Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:38 AM - drip trays (vann covington)
2. 05:25 AM - flap alignment (Gary Thomas)
3. 06:14 AM - Re: flap alignment (Gig Giacona)
4. 06:29 AM - Re: flap alignment (jaybannist@cs.com)
5. 07:03 AM - zenith.aero (Carlos Sa)
6. 07:29 AM - Re: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump (steve)
7. 08:03 AM - Re: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
8. 08:16 AM - Re: flap alignment (T. Graziano)
9. 08:22 AM - Re: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump (Bryan Martin)
10. 08:22 AM - GPS Tracking (Wingrider)
11. 08:34 AM - Re: GPS Tracking (Bryan Martin)
12. 09:14 AM - Re: GPS Tracking (Terry Phillips)
13. 09:36 AM - Re: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump (steve)
14. 09:54 AM - Re: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump (Flydog1966@aol.com)
15. 10:00 AM - Re: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
16. 10:04 AM - Re: GPS Tracking (Gig Giacona)
17. 10:51 AM - Re: GPS Tracking (Wingrider)
18. 10:52 AM - Re: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump ()
19. 11:26 AM - Re: GPS Tracking (Craig Payne)
20. 12:43 PM - 2 More fun videos :) (Brady)
21. 03:00 PM - Re: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump (Roger & Lina Hill)
22. 03:05 PM - Re: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump (Roger & Lina Hill)
23. 03:13 PM - Re: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump (Roger & Lina Hill)
24. 03:16 PM - Re: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump (Roger & Lina Hill)
25. 04:21 PM - Re: 2 More fun videos :) (n801bh@netzero.com)
26. 05:02 PM - Re: Fuel lines (ThisOne)
27. 05:23 PM - Riveter heads (Bill Naumuk)
28. 05:51 PM - Radio Tray (Bill Naumuk)
29. 06:21 PM - Re: 2 More fun videos :) (Brady)
30. 06:28 PM - Re: Radio Tray (jaybannist@cs.com)
31. 09:10 PM - Re: Radio Tray (Craig Payne)
Message 1
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Flight Design is the company.- Check their web site.- I called the numb
er on the site home page.- Vann=0A=0A=0A
Message 2
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I got to put my flaps on the plane the other day. The plans say that there should
be a 6mm gap between the top of the flap and the rear wing spar. I can see
using a straight edge that this gap gets the flap nice and lined up with the
wing.
The problem - after a lot of care in lining up all the components, I still don't
have the two flaps level. The best I can get is to have one of them off by
4mm and the other off by 8mm.
Has anyone else been through this or talked to Zenith? I'm not sure how close is
good enough. Would hate to go corkscrewing through the sky on the first flight
Gary
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: flap alignment |
By 4 & 8mm do you mean a total of 10 & 14mm gap?
If so you need to see which end is stopping the flap from coming up fully the inboard
side or the outboard stop.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221908#221908
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: flap alignment |
Gary,
If the flap control plates (6W1-3) are in identical positions on both flaps, alignment
is then determined by the attachment of the flap control arm (6B19-3)
on the flap control tubes.? My instructions called for this connection to be drilled
and bolted during the installation of the flap control system.? I now believe
that this should be done only after the wings and flaps are installed.?
There are simply too many critical variables, requiring a close tolerance, to
be able to get this right without all the components in place.? I misaligned
the flap control arm by only a few degrees and did not discover it until I tried
to set the flap limit switches.? Because of the complex geometry of the system,
the error prevents useful placement of the limit switches.? At this point
in the construction, I would have had to tear the airplane apart to fix it.?
My "work around" was to design and fabricate an extension to the flap control
arm to correct the geometry.
In your case, one of the control tubes is not aligned with the other one.? A 4mm
difference at the top forward corner of the flap means almost a 1/2" difference
at the trailing edge of the flaps. In my estimation, that is too much, and
should be corrected.? It may be possible to remove the bolt from the inboard
side of the flap control arm (because that one is longer and more accessible),
rotate the tube for proper flap alignment and drill another bolt hole. In any
case, I would check with ZAC to see if that is OK.
Jay in Dallas
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Thomas <garythomas8708@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 7:22 am
Subject: Zenith-List: flap alignment
I got to put my flaps on the plane the other day. The plans say that there
should be a 6mm gap between the top of the flap and the rear wing spar. I can
see using a straight edge that this gap gets the flap nice and lined up with the
wing.
The problem - after a lot of care in lining up all the components, I still don't
have the two flaps level. The best I can get is to have one of them off by 4mm
and the other off by 8mm.
Has anyone else been through this or talked to Zenith? I'm not sure how close is
good enough. Would hate to go corkscrewing through the sky on the first flight
Gary
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
Message 5
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Hello, all
In case you have received an invite to join zenith.aero, and are wondering
if it is real, I can assure it is.
I have already joined. The web site has potential...
123 members at the moment, several from the z-lists.
http://www.zenith.aero/
Happy New Year !
Carlos
do not archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump |
There was a very good video a few years ago showing a float plane pilot
fueling his airplane using plastic gas cans.
The static caused from the plastic can set off the vapors and the result
was a disaster...
When fueling a plastic gas can at the local gas station, theres is a
requirement that your plastic container be "on the ground" to eliminate
static spark, which WILL ignite the vapors.
Factoid...
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger & Lina Hill
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:34 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Jeff;
Fuel is typically ignited, after a crash from a small plane, because
it drips on the hot exhaust pipes, which are about 1000 degrees near the
engine.
