---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/01/08: 39 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:22 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Digest: (steve) 2. 06:47 AM - Nicopress Tool Gauge (Don Mountain) 3. 07:19 AM - Re: questions about Michelin S38 tires for CH601HDS (LarryMcFarland) 4. 07:27 AM - Re: Nicopress Tool Gauge (LarryMcFarland) 5. 08:27 AM - Re: ch701 Plans (gotosteven) 6. 08:46 AM - Re: Jabiru 3300A engine mount (DaveG601XL) 7. 08:51 AM - Chat Reminder (George Race) 8. 09:50 AM - Re: Re: ch701 Plans (Dirk Zahtilla) 9. 09:55 AM - Re: Re: ch701 Plans (Flydog1966@aol.com) 10. 10:19 AM - Re: Re: ch701 Plans (Bob Collins) 11. 10:52 AM - Re: Re: ch701 Plans (jaybannist@cs.com) 12. 11:06 AM - Re: Re: ch701 Plans (steve) 13. 11:52 AM - Re: ch701 Plans (gotosteven) 14. 11:57 AM - Re: ch701 Plans (gotosteven) 15. 12:15 PM - Re: Re: ch701 Plans (Roger & Lina Hill) 16. 12:19 PM - Re: Re: ch701 Plans (Jeyoung65@aol.com) 17. 12:20 PM - Re: ch701 Plans (pavel569) 18. 02:01 PM - Re: Re: ch701 Plans (ZodieRocket) 19. 02:41 PM - On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac (MHerder) 20. 02:54 PM - Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac (Gig Giacona) 21. 02:57 PM - Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac (MHerder) 22. 03:06 PM - Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac (Jeyoung65@aol.com) 23. 03:08 PM - Re: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac (jaybannist@cs.com) 24. 03:37 PM - Re: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac (Juan Vega) 25. 03:41 PM - Re: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac (Juan Vega) 26. 03:41 PM - Re: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac (Juan Vega) 27. 03:41 PM - Re: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac (Juan Vega) 28. 03:45 PM - Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac (Juan Vega) 29. 03:46 PM - Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac (Juan Vega) 30. 03:48 PM - Re: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac (jaybannist@cs.com) 31. 06:49 PM - 12 GAL. LEFT FUEL TANK FOR 601XL. (tjlhl) 32. 07:22 PM - Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (jerry Shepaed) 33. 07:32 PM - Re: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) (Paul Mulwitz) 34. 07:42 PM - Re: ch701 Plans (kmccune) 35. 07:59 PM - Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac (Gig Giacona) 36. 08:08 PM - Re: ch701 Plans (gotosteven) 37. 09:09 PM - Re: ch701 Plans (gotosteven) 38. 09:12 PM - Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac (Sabrina) 39. 09:47 PM - Re: ch701 Plans (gotosteven) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:22:50 AM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: >From about one year ago or so: I say again. Elbie Knows. There are engineers with calculators and there is Elbie. I trust Elbie. And, if you want the best angle of attack indicator, contact Elbie. SW ----- Original Message ----- From: EMAproducts@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 9:34 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: Zenith-List: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) Gentlemen: As a pilot for 48 years, I have never heard of aircraft cables being checked hot and cold to insure they are safe! Yes, if you assemble your aircraft in Alaska at -40 degrees, then fly to Death Valley at +120 degrees you might have some bent pieces in your plane, however I am sure that if you are comfortable working in your shop when you do your cable tension you don't have to worry about it. As the plane expands more than the cables they will get tighter in the hot weather, and slacken just a bit in the cold weather. I've owned the same aircraft for nearly 20 years (Cherokee 180) and the manual just gives this: Rudder, Ailerons,Stabilizer 40 +/- 5# ; Stabilator trim 5 +/- 1# ; Flap 10 +/- 2#. Notice the trim is the most critical. There is no mention of temperature limits when rigging. Elbie Mendenhall CFI since '62; EAA 38308 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:16 AM PST US From: Don Mountain Subject: Zenith-List: Nicopress Tool Gauge I purchased a Nicopress type tool from Lowe's, and it didn't come with a ga uge tool to check the compressions.- Can someone please measure the gap o n their 1/8" Nicopress Tool gauge with a vernier caliper or inside micromet er and let me know what it measures so I can produce one? Thanks. Don Mountain 601XL Installing cables =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:26 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Zenith-List: Re: questions about Michelin S38 tires for CH601HDS Hi Roy, I have a 1300 lb gross limit on the plane. Very seldom fly loaded past 1250 lbs. The S-83 tire load-rating is very conservative, probably greater by 50%, because they are used on two wheel motor scooters and a tire failure (i.e. liability) would put the rider on the ground rather quickly. The tires I use are the same and I'd consider the rating adequate for any HDS. They have 125 hours on them with no perceptible wear. The S-83 (not S38) is a very high quality tire with good sidewalls and fit for the Matco 4 x 8 wheel. Do use inner tubes with the bent stems to assure that you're not dependent on a tubeless assembly. I initially had problems with the tube stems during assembly because the edges of the wheel stem holes were sharp and I had to round edges off and add a 1/16th x 1-1/2 diameter rubber washer with an I.D, the size of the stem. Beyond that and pressuring back up to 24 lbs each since cold weather, I've had no problems. see links, http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/tubetireandwasher.