---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/19/08: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:21 AM - Re: Engine Cooling (Juan Vega) 2. 10:39 AM - Re: Engine Cooling (DaveG601XL) 3. 10:47 AM - Re: Engine Cooling (Brady) 4. 10:56 AM - Re: Re: Engine Cooling (jaybannist@cs.com) 5. 12:42 PM - Re: Engine Cooling (David Brown) 6. 01:21 PM - Re: Engine Cooling (THOMAS SMALL) 7. 02:13 PM - Re: Re: Engine Cooling (Pete Krotje) 8. 02:50 PM - Re: Engine Cooling (David Brown) 9. 03:44 PM - Re: Re: Engine Cooling (Roger & Lina Hill) 10. 06:44 PM - Laminating Panel (Bill Naumuk) 11. 07:25 PM - Re: Laminating Panel (steve) 12. 10:09 PM - Re: Re: Engine Cooling (Afterfxllc@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:28 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine Cooling sounds likre the baffles over the back cylinders are not pushing enough air through into the cilinder vents. the deflection peice should go from the top of the duct to block off all air from flowing over the top of the cilinder but down through the cooling vents. use some metal and fit to cut so there is no room hardly for air to gow over but only through the cilinder cooling vents. Or your temperature sensor is off. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Randy >Sent: Dec 18, 2008 4:19 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine Cooling > > >Bobby, > >Did you epoxy a little deflector above the rear cylinders (actually above >the rear and middle cylinders) like Jabiru USA advises? I have the same >setup as you and all my cylinders run under 300 degrees. Even when I flew >out west to visit my brother with temperatures approaching 100 degrees. > >Randy >601xl, Jab 3300, 235hours >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: "Zenith-List Digest Server" >Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 8:44 AM >Subject: Zenith-List: Engine Cooling > > >> >> List, >> i have the 601 XL with 3300 Jabiru & original fiberglass ram air ducts. i >> have cut and modified the ram air ducts, added little dams and even >> increased the size on one side to compare with the other. my back two >> cylinders are still running 335 - 345 at cruise power settings. at max >> power 5 & 6 hit 356 at a 600' climb from near sea level. the other four >> cyl. are 300 or under. my question is - has anyone used the old style Lyc. >> or Cont. baffeling that has worked for a hundred years and got better >> CHT's on Cyl. 5 & 6. >> i am thinking of trying the Sonex type of baffles. anybody got a clue. >> >> bobby >> 70 hrs and still fixin stuff >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:39:23 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Engine Cooling From: "DaveG601XL" Bobby, I am in the same boat as you. I have played with my baffles some, but still get warm temperatures in the back cylinders. Within limits, sure, but it would be better to have a more even distribution. #1-#4 are in the 280's to 300's F and the back ones see 350's F. If you find the holy grail, let me know. I will play with this some more next spring and summer. Good luck, -------- David Gallagher 601 XL/Jabiru 3300 First flight 7/24/08 Phase I flight test complete 10/16/08 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220169#220169 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:47:56 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Engine Cooling From: "Brady" Bobby, Be sure not to over look the exit. All the intake in the world won't do you any good if it has nowhere to go. Try to "suck" the cooling through. I have seen studies that say the intake is far less important than the exhaust side of the cooling system. Also be sure you oil cooler is getting fresh air. the oil cooler is at least as important because it is an integral part of the whole cooling picture. Just food for thought. Good luck. -------- Brady McCormick Poulsbo, WA www.magnificentmachine.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220171#220171 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:56:03 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Engine Cooling From: jaybannist@cs.com I can't remember where I read it, but the prevailing thought was that the cooling air outlet area needs to be 2 or 3 times the inlet area. Jay in Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Brady Sent: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:46 pm Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Engine Cooling Bobby, Be sure not to over look the exit. All the intake in the world won't do you any good if it has nowhere to go. Try to "suck" the cooling through. I have seen studies that say the intake is far less important than the exhaust side of the cooling system. Also be sure you oil cooler is getting fresh air. the oil cooler is at least as important because it is an integral part of the whole cooling picture. Just food for thought. Good luck. -------- Brady McCormick Poulsbo, WA