---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 12/13/08: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:55 AM - Re: Torque tube (Paul Mulwitz) 2. 06:31 AM - Re: Torque tube (Bill Pagan) 3. 07:03 AM - Re: vw in 601 hds (Jimbo) 4. 07:36 AM - Re: Torque tube (LarryMcFarland) 5. 08:32 AM - Re: Grounding Of Fuel Senders (Dave VanLanen) 6. 09:37 AM - Re: Do you know what a throttle bellcrank IS? (Clive Richards) 7. 09:45 AM - Re: vw in 601 hds (Roger & Lina Hill) 8. 09:57 AM - Cost savings (Bill Naumuk) 9. 10:10 AM - Re: Torque tube (vayuwings) 10. 10:18 AM - Re: Digital Level Final (leinad) 11. 10:22 AM - Re: Cost savings (George Swinford) 12. 10:28 AM - Re: Re: Torque tube (Roger & Lina Hill) 13. 10:29 AM - Re: Do you know what a throttle bellcrank IS? (Bill Naumuk) 14. 10:52 AM - Re: Cost savings (Bill Naumuk) 15. 10:53 AM - Re: Re: Digital Level Final (Bill Naumuk) 16. 11:15 AM - Re: A5 rivets, Z angles for sale (azkells) 17. 11:27 AM - Re: Re: Digital Level Final (jaybannist@cs.com) 18. 02:01 PM - Radio tray (Bill Naumuk) 19. 05:23 PM - Re: Torque tube (vayuwings) 20. 07:53 PM - Re: Re: Torque tube (Roger & Lina Hill) 21. 08:08 PM - Re: Cost savings (leinad) 22. 08:20 PM - Re: Re: Cost savings (Carlos Sa) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:55:38 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Torque tube Hi Dave, Perhaps you will get better response from ZAC if you call on the telephone. If you do that during normal business hours you will usually get tech support within a couple of minutes. I don't remember ever actually measuring the angle of the rear tab on the tube, but I think mine has the tab aligned with the stick when it is mounted. It seems to me you do indeed have a flawed part. Paul XL getting close At 11:13 PM 12/12/2008, you wrote: >Hello - I'm new to the list and am building a 601XL... I've given >the topic search my best effort and didn't see anything over the >many pages about my subject, so I'll try and describe it and see if >anyone could share an opinion. >I'm done with the tail and wings and am at a point to test install >the torque tube and the Y stick in the fuse for measurement. With >the tube resting in the rear bearing behind the seat back, and >resting in the front bearing at the center spar, I slid the Y stick >over the tube and temporarily installed a bolt in the pre-drilled >hole for it in the tube. Now attached to the tube, when I center the >Y stick over the ac centerline marked on the top of the center spar, >the rear flange of the tube that will attach to the aileron cables >is a good 10-15 degrees off pointing to the left (pilot side). > I haven't heard from ZAC from my emails a few weeks now, so I > thought I would run it by any interested builder. After one would > tighten the cables to the rear flange, I'm just not sure if that > would work or not. I think the pre-drilled hole was drilled > incorrectly in the tube... >Thanks - >Dave ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:47 AM PST US From: Bill Pagan Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Torque tube Hey Dave, - Yea, sounds like a flawed part.- Mine lines up perfectly (i didn't use a digital level to check it just eyeballed it) vertical with the Y-Stick. Bill Pagan EAA Tech Counselor #4395 --- On Sat, 12/13/08, vayuwings wrote: From: vayuwings Subject: Zenith-List: Torque tube Hello - I'm new to the list and am building a 601XL... I've given the topic search my best effort and didn't see anything over the many pages about my subject, so I'll try and describe it and see if anyone could share an opinion. I'm done with the tail and wings and am at a point to test install the torque tube and the Y stick in the fuse for measurement. With the tube rest ing in the rear bearing behind the seat back, and resting in the front bearing at the center spar, I slid the Y stick over the tube and temporarily installed a bolt in the pre-drilled hole for it in the tube. Now attached to the tube, when I center the Y stick over the ac centerline marked on the top of the center spar, the rear flange of the tube that will attach to the aileron cables is a good 10-15 degrees off pointing to the left (pilot side). I haven't heard from ZAC from my emails a few weeks now, so I thought I would run it by any interested builder. After one would tighten the cables to the rear flange, I'm just not sure if that would work or not. I think the pre-drilled hole was drilled incorrectly in the tube... Thanks - Dave Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219178#219178 =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:07 AM PST US From: Jimbo Subject: RE: Zenith-List: vw in 601 hds I think you may have read the 701 weight limit not the 601, which has even been powered by the Lycoming O-235 with Zenith's blessing. My first candidate for a kit plane was the Sonex with VW power. Once I chos e he 601 airframe (originally 601HD) I realized the VW was not enough engin e, particularly here in the West with high terrain. Jim Lobue 601XL/Corvair --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Roger & Lina Hill wrote: From: Roger & Lina Hill Subject: RE: Zenith-List: vw in 601 hds - Corvair, YIKES,,,, - I thought my VW was heavy. The corvair is WAY over 200 lbs.