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/tubewasherassy.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/pantforkbracketrh.gif Note the fit of the tire and proportions, which are very good for this wheel. (Disregard the pant fork bracket as it's changed that to a better design) I think you'll like these tires, Larry McFarland Roy Thoma wrote: > Larry, > > I have a set of Michelin S38 tires for my CH601HDS and have delayed > installing them because the max load rating of is 375 lbs. I'm curious > if the S38's you use have the same max load rating? Obviously 3 x 375 > is 1125lbs, 75lbs less than the recommended gross weight for the HDS > and 175lbs than the gross weight for my HDS. > > What is the gross weight for your HDS? Are there standard margins for > tires that make you comfortable to exceed the max load rating of the > tires? Is there something else I'm missing? > > I hope this does not sound like I'm criticizing your choice to use > these tires; I am interested in using them also. I admire the work you > did building and flying your HDS. Thanks for your > continued contributions to the community. Feel free to post my > question and your answer to the Matronics site if you feel it is > appropriate. > > Regards, > > Roy Thoma > > N601RT: 2002 CH601HDS, nose gear, Rotax 912ULS, All electric, IFR > equipped, 1080hrs ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:44 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Nicopress Tool Gauge Hi Don, The go-gage for my 1/8th inch cable nico-press is .355 or smaller diameter. See link, http://www.macsmachine.com/images/tjh/cabletools/full/crimpngage.gif Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Don Mountain wrote: > I purchased a Nicopress type tool from Lowe's, and it didn't come with > a gauge tool to check the compressions. Can someone please measure > the gap on their 1/8" Nicopress Tool gauge with a vernier caliper or > inside micrometer and let me know what it measures so I can produce > one? Thanks. > > Don Mountain > 601XL > Installing cables > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:27:23 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans From: "gotosteven" thanks for the great advise i do realize you guys are worried when i say scrap, but that is why i am oversizeing many things as possible eg if it says 0.25 i use 0.40 if it says 1 L bracket i will put 2 back to back as for the bolts i will be purchaseing the proper ones i also have very nice plates of alluminim like 1/2 inch thick and 3/4 inch thick i am sure will be usefull as well Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217170#217170 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:03 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru 3300A engine mount From: "DaveG601XL" Steve, I can't say that I have ever noticed any Jabiru engine movement that concerned me. But I have been in the cockpit for every second that my engine has run so it is only one point of view. I will look closer the next time I do run it. -------- David Gallagher 601 XL/Jabiru 3300 First flight 7/24/08 Phase I flight test complete 10/16/08 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217172#217172 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:49 AM PST US From: "George Race" Subject: Zenith-List: Chat Reminder Please join us for the Monday evening chat room starting around 8:00 PM Eastern Time. http://www.mykitairplane.com/chat/ George Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:50:57 AM PST US From: "Dirk Zahtilla" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans Hi Steven, I know you're probably getting tired of being lectured to but a group like this is behind you and also very concerned for your safety. Re: the aluminum you use, I'm familiar with scrap yards too and for your project I just reccomend that you look for the alloy designation right after the thickness. You should be looking for 6061 T6. You could also use 2024 T3 ( which is actually stronger) If you cannot find one of these designations printed on the sheet DON'T USE IT!!! If you should use an alloy that is T0 it is annealed and very soft(try this in a wing spar or wing skin and it will fold up on you as soon as you get a load on it!)This will eliminate the need for thicker material which might still not be of the same strength even though it is almost twice as thick. Dirk Z Carson City Nv. ideaz1@sbcglobal.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "gotosteven" Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 8:26 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans > > thanks for the great advise i do realize you guys are worried when i say > scrap, but that is why i am oversizeing many things as possible eg if it > says 0.25 i use 0.40 if it says 1 L bracket i will put 2 back to back as > for the bolts i will be purchaseing the proper ones i also have very nice > plates of alluminim like 1/2 inch thick and 3/4 inch thick i am sure will > be usefull as well > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217170#217170 > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:55:07 AM PST US From: Flydog1966@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans That's an excellent idea. In a message dated 12/1/2008 11:28:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, gotosteven@HOTMAIL.COM writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "gotosteven" thanks for the great advise i do realize you guys are worried when i say scrap, but that is why i am oversizeing many things as possible eg if it says 0.25 i use 0.40 if it says 1 L bracket i will put 2 back to back as for the bolts i will be purchaseing the proper ones i also have