Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:21 AM - Re: Engine Cooling (Juan Vega)
2. 10:39 AM - Re: Engine Cooling (DaveG601XL)
3. 10:47 AM - Re: Engine Cooling (Brady)
4. 10:56 AM - Re: Re: Engine Cooling (jaybannist@cs.com)
5. 12:42 PM - Re: Engine Cooling (David Brown)
6. 01:21 PM - Re: Engine Cooling (THOMAS SMALL)
7. 02:13 PM - Re: Re: Engine Cooling (Pete Krotje)
8. 02:50 PM - Re: Engine Cooling (David Brown)
9. 03:44 PM - Re: Re: Engine Cooling (Roger & Lina Hill)
10. 06:44 PM - Laminating Panel (Bill Naumuk)
11. 07:25 PM - Re: Laminating Panel (steve)
12. 10:09 PM - Re: Re: Engine Cooling (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Cooling |
sounds likre the baffles over the back cylinders are not pushing enough air through
into the cilinder vents. the deflection peice should go from the top of
the duct to block off all air from flowing over the top of the cilinder but down
through the cooling vents. use some metal and fit to cut so there is no room
hardly for air to gow over but only through the cilinder cooling vents.
Or your temperature sensor is off.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Randy <rpf@wi.rr.com>
>Sent: Dec 18, 2008 4:19 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine Cooling
>
>
>Bobby,
>
>Did you epoxy a little deflector above the rear cylinders (actually above
>the rear and middle cylinders) like Jabiru USA advises? I have the same
>setup as you and all my cylinders run under 300 degrees. Even when I flew
>out west to visit my brother with temperatures approaching 100 degrees.
>
>Randy
>601xl, Jab 3300, 235hours
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <BobbyPaulk@comcast.net>
>To: "Zenith-List Digest Server" <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 8:44 AM
>Subject: Zenith-List: Engine Cooling
>
>
>>
>> List,
>> i have the 601 XL with 3300 Jabiru & original fiberglass ram air ducts. i
>> have cut and modified the ram air ducts, added little dams and even
>> increased the size on one side to compare with the other. my back two
>> cylinders are still running 335 - 345 at cruise power settings. at max
>> power 5 & 6 hit 356 at a 600' climb from near sea level. the other four
>> cyl. are 300 or under. my question is - has anyone used the old style Lyc.
>> or Cont. baffeling that has worked for a hundred years and got better
>> CHT's on Cyl. 5 & 6.
>> i am thinking of trying the Sonex type of baffles. anybody got a clue.
>>
>> bobby
>> 70 hrs and still fixin stuff
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Cooling |
Bobby,
I am in the same boat as you. I have played with my baffles some, but still get
warm temperatures in the back cylinders. Within limits, sure, but it would
be better to have a more even distribution. #1-#4 are in the 280's to 300's F
and the back ones see 350's F.
If you find the holy grail, let me know. I will play with this some more next
spring and summer.
Good luck,
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL/Jabiru 3300
First flight 7/24/08
Phase I flight test complete 10/16/08
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220169#220169
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Cooling |
Bobby,
Be sure not to over look the exit.
All the intake in the world won't do you any good if it has nowhere to go.
Try to "suck" the cooling through.
I have seen studies that say the intake is far less important than the exhaust
side of the cooling system.
Also be sure you oil cooler is getting fresh air.
the oil cooler is at least as important because it is an integral part of the whole
cooling picture.
Just food for thought.
Good luck.
--------
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220171#220171
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Cooling |
I can't remember where I read it, but the prevailing thought was that the cooling
air outlet area needs to be 2 or 3 times the inlet area.
Jay in Dallas
-----Original Message-----
From: Brady <brady@magnificentmachine.com>
Sent: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:46 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Engine Cooling
Bobby,
Be sure not to over look the exit.
All the intake in the world won't do you any good if it has nowhere to go.
Try to "suck" the cooling through.
I have seen studies that say the intake is far less important than the exhaust
side of the cooling system.
