---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/23/08: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:02 AM - OT: EM Aviation RiteAngle III For Sale (Bryan Martin) 2. 09:08 AM - Zodiac CH601XL "Problems" (jaybannist@cs.com) 3. 09:52 AM - Re: Zodiac CH601XL "Problems" (steve) 4. 10:54 AM - Instrument bezels (Bill Naumuk) 5. 07:43 PM - Re: Zodiac CH601XL (Juan Vega) 6. 11:38 PM - Re: Web cam up of 601xl build (John Reinking) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:02:11 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Zenith-List: OT: EM Aviation RiteAngle III For Sale I am selling an EM Aviation RiteAngle III angle of attack instrument on eBay If anyone is interested. I had it mounted on my 601 for a while but couldn't get it to work right. I think I had it mounted too far aft and it wasn't seeing a change in airflow. I removed it because I decided I didn't really need it in my plane. After removing it, I also discovered I had the flap sensor wired wrong. I have it working properly now on the bench, so it should work if it's properly installed. eBay Item number: 320326706743 -- Bryan Martin do not archive. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:08:37 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Zodiac CH601XL "Problems" From: jaybannist@cs.com Here is my take on the Zodiac CH 601XL =9Cproblem=9D: Chris Heintz designed quite a number of airplanes; for factory assembly, kit construction and plans building.=C2- There are thousands of airplanes of his designs flying, including CH601XLs registered in the USA as LSA, E-LSA, EAB and an extremely confusing array of registration designations in other c ountries. =C2- There is a lot of discussion about whether the CZAW kits and airplanes are i dentical to the ones from the USA.=C2- There are those that claim that the y are identical...except blah, blah & blah.=C2- They simply can=99t be identical if there are exceptions.=C2- I suspect (another personal opin ion) that there are differences that observers either will not; or, more lik ely, can=99t recognize.=C2- For instance, can a builder tell the dif ference between 6061-T6 aluminum and 6061-Txx? Absolutely not.=C2- Can a b uilder tell the difference between the Avex rivets that Zenith supplies and substandard imitators?=C2- No.=C2- Yet these differences can be signific ant and can certainly effect the structural integrity of the airframe.=C2 - The same applies to the different angle of incidence of the wing.=C2- Is the angle of the wing spar center section changed or is the wing twisted to change the angle? (The latter is the case)=C2-=C2- Analyzing the weig ht differences and plain old common sense tells me that there are more diffe rences yet.=C2- In short, all CH601XLs are NOT identical, and claiming so is simply engaging in fantasy. European bu ilders have given the argument that Chris Heintz=99s name on all the d rawings as evidence that Heintz is totally responsible for their airplanes. However, they assert that the drawings are the same as those in the USA....e xcept for the added drawings by CZAW.=C2- Drawings supplied by CZAW with C hris Heintz name on all of them do NOT establish absolute responsibility for the finished product.=C2- That would require certification that the kit m aterials or the complete airplane strictly adheres to the requirements state d in those drawings, either by CZAW or the kit builder.=C2- CZAW obviously can=99t make that certification, and I don=99t know of any buil der that has the technical expertise nor the materials documentation to make that certification. Therefore, the owner / builder has the final responsibi lity for their airplane. As I recall, CZAW was started by an American in the Czech Republic as a prog ram to assist builders to quickly assemble Zodiac kits.=C2- CZAW then morp hed into a company that manufactured complete Zodiac airplanes and sold kits .=C2- It is unclear where the materials CZAW used actually originated. The Zenair - CZAW relationship ended for a reason.=C2- I don=99t know w hat that reason was, but I strongly suspect (my opinion strictly) that it wa s because the CZAW organization did not exercise adequate quality control, e specially over the materials they used and or supplied to kit builders. So why are CH601XLs crashing?=C2- Is there a design flaw? The design has b een verified sever al times over, through analysis and through testing.=C2- You can advance a ll sorts of convoluted arguments against this but the design simply does not have a flaw that causes a wing to fold.=C2- The XL design, as ALL aircraf t designs, is based on clearly stated operating limitations.=C2- Operating outside the design limitations of ANY aircraft subjects that aircraft to st ructural failure; and many of them have failed and crashed. =C2- So are there problems with the way pilots are operating? We all know the lim itations, but some pilots forget about them, or fly into bad climate situati ons, or have untenable equipment malfunctions, or simply choose to ignore th e limitations, because others have =9Cgotten away with it=9D. Are there problems with the materials used?=C2- I am personally confident in the materials supplied by Zenith.=C2- I do not have the same confidence in the materials supplied by CZAW. Summation (Definitely my opinion): The Zodiac CH601XL =9Cproblem =9D is not design.=C2- The =9CProblems=9D are: 1) The way some pilots choose to fly the airplane, either on purpose or acci dentally, 2) Possible substandard materials and unsound design changes (from CZAW) and , 3) Construction and maintenance errors on the part of builders/owners. These are highly personal opinions and not cold hard facts. A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all !!! Jay Bannister (alias Jay in Dallas) Zodiac CH 601XL N2630J =9CLil Bruiser=9D BTW, I have crashed in a Zodiac CH 601XLi (not mine).