very nice plates of alluminim like 1/2 inch thick and 3/4 inch thick i am sure will be usefull as well Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217170#217170 **************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:19:37 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans From: Bob Collins I'm sorry, but sarcasm doesn't convey well in text. We have a naive and confused young man who would very much like to build something and I would hope that he might get some useful advice but, at worst, he shouldn't be made fun of. Bob Collins CH750 plans waiting Flydog1966@aol.com wrote: > That's an excellent idea. > > In a message dated 12/1/2008 11:28:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > gotosteven@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > > > thanks for the great advise i do realize you guys are worried when > i say scrap, but that is why i am oversizeing many things as > possible eg if it says 0.25 i use 0.40 if it says 1 L bracket i > will put 2 back to back as for the bolts i will be purchaseing the > proper ones i also have very nice plates of alluminim like 1/2 > inch thick and 3/4 inch thick i am sure will be usefull as well > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217170#217170 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:07 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans From: jaybannist@cs.com Bob, I agree.? However, I don't think this young man understands the serious nature of this project he wants to undertake.? 1) Building an airplane is absolutely not like building a kid's pedal car from scrap aluminum, 2) An airplane design is a VERY complicated thing, not to be "thumb-ruled" or "by guess and by goshed", ? 3) Unless it is the proper alloy and temper (6061-T6 or 2024-T4), scrap aluminum has no place in an airplane, 4) simply oversizing does not ensure safety,? 5) a haphazard approach to constructing an airplane can result in DEATH. I feel that Steven's approach to this project is MUCH too casual and is potentially dangerous. I am afraid for him. I would like to encourage Steven to do some serious study and investigation about airplane building before attempting to build an airplane from a tattered, out of date, partial set of design drawings, trying to guess at the missing parts and adlibbing with available? materials, simply because they are available. Jay In Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Bob Collins Sent: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:17 pm Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans ? I'm sorry, but sarcasm doesn't convey well in text. We have a naive and confused young man who would very much like to build something and I would hope that he might get some useful advice but, at worst, he shouldn't be made fun of.? ? Bob Collins? CH750 plans waiting? ? Flydog1966@aol.com wrote:? > That's an excellent idea.? > > In a message dated 12/1/2008 11:28:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > gotosteven@HOTMAIL.COM writes:? >? > ? >? > thanks for the great advise i do realize you guys are worried when? > i say scrap, but that is why i am oversizeing many things as? > possible eg if it says 0.25 i use 0.40 if it says 1 L bracket i? > will put 2 back to back as for the bolts i will be purchaseing the? > proper ones i also have very nice plates of alluminim like 1/2? > inch thick and 3/4 inch thick i am sure will be usefull as well? >? >? >? >? > Read this topic online here:? >? > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217170#217170? >? >? >? ? ? ? ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:03 AM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans When you complete you "aircraft", please tell us when and where you will test fly it We want to watch. Or maybe not.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "gotosteven" Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:26 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans > > thanks for the great advise i do realize you guys are worried when i say > scrap, but that is why i am oversizeing many things as possible eg if it > says 0.25 i use 0.40 if it says 1 L bracket i will put 2 back to back as > for the bolts i will be purchaseing the proper ones i also have very nice > plates of alluminim like 1/2 inch thick and 3/4 inch thick i am sure will > be usefull as well > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217170#217170 > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:54 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans From: "gotosteven" well good news is lots of the stuff i have collected does have 2024 T3 rate on it some of the stuff i had i had to part with due to not being sure as for the design of the oversizing smaller stuff like 025 is just not available 040 is plentiful so that is defenatly one of main reasons behind that also i have 100% faith in my father in laws skills and i am not such a noob myself as i have built dunebuggy and gocart before well if anyone is truely intrested in watching me fly or help me build it i will be building it at 432 webber road pelham ontario canada right acroos the road from welland private airport Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217200#217200 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:57:19 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans From: "gotosteven" some of us color inside the lines other like to paint a masterpiece laugh all you want Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217202#217202 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:15:02 PM PST US From: "Roger & Lina Hill" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans I think you can build a plane of WOOD from scrap, if you know what your looking for and oversize questionable pieces, but the Zenith line uses the thinnest aluminum I have ever seen on a plane, and I agree it's critical to use metal at least as strong as the 6061, and only if it is heat treated to the proper levels as this makes a big difference in the strength as well. If you go with 2024 aluminum, you have the corrosion problem to account for as well Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jaybannist@cs.com Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 12:49 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans Bob, I agree. However, I don't think this young man understands the serious nature of this project he wants to undertake. 