www.magnificentmachine.com ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:42:54 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Engine Cooling From: "David Brown" I had the same problem and also tinkered with the baffles. However, Jabiru on their web site shows how to extend the bottom of the cowl depending on the extent of your problem. I riveted a .025 aluminum strip, one inch extension on lip of the cowl. Problem solved. David N601EX ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:21:15 PM PST US From: "THOMAS SMALL" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Engine Cooling Bobby, Aside from what's has been said about the baffles between the cylinders AND the deflectors in the RamDucts just ahead of cylinders 5 and 6; keep in mind that the lower the pressure in the bottom portion of the cowl the greater the airflow down through the heads. To do this make sure that the front of the air intakes to the ducts through the cowling have NO (or as little as possible) air leaking under cylinders 1 and 2 and thus into the bottom of the cowl (pics attached). Also, the air coming into the oil cooler through its duct/intake should ONLY go through the oil cooler. Any air leaking around the the edges of the intake greatly, greatly defeats your low pressure area in the lower cowl. The difference in pressure between the top and bottom cowling segments is as important as total exit area at the rear of the bottom cowl lip. tailwinds jeff HDS/3300 (no CHTs over 285F) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:13:04 PM PST US From: "Pete Krotje" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Engine Cooling Attached is the procedure for installing cooling ducts from the Jabiru manual available on the Jabiru Australian web site. We do block off the air from going in the bottom cowl but use a vertical air dam instead of the horizontal pieces that Jeff used. Jabiru makes the dam from fiberglass but there is no reason that scrap aluminum sheet if Zenith builders don't want to mess with the fiberglass. Pete From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of THOMAS SMALL Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 4:43 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Engine Cooling Bobby, Aside from what's has been said about the baffles between the cylinders AND the deflectors in the RamDucts just ahead of cylinders 5 and 6; keep in mind that the lower the pressure in the bottom portion of the cowl the greater the airflow down through the heads. To do this make sure that the front of the air intakes to the ducts through the cowling have NO (or as little as possible) air leaking under cylinders 1 and 2 and thus into the bottom of the cowl (pics attached). Also, the air coming into the oil cooler through its duct/intake should ONLY go through the oil cooler. Any air leaking around the the edges of the intake greatly, greatly defeats your low pressure area in the lower cowl. The difference in pressure between the top and bottom cowling segments is as important as total exit area at the rear of the bottom cowl lip. tailwinds jeff HDS/3300 (no CHTs over 285F) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:50:30 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Engine Cooling From: "David Brown" Here is the one I was referring to. Jabiru Service Bulletin JSB 016 http://www.jabiru.net.au/Service%20Bulletins/Engine%20files/Engine%20Coo ling%20JSB016-1.pdf ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:44:19 PM PST US From: "Roger & Lina Hill" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Engine Cooling Don't forget, the air picks up heat and expands after entering the cooling intake, hence the exhaust hole in the cowling must be larger than the cooling intake hole. Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jaybannist@cs.com Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 12:55 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Engine Cooling I can't remember where I read it, but the prevailing thought was that the cooling air outlet area needs to be 2 or 3 times the inlet area. Jay in Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Brady Sent: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:46 pm Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Engine Cooling Bobby, Be sure not to over look the exit. All the intake in the world won't do you any good if it has nowhere to go. Try to "suck" the cooling through. I have seen studies that say the intake is far less important than the exhaust side of the cooling system. Also be sure you oil cooler is getting fresh air. the oil cooler is at least as important because it is an integral part of the whole cooling picture. Just food for thought. Good luck. -------- Brady McCormick Poulsbo, WA www.magnificentmachine.com _____ size=2 width="100%" align=center> Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:39 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Laminating Panel All- This turned out much better than I expected, but I'm sure the procedure can be improved on by the next guy. 1. Materials were McMaster-Carr 8747K134 for the laminate. This stuff is listed as "Gray", but as you can see it's only a step up from black. If I were doing it again I'd go for their "Off White". Adhesive was ACS 08-01026, which is flat-out amazing stuff. 