Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:02 AM - OT: EM Aviation RiteAngle III For Sale (Bryan Martin)
2. 09:08 AM - Zodiac CH601XL "Problems" (jaybannist@cs.com)
3. 09:52 AM - Re: Zodiac CH601XL "Problems" (steve)
4. 10:54 AM - Instrument bezels (Bill Naumuk)
5. 07:43 PM - Re: Zodiac CH601XL (Juan Vega)
6. 11:38 PM - Re: Web cam up of 601xl build (John Reinking)
Message 1
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| Subject: | OT: EM Aviation RiteAngle III For Sale |
I am selling an EM Aviation RiteAngle III angle of attack instrument
on eBay If anyone is interested. I had it mounted on my 601 for a
while but couldn't get it to work right. I think I had it mounted too
far aft and it wasn't seeing a change in airflow. I removed it because
I decided I didn't really need it in my plane. After removing it, I
also discovered I had the flap sensor wired wrong. I have it working
properly now on the bench, so it should work if it's properly installed.
eBay Item number: 320326706743
--
Bryan Martin
do not archive.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Zodiac CH601XL "Problems" |
Here is my take on the Zodiac CH 601XL =9Cproblem=9D:
Chris Heintz designed quite a number of airplanes; for factory assembly, kit
construction and plans building.=C2- There are thousands of airplanes of
his designs flying, including CH601XLs registered in the USA as LSA, E-LSA,
EAB and an extremely confusing array of registration designations in other c
ountries. =C2-
There is a lot of discussion about whether the CZAW kits and airplanes are i
dentical to the ones from the USA.=C2- There are those that claim that the
y are identical...except blah, blah & blah.=C2- They simply can=99t
be identical if there are exceptions.=C2- I suspect (another personal opin
ion) that there are differences that observers either will not; or, more lik
ely, can=99t recognize.=C2- For instance, can a builder tell the dif
ference between 6061-T6 aluminum and 6061-Txx? Absolutely not.=C2- Can a b
uilder tell the difference between the Avex rivets that Zenith supplies and
substandard imitators?=C2- No.=C2- Yet these differences can be signific
ant and can certainly effect the structural integrity of the airframe.=C2
- The same applies to the different angle of incidence of the wing.=C2-
Is the angle of the wing spar center section changed or is the wing twisted
to change the angle? (The latter is the case)=C2-=C2- Analyzing the weig
ht differences and plain old common sense tells me that there are more diffe
rences yet.=C2- In short, all CH601XLs are NOT identical, and claiming so
is simply engaging in fantasy.
European bu
ilders have given the argument that Chris Heintz=99s name on all the d
rawings as evidence that Heintz is totally responsible for their airplanes.
However, they assert that the drawings are the same as those in the USA....e
xcept for the added drawings by CZAW.=C2- Drawings supplied by CZAW with C
hris Heintz name on all of them do NOT establish absolute responsibility for
the finished product.=C2- That would require certification that the kit m
aterials or the complete airplane strictly adheres to the requirements state
d in those drawings, either by CZAW or the kit builder.=C2- CZAW obviously
can=99t make that certification, and I don=99t know of any buil
der that has the technical expertise nor the materials documentation to make
that certification. Therefore, the owner / builder has the final responsibi
lity for their airplane.
As I recall, CZAW was started by an American in the Czech Republic as a prog
ram to assist builders to quickly assemble Zodiac kits.=C2- CZAW then morp
hed into a company that manufactured complete Zodiac airplanes and sold kits
.=C2- It is unclear where the materials CZAW used actually originated. The
Zenair - CZAW relationship ended for a reason.=C2- I don=99t know w
hat that reason was, but I strongly suspect (my opinion strictly) that it wa
s because the CZAW organization did not exercise adequate quality control, e
specially over the materials they used and or supplied to kit builders.
So why are CH601XLs crashing?=C2- Is there a design flaw? The design has b
een verified sever
al times over, through analysis and through testing.=C2- You can advance a
ll sorts of convoluted arguments against this but the design simply does not
have a flaw that causes a wing to fold.=C2- The XL design, as ALL aircraf
t designs, is based on clearly stated operating limitations.=C2- Operating
outside the design limitations of ANY aircraft subjects that aircraft to st
ructural failure; and many of them have failed and crashed. =C2-
So are there problems with the way pilots are operating? We all know the lim
itations, but some pilots forget about them, or fly into bad climate situati
ons, or have untenable equipment malfunctions, or simply choose to ignore th
e limitations, because others have =9Cgotten away with it=9D.
Are there problems with the materials used?=C2- I am personally confident
in the materials supplied by Zenith.=C2- I do not have the same confidence
in the materials supplied by CZAW.
Summation (Definitely my opinion): The Zodiac CH601XL =9Cproblem
=9D is not design.=C2- The =9CProblems=9D are:
1) The way some pilots choose to fly the airplane, either on purpose or acci
dentally,
2) Possible substandard materials and unsound design changes (from CZAW) and
,
3) Construction and maintenance errors on the part of builders/owners.
