---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/30/08: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:11 AM - Last "Official" Day Of The List Fund Raiser! (Matt Dralle) 1. 01:02 AM - Wing Jigs (LHusky@aol.com) 2. 03:05 AM - Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (Brady) 3. 07:02 AM - Re: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (jaybannist@cs.com) 4. 08:20 AM - Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (Brady) 5. 08:46 AM - Re: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (jaybannist@cs.com) 6. 09:34 AM - Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (Brady) 7. 09:34 AM - Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (Sabrina) 8. 10:02 AM - Re: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (Paul Mulwitz) 9. 10:40 AM - Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (Sabrina) 10. 11:01 AM - Re: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (Paul Mulwitz) 11. 11:51 AM - Tundra wheels and brakes for 701 for sale (Jerry Hey) 12. 03:02 PM - Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (Ron Lendon) 13. 03:04 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (Ken Lilja) 14. 04:47 PM - ch701 Plans (gotosteven) 15. 05:07 PM - Re: ch701 Plans (Craig Payne) 16. 05:42 PM - Re: ch701 Plans (gotosteven) 17. 05:48 PM - Re: ch701 Plans (gotosteven) 18. 06:30 PM - Re: Re: ch701 Plans (Craig Payne) 19. 07:47 PM - Tundra wheels and brakes for 701 for sale (Jerry Hey) 20. 08:34 PM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: (EMAproducts@aol.com) 21. 08:37 PM - Re: ch701 Plans (gotosteven) 22. 09:16 PM - Re: Re: ch701 Plans (Paul Mulwitz) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:11:34 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith-List: Last "Official" Day Of The List Fund Raiser! Dear Listers, Its November 30th and that means three things:.. 1) Today I am now officially 45 years old... 2) It marks that last "official" day of this year's List Fund Raiser! 3) Its the last day I will be bugging everyone for a whole year! If you use the Lists and enjoy the content and the no-advertising, no-spam, and no-censorship way in which they're run, please make a Contribution today to support their continued operation and upkeep. Your $20 or $30 goes a long way to keep the List bills paid. I will be posting the List of Contributors next week so make sure your name is on it! Thank you to everyone that has made a Contribution so far this year! It is greatly appreciated. http://www.matronics.com/contribution Best regards, Matt Dralle Email List and Forum Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:02:27 AM PST US From: LHusky@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Wing Jigs I need to borrow or buy a set of wing jigs. I had a pair but sent them to a guy and now I cannot locate him. To be honest, I cannot even remember his name. I really need a set for a couple of weeks. If anyone has a set, email me off line. Thanks, Larry Husky Madras, Oregon **************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:05:49 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) From: "Brady" Sabrina, The Length differences in your turnbuckle question is called the lead and will depend on the thread type & pitch. If you had a Machinery Hand book you could look up the thread pitch & lead for any thread type. For example: A 1/4 x 24 thread has the pitch of about 0.04167" 1" divided by 24 = 0.041666667" (rounded to 0.04167") so for every revolution the mating pieces would move one pitch (lead). On a turn buckle this is doubled so the lead would be 0.08334" There are 3 classes of threads and the tolerances are different for each class. so there will be some variance depending on the manufacturer and class. Lead = Pitch x Starts (starts is the number of threads (single, double,etc.)) So imagine we had a turnbuckle that was 5/16 x 32 and was a double thread? what is the lead now? :) -------- Brady McCormick Poulsbo, WA www.magnificentmachine.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217030#217030 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) From: jaybannist@cs.com Sabrina, For an AN155-22 turnbuckle with AN161-22 fork end, the threads are 1/4" - 28.? Therefore the take-up per 360 deg turn would be 0.071428" or about 5/64".? For 180 deg, it would be half that. So to get your 4/64" and 6/64", you would turn the turnbuckle barrel about a quarter turn each way. Jay in Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Sabrina Sent: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 11:41 pm Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) Ron, Since you were all geared up to stretch some cables for Gig, would you please set up a cable the same length as an aileron cable, tension it to 30 pounds and then adjust the turnbuckle 4/64th and 6/64th tighter and tell us the tensions. Then adjust it back to 30, and then adjust it 4/64th and 6/64th looser and tell us the tensions. I cannot find any charts/tables even guesstimating the change in tension. We could all post our guesses and have a little fun with the issue. Everything on this list is so serious lately. Building is FUN! Sincerely, Sabrina P.S. My guess would be: 34, 36, 26, 24 P.P.S. Does anyone know what the "take up/let out" is for each 180 degree rotation of the turnbuckle? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=216950#216950 ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:46 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) From: "Brady" Jay, I think you may have misunderstood her question. :) I looked to me as though she was asking what the adjustments would net in tension. For example: If you started with a cable tensioned to 30lbs then tightened it 4-6/64Th's what would the tension be? (31lbs?) My guess is that it would be insignificant. The aileron spec is 30lbs +/- 5lbs. I doubt you would see a difference of 1 pound either way. I could be wrong, it's happened before :) Sabrina, there is a formula for that but I haven't found it yet. Still looking :) I am sure the tension to turnbuckle lead is not linear. The cable will continue to stretch until you reach the yield strength and so the ratio is a "parabolic" curve. (if I'm using that right?) The Curve will depend on material, diameter and class (construction; IE 6x19, 6x25, 6x32 etc.) of the wire rope. also the length of the cable will have a lot to do with it. The stretch is a percentage so a shorter cable will stretch less total distance than a longer one will. If you decide to take on that experiment and take it to cable failure, be very careful! I have seen cables break before and they store an amazing amount of energy! -------- Brady McCormick Poulsbo, WA www.magnificentmachine.