1) Building an airplane is absolutely not like building a kid's pedal car from scrap aluminum, 2) An airplane design is a VERY complicated thing, not to be "thumb-ruled" or "by guess and by goshed", 3) Unless it is the proper alloy and temper (6061-T6 or 2024-T4), scrap aluminum has no place in an airplane, 4) simply oversizing does not ensure safety, 5) a haphazard approach to constructing an airplane can result in DEATH. I feel that Steven's approach to this project is MUCH too casual and is potentially dangerous. I am afraid for him. I would like to encourage Steven to do some serious study and investigation about airplane building before attempting to build an airplane from a tattered, out of date, partial set of design drawings, trying to guess at the missing parts and adlibbing with available materials, simply because they are available. Jay In Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Bob Collins Sent: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:17 pm Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans I'm sorry, but sarcasm doesn't convey well in text. We have a naive and confused young man who would very much like to build something and I would hope that he might get some useful advice but, at worst, he shouldn't be made fun of. Bob Collins CH750 plans waiting Flydog1966@aol.com wrote: > That's an excellent idea. > > In a message dated 12/1/2008 11:28:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > gotosteven@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > > > thanks for the great advise i do realize you guys are worried when > i say scrap, but that is why i am oversizeing many things as > possible eg if it says 0.25 i use 0.40 if it says 1 L bracket i > will put 2 back to back as for the bolts i will be purchaseing the > proper ones i also have very nice plates of alluminim like 1/2 > inch thick and 3/4 inch thick i am sure will be usefull as well > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217170#217170 > > > _____ size=2 width="100%" align=center> Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:36 PM PST US From: Jeyoung65@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans Would suggest you contact your local EAA and talk to them. If you are planning on using .040 for the skin, not sure the aircraft will get off the ground due to it's wt. Jerry of GA DO NOT ARCHIVE In a message dated 12/1/2008 2:54:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, gotosteven@HOTMAIL.COM writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "gotosteven" well good news is lots of the stuff i have collected does have 2024 T3 rate on it some of the stuff i had i had to part with due to not being sure as for the design of the oversizing smaller stuff like 025 is just not available 040 is plentiful so that is defenatly one of main reasons behind that also i have 100% faith in my father in laws skills and i am not such a noob myself as i have built dunebuggy and gocart before well if anyone is truely intrested in watching me fly or help me build it i will be building it at 432 webber road pelham ontario canada right acroos the road from welland private airport Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217200#217200 **************Finally, one site has it all: your friends, your email, your com40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000006) ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:20:25 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans From: "pavel569" Steven, 99% of us are not laughing. We're just worry about potential disaster that could happen. Every airplane is very carefully designed , very complex machine that, not like a gocart, is purposed to fly. Every change of material as thickness or type can lead to a breakup. Oversizing will cause change of CG and the plane can be hard to balance properly. Just be careful and try to talk a show what you do to someone with an airplane under his/her belt first. Nobody wants you to quit building your dream, we just want you to fly it safely for many years to come. -------- Pavel CA Zodiac XL N581PM (Reserved) Stratus Subaru EA-81 Tail, flaps, ailerons, wings done, fuselage is on the table .... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217206#217206 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:01:27 PM PST US From: "ZodieRocket" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans Steven, please please, drive 45 min north to Kitchener /Waterloo international airport and visit with me for a bit, I applaud your desire for building an aircraft and I am willing to offer advice in your endeavor. However, I am apprehensive on some of the things you have stated. For your STOL 701 to be a basic UL in Canada It must conform to the plans and you will need to use your serial # from those plans to register your plane so a owned set of plans is necessary . IF it was a kit you would need to come to me for a Statement of conformity also. If you plan on registering your plane in the homebuilt category then you will need to have inspections from the MD-RA and as such you will need to prove material will once again match the plans in thickness and composition. The plans you have at present are likely a very old set and over 200 changes have happened since 98 - 08 about 21 of them structural. I have 3 701's in the hanger right now and parts of the 750 and a 650. Come up for a visit and bring your parts for me to look over ( no charge for time ). If you are making ribs and such out of .040 material then I can guarantee that the material is not acceptable or the part will not be acceptable, but I will be more then happy for you to prove me wrong. IF I am right then I will explain how you can make it right. AS for you abilities, I trust you can do this and believe that you have the ability, but keep in mind that your life in a dune buggy and go cart is not in jeopardy if you have made small errors, if the engine stops or the bumper falls off then you just tow it home. In a plane you have a problem and you have to answer to gravity which is the least forgiving forces on this earth. Also I am reading more into your letters, but I am pretty sure that at this point you do not have a license or permit to fly your plane. Therefore, training is in order and I will be offering UL training in the 701 and 650 in the spring. Once again another reason to come up for a visit, you are not allowed to fly in Canada in any aircraft without registration/training/ proof of liability insurance. I receive calls quite often from the latter for proof of ownership and construction. Mark Townsend Can-Zac Aviation Ltd. 519-590-7601 www.canzac.ca Canadian Dealer for Zenith Aircraft Kits, Zenair Designs. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gotosteven Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 2:50 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans well good news is lots of the stuff i have collected does have 2024 T3 rate on it some of the stuff i had i had to part with due to not being sure as for the design of the oversizing smaller stuff like 025 is just not available 040 is plentiful so that is defenatly one of main reasons behind that also i have 100% faith in my father in laws skills and i am not such a noob myself as i have built dunebuggy and gocart before well if anyone is truely intrested in watching me fly or help me build it i will be building it at 432 webber road pelham ontario canada right acroos the road from welland private airport Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217200#217200 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:41:50 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac From: "MHerder" I hope this link works. http://fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/12/01/1685159.aspx -------- One Rivet at a Time! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217222#217222 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:54:17 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac From: "Gig Giacona" That is fantastic but assuming that was really the first flight can anyone find the FAR violation? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217225#217225 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:51 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac From: "MHerder" I thought the same with two folks in the plane and all... -------- One Rivet at a Time! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217226#217226 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:22 PM PST US From: Jeyoung65@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac Did I see two people in this aircraft for it's first flight? Jerry of GA DO NOT ARCHIVE In a message dated 12/1/2008 5:42:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, michaelherder@beckgroup.com writes: http://fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/12/01/1685159.aspx **************Finally, one site has it all: your friends, your email, your favorite sites. Try the NEW AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac From: jaybannist@cs.com The way I got the original story, Juan Vega was actually the instigator and mentor.? He was also the pilot, not the safety pilot.? Even though I thoroughly disagree with it, I have been told many times, emphatically, that having two people in the airplane before the 40 hour (or in some cases 25 hour) test period has been flown off is a violation of the regulations for an experimental airplane. Jay in Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Gig Giacona Sent: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 4:53 pm Subject: Zenith-List: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac That is fantastic but assuming that was really the first flight can anyone find the FAR violation? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217225#217225 ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:37:23 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac Gig, what do you mean by FAR violation? there was none by what I remember. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Gig Giacona >Sent: Dec 1, 2008 5:53 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac > > >That is fantastic but assuming that was really the first flight can anyone find the FAR violation? > >-------- >W.R. "Gig" Giacona >601XL Under Construction >See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217225#217225 > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:50 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac GUys, The Head of the FAA was there, gave the preflight inspection and gave me the pilot in command authorization for one touch and go around the airport. special airworthiness certificate signed off by the head of the regional FAA. This plane is signed off by the FAA to have only 15 hours to fly off. Both me and another pilot who is an FAA inspector willl fly off the hours. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: jaybannist@cs.com >Sent: Dec 1, 2008 6:07 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac > > > The way I got the original story, Juan Vega was actually the instigator and mentor.? He was also the pilot, not the safety pilot.? Even though I thoroughly disagree with it, I have been told many times, emphatically, that having two people in the airplane before the 40 hour (or in some cases 25 hour) test period has been flown off is a violation of the regulations for an experimental airplane. > >Jay in Dallas > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Gig Giacona >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Sent: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 4:53 pm >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac > > > >That is fantastic but assuming that was really the first flight can anyone find >the FAR violation? > >-------- >W.R. "Gig" Giacona >601XL Under Construction >See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217225#217225 > > > > >________________________________________________________________________ >Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:51 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac GUys, The Head of the FAA was there, gave the preflight inspection and gave me the pilot in command authorization for one touch and go around the airport. special airworthiness certificate signed off by the head of the regional FAA. This plane is signed off by the FAA to have only 15 hours to fly off. Both me and another pilot who is an FAA inspector willl fly off the hours. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: jaybannist@cs.com >Sent: Dec 1, 2008 6:07 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac > > > The way I got the original story, Juan Vega was actually the instigator and mentor.? He was also the pilot, not the safety pilot.? Even though I thoroughly disagree with it, I have been told many times, emphatically, that having two people in the airplane before the 40 hour (or in some cases 25 hour) test period has been flown off is a violation of the regulations for an experimental airplane. > >Jay in Dallas > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Gig Giacona >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Sent: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 4:53 pm >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac > > > >That is fantastic but assuming that was really the first flight can anyone find >the FAR violation? > >-------- >W.R. "Gig" Giacona >601XL Under Construction >See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217225#217225 > > > > >________________________________________________________________________ >Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:51 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac GUys, The Head of the FAA was there, gave the preflight inspection and gave me the pilot in command authorization for one touch and go around the airport. special airworthiness certificate signed off by the head of the regional FAA. This plane is signed off by the FAA to have only 15 hours to fly off. Both me and another pilot who is an FAA inspector willl fly off the hours. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: jaybannist@cs.com >Sent: Dec 1, 2008 6:07 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac > > > The way I got the original story, Juan Vega was actually the instigator and mentor.? He was also the pilot, not the safety pilot.? Even though I thoroughly disagree with it, I have been told many times, emphatically, that having two people in the airplane before the 40 hour (or in some cases 25 hour) test period has been flown off is a violation of the regulations for an experimental airplane. > >Jay in Dallas > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Gig Giacona >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Sent: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 4:53 pm >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac > > > >That is fantastic but assuming that was really the first flight can anyone find >the FAR violation? > >-------- >W.R. "Gig" Giacona >601XL Under Construction >See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217225#217225 > > > > >________________________________________________________________________ >Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:45:31 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac yes you did. signed off by FAA regional head. plane has 15 hour fly off. we also got a special certificate for flight without a transponder in a class B area as well. flight was restricted to twice round the patch. I will fly off the hours with one other guy who happens to be the FAA inspector. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Jeyoung65@aol.com >Sent: Dec 1, 2008 6:05 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac > >Did I see two people in this aircraft for it's first flight? Jerry of GA > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > >In a message dated 12/1/2008 5:42:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >michaelherder@beckgroup.com writes: > >http://fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/12/01/1685159.aspx > >**************Finally, one site has it all: your friends, your email, your >favorite sites. Try the NEW AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:42 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac thanx Herder, i recieved the video from NBC and CNN. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: MHerder >Sent: Dec 1, 2008 5:41 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac > > >I hope this link works. > >http://fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/12/01/1685159.aspx > >-------- >One Rivet at a Time! > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217222#217222 > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:39 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac From: jaybannist@cs.com Juan, Knowing you, I assumed that was the case.? However, the FAA guys around here probably would not have cut you that slack. Jay in Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Juan Vega Sent: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 5:41 pm Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac GUys, The Head of the FAA was there, gave the preflight inspection and gave me the pilot in command authorization for one touch and go around the airport. special airworthiness certificate signed off by the head of the regional FAA. This plane is signed off by the FAA to have only 15 hours to fly off. Both me and another pilot who is an FAA inspector willl fly off the hours. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: jaybannist@cs.com >Sent: Dec 1, 2008 6:07 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac > > > The way I got the original story, Juan Vega was actually the instigator and mentor.? He was also the pilot, not the safety pilot.? Even though I thoroughly disagree with it, I have been told many times, emphatically, that having two people in the airplane before the 40 hour (or in some cases 25 hour) test period has been flown off is a violation of the regulations for an experimental airplane. > >Jay in Dallas > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Gig Giacona >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Sent: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 4:53 pm >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac > > > >That is fantastic but assuming that was really the first flight can anyone find >the FAR violation? > >-------- >W.R. "Gig" Giacona >601XL Under Construction >See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217225#217225 > > > > >________________________________________________________________________ >Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:20 PM PST US From: "tjlhl" Subject: Zenith-List: 12 GAL. LEFT FUEL TANK FOR 601XL. FOR SALE---LEFT 12 GALLON FUEL TANK FOR 601XL. MODIFIED TO FLUSH MOUNT FILLER THREADED ASSEMBLY AND HAS MOUNTING HOLE CUT IN IB END FOR THE VDO GAGE SENDER. (WITHOUT LID, BUY FROM ZAC OR SPRUCE). $225.00 PLUS SHIPPING. i HAVE A BOX TO SHIP IT IN. TOM LOFTIN, CELL NUMBER 816-699-5221. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:39 PM PST US From: "jerry Shepaed" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) I have a scary story to tell about control cables: I used a very expensive nicropress tool to do my cables for my 701, used the gauge and thought all was well. One day before my first flight, I had my shoulders up in the access hole in the bottom of the airplane, stressed one of the cables for the elevator and it let loose!!!!---Needless to say I was really dumbfounded and worried as to what had happened. I later found out after I had built some test cables and placed them under a load of 1500# , that I had used the wrong gauge . I would recommend that everyone who makes up cables test and verify their process. May the angels watch over you as they did me. I am quite certain that a 701 is very difficult to fly with only elevator trim for control. Jerry Shepard.Original Message ----- From: "Ron Lendon" Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 4:44 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) > > FYI > > Today I called my mentor and asked about stretch in the cables. After > much listening I came away with the realization that I won't be conducting > a pre-stretch because that has already happened in the manufacturing > process. > > He did however maintain that checking the tension periodically is > necessary. The major factors effecting the tension are temperature > variation from the last check and wear of the fair leads/pulleys. > > Comparing the expansion coefficients of both: > > Aluminum 12.3 > Steel 7.3 > > You can see Aluminum expands and contracts 5 times that of Steel. So if > you tension your cables on an 80 degree day you can bet they will need it > again on a 0 degree day in the winter. Just some thoughts. > > I checked the cable I got from ACS and it is MIL-DTL-83420 with a red and > gold filament. > > >> There are two easy identification methods that may help you identify >> aircraft control cable: >> >> (1) All MIL-DTL-83420 contains a two-color tracer filament embeded within >> the cable that identifies the manufacturer, >> (2) All MIL-DTL-83420 cable sold on a shipping real must contain the >> identification number of the manufacturing reel. (All MIL-DTL-83420 cable >> is lubricated with a corrosion inhibiter.) >> > > > So Gig, Don't wait for me to set up a test. Keep building. > > -------- > Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI > WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing > Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) > http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=216912#216912 > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:21 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aircraft Control Cable (to stretch or not) How about the pilot who actually landed a DC-10 with no controls at all