Electrical power from a 12 volt aircraft system is protected by a
fuse, for wing tanks pumps, it is typically 5 amps. If the fuel pump
hot wire was to ground, a tiny and cool spark would result, and be gone
in about 50 msec as the fuse blows from the overload (assuming you have
installed the correct fuses for your pump). It's a bit complicated, but
basically the number of electrons that can jump through the air with 12
Volts source applied simply don't have enough energy (I.E. heat)
associated with them to ignite gasoline. When you see hot sparks from a
12 volts source being grounded, your actually seeing the conductive
material melting and becoming incandescent because the current is
applied for to long. The job of your aircraft fusing is to prevent the
flow of electricity from becoming so great so as to heat the conductive
material to this degree, I.E, the fuse will blow first before over
heating of the conductive metal occurs and creates sparks hot enough to
ignite fuel. However, an unfused direct link from the battery has enough
amps to heat metal to such a degree that it would ignite fuel vapor.
Even then, the grounding of the battery would still need to be continues
enough to heat contact metals to the combustion temperature of gasoline
vapor (But of course you properly fuse all of your wires going to the
wings, don't you?)
Clear as mud?
Hope this helps
Roger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:09 PM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Roger
I respect your opinion but must strongly disagree, Gas fumes will
ignite with the slightest spark otherwise the biggest risk from a
survivable crash wouldn't be fire.
Jeff
Jeff;
I don't think it's possible to create a spark with enough energy to
ignite fuel with less than 28 volts DC, let along 12 volts. 24 VDC is
referred to as intrinsically safe in the instrumentation industry, they
use 24VDC instruments in grain elevators which are know to blowup, so I
don't see that anyone should worry about running 12 VDC in their wing
and possibly causing a fire in a landing accident.
Roger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:23 PM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
That's why it's a bad idea to put the pumps in the wing next to the
tanks 12 V next to the fuel tanks don't sound that great to me and in an
accident it would most likely break the wires and cause a spark.
On all the planes I have built the ONLY flexible lines on the whole
aircraft are the fuel line from the firewall to the carb. and the brake
lines inside the cabin.
Jeff Garrett
Louisville Ky.
601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90%
601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs
601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs
www.aeroliteproducts.com
www.project601xl.com
www.aerolite.camstreams.com
John
Let me add a thought. This came up on the RV list several years
ago and someone offered the opinion that the metal lines are more likly
to break in an accident. Maybe?
Carroll
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and
Yahoo Mail. Try it now.
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump |
I wasn't going to even reply to his last post. But now he will say that a
static spark has over 10,000 volts and that's why it can ignite fumes. But
from
what I remember as a kid a spark is a spark is a spark when it comes to gas
fumes but he has it (clear as mud) I think that's why they put blowers in
marine engine compartments. (Because any spark can ignite the fumes)
BTW Roger read this:
Grain Dust Explosion Elements
For a grain dust explosion to occur, four basic physical
elements must be present:
1.fuel =93 very small particles of dry grain dust from wheat,
milo, oats, barley, wheat or oat flour, corn starch, etc.
Grain dust must be suspended in the air to create an
explosion, but layers of dust in confined space provide
explosive potential.
2. oxygen =93 adequate air supply with normal oxygen
levels.
3. confinement =93 a vertical elevator leg casing or housing,
an enclosed drag conveyor, a dust bin, a down spout, an
aeration duct, a basement tunnel, a bin deck gallery, a
bin, a silo, etc.
4. ignition source =93 an overheated bearing in an elevator
leg boot, head or conveyor; an elevator leg belt rubbing
against leg sidewall casing; an electrical arc from a nonexplosion
proof electrical device; an electrical short;
phosphine pellets or tablets exploding in a wet aeration
duct; static electricity; a cigarette lighter or lit cigarette;
a cutting torch; metal sparks from a grinder; metal to
metal sparks; a dropped tool; lightning, etc.
Additionally, low relative humidity weather con
In other words Roger the controls you site in your post are explosion proof
.
And : (intrinsically safe) in your context basically means it won't shock a
human being
Now it's clear as mud
Jeff
There was a very good video a few years ago showing a float plane pilot
fueling his airplane using plastic gas cans.
The static caused from the plastic can set off the vapors and the result wa
s
a disaster...
When fueling a plastic gas can at the local gas station, theres is a
requirement that your plastic container be "on the ground" to eliminate sta
tic
spark, which WILL ignite the vapors.
Factoid...
----- Original Message -----
From: _Roger & Lina Hill_ (mailto:hills@sunflower.com)
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:34 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Jeff;
Fuel is typically ignited, after a crash from a small plane, because it
drips on the hot exhaust pipes, which are about 1000 degrees near the engi
ne.
Electrical power from a 12 volt aircraft system is protected by a fuse, for
wing tanks pumps, it is typically 5 amps. If the fuel pump hot wire was to
ground, a tiny and cool spark would result, and be gone in about 50 msec as
the fuse blows from the overload (assuming you have installed the correct f
uses
for your pump). It=99s a bit complicated, but basically the number of
electrons that can jump through the air with 12 Volts source applied simply
don=99t
have enough energy (I.E. heat) associated with them to ignite gasoline. W
hen
you see hot sparks from a 12 volts source being grounded, your actually see
ing
the conductive material melting and becoming incandescent because the
current is applied for to long. The job of your aircraft fusing is to prev
ent the
flow of electricity from becoming so great so as to heat the conductive
material to this degree, I.E, the fuse will blow first before over heating
of the
conductive metal occurs and creates sparks hot enough to ignite fuel.
However, an unfused direct link from the battery has enough amps to heat me
tal to
such a degree that it would ignite fuel vapor. Even then, the grounding of
the
battery would still need to be continues enough to heat contact metals to t
he
combustion temperature of gasoline vapor (But of course you properly fuse
all of your wires going to the wings, don=99t you?)