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217048#217048 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:02 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) From: jaybannist@cs.com Brady, No, I didn't misunderstand her main question.? I just didn't know the answer to it. (:>) What I answered was her secondary question about take-up measurements when turning the turnbuckle. Jay in Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Brady Sent: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 10:19 am Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) Jay, I think you may have misunderstood her question. :) I looked to me as though she was asking what the adjustments would net in tension. For example: If you started with a cable tensioned to 30lbs then tightened it 4-6/64Th's what would the tension be? (31lbs?) My guess is that it would be insignificant. The aileron spec is 30lbs +/- 5lbs. I doubt you would see a difference of 1 pound either way. I could be wrong, it's happened before :) Sabrina, there is a formula for that but I haven't found it yet. Still looking :) I am sure the tension to turnbuckle lead is not linear. The cable will continue to stretch until you reach the yield strength and so the ratio is a "parabolic" curve. (if I'm using that right?) The Curve will depend on material, diameter and class (construction; IE 6x19, 6x25, 6x32 etc.) of the wire rope. also the length of the cable will have a lot to do with it. The stretch is a percentage so a shorter cable will stretch less total distance than a longer one will. If you decide to take on that experiment and take it to cable failure, be very careful! I have seen cables break before and they store an amazing amount of energy! -------- Brady McCormick Poulsbo, WA www.magnificentmachine.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217048#217048 ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:34:44 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) From: "Brady" Oh, gotcha, :) -------- Brady McCormick Poulsbo, WA www.magnificentmachine.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217062#217062 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:34:49 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) From: "Sabrina" Thanks guys--your explanation seems so obvious, sorry I missed it, it must be all the turkey (tryptophan.) So it is Ron's turn :o) It seems my guess as to tension change is too great. Any others willing to post before Ron does his experiment? The winner gets a Christmas card containing an invite to the launch of N5887Q in June of 2018 (fall back dates 2020 & 2035.) Ron gets an invite for just doing the experiment. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217061#217061 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:02:53 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) Hi Sabrina, I am not willing to play the game your way, but I can supply a slightly different point of view that might be helpful. The question I can answer, sort of, is how much cable tension can you generate by turning the turnbuckle by hand. The answer is something around 25 pounds of tension. You can get this through a long tortuous set of calculations on the cable and thread along with the diameter of the turnbuckle barrel, or you can measure the tension achieved by hand after the new tensiometer arrives from Aircraft Spruce. Guess which method I used . . . Paul XL getting close At 09:34 AM 11/30/2008, you wrote: >Thanks guys--your explanation seems so obvious, sorry I missed it, >it must be all the turkey (tryptophan.) > >So it is Ron's turn :o) > >It seems my guess as to tension change is too great. > >Any others willing to post before Ron does his experiment? > >The winner gets a Christmas card containing an invite to the launch >of N5887Q in June of 2018 (fall back dates 2020 & 2035.) > >Ron gets an invite for just doing the experiment. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:40:41 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) From: "Sabrina" Dear Paul, So, when you back off the tension 1/2 turn what happens? A full turn? The other way? How many degrees of rotation per 5 pounds of tension change each way? If you use those turnbuckle safety clips rather than safety wire, how much rotation can you get with those installed? (We are talking about the Zenith supplied turnbuckles) Thanks, Sabrina Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217064#217064 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:53 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) Hi Sabrina, I'm really not sure. I hooked up the elevator and rudder cables and safety wired them before getting the tensiometer. I intend to take them all apart and redo the tension to the new specs some day. As I recall the process, the tension really didn't build until the last turn or so on the turnbuckle. This would be the case if there was very little stretch in the whole system. My best guess now is backing off a half turn on the turnbuckle would remove all the tension in the cable. My point in making my post was not clear so let me try to make it clearer. It is a lot easier to figure mechanical advantage and work from force (applied to the turnbuckle) to force (tension on the cable) than to go about analyzing the impact of the thread on the cable. Indeed, I am not at all sure the cable is the most interesting part of this whole system. It may be that the aluminum sheets, plastic fairleads, and other exotic things like play in the control surface hinges