---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/30/08: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:34 AM - Yahoo! Auto Response (wfwilson1@yahoo.ca) 2. 02:33 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 3. 02:44 AM - drip trays (vann covington) 4. 09:48 AM - pro-seal fuel tanks questions (leinad) 5. 10:33 AM - Re: Re: Engine Cooling (Ken Lilja) 6. 01:22 PM - drip trays (Dan Wilde) 7. 01:42 PM - Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump (Tim Juhl) 8. 02:14 PM - Re: pro-seal fuel tanks questions (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 9. 02:47 PM - Fw: Last 229 Newsletter (Dick) 10. 03:16 PM - Re: drip trays (Craig Payne) 11. 03:31 PM - Re: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump (Roger & Lina Hill) 12. 05:12 PM - Re: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 13. 09:35 PM - Re: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump (Roger & Lina Hill) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:34:35 AM PST US From: wfwilson1@yahoo.ca Subject: Zenith-List: Yahoo! Auto Response I will have limited access to my mail until Apr 19/09. So there might be slow response. Regards Wayne ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:33:29 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump Tim When you run aluminum lines for the brakes you add a loop to absorb the vibration. All the brake lines I have installed on the 601 have been aluminum and have had no problems. And before a flame gets started I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the lines Zenith supplies I just prefer aluminum. Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs _www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/) _www.project601xl.com_ (http://www.project601xl.com/) www.aerolite.camstreams.com do not archive Oops! I forgot to mention that I had a aluminum brake line fail once. It broke when I tried to reposition it slightly. The line broke near the top of the landing gear where it was exposed to flexing during every flight. A poor design in my view. I would never use a aluminum line where it would be exposed to any movement. Tim **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:44:12 AM PST US From: vann covington Subject: Zenith-List: drip trays Thanks for the advice on the drip trays.- I checked with CPS 2008 cat. an d-rotax wanted $149.00 for a set of two, but when I ordered them they wer e now $250.00 for two in the 2009 cat!- After regaining my composer I ask ed CPS what their cost was.- CPS said their cost was $200.00.- Could no t justify spending that. - I noticed on CT's site, they had some on their 912's.- I called and o rdered theirs for $21.00 ea.- Slightly different design, same principle. - Not bad.- Vann=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:15 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: pro-seal fuel tanks questions From: "leinad" I have some tooling holes in my fuel tank parts that I was intending to fill with solid AN-6 rivets. Will these self seal, or should i smear pro-seal around them. If so, should they be smeared with the goo before or after setting them. Of course it would be a lot less messy if I smear the stuff around the shop head after setting them. -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221803#221803 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:33:51 AM PST US From: Ken Lilja Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Engine Cooling Better than ram air is a defuser. If you look at modern versions of older designs the cooling air inlet area is now about 30% of what they were. The air path forms a divergent duct. By Bernoulli's principle the air slows down and pressure goes up. Manufactures look for a pressure drop from top to the bottom of the engine. One plane I have worked on needed a 6" of water pressure difference. Some aircraft use an augmenter exhaust to lower the pressure in the lower cowl. This uses the exhaust flow to create a venturi effect. The images are of a Diamond DA-40 with a 180HP Lycoming. The air inlets are about 6" in diameter. They feed into a plenum defuser. Air must be prevented from getting past the baffle seals. Also air will try to leak around the propshaft. Teaching turbine engines at the moment, Ken Lilja Afterfxllc@aol.com wrote: > Brady > > With all due respect, how many aircraft have you built? You are > starting to be the WW of the Zenith list. I think you are a smart guy > and like what you are trying to do but wouldn't it be better to have > built at least 1 airplane before you hand out answers to others > problems? Having worked on a Jab that overheats it is a pain in the > ass engine when it comes to cooling. Jab will tell you they don't have > a problem but I have seen too many posts about overheating to believe > that. > > BTW if the intake is small where is it going to "Suck" the air from? > The Jab uses small deflectors inside the baffles and if they are too > big or small the rear cylinder will overheat. > > Jeff > > > > > Bobby, > > Be sure not to over look the exit. > All the intake in the world won't do you any good if it has nowhere to go. > Try to "suck" the cooling through. > > I have seen studies that say the intake is far less important than the > exhaust side of the cooling system. > > Also be sure you oil cooler is getting fresh air. > the oil cooler is at least as important because it is an integral part > of the whole cooling picture. > > Just food for thought. > Good luck. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:22:10 PM PST US From: Dan Wilde Subject: Zenith-List: drip trays Vann: What company is CT? At that only $21, I would like to buy a couple. Dan Wilde I noticed on CT's site, they had some on their 912's. I called and ordered theirs for $21.00 ea. Slightly different design, same principle. Not bad. Vann ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:42:01 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel Lines and Fuel Pump From: "Tim Juhl" Jeff, The broken brake line in question was on the 1975 C182 I used to own. There was no loop as you describe. I added hydraulic brakes to my Aeronca Champ and used aluminum lines everywhere except from the bottom of the gear leg to the brake cylinder and where the brake lines came off the parking brake valve to the top of the axle struts. Those two areas are exposed to the wind and subject to a lot of flex. I also prefer the aluminum lines but as of now am planning to go with the nylon lines that came with the kit. We'll see what happens :-) Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221831#221831 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:14:03 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: pro-seal fuel tanks questions No they will not self seal. You need to put pro seal on the rivet before you buck it and then around the head after it is set. Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs _www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/) _www.project601xl.com_ (http://www.project601xl.com/) www.aerolite.camstreams.com **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:47:50 PM PST US From: "Dick" Subject: Zenith-List: Fw: Last 229 Newsletter Earle, Please delete both Jim Campbells address and email address. He's moved. Thanks, Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Nonnienat@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 2:58 PM Subject: Re: Last 229 Newsletter Please take my name off of the list of people that you send the air port information to. I gave it to Jim Campbell and no longer see him after his move. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Don't be the last to know - click here for the latest news that will have people talking. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:25 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: drip trays Maybe Flight Design? Maker/dealer of the CTsw and CTLS Rotax-powered aircraft? -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Wilde Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 2:21 PM Subject: Zenith-List: drip trays Vann: What company is CT? At that only $21, I would like to buy a couple. Dan Wilde I noticed on CT's site, they had some on their 912's. I called and ordered theirs for $21.00 ea. Slightly different design, same principle. Not bad. Vann ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:31:40 PM PST US From: "Roger & Lina Hill" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump Jeff; I don't think it's possible to create a spark with enough energy to ignite fuel with less than 28 volts DC, let along 12 volts. 24 VDC is referred to as intrinsically safe in the instrumentation industry, they use 24VDC instruments in grain elevators which are know to blowup, so I don't see that anyone should worry about running 12 VDC in their wing and possibly causing a fire in a landing accident. Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol.com Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:23 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump That's why it's a bad idea to put the pumps in the wing next to the tanks 12 V next to the fuel tanks don't sound that great to me and in an accident it would most likely break the wires and cause a spark. On all the planes I have built the ONLY flexible lines on the whole aircraft are the fuel line from the firewall to the carb. and the brake lines inside the cabin. Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs www.aeroliteproducts.com www.project601xl.com www.aerolite.camstreams.com John Let me add a thought. This came up on the RV list several years ago and someone offered the opinion that the metal lines are more likly to break in an accident. Maybe? Carroll _____ One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:05 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump Roger I respect your opinion but must strongly disagree, Gas fumes will ignite with the slightest spark otherwise the biggest risk from a survivable crash wouldn't be fire. Jeff Jeff; I don=99t think it=99s possible to create a spark with enough e nergy to ignite fuel with less than 28 volts DC, let along 12 volts. 24 VDC is referred to as intrinsically safe in the instrumentation industry, they use 24VDC instruments in grain elevators which are know to blowup, so I don=99t see that anyone should worry about running 12 VDC in their wing and possibly causing a fire in a landing accident. Roger ____________________________________ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol. com Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:23 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump That's why it's a bad idea to put the pumps in the wing next to the tanks 1 2 V next to the fuel tanks don't sound that great to me and in an accident it would most likely break the wires and cause a spark. On all the planes I have built the ONLY flexible lines on the whole aircraf t are the fuel line from the firewall to the carb. and the brake lines inside the cabin. Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs _www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/) _www.project601xl.com_ (http://www.project601xl.com/) _www.aerolite.camstreams.com_ (http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/) John Let me add a thought. This came up on the RV list several years ago and someone offered the opinion that the metal lines are more likly to break in an accident. Maybe? Carroll **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. m00000025) ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:46 PM PST US From: "Roger & Lina Hill" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump Jeff; Fuel is typically ignited, after a crash from a small plane, because it drips on the hot exhaust pipes, which are about 1000 degrees near the engine. Electrical power from a 12 volt aircraft system is protected by a fuse, for wing tanks pumps, it is typically 5 amps. If the fuel pump hot wire was to ground, a tiny and cool spark would result, and be gone in about 50 msec as the fuse blows from the overload (assuming you have installed the correct fuses for your pump). It's a bit complicated, but basically the number of electrons that can jump through the air with 12 Volts source applied simply don't have enough energy (I.E. heat) associated with them to ignite gasoline. When you see hot sparks from a 12 volts source being grounded, your actually seeing the conductive material melting and becoming incandescent because the current is applied for to long. The job of your aircraft fusing is to prevent the flow of electricity from becoming so great so as to heat the conductive material to this degree, I.E, the fuse will blow first before over heating of the conductive metal occurs and creates sparks hot enough to ignite fuel. However, an unfused direct link from the battery has enough amps to heat metal to such a degree that it would ignite fuel vapor. Even then, the grounding of the battery would still need to be continues enough to heat contact metals to the combustion temperature of gasoline vapor (But of course you properly fuse all of your wires going to the wings, don't you?) Clear as mud? Hope this helps Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump Roger I respect your opinion but must strongly disagree, Gas fumes will ignite with the slightest spark otherwise the biggest risk from a survivable crash wouldn't be fire. Jeff Jeff; I don't think it's possible to create a spark with enough energy to ignite fuel with less than 28 volts DC, let along 12 volts. 24 VDC is referred to as intrinsically safe in the instrumentation industry, they use 24VDC instruments in grain elevators which are know to blowup, so I don't see that anyone should worry about running 12 VDC in their wing and possibly causing a fire in a landing accident. Roger _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol.com Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:23 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump That's why it's a bad idea to put the pumps in the wing next to the tanks 12 V next to the fuel tanks don't sound that great to me and in an accident it would most likely break the wires and cause a spark. On all the planes I have built the ONLY flexible lines on the whole aircraft are the fuel line from the firewall to the carb. and the brake lines inside the cabin. Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs www.aeroliteproducts.com www.project601xl.com www.aerolite.camstreams.com John Let me add a thought. This came up on the RV list several years ago and someone offered the opinion that the metal lines are more likly to break in an accident. Maybe? Carroll _____ One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try 025> it now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.