- Don=A2t ya folks read the max weight spec on the 601s? Ya don=A2t want your engine falling off with your firewall, do ya? - Roger - - - From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 9:04 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vw in 601 hds - Ralph- --- For very little more outlay than a VW, you get 100hp from a Corvair conversion. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Bill --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger & Lina Hill Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 7:20 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: vw in 601 hds - - Anyone flying with a VW?- Ya, that=A2s me, but I have the HDS.- You don=A2t use the 914 with a redrive, here is why. - The VW is already too heavy for the 601 You can=A2t get the waste heat out of the engine if it produces over 80 Hp, the air cooled heads don=A2t have enough fin area. The prop would be too long for the wheel clearance on a redrive. 914 parts cost more than 2180 VW You don=A2t need the extra power, 75 HP will do fine in an HD - Hope this helps - Roger - - - From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Flick Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:10 PM Subject: Zenith-List: vw in 601 hds - is anyone flying a 601 hd - hds with vw power?- i am thinking of useing a porsche 914 2.0 eng with a redrive and would like to hear any comm ents or tips.- thanks- ralph - - -http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-Listhttp://forums.mat ronics.com Incentive Free Terrific s> -http://www.matronics.com/contribution http:/ /www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:17 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Torque tube Hi Dave, I'd suggest you talk with Zenith, Nick or Roger and put that problem to them. They are very good about taking care of issues which relate to their production. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive vayuwings wrote: > > Hello - I'm new to the list and am building a 601XL... I've given the topic search my best effort and didn't see anything over the many pages about my subject, so I'll try and describe it and see if anyone could share an opinion. > I'm done with the tail and wings and am at a point to test install the torque tube and the Y stick in the fuse for measurement. With the tube resting in the rear bearing behind the seat back, and resting in the front bearing at the center spar, I slid the Y stick over the tube and temporarily installed a bolt in the pre-drilled hole for it in the tube. Now attached to the tube, when I center the Y stick over the ac centerline marked on the top of the center spar, the rear flange of the tube that will attach to the aileron cables is a good 10-15 degrees off pointing to the left (pilot side). > I haven't heard from ZAC from my emails a few weeks now, so I thought I would run it by any interested builder. After one would tighten the cables to the rear flange, I'm just not sure if that would work or not. I think the pre-drilled hole was drilled incorrectly in the tube... > Thanks - > Dave > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219178#219178 > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:32:42 AM PST US From: "Dave VanLanen" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Grounding Of Fuel Senders I agree with Gig's statement that the tank must be bonded to the airframe to prevent static electrical discharge during fueling. However I disagree with the statement that the sender is electrically isolated from the tank itself. This is not a guarantee, because the sender mounting screws are screwed directly into a metal backing plate, which is in metal-to-metal contact with the back side (inside) of the fuel tank. The only way the sender might be isolated is if you get "lucky" and all five of the mounting screws do not touch the sides of the mounting holes in the sender. Regards, Dave Time: 06:16:52 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Grounding Of Fuel Senders From: "Gig Giacona" hills(at)sunflower.com wrote: > Wouldn't you want to ground the tank to the airframe, in order to discharge > any static that might try to build up and cause a spark when you open the > filler cap to refill? > > Roger > > > > > -- Of course. There is even a tab on the tank for a ground wire attachment. The ground for the fuel sender is separate because it is electrically isolated from the tank itself. As for running the ground for the sender back to the central ground in the aircraft. I followed the plans and grounded all the electrical items in the wing (Lights and fuel sender) in the wing. I was looking a a Cessna that the local A&P had apart for annual and it lights were grounded in the wing as well. -------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:37:52 