play bigger roles than stretching the cable. This is just as true after some time has passed as it is when first applying tension to the cables. After half a lifetime working as an electrical engineer, I am a firm believer in "Closed Loop Control Systems". In this case, it means taking measurements of cable tension and adjusting the turnbuckle to get the tension you want rather than trying to predict the tension achieved from a certain amount of turns. The second choice is an "Open loop" system since there is no feedback of results. Sorry about the lecture . . . Paul XL getting close At 10:39 AM 11/30/2008, you wrote: > >Dear Paul, > >So, when you back off the tension 1/2 turn what happens? > >A full turn? > >The other way? > >How many degrees of rotation per 5 pounds of tension change each way? > >If you use those turnbuckle safety clips rather than safety wire, >how much rotation can you get with those installed? (We are talking >about the Zenith supplied turnbuckles) > >Thanks, > >Sabrina ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:51:47 AM PST US From: Jerry Hey Subject: Zenith-List: Tundra wheels and brakes for 701 for sale I have a set of Tundras (Titan 4 ply 8.00 x 6.00) for the 701, Includes new tires and tubes, Matco dual caliper brakes and axles. These are hardly used and condition is like new. They removed to convert to floats. These are ready to bolt on. New price from Zenith is S 1169.00. I'm selling these for $850.00 Please contact me directy jerry@jerryhey.com DSCF1261.JPG DSCF1263.JPG ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:48 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) From: "Ron Lendon" Sabrina, I accept the launch invitation, but decline on the test fixture challenge for cable tension. I'm back at the school KISS and will probably make a Larry Mac tension gauge and be done with it. Read my initial post and I believe I conveyed this position in my note to Gig. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217083#217083 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:04:45 PM PST US From: Ken Lilja Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) With an installed cable you are tensioning a sorta stretchable cable against a very springy airframe. 1 turn on the turnbuckle on one aircraft may change the tension twice as much as on another. As a side note, Beech uses springs in the LG retract system with pushrod tensions. Bonanza series. Cessna uses the airframe as the "spring". 300 - 400 series. Ken Lilja Zenith-List message posted by: "Sabrina" Dear Paul, So, when you back off the tension 1/2 turn what happens? A full turn? The other way? How many degrees of rotation per 5 pounds of tension change each way? If you use those turnbuckle safety clips rather than safety wire, how much rotation can you get with those installed? (We are talking about the Zenith supplied turnbuckles) Thanks, Sabrina ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:47:13 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: ch701 Plans From: "gotosteven" Hi my name is steven phillips I am 19 years old and am going to start building a ch701. I have a scrap yard and this is where i will get my inventory to turn into parts. I have completed building all the regular size Ribs but need more blueprints for rudder ribs and the smaller ribs closest to the plane. Any help would be greatly appreciated my email address is gotosteven@hotmail.com thanks again P.S the blueprints i got for free from a friend are not complete they are missing many pages dog eared and ripped i cant afford new 500$ ones so hand drawings or anything would be appreciated Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217094#217094 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:08 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: ch701 Plans If the plans are legitimately yours (meaning they haven't been used to build another 701 and the owner of record tells Zenith to transfer them to you) then you can order the latest plans for $75 (that includes the photo assembly CD). If the above is not true then you owe it to the designer to pay him for the design. The price is US$425. The only other thing you have to worry about is the quality and alloy of the metal coming out of your scrap yard :-) -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gotosteven Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 5:46 PM Subject: Zenith-List: ch701 Plans Hi my name is steven phillips I am 19 years old and am going to start building a ch701. I have a scrap yard and this is where i will get my inventory to turn into parts. I have completed building all the regular size Ribs but need more blueprints for rudder ribs and the smaller ribs closest to the plane. Any help would be greatly appreciated my email address is gotosteven@hotmail.com thanks again P.S the blueprints i got for free from a friend are not complete they are missing many pages dog eared and ripped i cant afford new 500$ ones so hand drawings or anything would be appreciated Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217094#217094 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:02 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans From: "gotosteven" can you clearify the legitimately because the plans as i said came from my friend. he told me he had aquired them at yard sale they are 75% or better complete. I have the complete measurments and stuff on body most of the wing one part was a little smuged but I winged it and looks wonderful. one part missing for sure is the rudder i have thought about coming up with something myself but am a little worried about that. as for quility of metal I have the pick of the litter best of all its all free from my family and i have a expirenced 15 year plus welder working with alluminum that will help me thank GOD for family so would i quilify for 75 $ reprints that is perfect ( in my budget range) [Question] [Question] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217102#217102 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:27 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans From: "gotosteven" i