except throttles. It was a crash caused by loss of the rear door which took out all the hydraulics that ended up somewhere in Iowa (I think). There was some loss of life but lots of survivors. Paul XL getting close do not archive At 07:21 PM 12/1/2008, you wrote: >I am quite certain that a 701 is very difficult to fly with only >elevator trim for control. Jerry Shepard.Original Message ----- >From: "Ron Lendon" ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:55 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans From: "kmccune" Steven, I have been following this post, for you to have even tried this on your own is a pretty big accomplishment. But like others have said the exact materials have to be used in order for the airframe to be what the designer intended. Yes some substitutions are made from time to time, but only after consulting with the designer or the designers representative. That would be Mark Townsend. in your case. If you don't ask the designer, you may end up with something that could be extremely dangerous to fly. And like said about dune-buggies I don't worry too much about my dirt bike, because the worse that will usually happen is I get to walk back to the truck. If my 701 fails( well when I finish it) bad things could happen to me and my family. I don't think that anyone is laughing at you at all, I did think at first that it was someone trying to scam free plans. But it seems that you are what you claim. And as such you should bee vary proud of your accomplishment thus far. Please though, take Mark up on his offer. ( heck I'd take him up on his offer to you if I lived closer!) You can trust him for a fair evaluation of your work and for good advise on changes to make or skills to sharpen. If you go see Mark and are still interested post here that you did and I'll send you my copy of the scratch building basic video. I don't need it any more and it is really pretty good information on building a 701 rudder and had to properly do it from flat stock aluminum. Check up on those plans, if they are not unused plans, you can post on this site and on Barnstormers for unused ones. With the CH750 I think some will be for sale. Sorry I'm too far into the 701 to give mine up!!:^( Best of luck to you and please, take Mark up on his offer. Kevin -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217270#217270 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:44 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac From: "Gig Giacona" Juan you didn't get enough credit in the story. In fact you got so little that I didn't even realize it was your program. You are lucky that you have an FAA regional head that understands that the rules need to get modified from time to time to "promote aviation" which is one of the stated goals of the FAA. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217272#217272 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:47 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans From: "gotosteven" well mabee i just will take you up on that let me try and arrange for a car ride. or mabee i will take the train. i am going to talk with my mother i know she has to go that way next weekend or the weekend after regardless i will try my best to see about a ride and try and get thare before x-mas if its alright Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217275#217275 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:14 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans From: "gotosteven" flat stock aluminum. this is the second time i have heard this mentioned my father in law was saying that he can get me this at very reasonable rate from work 100$ for a 3 by 100ft roll would this be able to be buaght in the proper specs i need?? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217279#217279 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:28 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: On a Positive Note- Teens Build a Zodiac From: "Sabrina" Dear Juan, Can you please send to me via e-mail or post a copy of the 'authorization' and the 'special airworthiness certificate' allowing two on board for the one touch and go. Did the first flight with the canopy open count? Did you require a second authorization for next take-off? I am positive that the Great Lakes Region will consider allowing me the same privileges they granted you if they see it in writing or can contact the "FAA regional head" you were dealing with. Kinda like once one FSDO OKs a field install, the rest will normally follow suit. Was it Mr. Sturgell? Mr. Murphy? Both? That is so cool! Even if it was only POINT 1 hours, I could always say I flew part of the Phase 1. This is GREAT NEWS! Thanking you in advance, Sabrina Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217280#217280 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 09:47:38 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ch701 Plans From: "gotosteven" also i read this Prospective purchasers of Basic Ultra-light Aeroplane kits should be aware that kit manufacturers and part suppliers are bound by no legal requirements under the Aeronautics Act. It is strongly recommended that owners and prospective owners of Basic Ultra-light Aeroplanes avail themselves of the information and services provided by the recreational aviation industry, schools and the ultra-light aviation community. its statement like this that almost make you just want to come up with a rudder of equal size better strenght myself anyone have a total weight for the rudder i want way some stuff up see what me can see Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217284#217284 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.