Also be sure you oil cooler is getting fresh air.
the oil cooler is at least as important because it is an integral part of the
whole cooling picture.
Just food for thought.
Good luck.
--------
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
Message 5
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I had the same problem and also tinkered with the baffles. However, Jabiru on
their web site shows how to extend the bottom of the cowl depending on the extent
of your problem. I riveted a .025 aluminum strip, one inch extension on lip
of the cowl. Problem solved.
David N601EX
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Cooling |
Bobby,
Aside from what's has been said about the baffles between the cylinders
AND the deflectors in the RamDucts just ahead of cylinders 5 and 6; keep
in mind that the lower the pressure in the bottom portion of the cowl
the greater the airflow down through the heads. To do this make sure
that the front of the air intakes to the ducts through the cowling have
NO (or as little as possible) air leaking under cylinders 1 and 2 and
thus into the bottom of the cowl (pics attached). Also, the air coming
into the oil cooler through its duct/intake should ONLY go through the
oil cooler. Any air leaking around the the edges of the intake greatly,
greatly defeats your low pressure area in the lower cowl. The
difference in pressure between the top and bottom cowling segments is as
important as total exit area at the rear of the bottom cowl lip.
tailwinds jeff HDS/3300 (no CHTs over 285F)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Cooling |
Attached is the procedure for installing cooling ducts from the Jabiru
manual available on the Jabiru Australian web site. We do block off the air
from going in the bottom cowl but use a vertical air dam instead of the
horizontal pieces that Jeff used.
Jabiru makes the dam from fiberglass but there is no reason that scrap
aluminum sheet if Zenith builders don't want to mess with the fiberglass.
Pete
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of THOMAS SMALL
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 4:43 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Engine Cooling
Bobby,
Aside from what's has been said about the baffles between the cylinders AND
the deflectors in the RamDucts just ahead of cylinders 5 and 6; keep in mind
that the lower the pressure in the bottom portion of the cowl the greater
the airflow down through the heads. To do this make sure that the front of
the air intakes to the ducts through the cowling have NO (or as little as
possible) air leaking under cylinders 1 and 2 and thus into the bottom of
the cowl (pics attached). Also, the air coming into the oil cooler through
its duct/intake should ONLY go through the oil cooler. Any air leaking
around the the edges of the intake greatly, greatly defeats your low
pressure area in the lower cowl. The difference in pressure between the top
and bottom cowling segments is as important as total exit area at the rear
of the bottom cowl lip.
tailwinds jeff HDS/3300 (no CHTs over 285F)
Message 8
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Here is the one I was referring to.
Jabiru Service Bulletin JSB 016
http://www.jabiru.net.au/Service%20Bulletins/Engine%20files/Engine%20Coo
ling%20JSB016-1.pdf
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Cooling |
Don't forget, the air picks up heat and expands after entering the cooling
intake, hence the exhaust hole in the cowling must be larger than the
cooling intake hole.
Roger
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
jaybannist@cs.com
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Engine Cooling
I can't remember where I read it, but the prevailing thought was that the
cooling air outlet area needs to be 2 or 3 times the inlet area.
Jay in Dallas
-----Original Message-----
From: Brady <brady@magnificentmachine.com>
Sent: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:46 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Engine Cooling
Bobby,
Be sure not to over look the exit.
All the intake in the world won't do you any good if it has nowhere to go.
Try to "suck" the cooling through.
I have seen studies that say the intake is far less important than the
exhaust
side of the cooling system.
Also be sure you oil cooler is getting fresh air.
the oil cooler is at least as important because it is an integral part of
the
whole cooling picture.
Just food for thought.
Good luck.
--------
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com
_____
size=2 width="100%" align=center>
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
Message 10
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| Subject: | Laminating Panel |
All-
This turned out much better than I expected, but I'm sure the
procedure can be improved on by the next guy.