AM PST US From: "Clive Richards" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Do you know what a throttle bellcrank IS? Bill I believe the drawing you show is the arrangement for a Rotax with dual bing carbs & dual throttle. If you wish to use this arrangement then far as I can see you can weld the bell crank uprights at any position you wish on the drive shaft provided it clears equipment on your particular engine arrangement the height of the bell crank uprights may require adjusting to give the correct travel to what ever you drive the carb with. We used a single throttle & Idle cut-off sold by aircraft spruce similar to those fitted to C152s to directly operate the carb. they are a belden type cable with solid cores the throttle knob A800 has a friction lock & idle cut off A790 has a lock release knob & vernier control In the Rotax arangement the carbs are opened by a spring pulling on the belden cables from the bell crank, there is no idle cutoff but a choke is fitted. Clive G CBDG 601HD 0-200 275Hrs do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Naumuk To: zenith list Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 11:56 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Do you know what a throttle bellcrank IS? All- 99.99% of the listers who responded to my posts have no idea what I've been talking about. Attached is the section from my HDS manual- THE BIG ROD ASSEMBLY THAT GOES OVER THE HORIZONTAL FIREWALL BRACE! WHERE DO YOU POSITION THE UPRIGHTS TO ACCOMMODATE AN MA3-SPA?? The cable for an MA3 comes from the right side of the centerline looking at the firewall from the front. That's why I'm thinking I can just swap this drawing end for end. Sorry for the use of caps- I'm not mad, just frustrated. Thanks. do not archive Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:53 AM PST US From: "Roger & Lina Hill" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: vw in 601 hds Jim; Ok, ya caught me, I was just trying to stir the pot. !!!!! Yes, I agree that the corvair is not to heavy for the 601 from a structural standpoint. I would note that with my VW installation, the usable load is reduced to about 520 lbs, but some might say that is still fine for a 2 place plane. Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jimbo Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 9:03 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: vw in 601 hds I think you may have read the 701 weight limit not the 601, which has even been powered by the Lycoming O-235 with Zenith's blessing. My first candidate for a kit plane was the Sonex with VW power. Once I chose he 601 airframe (originally 601HD) I realized the VW was not enough engine, particularly here in the West with high terrain. Jim Lobue 601XL/Corvair --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Roger & Lina Hill wrote: From: Roger & Lina Hill Subject: RE: Zenith-List: vw in 601 hds Corvair, YIKES,,,, I thought my VW was heavy. The corvair is WAY over 200 lbs. Don?t ya folks read the max weight spec on the 601s? Ya don?t want your engine falling off with your firewall, do ya? Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 9:04 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: vw in 601 hds Ralph- For very little more outlay than a VW, you get 100hp from a Corvair conversion. Bill do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger & Lina Hill Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 7:20 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: vw in 601 hds Anyone flying with a VW? Ya, that?s me, but I have the HDS. You don?t use the 914 with a redrive, here is why. The VW is already too heavy for the 601 You can?t get the waste heat out of the engine if it produces over 80 Hp, the air cooled heads don?t have enough fin area. The prop would be too long for the wheel clearance on a redrive. 914 parts cost more than 2180 VW You don?t need the extra power, 75 HP will do fine in an HD Hope this helps Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Flick Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:10 PM Subject: Zenith-List: vw in 601 hds is anyone flying a 601 hd - hds with vw power? i am thinking of useing a porsche 914 2.0 eng with a redrive and would like to hear any comments or tips. thanks ralph http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://forums.matronics.com Incentive Free Terrific s> http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matroni="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http:/======================= http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:57:29 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Cost savings All- Regardless of your viewpoint on the digital level, the list came through again. Many moons ago I posted the question of how to level to plus/minus 1 degree. The unanimous list response was with a digital level. No dissention at that time from anyone else. OK, so I'm in the market for a digital level. I thought I had it made