=C2- It had nothing to do with the design and the wings did not fall off. ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:52:52 AM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac CH601XL "Problems" All sounds reasonable to me.. As many of you know, I ve been wrestling with my Weight and Balance. My rear CG is right at 450mm. Yet I read from the UK ( its on the UK Zenith website) that the CG in that country for the 601XL, is from 300 to 520mm. Same configuration as I have, same kit, same engine..... I ve forwarded the info to Zenith and they dont belive it. Said they will get back to me... One would think, Zenith knows.......... The reason I keep bringing this subject up is that I dont get it either... The 1600mm on the W&B is NOT in the "average" baggage area spot. My "baggage is right smack at 1850mm.... If a pilot put the baggage at the rear of the compartment I m sure the W&B will be waaaay out...... Any ideas?????? SW ----- Original Message ----- From: jaybannist@cs.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com ; zenith601-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 10:06 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Zodiac CH601XL "Problems" Here is my take on the Zodiac CH 601XL =9Cproblem=9D: Chris Heintz designed quite a number of airplanes; for factory assembly, kit construction and plans building. There are thousands of airplanes of his designs flying, including CH601XLs registered in the USA as LSA, E-LSA, EAB and an extremely confusing array of registration designations in other countries. There is a lot of discussion about whether the CZAW kits and airplanes are identical to the ones from the USA. There are those that claim that they are identical...except blah, blah & blah. They simply can=99t be identical if there are exceptions. I suspect (another personal opinion) that there are differences that observers either will not; or, more likely, can=99t recognize. For instance, can a builder tell the difference between 6061-T6 aluminum and 6061-Txx? Absolutely not. Can a builder tell the difference between the Avex rivets that Zenith supplies and substandard imitators? No. Yet these differences can be significant and can certainly effect the structural integrity of the airframe. The same applies to the different angle of incidence of the wing. Is the angle of the wing spar center section changed or is the wing twisted to change the angle? (The latter is the case) Analyzing the weight differences and plain old common sense tells me that there are more differences yet. In short, all CH601XLs are NOT identical, and cla iming so is simply engaging in fantasy. European builders have given the argument that Chris Heintz=99s name on all the drawings as evidence that Heintz is totally responsible for their airplanes. However, they assert that the drawings are the same as those in the USA....except for the added drawings by CZAW. Drawings supplied by CZAW with Chris Heintz name on all of them do NOT establish absolute responsibility for the finished product. That would require certification that the kit materials or the complete airplane strictly adheres to the requirements stated in those drawings, either by CZAW or the kit builder. CZAW obviously can=99t make that certification, and I don=99t know of any builder that has the technical expertise nor the materials documentation to make that certification. Therefore, the owner / builder has the final responsibility for their airplane. As I recall, CZAW was started by an American in the Czech Republic as a program to assist builders to quickly assemble Zodiac kits. CZAW then morphed into a company that manufactured complete Zodiac airplanes and sold kits. It is unclear where the materials CZAW used actually originated. The Zenair - CZAW relationship ended for a reason. I don=99t know what that reason was, but I strongly suspect (my opinion strictly) that it was because the CZAW organization did not exercise adequate quality control, especially over the materials they used and or supplied to kit builders. So why are CH601XLs cr ashing? Is there a design flaw? The design has been verified several times over, through analysis and through testing. You can advance all sorts of convoluted arguments against this but the design simply does not have a flaw that causes a wing to fold. The XL design, as ALL aircraft designs, is based on clearly stated operating limitations. Operating outside the design limitations of ANY aircraft subjects that aircraft to structural failure; and many of them have failed and crashed. So are there problems with the way pilots are operating? We all know the limitations, but some pilots forget about them, or fly into bad climate situations, or have untenable equipment malfunctions, or simply choose to ignore the limitations, because others have =9Cgotten away with it=9D. Are there problems with the materials used? I am personally confident in the materials supplied by Zenith. I do not have the same confidence in the materials supplied by CZAW. Summation (Definitely my opinion): The Zodiac CH601XL =9Cproblem=9D is not design. The =9CProblems=9D are: 1) The way some pilots choose to fly the airplane, either on purpose or accidentally, 2) Possible substandard materials and unsound design changes (from CZAW) and, 3) Construction and maintenance errors on the part of builders/owners. These are highly personal opinions and not cold hard facts. A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all !!! J ay Bannister (alias Jay in Dallas) Zodiac CH 601XL N2630J =9CLil Bruiser=9D BTW, I have crashed in a Zodiac CH 601XLi (not mine). It had nothing to do with the design and the wings did not fall off. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:54:42 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Instrument bezels All- I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but I think I found an outlet for off the shelf 3-1/8"bezels. do not archive Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:43:10 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac CH601XL Bravo, the truth is finally said! Juan -----Original Message----- >From: jaybannist@cs.com >Sent: Dec 23, 2008 12:06 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com, zenith601-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Zodiac CH601XL "Problems" > >Here is my take on the Zodiac CH 601XL problem: > >Chris Heintz designed quite a number of airplanes; for factory assembly, kit construction and plans building. There are thousands of airplanes of his designs flying, including CH601XLs registered in the USA as LSA, E-LSA, EAB and an extremely confusing array of registration designations in other countries. > >There is a lot of discussion about whether the CZAW kits and airplanes are identical to the ones from the USA. There are those that claim that they are identical...except blah, blah & blah. They simply cant be identical if there are exceptions. I suspect (another personal opinion) that there are differences that observers either will not; or, more likely, cant recognize. For instance, can a builder tell the difference between 6061-T6 aluminum and 6061-Txx? Absolutely not. Can a builder tell the difference between the Avex rivets that Zenith supplies and substandard imitators? No. Yet these differences can be significant and can certainly effect the structural integrity of the airframe. The same applies to the different angle of incidence of the wing. Is the angle of the wing spar center section changed or is the wing twisted to change the angle? (The latter is the case) Analyzing the weight differences and plain old common sense tells me that there are more differences yet. In short, all CH601XLs are NOT identical, and claiming so is simply engaging in fantasy. > >European bu >ilders have given the argument that Chris Heintzs name on all the drawings as evidence that Heintz is totally responsible for their airplanes. However, they assert that the drawings are the same as those in the USA....except for the added drawings by CZAW. Drawings supplied by CZAW with Chris Heintz name on all of them do NOT establish absolute responsibility for the finished product. That would require certification that the kit materials or the complete airplane strictly adheres to the requirements stated in those drawings, either by CZAW or the kit builder. CZAW obviously cant make that certification, and I dont know of any builder that has the technical expertise nor the materials documentation to make that certification. Therefore, the owner / builder has the final responsibility for their airplane. > >As I recall, CZAW was started by an American in the Czech Republic as a program to assist builders to quickly assemble Zodiac kits. CZAW then morphed into a company that manufactured complete Zodiac airplanes and sold kits. It is unclear where the materials CZAW used actually originated. The Zenair - CZAW relationship ended for a reason. I dont know what that reason was, but I strongly suspect (my opinion strictly) that it was because the CZAW organization did not exercise adequate quality control, especially over the materials they used and or supplied to kit builders. > >So why are CH601XLs crashing? Is there a design flaw? The design has been verified sever >al times over, through analysis and through testing. You can advance all sorts of convoluted arguments against this but the design simply does not have a flaw that causes a wing to fold. The XL design, as ALL aircraft designs, is based on clearly stated operating limitations. Operating outside the design limitations of ANY aircraft subjects that aircraft to structural failure; and many of them have failed and crashed. > >So are there problems with the way pilots are operating? We all know the limitations, but some pilots forget about them, or fly into bad climate situations, or have untenable equipment malfunctions, or simply choose to ignore the limitations, because others have gotten away with it. > >Are there problems with the materials used? I am personally confident in the materials supplied by Zenith. I do not have the same confidence in the materials supplied by CZAW. > >Summation (Definitely my opinion): The Zodiac CH601XL problem is not design. The Problems are: > >1) The way some pilots choose to fly the airplane, either on purpose or accidentally, > >2) Possible substandard materials and unsound design changes (from CZAW) and, > >3) Construction and maintenance errors on the part of builders/owners. > >These are highly personal opinions and not cold hard facts. > >A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all !!! > >Jay Bannister (alias Jay in Dallas) >Zodiac CH 601XL N2630J Lil Bruiser > >BTW, I have crashed in a Zodiac CH >601XLi (not mine). It had nothing to do with the design and the wings did not fall off. > >________________________________________________________________________ >Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:38:02 PM PST US From: John Reinking Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Web cam up of 601xl build I am running on a Mac w/OSX10.4.11, using Safari v3.2.1. I've tried about four or five times to get 'into' your link (the second one)(the first one says it cannot connect to the server. PROBLEM: On my system clicking on the second link opens your AeroCam site but then goes into a closed loop and freezes up the browser. Was wondering if anyone else was experiencing anything like this. I'm hoping to find a fix for this 'cause I'd really like to see your progress and maybe ask a few questions as you go along. Merry Christmas to all you folks John R Reinking/Woodinville, WA (presently snowbound 3 days.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.