2. Before laminating the panel I experimented using extra laminate glued to .020 scrap stock. In my "Cuts" attachment, the top sample used an HF fly cutter, the bottom a hole saw. Both were machined from the top and cut clean with no tearing or fractures. 3. The stock was so shiny, I originally thought it was covered with a protective film ala the sheet you get from Wicks. WRONG! I have unavoidable scuffs in the material, and it's too shiny for my liking. Consequently, I'm going to rub the panel down with Dupont Polishing Compound just before final instrument installation. 4. I originally thought I would have to screw the panel/laminate sandwich down to my bench in order to get a good, flat bond but it's not necessary with the ACS adhesive. I sprayed both the panel and the laminate, counted to 60 and put them together. You have minimal but acceptable working time. After lining up and putting the pieces together I rolled them out with an edging flooring roller. That's it! The laminate adds enough strength to enable you to fearlessly drill your instrument holes and won't scratch like paint. Added weight is negligible. Good building and Merry Christmas! Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:26 PM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Laminating Panel I plan on using laminate also, "someday". I just purchased a new hermes engraver to do the job of engraving and also produce data plates/placards to sell on ebay.... sw ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Naumuk To: zenith list Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 7:43 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Laminating Panel All- This turned out much better than I expected, but I'm sure the procedure can be improved on by the next guy. 1. Materials were McMaster-Carr 8747K134 for the laminate. This stuff is listed as "Gray", but as you can see it's only a step up from black. If I were doing it again I'd go for their "Off White". Adhesive was ACS 08-01026, which is flat-out amazing stuff. 2. Before laminating the panel I experimented using extra laminate glued to .020 scrap stock. In my "Cuts" attachment, the top sample used an HF fly cutter, the bottom a hole saw. Both were machined from the top and cut clean with no tearing or fractures. 3. The stock was so shiny, I originally thought it was covered with a protective film ala the sheet you get from Wicks. WRONG! I have unavoidable scuffs in the material, and it's too shiny for my liking. Consequently, I'm going to rub the panel down with Dupont Polishing Compound just before final instrument installation. 4. I originally thought I would have to screw the panel/laminate sandwich down to my bench in order to get a good, flat bond but it's not necessary with the ACS adhesive. I sprayed both the panel and the laminate, counted to 60 and put them together. You have minimal but acceptable working time. After lining up and putting the pieces together I rolled them out with an edging flooring roller. That's it! The laminate adds enough strength to enable you to fearlessly drill your instrument holes and won't scratch like paint. Added weight is negligible. Good building and Merry Christmas! Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:03 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Engine Cooling Brady With all due respect, how many aircraft have you built? You are starting to be the WW of the Zenith list. I think you are a smart guy and like what you are trying to do but wouldn't it be better to have built at least 1 airplane before you hand out answers to others problems? Having worked on a Jab that overheats it is a pain in the ass engine when it comes to cooling. Jab will tell you they don't have a problem but I have seen too many posts about overheating to believe that. BTW if the intake is small where is it going to "Suck" the air from? The Jab uses small deflectors inside the baffles and if they are too big or small the rear cylinder will overheat. Jeff Bobby, Be sure not to over look the exit. All the intake in the world won't do you any good if it has nowhere to go. Try to "suck" the cooling through. I have seen studies that say the intake is far less important than the exhaust side of the cooling system. Also be sure you oil cooler is getting fresh air. the oil cooler is at least as important because it is an integral part of the whole cooling picture. Just food for thought. Good luck. **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. 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