is a free country
and you can do whatever you want, but I suggest you take a more
carefully considered approach to airplanes.
You can gain a great deal by joining the EAA and going to chapter
meetings as well as the big regional shows. There are lots of
experienced folks in these chapters, and many of them have tricks for
saving money while building planes that you probably haven't thought of yet.
Good luck,
Paul
XL getting close.
At 08:36 PM 11/30/2008, you wrote:
>i guess the plans i got are bogus :( :( oh well i am gonna try my
>best and fab somthing up i got the control schmatic and overall of
>parts i just will be guessing on the rib and plate measurments try
>and go oversize if anyone has some pointers email me please
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