---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/24/08: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:38 AM - Re: Web cam up of 601xl build (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 2. 02:38 AM - Re: Web cam up of 601xl build (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 3. 06:51 AM - Re: Web cam up of 601xl build (Carlos Sa) 4. 07:00 AM - Merry Christmas (pavel569) 5. 07:05 AM - Re: Web cam up of 601xl build (Ronald Steele) 6. 07:14 AM - Re: Web cam up of 601xl build (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 7. 08:03 AM - Happy Holidays (Leo Gates) 8. 08:53 AM - Re: Zodiac CH601XL "Problems" (Clive Richards) 9. 09:40 AM - Re: Zodiac CH601XL "Problems" (steve) 10. 10:32 AM - Re: RiteAngle AOA (EMAproducts@aol.com) 11. 10:34 AM - Twas the night before Christmas (steveadams) 12. 11:46 AM - Re: Re: RiteAngle AOA (steve) 13. 01:46 PM - Re: Zodiac CH601XL "Problems" (jetboy) 14. 03:53 PM - Re: Re: RiteAngle AOA (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:38:06 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Web cam up of 601xl build They say I can't stream from a Mac so I'm not sure if it can be viewed from one? I don't use a Mac so I'm not sure if Fire fox might work. Jeff **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:38:31 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Web cam up of 601xl build Also check _www.camstreams.com_ (http://www.camstreams.com) and see if they have a work around. Jeff **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:13 AM PST US From: "Carlos Sa" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Web cam up of 601xl build I am using an iMac with OS X 10.5.5 and Firefox 3.0.5 I can see the workshop - it's always empty, but I don't think it is a technology problem... ;-) Merry Christmas Carlos do not archive 2008/12/24 John Reinking > > I am running on a Mac w/OSX10.4.11, using Safari v3.2.1. I've tried about > four or five times to get 'into' your link (the second one)(the first one > says it cannot connect to the server. > > PROBLEM: On my system clicking on the second link opens your AeroCam site > but then goes into a closed loop and freezes up the browser. Was > wondering if anyone else was experiencing anything like this. > > I'm hoping to find a fix for this 'cause I'd really like to see your > progress and maybe ask a few questions as you go along. > > Merry Christmas to all you folks > > John R Reinking/Woodinville, WA (presently snowbound 3 days.) > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:00:14 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Merry Christmas From: "pavel569" Let's leave the wing failure behind for a while and have a great holiday time. My wings are done and I'll start on fuse this Xmas Holiday. Once again, Merry Christmas to everyone, let's have a fun building and flying our planes. -------- Pavel CA Zodiac XL N581PM (Reserved) Stratus Subaru EA-81 Tail, flaps, ailerons, wings done, fuselage is on the table .... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220919#220919 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:47 AM PST US From: Ronald Steele Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Web cam up of 601xl build I'm using a Mac with OSX 10-5-6 and the free version of Flip-for-Mac to play windows media. This seems to working OK. The first time I tried it, when it was first announced, it didn't work, now it does. It does take a while to load over my DSL connection. Ron On Dec 24, 2008, at 5:35 AM, Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote: > They say I can't stream from a Mac so I'm not sure if it can be > viewed from one? I don't use a Mac so I'm not sure if Fire fox might > work. > > Jeff > > > One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and > Yahoo Mail. Try it now. > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:04 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Web cam up of 601xl build I was there from 11:00 till 8:00 this morning .... I get more work done at night because everyone else is asleep and don't call me. Jeff **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:06 AM PST US From: Leo Gates Subject: Zenith-List: Happy Holidays *HAPPY HOLIDAYS Y'ALL! FROM TEXAS 8-) * -- Leo Gates N601Z - CH601HDS TDO Rotax 912UL ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:32 AM PST US From: "Clive Richards" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac CH601XL "Problems" Steve What is the web address of this Zenith site in UK you refer to I am in the UK & no of no such site there is a Zenair Europe site http://www.zenairulm.com/Home/index.htm & lists outstanding European ADs but refers back to US site for technical details. For the 601 HD our LAA have reduced the rear limit we can use. Clive do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: steve To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 5:47 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac CH601XL "Problems" All sounds reasonable to me.. As many of you know, I ve been wrestling with my Weight and Balance. My rear CG is right at 450mm. Yet I read from the UK ( its on the UK Zenith website) that the CG in that country for the 601XL, is from 300 to 520mm. Same configuration as I have, same kit, same engine..... I ve forwarded the info to Zenith and they dont belive it. Said they will get back to me... One would think, Zenith knows.......... The reason I keep bringing this subject up is that I dont get it either... The 1600mm on the W&B is NOT in the "average" baggage area spot. My "baggage is right smack at 1850mm.... If a pilot put the baggage at the rear of the compartment I m sure the W&B will be waaaay out...... Any ideas?????? SW ----- Original Message ----- From: jaybannist@cs.