Clear as mud?
Hope this helps
Roger
____________________________________
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol.
com
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Roger
I respect your opinion but must strongly disagree, Gas fumes will ignite
with the slightest spark otherwise the biggest risk from a survivable crash
wouldn't be fire.
Jeff
Jeff;
I don=99t think it=99s possible to create a spark with enough e
nergy to ignite
fuel with less than 28 volts DC, let along 12 volts. 24 VDC is referred to
as
intrinsically safe in the instrumentation industry, they use 24VDC
instruments in grain elevators which are know to blowup, so I don=99t
see that anyone
should worry about running 12 VDC in their wing and possibly causing a fire
in
a landing accident.
Roger
____________________________________
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc@aol
.com
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
That's why it's a bad idea to put the pumps in the wing next to the tanks 1
2
V next to the fuel tanks don't sound that great to me and in an accident it
would most likely break the wires and cause a spark.
On all the planes I have built the ONLY flexible lines on the whole aircraf
t
are the fuel line from the firewall to the carb. and the brake lines inside
the cabin.
Jeff Garrett
Louisville Ky.
601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90%
601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs
601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs
_www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/)
_www.project601xl.com_ (http://www.project601xl.com/)
_www.aerolite.camstreams.com_ (http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/)
John
Let me add a thought. This came up on the RV list several years ago and
someone offered the opinion that the metal lines are more likly to break in
an
accident. Maybe?
Carroll
**************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: flap alignment |
Gary,
Although it has been about 3 1/2 years, since I fitted my flaps, I recall I
also had a slight flap split. I built to the 6W1 02/03 revision which only
had a single 0.025 in hole in the 6W1-3 nylon control plate. I removed the
existing -3 plate on one of the flaps and made a new plate (I think I had to
make two to get it just right) with the 0.025 in. hole relocated so to align
with the other flap's position. I reinstalled the plate picking up the
existing fastener locations (although I had installed a doubler plate in the
area while building to give better load distribution). If you are building
to the latest drawings, which had a 0.025 in.
x 15mm slot, vice a hole, to pick up the flap actuator control arm "rod", I
would think revising the slot as required in a new 6W1-3 control plate would
work, but recommend check with Zenith.
Tony Graziano
XL/Jab; N493TG; 456 hrs
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Thomas" <garythomas8708@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 7:22 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: flap alignment
>
> I got to put my flaps on the plane the other day. The plans say that
> there should be a 6mm gap between the top of the flap and the rear wing
> spar. I can see using a straight edge that this gap gets the flap nice
> and lined up with the wing.
>
> The problem - after a lot of care in lining up all the components, I still
> don't have the two flaps level. The best I can get is to have one of them
> off by 4mm and the other off by 8mm.
>
> Has anyone else been through this or talked to Zenith? I'm not sure how
> close is good enough. Would hate to go corkscrewing through the sky on
> the first flight
>
> Gary
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump |
A static charge can build up to several thousand volts before it
discharges, definitely enough to ignite gasoline vapor under certain
conditions. There have been several incidents with automobiles. The
risk is greatest when the air is very dry because that allows the
static charge to build up to higher voltages before it will discharge.
On Dec 31, 2008, at 10:27 AM, steve wrote:
> There was a very good video a few years ago showing a float plane
> pilot fueling his airplane using plastic gas cans.
> The static caused from the plastic can set off the vapors and the
> result was a disaster...
> When fueling a plastic gas can at the local gas station, theres is a
> requirement that your plastic container be "on the ground" to
> eliminate static spark, which WILL ignite the vapors.
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 10
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I thought I'd pass on a great little application I found yesterday. It's named TrackMe and can be found at http://www.luisespinosa.com/trackme_eng.html. It uses your cell phone to send coordinates to a webserver so your position can be tracked in real time from Google Earth or from Google Maps.
After reading about a guy who wrote his own program that does this I began looking
for something similar. There are several fee based applications, gpsgates
Buddy Tracker being one of the better low cost options based on what I've read.
However TrackMe is free and can use your own server if you don't want to use his.
I've only played with this a little so I don't know how well it will work in
flight but it certainly looks promising.
This interested me because family can monitor my position either live or from the
saved data on the server and if something happened I wouldn't be relying on
just the ELT. Might have been good for Steve Fossett to have.
Just passing it on for what it's worth. Have a happy New Years
--------
Rich Whittington
Tullahoma, TN
Zenith 601HDS Under Construction
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221939#221939
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: GPS Tracking |
Sounds like it would work well as long as you travel in areas that
have cell phone service. There are a lot of areas where cell phone
service is unavailable though.
On Dec 31, 2008, at 11:22 AM, Wingrider wrote:
>
> I thought I'd pass on a great little application I found yesterday.
> It's named TrackMe and can be found at http://www.luisespinosa.com/trackme_eng.html
> . It uses your cell phone to send coordinates to a webserver so your
> position can be tracked in real time from Google Earth or from
> Google Maps.
>
> This interested me because family can monitor my position either
> live or from the saved data on the server and if something happened
> I wouldn't be relying on just the ELT. Might have been good for
> Steve Fossett to have.
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: GPS Tracking |
Another "free" solution to GPS tracking is the Automatic Position Reporting
System (APRS) which relies on ham repeater stations that are spread across
the country. See, e.g.,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canard-aviators/message/47541
APRS coverage is apparently excellent, and hardware cost is low. You need
the lowest level ham license to use APRS. Equipment cost is 2 or 3 hundred
bucks, but there is no monthly charge as with SPOT.
Terry
At 11:32 AM 12/31/2008 -0500, you wrote:
>Sounds like it would work well as long as you travel in areas that
>have cell phone service. There are a lot of areas where cell phone
>service is unavailable though.