These are highly personal opinions and not cold hard facts.
A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all !!!
Jay Bannister (alias Jay in Dallas)
Zodiac CH 601XL N2630J =9CLil Bruiser=9D
BTW, I have crashed in a Zodiac CH
601XLi (not mine).=C2- It had nothing to do with the design and the wings
did not fall off.
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Zodiac CH601XL "Problems" |
All sounds reasonable to me..
As many of you know, I ve been wrestling with my Weight and Balance.
My rear CG is right at 450mm.
Yet I read from the UK ( its on the UK Zenith website) that the CG in
that country for the 601XL, is from 300 to 520mm.
Same configuration as I have, same kit, same engine.....
I ve forwarded the info to Zenith and they dont belive it. Said they
will get back to me...
One would think, Zenith knows..........
The reason I keep bringing this subject up is that I dont get it
either...
The 1600mm on the W&B is NOT in the "average" baggage area spot. My
"baggage is right smack at 1850mm....
If a pilot put the baggage at the rear of the compartment I m sure the
W&B will be waaaay out......
Any ideas??????
SW
----- Original Message -----
From: jaybannist@cs.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com ; zenith601-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 10:06 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Zodiac CH601XL "Problems"
Here is my take on the Zodiac CH 601XL =9Cproblem=9D:
Chris Heintz designed quite a number of airplanes; for factory
assembly, kit construction and plans building. There are thousands of
airplanes of his designs flying, including CH601XLs registered in the
USA as LSA, E-LSA, EAB and an extremely confusing array of registration
designations in other countries.
There is a lot of discussion about whether the CZAW kits and airplanes
are identical to the ones from the USA. There are those that claim that
they are identical...except blah, blah & blah. They simply
can=99t be identical if there are exceptions. I suspect (another
personal opinion) that there are differences that observers either will
not; or, more likely, can=99t recognize. For instance, can a
builder tell the difference between 6061-T6 aluminum and 6061-Txx?
Absolutely not. Can a builder tell the difference between the Avex
rivets that Zenith supplies and substandard imitators? No. Yet these
differences can be significant and can certainly effect the structural
integrity of the airframe. The same applies to the different angle of
incidence of the wing. Is the angle of the wing spar center section
changed or is the wing twisted to change the angle? (The latter is the
case) Analyzing the weight differences and plain old common sense
tells me that there are more differences yet. In short, all CH601XLs
are NOT identical, and cla iming so is simply engaging in fantasy.
European builders have given the argument that Chris Heintz=99s
name on all the drawings as evidence that Heintz is totally responsible
for their airplanes. However, they assert that the drawings are the same
as those in the USA....except for the added drawings by CZAW. Drawings
supplied by CZAW with Chris Heintz name on all of them do NOT establish
absolute responsibility for the finished product. That would require
certification that the kit materials or the complete airplane strictly
adheres to the requirements stated in those drawings, either by CZAW or
the kit builder. CZAW obviously can=99t make that certification,
and I don=99t know of any builder that has the technical expertise
nor the materials documentation to make that certification. Therefore,
the owner / builder has the final responsibility for their airplane.
As I recall, CZAW was started by an American in the Czech Republic as
a program to assist builders to quickly assemble Zodiac kits. CZAW then
morphed into a company that manufactured complete Zodiac airplanes and
sold kits. It is unclear where the materials CZAW used actually
originated. The Zenair - CZAW relationship ended for a reason. I
don=99t know what that reason was, but I strongly suspect (my
opinion strictly) that it was because the CZAW organization did not
exercise adequate quality control, especially over the materials they
used and or supplied to kit builders.
So why are CH601XLs cr ashing? Is there a design flaw? The design has
been verified several times over, through analysis and through testing.
You can advance all sorts of convoluted arguments against this but the
design simply does not have a flaw that causes a wing to fold. The XL
design, as ALL aircraft designs, is based on clearly stated operating
limitations. Operating outside the design limitations of ANY aircraft
subjects that aircraft to structural failure; and many of them have
failed and crashed.
So are there problems with the way pilots are operating? We all know
the limitations, but some pilots forget about them, or fly into bad
climate situations, or have untenable equipment malfunctions, or simply
choose to ignore the limitations, because others have =9Cgotten
away with it=9D.
Are there problems with the materials used? I am personally confident
in the materials supplied by Zenith. I do not have the same confidence
in the materials supplied by CZAW.
Summation (Definitely my opinion): The Zodiac CH601XL
=9Cproblem=9D is not design. The =9CProblems=9D
are:
1) The way some pilots choose to fly the airplane, either on purpose
or accidentally,
2) Possible substandard materials and unsound design changes (from
CZAW) and,
3) Construction and maintenance errors on the part of builders/owners.
These are highly personal opinions and not cold hard facts.
A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all !!!