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com ; zenith601-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 10:06 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Zodiac CH601XL "Problems" Here is my take on the Zodiac CH 601XL =9Cproblem=9D: Chris Heintz designed quite a number of airplanes; for factory assembly, kit construction and plans building. There are thousands of airplanes of his designs flying, including CH601XLs registered in the USA as LSA, E-LSA, EAB and an extremely confusing array of registration designations in other countries. There is a lot of discussion about whether the CZAW kits and airplanes are identical to the ones from the USA. There are those that claim that they are identical...except blah, blah & blah. They simply can=99t be identical if there are exceptions. I suspect (another personal opinion) that there are differences that observers either will not; or, more likely, can=99t recognize. For instance, can a builder tell the difference between 6061-T6 aluminum and 6061-Txx? Absolutely not. Can a builder tell the difference between the Avex rivets that Zenith supplies and substandard imitators? No. Yet these differences can be significant and can certainly effect the structural integrity of the airframe. The same applies to the different angle of incidence of the wing. Is the angle of the wing spar center section changed or is the wing twisted to change the angle? (The latter is the case) Analyzing the weight differences and plain old common sense tells me that there are more differences yet. In short, all CH601XLs are NOT identical, and cla iming so is simply engaging in fantasy. European builders have given the argument that Chris Heintz=99s name on all the drawings as evidence that Heintz is totally responsible for their airplanes. However, they assert that the drawings are the same as those in the USA....except for the added drawings by CZAW. Drawings supplied by CZAW with Chris Heintz name on all of them do NOT establish absolute responsibility for the finished product. That would require certification that the kit materials or the complete airplane strictly adheres to the requirements stated in those drawings, either by CZAW or the kit builder. CZAW obviously can=99t make that certification, and I don=99t know of any builder that has the technical expertise nor the materials documentation to make that certification. Therefore, the owner / builder has the final responsibility for their airplane. As I recall, CZAW was started by an American in the Czech Republic as a program to assist builders to quickly assemble Zodiac kits. CZAW then morphed into a company that manufactured complete Zodiac airplanes and sold kits. It is unclear where the materials CZAW used actually originated. The Zenair - CZAW relationship ended for a reason. I don=99t know what that reason was, but I strongly suspect (my opinion strictly) that it was because the CZAW organization did not exercise adequate quality control, especially over the materials they used and or supplied to kit builders. So why are CH601XLs cr ashing? Is there a design flaw? The design has been verified several times over, through analysis and through testing. You can advance all sorts of convoluted arguments against this but the design simply does not have a flaw that causes a wing to fold. The XL design, as ALL aircraft designs, is based on clearly stated operating limitations. Operating outside the design limitations of ANY aircraft subjects that aircraft to structural failure; and many of them have failed and crashed. So are there problems with the way pilots are operating? We all know the limitations, but some pilots forget about them, or fly into bad climate situations, or have untenable equipment malfunctions, or simply choose to ignore the limitations, because others have =9Cgotten away with it=9D. Are there problems with the materials used? I am personally confident in the materials supplied by Zenith. I do not have the same confidence in the materials supplied by CZAW. Summation (Definitely my opinion): The Zodiac CH601XL =9Cproblem=9D is not design. The =9CProblems=9D are: 1) The way some pilots choose to fly the airplane, either on purpose or accidentally, 2) Possible substandard materials and unsound design changes (from CZAW) and, 3) Construction and maintenance errors on the part of builders/owners. These are highly personal opinions and not cold hard facts. A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all !!! J ay Bannister (alias Jay in Dallas) Zodiac CH 601XL N2630J =9CLil Bruiser=9D BTW, I have crashed in a Zodiac CH 601XLi (not mine). It had nothing to do with the design and the wings did not fall off. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:40:20 AM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac CH601XL "Problems" Clive email me direct so I can get it from my docs and upload it to you. Today I also receive an email from a Mr. Lewis ( I believe from France) and he states that he has a letter from CH himself which approves the 520mm. I ll upload that also. Its still not proof of why the USA version is at 450mm, but I think its very interesting.... notsew_evets@frontiernet.