>
>On Dec 31, 2008, at 11:22 AM, Wingrider wrote:
>
>>
>>I thought I'd pass on a great little application I found yesterday.
>>It's named TrackMe and can be found at
>>http://www.luisespinosa.com/trackme_eng.html . It uses your cell phone to
>>send coordinates to a webserver so your
>>position can be tracked in real time from Google Earth or from
>>Google Maps.
>>
>>This interested me because family can monitor my position either
>>live or from the saved data on the server and if something happened
>>I wouldn't be relying on just the ELT. Might have been good for
>>Steve Fossett to have.
>
>
>Terry Phillips ZBAGer
>ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
>Corvallis MT
>601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
>are done; working on the wings
>http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump |
Again this year just as last and the years before: There are faux
experts on these websites.
Some dont know...
Some dont even fly aircraft. They come on these sites because of the
"wana be" syndrome.
Read everything and divide by two....
S.
----- Original Message -----
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
I wasn't going to even reply to his last post. But now he will say
that a static spark has over 10,000 volts and that's why it can ignite
fumes. But from what I remember as a kid a spark is a spark is a spark
when it comes to gas fumes but he has it (clear as mud) I think that's
why they put blowers in marine engine compartments. (Because any spark
can ignite the fumes)
BTW Roger read this:
Grain Dust Explosion Elements
For a grain dust explosion to occur, four basic physical
elements must be present:
1.fuel =93 very small particles of dry grain dust from wheat,
milo, oats, barley, wheat or oat flour, corn starch, etc.
Grain dust must be suspended in the air to create an
explosion, but layers of dust in confined space provide
explosive potential.
2. oxygen =93 adequate air supply with normal oxygen
levels.
3. confinement =93 a vertical elevator leg casing or housing,
an enclosed drag conveyor, a dust bin, a down spout, an
aeration duct, a basement tunnel, a bin deck gallery, a
bin, a silo, etc.
4. ignition source =93 an overheated bearing in an elevator
leg boot, head or conveyor; an elevator leg belt rubbing
against leg sidewall casing; an electrical arc from a nonexplosion
proof electrical device; an electrical short;
phosphine pellets or tablets exploding in a wet aeration
duct; static electricity; a cigarette lighter or lit cigarette;
a cutting torch; metal sparks from a grinder; metal to
metal sparks; a dropped tool; lightning, etc.
Additionally, low relative humidity weather con
In other words Roger the controls you site in your post are explosion
proof.
And : (intrinsically safe) in your context basically means it won't
shock a human being
Now it's clear as mud
Jeff
There was a very good video a few years ago showing a float plane
pilot fueling his airplane using plastic gas cans.
The static caused from the plastic can set off the vapors and the
result was a disaster...
When fueling a plastic gas can at the local gas station, theres is a
requirement that your plastic container be "on the ground" to eliminate
static spark, which WILL ignite the vapors.
Factoid...
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger & Lina Hill
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:34 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Jeff;
Fuel is typically ignited, after a crash from a small plane,
because it drips on the hot exhaust pipes, which are about 1000 degrees
near the engine.
Electrical power from a 12 volt aircraft system is protected by a
fuse, for wing tanks pumps, it is typically 5 amps. If the fuel pump
hot wire was to ground, a tiny and cool spark would result, and be gone
in about 50 msec as the fuse blows from the overload (assuming you have
installed the correct fuses for your pump). It=99s a bit
complicated, but basically the number of electrons that can jump through
the air with 12 Volts source applied simply don=99t have enough
energy (I.E. heat) associated with them to ignite gasoline. When you
see hot sparks from a 12 volts source being grounded, your actually
seeing the conductive material melting and becoming incandescent because
the current is applied for to long. The job of your aircraft fusing is
to prevent the flow of electricity from becoming so great so as to heat
the conductive material to this degree, I.E, the fuse will blow first
before over heating of the conductive metal occurs and creates sparks
hot enough to ignite fuel. However, an unfused direct link from the
battery has enough amps to heat metal to such a degree that it would
ignite fuel vapor. Even then, the grounding of the battery would still
need to be continues enough to heat contact metals to the combustion
temperature of gasoline vapor (But of course you properly fuse all of
your wires going to the wings, don=99t you?)
Clear as mud?
Hope this helps
Roger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:09 PM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Roger
I respect your opinion but must strongly disagree, Gas fumes will
ignite with the slightest spark otherwise the biggest risk from a
survivable crash wouldn't be fire.
Jeff
Jeff;
I don=99t think it=99s possible to create a spark
with enough energy to ignite fuel with less than 28 volts DC, let along
12 volts. 24 VDC is referred to as intrinsically safe in the
instrumentation industry, they use 24VDC instruments in grain elevators
which are know to blowup, so I don=99t see that anyone should
worry about running 12 VDC in their wing and possibly causing a fire in
a landing accident.
Roger
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:23 PM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
That's why it's a bad idea to put the pumps in the wing next to
the tanks 12 V next to the fuel tanks don't sound that great to me and
in an accident it would most likely break the wires and cause a spark.
On all the planes I have built the ONLY flexible lines on the
whole aircraft are the fuel line from the firewall to the carb. and the
brake lines inside the cabin.
Jeff Garrett
Louisville Ky.
601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90%
601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs
601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs
www.aeroliteproducts.com
www.project601xl.com
www.aerolite.camstreams.com
John
Let me add a thought. This came up on the RV list several
years ago and someone offered the opinion that the metal lines are more
likly to break in an accident. Maybe?