J ay Bannister (alias Jay in Dallas)
Zodiac CH 601XL N2630J =9CLil Bruiser=9D
BTW, I have crashed in a Zodiac CH 601XLi (not mine). It had nothing
to do with the design and the wings did not fall off.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at
http://www.cs.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Instrument bezels |
All-
I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but I think I found an outlet for
off the shelf 3-1/8"bezels.
do not archive
Bill Naumuk
Townville, Pa.
HDS 601MG/Corvair 95%
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Zodiac CH601XL |
Bravo, the truth is finally said!
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: jaybannist@cs.com
>Sent: Dec 23, 2008 12:06 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com, zenith601-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Zodiac CH601XL "Problems"
>
>Here is my take on the Zodiac CH 601XL problem:
>
>Chris Heintz designed quite a number of airplanes; for factory assembly, kit construction
and plans building. There are thousands of airplanes of his designs
flying, including CH601XLs registered in the USA as LSA, E-LSA, EAB and an extremely
confusing array of registration designations in other countries.
>
>There is a lot of discussion about whether the CZAW kits and airplanes are identical
to the ones from the USA. There are those that claim that they are identical...except
blah, blah & blah. They simply cant be identical if there are exceptions.
I suspect (another personal opinion) that there are differences that
observers either will not; or, more likely, cant recognize. For instance, can
a builder tell the difference between 6061-T6 aluminum and 6061-Txx? Absolutely
not. Can a builder tell the difference between the Avex rivets that Zenith
supplies and substandard imitators? No. Yet these differences can be significant
and can certainly effect the structural integrity of the airframe. The same
applies to the different angle of incidence of the wing. Is the angle of the
wing spar center section changed or is the wing twisted to change the angle?
(The latter is the case) Analyzing the weight differences and plain old common
sense tells me that there are more differences yet. In short, all CH601XLs are
NOT identical, and claiming so is simply engaging in fantasy.
>
>European bu
>ilders have given the argument that Chris Heintzs name on all the drawings as
evidence that Heintz is totally responsible for their airplanes. However, they
assert that the drawings are the same as those in the USA....except for the added
drawings by CZAW. Drawings supplied by CZAW with Chris Heintz name on all
of them do NOT establish absolute responsibility for the finished product. That
would require certification that the kit materials or the complete airplane
strictly adheres to the requirements stated in those drawings, either by CZAW
or the kit builder. CZAW obviously cant make that certification, and I dont know
of any builder that has the technical expertise nor the materials documentation
to make that certification. Therefore, the owner / builder has the final
responsibility for their airplane.
>
>As I recall, CZAW was started by an American in the Czech Republic as a program
to assist builders to quickly assemble Zodiac kits. CZAW then morphed into a
company that manufactured complete Zodiac airplanes and sold kits. It is unclear
where the materials CZAW used actually originated. The Zenair - CZAW relationship
ended for a reason. I dont know what that reason was, but I strongly suspect
(my opinion strictly) that it was because the CZAW organization did not
exercise adequate quality control, especially over the materials they used and
or supplied to kit builders.
>
>So why are CH601XLs crashing? Is there a design flaw? The design has been verified
sever
>al times over, through analysis and through testing. You can advance all sorts
of convoluted arguments against this but the design simply does not have a flaw
that causes a wing to fold. The XL design, as ALL aircraft designs, is based
on clearly stated operating limitations. Operating outside the design limitations
of ANY aircraft subjects that aircraft to structural failure; and many of
them have failed and crashed.
>
>So are there problems with the way pilots are operating? We all know the limitations,
but some pilots forget about them, or fly into bad climate situations,
or have untenable equipment malfunctions, or simply choose to ignore the limitations,
because others have gotten away with it.
>
>Are there problems with the materials used? I am personally confident in the materials
supplied by Zenith. I do not have the same confidence in the materials
supplied by CZAW.
>
>Summation (Definitely my opinion): The Zodiac CH601XL problem is not design. The
Problems are:
>
>1) The way some pilots choose to fly the airplane, either on purpose or accidentally,
>
>2) Possible substandard materials and unsound design changes (from CZAW) and,
>
>3) Construction and maintenance errors on the part of builders/owners.
>
>These are highly personal opinions and not cold hard facts.
>
>A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all !!!
>
>Jay Bannister (alias Jay in Dallas)
>Zodiac CH 601XL N2630J Lil Bruiser
>
>BTW, I have crashed in a Zodiac CH
>601XLi (not mine). It had nothing to do with the design and the wings did not
fall off.
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Web cam up of 601xl build |
I am running on a Mac w/OSX10.4.11, using Safari v3.2.1. I've tried
about four or five times to get 'into' your link (the second one)(the
first one says it cannot connect to the server.
PROBLEM: On my system clicking on the second link opens your
AeroCam site but then goes into a closed loop and freezes up the
browser. Was wondering if anyone else was experiencing anything
like this.
I'm hoping to find a fix for this 'cause I'd really like to see your
progress and maybe ask a few questions as you go along.
Merry Christmas to all you folks
John R Reinking/Woodinville, WA (presently snowbound 3 days.)
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