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Clive Richards To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 9:52 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac CH601XL "Problems" Steve What is the web address of this Zenith site in UK you refer to I am in the UK & no of no such site there is a Zenair Europe site http://www.zenairulm.com/Home/index.htm & lists outstanding European ADs but refers back to US site for technical details. For the 601 HD our LAA have reduced the rear limit we can use. Clive do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: steve To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 5:47 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac CH601XL "Problems" All sounds reasonable to me.. As many of you know, I ve been wrestling with my Weight and Balance. My rear CG is right at 450mm. Yet I read from the UK ( its on the UK Zenith website) that the CG in that country for the 601XL, is from 300 to 520mm. Same configuration as I have, same kit, same engine..... I ve forwarded the info to Zenith and they dont belive it. Said they will get back to me... One would think, Zenith knows.......... The reason I keep bringing this subject up is that I dont get it either... The 1600mm on the W&B is NOT in the "average" baggage area spot. My "baggage is right smack at 1850mm.... If a pilot put the baggage at the rear of the compartment I m sure the W&B will be waaaay out...... Any ideas?????? SW ----- Original Message ----- From: jaybannist@cs.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com ; zenith601-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 10:06 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Zodiac CH601XL "Problems" Here is my take on the Zodiac CH 601XL =9Cproblem=9D: Chris Heintz designed quite a number of airplanes; for factory assembly, kit construction and plans building. There are thousands of airplanes of his designs flying, including CH601XLs registered in the USA as LSA, E-LSA, EAB and an extremely confusing array of registration designations in other countries. There is a lot of discussion about whether the CZAW kits and airplanes are identical to the ones from the USA. There are those that claim that they are identical...except blah, blah & blah. They simply can=99t be identical if there are exceptions. I suspect (another personal opinion) that there are differences that observers either will not; or, more likely, can=99t recognize. For instance, can a builder tell the difference between 6061-T6 aluminum and 6061-Txx? Absolutely not. Can a builder tell the difference between the Avex rivets that Zenith supplies and substandard imitators? No. Yet these differences can be significant and can certainly effect the structural integrity of the airframe. The same applies to the different angle of incidence of the wing. Is the angle of the wing spar center section changed or is the wing twisted to change the angle? (The latter is the case) Analyzing the weight differences and plain old common sense tells me that there are more differences yet. In short, all CH601XLs are NOT identical, and cla iming so is simply engaging in fantasy. European builders have given the argument that Chris Heintz=99s name on all the drawings as evidence that Heintz is totally responsible for their airplanes. However, they assert that the drawings are the same as those in the USA....except for the added drawings by CZAW. Drawings supplied by CZAW with Chris Heintz name on all of them do NOT establish absolute responsibility for the finished product. That would require certification that the kit materials or the complete airplane strictly adheres to the requirements stated in those drawings, either by CZAW or the kit builder. CZAW obviously can=99t make that certification, and I don=99t know of any builder that has the technical expertise nor the materials documentation to make that certification. Therefore, the owner / builder has the final responsibility for their airplane. As I recall, CZAW was started by an American in the Czech Republic as a program to assist builders to quickly assemble Zodiac kits. CZAW then morphed into a company that manufactured complete Zodiac airplanes and sold kits. It is unclear where the materials CZAW used actually originated. The Zenair - CZAW relationship ended for a reason. I don=99t know what that reason was, but I strongly suspect (my opinion strictly) that it was because the CZAW organization did not exercise adequate quality control, especially over the materials they used and or supplied to kit builders. So why are CH601XLs cr ashing? Is there a design flaw? The design has been verified several times over, through analysis and through testing. You can advance all sorts of convoluted arguments against this but the design simply does not have a flaw that causes a wing to fold. The XL design, as ALL aircraft designs, is based on clearly stated operating limitations. Operating outside the design limitations of ANY aircraft subjects that aircraft to structural failure; and many of them have failed and crashed. So are there problems with the way pilots are operating? We all know the limitations, but some pilots forget about them, or fly into bad climate situations, or have untenable equipment malfunctions, or simply choose to ignore the limitations, because others have =9Cgotten away with it=9D. Are there problems with the materials used? I am personally confident in the materials supplied by Zenith. I do not have the same confidence in the materials supplied by CZAW. Summation (Definitely my opinion): The Zodiac CH601XL =9Cproblem=9D is not design. The =9CProblems=9D are: 1) The way some pilots choose to fly the airplane, either on purpose or accidentally, 2) Possible substandard materials and unsound design changes (from CZAW) and, 3) Construction and maintenance errors on the part of builders/owners. These are highly personal opinions and not cold hard facts. A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all !!! J ay Bannister (alias Jay in Dallas) Zodiac CH 601XL N2630J =9CLil Bruiser=9D BTW, I have crashed in a Zodiac CH 601XLi (not mine). It had nothing to do with the design and the wings did not fall off. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:19 AM PST US From: EMAproducts@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: RE: RiteAngle AOA If Anyone has problems with a RiteAngle AOA, they should contact me, The systems will work if installed correctly. Customer Service is what I pride having in my business. I've been making and selling AOA systems since 1995. I'm sorry Bryan doesn't feel it is needed, No one plans on an accident. The systems are working on I believe all models except the latest mods of Zenith aircraft. Fly the Safe Angle with the RiteAngle Elbie Mendenhall EM Aviation, LLC 360-260-0772 _www.riteangle_ (http://www.riteangle.com) .com or _riteangle3@aol.com_ (mailto:riteangle3@aol.com) **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:34 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Twas the night before Christmas From: "steveadams" This was from my daughters Christmas card a few years ago....... Twas the night before Christmas and all through the shop, not a creature was stirring, not even my Pop All the tools were hung on the wall with care, In hopes that the new parts would soon be there my daddy lay snoring upstairs in his bed while visions of airplanes danced in his head Out in the yard there arose such a clatter I ran down the stairs to see what was the matter Out in the driveway at the back of the van Was my mother and brother, a big box in their hands The bottom had opened and layed out in the grass were pieces of metal and plastic and glass It didn't look like an airplane, it looked like nothing at all but daddy had promised it would fly come next fall Then next christmas we'd hear as he flew into the night Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good flight! Merry Christmas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220953#220953 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:43 AM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: RiteAngle AOA Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Elbie.. Steve W CFI, Las Vegas class 2006 Zenith 601 XL N 9554 Z "Almost flying" ----- Original Message ----- From: EMAproducts@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 11:30 AM Subject: Zenith-List: RE: RiteAngle AOA If Anyone has problems with a RiteAngle AOA, they should contact me, The systems will work if installed correctly. Customer Service is what I pride having in my business. I've been making and selling AOA systems since 1995. I'm sorry Bryan doesn't feel it is needed, No one plans on an accident. The systems are working on I believe all models except the latest mods of Zenith aircraft. Fly the Safe Angle with the RiteAngle Elbie Mendenhall EM Aviation, LLC 360-260-0772 www.riteangle.com or riteangle3@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mad=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025">Try it now. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:07 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zodiac CH601XL "Problems" From: "jetboy" Hi all, getting the correct figures for the various configurations is a difficult proposition. I have a CZAW 701 airframe and as far as I can tell its made from all the usual USA 49% kit parts, Matco wheels etc. Wherever alterations are made there is an extra page in the plans detailing the CZAW mod and reason (usually to comply with the BCAR-S design rules used in Europe) and some of these mods have been incorporated in subsequent ZAC plans revisions, for example the seatbelt attach points. There is however, very little guidance as to any new loading / flight airspeeds that must arise from some changes. When the CH701 flap travel was reduced to 16 deg. there is no change to the USA vfe 52 Kts however CZAW have it at 55 Kts which seems more realistic. I wrote to ZAC and dealers about this and got nil response. Maybe I missed something because I dont get "Zenair news" but it seems a little odd that there is no updated design information available from source. This is similar to the situation that exists when owners are upgrading their CH600 series to the new weights. They get a note saying its OK to operate with reduced G loading ( in effect cutting out the factor of safety margins ) however there is no guidance or requirement to re-placard the airspeed and operating limitations. In New Zealand they are just waking up to this sort of thing with topdressing aircraft that have been breaking up in part due to the 31% overload rules that were applied some years back. http://www.caa.govt.nz/GA/Ag_Aviation/Ag_Aircraft_Safety_Review.htm take care out there ralph -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220986#220986 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:53:54 PM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: RiteAngle AOA Elbie, I don't have one of your AOA systems. I assembled my own for my XL. The fellow saying he does not need an AOA is probably a much better pilot than I am or most of us, because I will not own a plane without one or the whole U.S. Navy. We have fire extinguishers, five point harnesses, little hammers to bust a canopy, ELTs to signal where we crashed, first aid kits and survival gear, but the best, cheapest safety gear to help you take off, fly and land he don't need. Oh well, some folks you just can't help. Best regards, Bill of Georgia ************** One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.