Carroll
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
New year...new news. Be tholcom00000026">headlines.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump |
In a message dated 12/31/2008 12:38:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
hills@sunflower.com writes:
Electrical power from a 12 volt aircraft system is protected by a fuse, for
wing tanks pumps, it is typically 5 amps. If the fuel pump hot wire was to
ground, a tiny and cool spark would result, and be gone in about 50 msec as
the fuse blows from the overload (assuming you have installed the correct f
uses
for your pump). It=99s a bit complicated, but basically the number of
electrons that can jump through the air with 12 Volts source applied simply
don=99t
have enough energy (I.E. heat) associated with them to ignite gasoline
I'm not saying it will, or will not ignite, but all this talk has
given me the urge to set up a test experiment to see for myself. I'll let
you
know the results ifin I dont git kilt.
Flydog at
Mythbusters Lab
**************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump |
I was looking on u tube but I was thinking the same thing but the fact we
are both worried about getting kilt should tell us both something huh.....LOL
This is one of those hey ya'll watch this.... I can top that moments.
Jeff
**************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making
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| Subject: | Re: GPS Tracking |
But doesn't APRS require an HAM lic.?
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221966#221966
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: GPS Tracking |
I've been reading up on APRS and believe this is the way to go. TrackMe is completely
free if you have a gps enabled phone and a data plan but you are relying
on cell phone coverage which will diminish with altitude.
For roughly $300 I believe you can have a reliable APRS package. I'm still researching.
--------
Rich Whittington
Tullahoma, TN
Zenith 601HDS Under Construction
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221978#221978
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump |
OK, Roger, I believe you, but if it's OK with you, I'll just stand over
there. Way over there. I've also been told that a lit cigarette just in
your fingers, isn't actually hot enough to ignite gasoline fumes. But
for religious reasons (I am a high priest of devout cowardice) I'd like
to avoid any juxtaposition of thermal energy and flammables. "I would
rather be safe a hundred times than die once."-------Mark Twain
Paul Rodriguez
----- Original Message -----
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com<mailto:Afterfxllc@aol.com>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
I wasn't going to even reply to his last post. But now he will say
that a static spark has over 10,000 volts and that's why it can ignite
fumes. But from what I remember as a kid a spark is a spark is a spark
when it comes to gas fumes but he has it (clear as mud) I think that's
why they put blowers in marine engine compartments. (Because any spark
can ignite the fumes)
BTW Roger read this:
Grain Dust Explosion Elements
For a grain dust explosion to occur, four basic physical
elements must be present:
1.fuel =93 very small particles of dry grain dust from wheat,
milo, oats, barley, wheat or oat flour, corn starch, etc.
Grain dust must be suspended in the air to create an
explosion, but layers of dust in confined space provide
explosive potential.
2. oxygen =93 adequate air supply with normal oxygen
levels.
3. confinement =93 a vertical elevator leg casing or housing,
an enclosed drag conveyor, a dust bin, a down spout, an
aeration duct, a basement tunnel, a bin deck gallery, a
bin, a silo, etc.
4. ignition source =93 an overheated bearing in an elevator
leg boot, head or conveyor; an elevator leg belt rubbing
against leg sidewall casing; an electrical arc from a nonexplosion
proof electrical device; an electrical short;
phosphine pellets or tablets exploding in a wet aeration
duct; static electricity; a cigarette lighter or lit cigarette;
a cutting torch; metal sparks from a grinder; metal to
metal sparks; a dropped tool; lightning, etc.
Additionally, low relative humidity weather con
In other words Roger the controls you site in your post are explosion
proof.
And : (intrinsically safe) in your context basically means it won't
shock a human being
Now it's clear as mud
Jeff
There was a very good video a few years ago showing a float plane
pilot fueling his airplane using plastic gas cans.
The static caused from the plastic can set off the vapors and the
result was a disaster...
When fueling a plastic gas can at the local gas station, theres is a
requirement that your plastic container be "on the ground" to eliminate
static spark, which WILL ignite the vapors.
Factoid...
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger & Lina Hill<mailto:hills@sunflower.com>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:34 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Jeff;
Fuel is typically ignited, after a crash from a small plane,
because it drips on the hot exhaust pipes, which are about 1000 degrees
near the engine.
Electrical power from a 12 volt aircraft system is protected by a
fuse, for wing tanks pumps, it is typically 5 amps. If the fuel pump
hot wire was to ground, a tiny and cool spark would result, and be gone
in about 50 msec as the fuse blows from the overload (assuming you have
installed the correct fuses for your pump). It=99s a bit
complicated, but basically the number of electrons that can jump through
the air with 12 Volts source applied simply don=99t have enough
energy (I.E. heat) associated with them to ignite gasoline. When you
see hot sparks from a 12 volts source being grounded, your actually
seeing the conductive material melting and becoming incandescent because
the current is applied for to long. The job of your aircraft fusing is
to prevent the flow of electricity from becoming so great so as to heat
the conductive material to this degree, I.E, the fuse will blow first
before over heating of the conductive metal occurs and creates sparks
hot enough to ignite fuel. However, an unfused direct link from the
battery has enough amps to heat metal to such a degree that it would
ignite fuel vapor. Even then, the grounding of the battery would still
need to be continues enough to heat contact metals to the combustion
temperature of gasoline vapor (But of course you properly fuse all of
your wires going to the wings, don=99t you?)
Clear as mud?
Hope this helps
Roger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:09 PM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Roger
I respect your opinion but must strongly disagree, Gas fumes will
ignite with the slightest spark otherwise the biggest risk from a
survivable crash wouldn't be fire.