with an improperly described HF tool and was back to square one and ask where to find the best deal. Responses came back in the $40-$50 price range. NOW there are postings to the effect "You don't need no farging digital level". At the last minute Gary posts that Sears has them on sale for $25. The local Sears catalog store is across the street from where we shop for groceries so I stopped in. Yup, they had one. I just saved $15 thanks to the list and can now install the D-100 confident that I'm meeting Dynon specifications. If I'm real careful opening the package, I can level my D-100 and then give it away as a Christmas present next year! If we didn't collectively embrace new technology, we'd be posting by smoke signal and still trying to get a steam powered aircraft in the air. Has anyone ever succeeded using a steam powerplant? do not archive Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:10:30 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Torque tube From: "vayuwings" Thanks guys for your responses.... I'll call on Monday to see if I can get hold of Roger or Caleb, etc. I've got one or two day responses from ZAC on my emails always before - maybe they're just busy at the moment or I didn't explain the problem correctly, ..... email is just so convenient and I use it constantly, hope I can remember how to use, what's it again, a Telephone?..... Have really enjoyed the last 3 weeks or so pouring over the 90+ pages of this list for any hints, clues, etc. to make my building better - Larry you have an excellent web page, nice work and plane - I'm still agonizing over engine choices keeping under 10K, but other than that I'm going to use many suggestions like the slider plate for steering rods, the homemade tensiometer, etc. that I found on this list. Thanks again, Dave N371EK reserved 601XL kit Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219231#219231 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:18:54 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Digital Level Final From: "leinad" Here's how I measure an angle with a bubble level. I shim the level on one end until it's level. I divide the thickness of the shim by the length of the level and take the arc sine. On your home computer that's inverse sine. Example: 1/32 shim divided by 48" = 6.67e-4. Take the inverse sine = .038 degrees Or I can go the other way. I can say what shim = 1 degree. So I take the sine of 1 x length of the level. Example: (lets use a short level this time) Sine of 1 = .01745 x 4" long level = .069. So if I can level my 4" long bubble level with less than a .069 shim I'm under 1 degree out of level. Anyway I'm using the Dynon too, and I AM confident that the compass is within 1/10th of a degree of level using the above method. In a way you're right though because my calculator IS digital and I'm using it when I measure angles. Dan naumuk(at)alltel.net wrote: > Dan- > I have 6 bubble levels, from a line level to 4'. I agree a bubble level > is just as accurate as a digital, but how do you accurately READ a 1 degree > deviation? I can't, and despite how confident you sound, I bet you can't > either. > > Bill > do not archive > --- -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219233#219233 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:56 AM PST US From: "George Swinford" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cost savings Yes, Bill, it's been done. Besler put a steam engine in a Travelaire biplane and made a short flight (or flights), I think just to prove it could be done. Besler's interest was in the engine, rather than in steam-powered flight as such. George Swinford do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Naumuk To: zenith list Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 9:57 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Cost savings All- Regardless of your viewpoint on the digital level, the list came through again. Many moons ago I posted the question of how to level to plus/minus 1 degree. The unanimous list response was with a digital level. No dissention at that time from anyone else. OK, so I'm in the market for a digital level. I thought I had it made with an improperly described HF tool and was back to square one and ask where to find the best deal. Responses came back in the $40-$50 price range. NOW there are postings to the effect "You don't need no farging digital level". At the last minute Gary posts that Sears has them on sale for $25. The local Sears catalog store is across the street from where we shop for groceries so I stopped in. Yup, they had one. I just saved $15 thanks to the list and can now install the D-100 confident that I'm meeting Dynon specifications. If I'm real careful opening the package, I can level my D-100 and then give it away as a Christmas present next year! If we didn't collectively embrace new technology, we'd be posting by smoke signal and still trying to get a steam powered aircraft in the air. Has anyone ever succeeded using a steam powerplant? do not archive Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:15 AM PST US From: "Roger & Lina Hill" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Torque tube Dave; For cheap (ish) engines, think about used or rebuilt. Be sure to follow ebay auctions and check barnstormers regularly, sometime guys are parting out there planes too and you can get a good deal. I have seen some real steals on Subaru with FWF and Contental C-85 and O-200s (with all accessories) over the last year, I know they are out there and winter is the best time to buy, or to make an offer. Hey, if they don't hang up, you offered too much money to start with !!!!! Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of vayuwings Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:10 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Torque tube Thanks guys for your responses.... I'll call on Monday to see if I can get hold of Roger or Caleb, etc. I've got one or two day responses from ZAC on my emails always before - maybe they're just busy at the moment or I didn't explain the problem correctly, ..... email is just so convenient and I use it constantly, hope I can remember how to use, what's it again, a Telephone?..... Have really enjoyed the last 3 weeks or so pouring over the 90+ pages of this list for any hints, clues, etc. to make my building better - Larry you have an excellent web page, nice work and plane - I'm still agonizing over engine choices keeping under 10K, but other than that I'm going to use many suggestions like the slider plate for steering rods, the homemade tensiometer, etc. that I found on this list. Thanks again, Dave N371EK reserved 601XL kit Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219231#219231 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:29:03 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Do you know what a throttle bellcrank IS? Clive- Yes, it's for a Rotax. Since there's only a single carb, the distance between the uprights can be less, and the MA3 favors the opposite side of the centerline. I never thought about the height, but that can be adjusted at the last minute. It would seem the throttle proper would need a minimum of cable for my set up, if any at all. Also, a vernier would only be practical on the pilot's side. People might think I'm spending an inordinate amount of time getting the best information I can for the cockpit layout, but I just, and I mean JUST was able to clear my battery cable when reattaching the header tank straps for fit. I also had my battery cable neatly tucked up under the left upper longeron using cable ties and had to remove one. I didn't have the access to get my panel on and off any more. I'm sure all the flying listers will agree- a minor lapse in panel layout will result in big trouble down the line. Thanks. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Clive Richards To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:37 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Do you know what a throttle bellcrank IS? Bill I believe the drawing you show is the arrangement for a Rotax with dual bing carbs & dual throttle. If you wish to use this arrangement then far as I can see you can weld the bell crank uprights at any position you wish on the drive shaft provided it clears equipment on your particular engine arrangement the height of the bell crank uprights may require adjusting to give the correct travel to what ever you drive the carb with. We used a single throttle & Idle cut-off sold by aircraft spruce similar to those fitted to C152s to directly operate the carb. they are a belden type cable with solid cores the throttle knob A800 has a friction lock & idle cut off A790 has a lock release knob & vernier control In the Rotax arangement the carbs are opened by a spring pulling on the belden cables from the bell crank, there is no idle cutoff but a choke is fitted. Clive G CBDG 601HD 0-200 275Hrs do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Naumuk To: zenith list Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 11:56 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Do you know what a throttle bellcrank IS? All- 99.99% of the listers who responded to my posts have no idea what I've been talking about. Attached is the section from my HDS manual- THE BIG ROD ASSEMBLY THAT GOES OVER THE HORIZONTAL FIREWALL BRACE! WHERE DO YOU POSITION THE UPRIGHTS TO ACCOMMODATE AN MA3-SPA?? The cable for an MA3 comes from the right side of the centerline looking at the firewall from the front. That's why I'm thinking I can just swap this drawing end for end. Sorry for the use of caps- I'm not mad, just frustrated. Thanks. do not archive Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:04 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cost savings George- I figured it had, but I bet there wasn't much useful load! Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: George Swinford To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 1:22 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cost savings Yes, Bill, it's been done. Besler put a steam engine in a Travelaire biplane and made a short flight (or flights), I think just to prove it could be done. Besler's interest was in the engine, rather than in steam-powered flight as such. George Swinford do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Naumuk To: zenith list Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 9:57 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Cost savings All- Regardless of your viewpoint on the digital level, the list came through again. Many moons ago I posted the question of how to level to plus/minus 1 degree. The unanimous list response was with a digital level. No dissention at that time from anyone else. OK, so I'm in the market for a digital level. I thought I had it made with an improperly described HF tool and was back to square one and ask where to find the best deal. Responses came back in the $40-$50 price range. NOW there are postings to the effect "You don't need no farging digital level". At the last minute Gary posts that Sears has them on sale for $25. The local Sears catalog store is across the street from where we shop for groceries so I stopped in. Yup, they had one. I just saved $15 thanks to the list and can now install the D-100 confident that I'm meeting Dynon specifications. If I'm real careful opening the package, I can level my D-100 and then give it away as a Christmas present next year! If we didn't collectively embrace new technology, we'd be posting by smoke signal and still trying to get a steam powered aircraft in the air. Has anyone ever succeeded using a steam powerplant? do not archive Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:33 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Digital Level Final Bottom line is, you trigged it out, rather than had a display. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "leinad" Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 1:17 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Digital Level Final > > Here's how I measure an angle with a bubble level. I shim the level on > one end until it's level. I divide the thickness of the shim by the > length of the level and take the arc sine. On your home computer that's > inverse sine. Example: 1/32 shim divided by 48" = 6.67e-4. Take the > inverse sine = .038 degrees > Or I can go the other way. I can say what shim = 1 degree. So I take the > sine of 1 x length of the level. > Example: (lets use a short level this time) > Sine of 1 = .01745 x 4" long level = .069. > So if I can level my 4" long bubble level with less than a .069 shim I'm > under 1 degree out of level. > Anyway I'm using the Dynon too, and I AM confident that the compass is > within 1/10th of a degree of level using the above method. > In a way you're right though because my calculator IS digital and I'm > using it when I measure angles. > Dan > > > naumuk(at)alltel.net wrote: >> Dan- >> I have 6 bubble levels, from a line level to 4'. I agree a bubble >> level >> is just as accurate as a digital, but how do you accurately READ a 1 >> degree >> deviation? I can't, and despite how confident you sound, I bet you can't >> either. >> >> Bill >> do not archive >> --- > > > -------- > Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219233#219233 > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:30 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: A5 rivets, Z angles for sale From: "azkells" Andy, I have recently started to view the Matronics website and see that you are a 601XL TD/ Corvair builder in Mesa, Az. I am building the same animal. My tail feathers are done and I am well into the wings (kit built). Engine is disassembled,cleaned, and will be put together this summer. Would enjoy seeing your project and trading ideas. Dan-PHX,AZ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219243#219243 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:43 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Digital Level Final From: jaybannist@cs.com I have used a 24" aluminum spirit level for years.? There is nothing difficult or highly technical about using it.? You don't need ANYTHING electronic or digital.? You just shim whatever you are trying to level 'til the bubble is centered and swap ends of the level to check for accuracy.? If I were building an astronomical telescope or somesuch, I might use different measuring devices, but not for building a 130mph airplane. If the 24" level is too long for the piece you are trying to level, a small torpedo spirit level will do just fine. For setting angles, there are devices on the market (photo) that have a hanging weight physically tied to a dial indicator that shows the angle.? Gravity is not electronic nor digital and is very reliable.? Just make sure and verify the accuracy of the pointer before using it. Jay in Dallas -----Original Message----- From: leinad Sent: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 12:17 