really hope i can get the rudder details as the rest i feel i could mange i am young and thats 3 weeks pay for me. anyone willing to do some hand drawings or something would be greatly respected Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217104#217104 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:30:58 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans There should be a serial number stamped on the plans (maybe on every page). Something like 7-1234. If you call Zenith they can tell you who is the registered owner for that number. They could also tell you how you could qualify to buy updated plans. How old are the plans? Check the cover page (if you have it) or look in the lower corner of a number of the pages. There were significant upgrades in 2001 and 2002. Everyone who thinks about building a Zenith aircraft starts with the rudder. So there are a lot of them around. Someone might be willing to give you one for a 701 (although building one is a great introduction to building a Zenith aircraft). Where are you located? BTW: there is a another list on Matronics specific to the 701 and 801. You might want to join that one too. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gotosteven Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 6:40 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans can you clearify the legitimately because the plans as i said came from my friend. he told me he had aquired them at yard sale they are 75% or better complete. I have the complete measurments and stuff on body most of the wing one part was a little smuged but I winged it and looks wonderful. one part missing for sure is the rudder i have thought about coming up with something myself but am a little worried about that. as for quility of metal I have the pick of the litter best of all its all free from my family and i have a expirenced 15 year plus welder working with alluminum that will help me thank GOD for family so would i quilify for 75 $ reprints that is perfect ( in my budget range) [Question] [Question] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217102#217102 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:02 PM PST US From: Jerry Hey Subject: Zenith-List: Tundra wheels and brakes for 701 for sale I have a set of Tundras (Titan 4 ply 8.00 x 6.00) for the 701, Includes new tires and tubes, Matco dual caliper brakes and axles. These are hardly used and condition is like new. They were removed to convert to floats. These are ready to bolt on. New price from Zenith is S 1169.00. I'm selling these for $850.00 Please contact me directy jerry@jerryhey.com DSCF1261.JPG DSCF1263.JPG ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:57 PM PST US From: EMAproducts@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: Zenith-List: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) Gentlemen: As a pilot for 48 years, I have never heard of aircraft cables being checked hot and cold to insure they are safe! Yes, if you assemble your aircraft in Alaska at -40 degrees, then fly to Death Valley at +120 degrees you might have some bent pieces in your plane, however I am sure that if you are comfortable working in your shop when you do your cable tension you don't have to worry about it. As the plane expands more than the cables they will get tighter in the hot weather, and slacken just a bit in the cold weather. I've owned the same aircraft for nearly 20 years (Cherokee 180) and the manual just gives this: Rudder, Ailerons,Stabilizer 40 +/- 5# ; Stabilator trim 5 +/- 1# ; Flap 10 +/- 2#. Notice the trim is the most critical. There is no mention of temperature limits when rigging. Elbie Mendenhall CFI since '62; EAA 38308 **************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:08 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans From: "gotosteven" i guess the plans i got are bogus :( :( oh well i am gonna try my best and fab somthing up i got the control schmatic and overall of parts i just will be guessing on the rib and plate measurments try and go oversize if anyone has some pointers email me please Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217124#217124 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:55 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans Hi Steven, I hope you find building a plane to be a great activity. Unfortunately, there are some unavoidable costs involved in building a plane that is actually reasonably safe to fly. I am concerned about your approach in a couple of critical areas. First, the exact metal alloy used for any plane is critical. Using scrap metal of unknown alloy and history is a formula for disaster. Similarly, using cheap bolts and other hardware instead of the mil. spec. ones will also get you killed on your maiden flight. I recommend you get a good set of plans and building instructions from one of the many good sources. It is difficult to choose the best design, but any of the published sets of plans will be better for you than a partial set. Considering how many years of effort it takes to complete a scratch built plane, it is worth spending some time considering what sort of flying you want to do rather than just building the first plane that comes along. You really can build a plane on a budget, but the minimum budget may be more than your current thinking allows. This is a free country and you can do whatever you want, but I suggest you take a more carefully considered approach to airplanes. You can gain a great deal by joining the EAA and going to chapter meetings as well as the big regional shows. There are lots of experienced folks in these chapters, and many of them have tricks for saving money while building planes that you probably haven't thought of yet. Good luck, Paul XL getting close. At 08:36 PM 11/30/2008, you wrote: >i guess the plans i got are bogus :( :( oh well i am gonna try my >best and fab somthing up i got the control schmatic and overall of >parts i just will be guessing on the rib and plate measurments try >and go oversize if anyone has some pointers email me please ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.