Jeff
Jeff;
I don=99t think it=99s possible to create a spark
with enough energy to ignite fuel with less than 28 volts DC, let along
12 volts. 24 VDC is referred to as intrinsically safe in the
instrumentation industry, they use 24VDC instruments in grain elevators
which are know to blowup, so I don=99t see that anyone should
worry about running 12 VDC in their wing and possibly causing a fire in
a landing accident.
Roger
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:23 PM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
That's why it's a bad idea to put the pumps in the wing next to
the tanks 12 V next to the fuel tanks don't sound that great to me and
in an accident it would most likely break the wires and cause a spark.
On all the planes I have built the ONLY flexible lines on the
whole aircraft are the fuel line from the firewall to the carb. and the
brake lines inside the cabin.
Jeff Garrett
Louisville Ky.
601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90%
601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs
601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs
www.aeroliteproducts.com<http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/>
www.project601xl.com<http://www.project601xl.com/>
www.aerolite.camstreams.com<http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/>
John
Let me add a thought. This came up on the RV list several
years ago and someone offered the opinion that the metal lines are more
likly to break in an accident. Maybe?
Carroll
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
New year...new news. Be tholcom00000026">headlines.
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Zenith-List>
Message 19
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Here is a good article about installing an APRS node in an RV-6:
http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/tracker.htm
The Ham license basically requires studying for, and taking a test. The is
no Morse code requirement.
-- Craig
Message 20
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| Subject: | 2 More fun videos :) |
For those who are interested; I just posted two more videos.
The first one is of how we resurface the Head gasket area on the Corvair heads.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xptR8V9T1NM
The second one is cutting out a rear starter bracket for our MagVair conversion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHNyFiEOZV4
I'm not really addicted to Joe Satriani; I just like instrumentals.
I'll try to change it up a bit in the future.
Enjoy :)
Happy New Year!
--------
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222022#222022
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump |
Good idea, but don't forget to record it, just in case it ends up qualifying
for Americas funnies videos !!!!!
A few ccs of avgas, shaken in a plastic pop bottle, should be all you
need,,,, include an alternate spark source just to verify that the fuel air
mixture is ignitable.
(not that I am condoning this test of course..)
Roger
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Flydog1966@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
In a message dated 12/31/2008 12:38:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
hills@sunflower.com writes:
Electrical power from a 12 volt aircraft system is protected by a fuse, for
wing tanks pumps, it is typically 5 amps. If the fuel pump hot wire was to
ground, a tiny and cool spark would result, and be gone in about 50 msec as
the fuse blows from the overload (assuming you have installed the correct
fuses for your pump). It's a bit complicated, but basically the number of
electrons that can jump through the air with 12 Volts source applied simply
don't have enough energy (I.E. heat) associated with them to ignite
gasoline
I'm not saying it will, or will not ignite, but all this talk has
given me the urge to set up a test experiment to see for myself. I'll let
you know the results ifin I dont git kilt.
Flydog at
Mythbusters Lab
_____
New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump |
I think it was in Kit planes last month, some poor fellow burned his fabric
covered plane just by cleaning it. Apparently, rubbing caused a hot enough
static spark to start the old fabric a burning,,,, heartbreaking, but
something to learn from.
Roger
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
I wasn't going to even reply to his last post. But now he will say that a
static spark has over 10,000 volts and that's why it can ignite fumes. But
from what I remember as a kid a spark is a spark is a spark when it comes to
gas fumes but he has it (clear as mud) I think that's why they put blowers
in marine engine compartments. (Because any spark can ignite the fumes)
BTW Roger read this:
Grain Dust Explosion Elements
For a grain dust explosion to occur, four basic physical
elements must be present:
1.fuel - very small particles of dry grain dust from wheat,
milo, oats, barley, wheat or oat flour, corn starch, etc.
Grain dust must be suspended in the air to create an
explosion, but layers of dust in confined space provide
explosive potential.
2. oxygen - adequate air supply with normal oxygen
levels.
3. confinement - a vertical elevator leg casing or housing,
an enclosed drag conveyor, a dust bin, a down spout, an
aeration duct, a basement tunnel, a bin deck gallery, a
bin, a silo, etc.
4. ignition source - an overheated bearing in an elevator
leg boot, head or conveyor; an elevator leg belt rubbing
against leg sidewall casing; an electrical arc from a nonexplosion
proof electrical device; an electrical short;
phosphine pellets or tablets exploding in a wet aeration
duct; static electricity; a cigarette lighter or lit cigarette;
a cutting torch; metal sparks from a grinder; metal to
metal sparks; a dropped tool; lightning, etc.
Additionally, low relative humidity weather con
In other words Roger the controls you site in your post are explosion proof.
And : (intrinsically safe) in your context basically means it won't shock a
human being
Now it's clear as mud
Jeff
There was a very good video a few years ago showing a float plane pilot
fueling his airplane using plastic gas cans.
The static caused from the plastic can set off the vapors and the result was
a disaster...
When fueling a plastic gas can at the local gas station, theres is a
requirement that your plastic container be "on the ground" to eliminate
static spark, which WILL ignite the vapors.
Factoid...
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger <mailto:hills@sunflower.com> & Lina Hill
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:34 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Jeff;
Fuel is typically ignited, after a crash from a small plane, because it
drips on the hot exhaust pipes, which are about 1000 degrees near the
engine.