pm Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Digital Level Final Here's how I measure an angle with a bubble level. I shim the level on one end until it's level. I divide the thickness of the shim by the length of the level and take the arc sine. On your home computer that's inverse sine. Example: 1/32 shim divided by 48" = 6.67e-4. Take the inverse sine = .038 degrees Or I can go the other way. I can say what shim = 1 degree. So I take the sine of 1 x length of the level. Example: (lets use a short level this time) Sine of 1 = .01745 x 4" long level = .069. So if I can level my 4" long bubble level with less than a .069 shim I'm under 1 degree out of level. Anyway I'm using the Dynon too, and I AM confident that the compass is within 1/10th of a degree of level using the above method. In a way you're right though because my calculator IS digital and I'm using it when I measure angles. Dan naumuk(at)alltel.net wrote: > Dan- > I have 6 bubble levels, from a line level to 4'. I agree a bubble level > is just as accurate as a digital, but how do you accurately READ a 1 degree > deviation? I can't, and despite how confident you sound, I bet you can't > either. > > Bill > do not archive > --- -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219233#219233 ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:01:33 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Radio tray All- Someone recently sent me a picture of their step sided radio tray. Sad to say, I lost it. Please resend. Thanks. Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:19 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Torque tube From: "vayuwings" Thanks, Roger, I'll keep checking your suggestions...... really don't want to build an engine myself (assuming I even could) so would love to find a screamin' deal - well in aviation, I'll settle for a good deal.... Dave Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219267#219267 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:01 PM PST US From: "Roger & Lina Hill" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Torque tube Check barnstormers under piston engines, I saw a couple goodies just today. Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of vayuwings Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 7:23 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Torque tube Thanks, Roger, I'll keep checking your suggestions...... really don't want to build an engine myself (assuming I even could) so would love to find a screamin' deal - well in aviation, I'll settle for a good deal.... Dave Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219267#219267 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:32 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cost savings From: "leinad" OK, so I'm the one Ludite in the crowd, funny for a computer programmer, that works for a hi-tech electronics company :) Just a few thoughts in this vain. Most of us are trying to realize a piece of 1930's technology for our selves, ie a piston driven aluminum airplane. For the most post, we'd be fine using the same tools that were being used back then. I guess all I was saying is that a fancy digital or laser guided tool is not always required, or even the best choice. I guess I spoke up because it was almost sounding like the point being made was that a digital level is required for the task of leveling the compass. I'd like those that don't have one to know that it's not. Can't wait to see all the scram jet zodiacs that you cutting edge guys are making! :o) Dan Dempsey 601xl/Corvair plans builder -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219277#219277 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:20:25 PM PST US From: "Carlos Sa" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cost savings forgive me for sticking my nose into this conversation, but what I saw was a good excuse to get a new toy. I heard Santa went to Sears the other day... Is it Xmas yet? Happy build to all and to all a good flight ! Carlos CH601-HD, plans tail feathers, one wing done, second wing before Xmas. do not archive 2008/12/13 leinad > > OK, so I'm the one Ludite in the crowd, funny for a computer programmer, > that works for a hi-tech electronics company :) > Just a few thoughts in this vain. Most of us are trying to realize a piece > of 1930's technology for our selves, ie a piston driven aluminum airplane. > For the most post, we'd be fine using the same tools that were being used > back then. I guess all I was saying is that a fancy digital or laser guided > tool is not always required, or even the best choice. I guess I spoke up > because it was almost sounding like the point being made was that a digital > level is required for the task of leveling the compass. I'd like those that > don't have one to know that it's not. > Can't wait to see all the scram jet zodiacs that you cutting edge guys are > making! :o) > Dan Dempsey > 601xl/Corvair plans builder > > -------- > Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.