1. Materials were McMaster-Carr 8747K134 for the laminate. This
stuff is listed as "Gray", but as you can see it's
only a step up from black. If I were doing it again I'd go for their
"Off White". Adhesive was ACS 08-01026, which is
flat-out amazing stuff.
2. Before laminating the panel I experimented using extra laminate
glued to .020 scrap stock. In my "Cuts"
attachment, the top sample used an HF fly cutter, the bottom a hole saw.
Both were machined from the top and cut
clean with no tearing or fractures.
3. The stock was so shiny, I originally thought it was covered with
a protective film ala the sheet you get from Wicks.
WRONG! I have unavoidable scuffs in the material, and it's too shiny for
my liking. Consequently, I'm going to rub the
panel down with Dupont Polishing Compound just before final instrument
installation.
4. I originally thought I would have to screw the panel/laminate
sandwich down to my bench in order to get a good,
flat bond but it's not necessary with the ACS adhesive. I sprayed both
the panel and the laminate, counted to 60 and
put them together. You have minimal but acceptable working time. After
lining up and putting the pieces together
I rolled them out with an edging flooring roller. That's it!
The laminate adds enough strength to enable you to fearlessly drill
your instrument holes and won't scratch like
paint. Added weight is negligible.
Good building and Merry Christmas!
Bill Naumuk
Townville, Pa.
HDS 601MG/Corvair 95%
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Laminating Panel |
I plan on using laminate also, "someday".
I just purchased a new hermes engraver to do the job of engraving and
also produce data plates/placards to sell on ebay....
sw
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Naumuk
To: zenith list
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 7:43 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Laminating Panel
All-
This turned out much better than I expected, but I'm sure the
procedure can be improved on by the next guy.
1. Materials were McMaster-Carr 8747K134 for the laminate. This
stuff is listed as "Gray", but as you can see it's
only a step up from black. If I were doing it again I'd go for their
"Off White". Adhesive was ACS 08-01026, which is
flat-out amazing stuff.
2. Before laminating the panel I experimented using extra laminate
glued to .020 scrap stock. In my "Cuts"
attachment, the top sample used an HF fly cutter, the bottom a hole
saw. Both were machined from the top and cut
clean with no tearing or fractures.
3. The stock was so shiny, I originally thought it was covered
with a protective film ala the sheet you get from Wicks.
WRONG! I have unavoidable scuffs in the material, and it's too shiny
for my liking. Consequently, I'm going to rub the
panel down with Dupont Polishing Compound just before final instrument
installation.
4. I originally thought I would have to screw the panel/laminate
sandwich down to my bench in order to get a good,
flat bond but it's not necessary with the ACS adhesive. I sprayed both
the panel and the laminate, counted to 60 and
put them together. You have minimal but acceptable working time.
After lining up and putting the pieces together
I rolled them out with an edging flooring roller. That's it!
The laminate adds enough strength to enable you to fearlessly
drill your instrument holes and won't scratch like
paint. Added weight is negligible.
Good building and Merry Christmas!
Bill Naumuk
Townville, Pa.
HDS 601MG/Corvair 95%
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Cooling |
Brady
With all due respect, how many aircraft have you built? You are starting to
be the WW of the Zenith list. I think you are a smart guy and like what you
are trying to do but wouldn't it be better to have built at least 1 airplane
before you hand out answers to others problems? Having worked on a Jab that
overheats it is a pain in the ass engine when it comes to cooling. Jab will tell
you they don't have a problem but I have seen too many posts about
overheating to believe that.
BTW if the intake is small where is it going to "Suck" the air from? The Jab
uses small deflectors inside the baffles and if they are too big or small
the rear cylinder will overheat.
Jeff
Bobby,
Be sure not to over look the exit.
All the intake in the world won't do you any good if it has nowhere to go.
Try to "suck" the cooling through.
I have seen studies that say the intake is far less important than the
exhaust side of the cooling system.
Also be sure you oil cooler is getting fresh air.
the oil cooler is at least as important because it is an integral part of
the whole cooling picture.
Just food for thought.
Good luck.
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