Electrical power from a 12 volt aircraft system is protected by a fuse, for
wing tanks pumps, it is typically 5 amps. If the fuel pump hot wire was to
ground, a tiny and cool spark would result, and be gone in about 50 msec as
the fuse blows from the overload (assuming you have installed the correct
fuses for your pump). It's a bit complicated, but basically the number of
electrons that can jump through the air with 12 Volts source applied simply
don't have enough energy (I.E. heat) associated with them to ignite
gasoline. When you see hot sparks from a 12 volts source being grounded,
your actually seeing the conductive material melting and becoming
incandescent because the current is applied for to long. The job of your
aircraft fusing is to prevent the flow of electricity from becoming so great
so as to heat the conductive material to this degree, I.E, the fuse will
blow first before over heating of the conductive metal occurs and creates
sparks hot enough to ignite fuel. However, an unfused direct link from the
battery has enough amps to heat metal to such a degree that it would ignite
fuel vapor. Even then, the grounding of the battery would still need to be
continues enough to heat contact metals to the combustion temperature of
gasoline vapor (But of course you properly fuse all of your wires going to
the wings, don't you?)
Clear as mud?
Hope this helps
Roger
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Roger
I respect your opinion but must strongly disagree, Gas fumes will ignite
with the slightest spark otherwise the biggest risk from a survivable crash
wouldn't be fire.
Jeff
Jeff;
I don't think it's possible to create a spark with enough energy to ignite
fuel with less than 28 volts DC, let along 12 volts. 24 VDC is referred to
as intrinsically safe in the instrumentation industry, they use 24VDC
instruments in grain elevators which are know to blowup, so I don't see that
anyone should worry about running 12 VDC in their wing and possibly causing
a fire in a landing accident.
Roger
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
That's why it's a bad idea to put the pumps in the wing next to the tanks 12
V next to the fuel tanks don't sound that great to me and in an accident it
would most likely break the wires and cause a spark.
On all the planes I have built the ONLY flexible lines on the whole aircraft
are the fuel line from the firewall to the carb. and the brake lines inside
the cabin.
Jeff Garrett
Louisville Ky.
601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90%
601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs
601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs
www.aeroliteproducts.com <http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/>
www.project601xl.com <http://www.project601xl.com/>
www.aerolite.camstreams.com <http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/>
John
Let me add a thought. This came up on the RV list several years ago and
someone offered the opinion that the metal lines are more likly to break in
an accident. Maybe?
Carroll
_____
New year...new news. Be tholcom00000026">headlines.
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump |
Speaking of high voltage, if you put strobes in your plane, get the kind
that have the power supply near the wing tip and only run 12vdc through the
wing. My plane does not, and instead has 600vdc from the strobe power supply
running through the wing to the tip stobe. I won't tell you how I found
this out, but I was just glad nobody was around when I stuck my volt meter
leads through the wire insulation..... :-)
Roger
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
paulrod36@msn.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
OK, Roger, I believe you, but if it's OK with you, I'll just stand over
there. Way over there. I've also been told that a lit cigarette just in
your fingers, isn't actually hot enough to ignite gasoline fumes. But for
religious reasons (I am a high priest of devout cowardice) I'd like to avoid
any juxtaposition of thermal energy and flammables. "I would rather be
safe a hundred times than die once."-------Mark Twain
Paul Rodriguez
----- Original Message -----
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
I wasn't going to even reply to his last post. But now he will say that a
static spark has over 10,000 volts and that's why it can ignite fumes. But
from what I remember as a kid a spark is a spark is a spark when it comes to
gas fumes but he has it (clear as mud) I think that's why they put blowers
in marine engine compartments. (Because any spark can ignite the fumes)
BTW Roger read this:
Grain Dust Explosion Elements
For a grain dust explosion to occur, four basic physical
elements must be present:
1.fuel - very small particles of dry grain dust from wheat,
milo, oats, barley, wheat or oat flour, corn starch, etc.
Grain dust must be suspended in the air to create an
explosion, but layers of dust in confined space provide
explosive potential.
2. oxygen - adequate air supply with normal oxygen
levels.
3. confinement - a vertical elevator leg casing or housing,
an enclosed drag conveyor, a dust bin, a down spout, an
aeration duct, a basement tunnel, a bin deck gallery, a
bin, a silo, etc.
4. ignition source - an overheated bearing in an elevator
leg boot, head or conveyor; an elevator leg belt rubbing
against leg sidewall casing; an electrical arc from a nonexplosion
proof electrical device; an electrical short;
phosphine pellets or tablets exploding in a wet aeration
duct; static electricity; a cigarette lighter or lit cigarette;
a cutting torch; metal sparks from a grinder; metal to
metal sparks; a dropped tool; lightning, etc.
Additionally, low relative humidity weather con
In other words Roger the controls you site in your post are explosion proof.
And : (intrinsically safe) in your context basically means it won't shock a
human being
Now it's clear as mud
Jeff
There was a very good video a few years ago showing a float plane pilot
fueling his airplane using plastic gas cans.
The static caused from the plastic can set off the vapors and the result was
a disaster...
When fueling a plastic gas can at the local gas station, theres is a
requirement that your plastic container be "on the ground" to eliminate
static spark, which WILL ignite the vapors.
Factoid...
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger <mailto:hills@sunflower.com> & Lina Hill
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:34 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Jeff;
Fuel is typically ignited, after a crash from a small plane, because it
drips on the hot exhaust pipes, which are about 1000 degrees near the
engine.
Electrical power from a 12 volt aircraft system is protected by a fuse, for
wing tanks pumps, it is typically 5 amps. If the fuel pump hot wire was to
ground, a tiny and cool spark would result, and be gone in about 50 msec as
the fuse blows from the overload (assuming you have installed the correct
fuses for your pump). It's a bit complicated, but basically the number of
electrons that can jump through the air with 12 Volts source applied simply
don't have enough energy (I.E. heat) associated with them to ignite
gasoline. When you see hot sparks from a 12 volts source being grounded,
your actually seeing the conductive material melting and becoming
incandescent because the current is applied for to long. The job of your
aircraft fusing is to prevent the flow of electricity from becoming so great
so as to heat the conductive material to this degree, I.E, the fuse will
blow first before over heating of the conductive metal occurs and creates
sparks hot enough to ignite fuel. However, an unfused direct link from the
battery has enough amps to heat metal to such a degree that it would ignite
fuel vapor. Even then, the grounding of the battery would still need to be
continues enough to heat contact metals to the combustion temperature of
gasoline vapor (But of course you properly fuse all of your wires going to
the wings, don't you?)
Clear as mud?
Hope this helps
Roger
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Roger
I respect your opinion but must strongly disagree, Gas fumes will ignite
with the slightest spark otherwise the biggest risk from a survivable crash
wouldn't be fire.
Jeff
Jeff;
I don't think it's possible to create a spark with enough energy to ignite
fuel with less than 28 volts DC, let along 12 volts. 24 VDC is referred to
as intrinsically safe in the instrumentation industry, they use 24VDC
instruments in grain elevators which are know to blowup, so I don't see that
anyone should worry about running 12 VDC in their wing and possibly causing
a fire in a landing accident.
Roger
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
That's why it's a bad idea to put the pumps in the wing next to the tanks 12
V next to the fuel tanks don't sound that great to me and in an accident it
would most likely break the wires and cause a spark.
On all the planes I have built the ONLY flexible lines on the whole aircraft
are the fuel line from the firewall to the carb. and the brake lines inside
the cabin.
Jeff Garrett
Louisville Ky.
601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90%
601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs
601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs
www.aeroliteproducts.com <http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/>
www.project601xl.com <http://www.project601xl.com/>
www.aerolite.camstreams.com <http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/>
John
Let me add a thought. This came up on the RV list several years ago and
someone offered the opinion that the metal lines are more likly to break in
an accident. Maybe?
Carroll
_____
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Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump |
Ya, in case you didn't guess, I designed electrical control systems for
grain elevators and even controls for a rocket fuel plant some years back
(talk about paranoid, I'm surprised they didn't limit us to 3 vdc in that
place,,,,
Roger
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
I wasn't going to even reply to his last post. But now he will say that a
static spark has over 10,000 volts and that's why it can ignite fumes. But
from what I remember as a kid a spark is a spark is a spark when it comes to
gas fumes but he has it (clear as mud) I think that's why they put blowers
in marine engine compartments. (Because any spark can ignite the fumes)
BTW Roger read this:
Grain Dust Explosion Elements
For a grain dust explosion to occur, four basic physical
elements must be present:
1.fuel - very small particles of dry grain dust from wheat,
milo, oats, barley, wheat or oat flour, corn starch, etc.
Grain dust must be suspended in the air to create an
explosion, but layers of dust in confined space provide
explosive potential.
2. oxygen - adequate air supply with normal oxygen
levels.
3. confinement - a vertical elevator leg casing or housing,
an enclosed drag conveyor, a dust bin, a down spout, an
aeration duct, a basement tunnel, a bin deck gallery, a
bin, a silo, etc.
4. ignition source - an overheated bearing in an elevator
leg boot, head or conveyor; an elevator leg belt rubbing
against leg sidewall casing; an electrical arc from a nonexplosion
proof electrical device; an electrical short;
phosphine pellets or tablets exploding in a wet aeration
duct; static electricity; a cigarette lighter or lit cigarette;
a cutting torch; metal sparks from a grinder; metal to
metal sparks; a dropped tool; lightning, etc.
Additionally, low relative humidity weather con
In other words Roger the controls you site in your post are explosion proof.
And : (intrinsically safe) in your context basically means it won't shock a
human being
Now it's clear as mud
Jeff
There was a very good video a few years ago showing a float plane pilot
fueling his airplane using plastic gas cans.
The static caused from the plastic can set off the vapors and the result was
a disaster...
When fueling a plastic gas can at the local gas station, theres is a
requirement that your plastic container be "on the ground" to eliminate
static spark, which WILL ignite the vapors.
Factoid...
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger <mailto:hills@sunflower.com> & Lina Hill
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:34 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Jeff;
Fuel is typically ignited, after a crash from a small plane, because it
drips on the hot exhaust pipes, which are about 1000 degrees near the
engine.
Electrical power from a 12 volt aircraft system is protected by a fuse, for
wing tanks pumps, it is typically 5 amps. If the fuel pump hot wire was to
ground, a tiny and cool spark would result, and be gone in about 50 msec as
the fuse blows from the overload (assuming you have installed the correct
fuses for your pump). It's a bit complicated, but basically the number of
electrons that can jump through the air with 12 Volts source applied simply
don't have enough energy (I.E. heat) associated with them to ignite
gasoline. When you see hot sparks from a 12 volts source being grounded,
your actually seeing the conductive material melting and becoming
incandescent because the current is applied for to long. The job of your
aircraft fusing is to prevent the flow of electricity from becoming so great
so as to heat the conductive material to this degree, I.E, the fuse will
blow first before over heating of the conductive metal occurs and creates
sparks hot enough to ignite fuel. However, an unfused direct link from the
battery has enough amps to heat metal to such a degree that it would ignite
fuel vapor. Even then, the grounding of the battery would still need to be
continues enough to heat contact metals to the combustion temperature of
gasoline vapor (But of course you properly fuse all of your wires going to
the wings, don't you?)
Clear as mud?
Hope this helps
Roger
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
Roger
I respect your opinion but must strongly disagree, Gas fumes will ignite
with the slightest spark otherwise the biggest risk from a survivable crash
wouldn't be fire.
Jeff
Jeff;
I don't think it's possible to create a spark with enough energy to ignite
fuel with less than 28 volts DC, let along 12 volts. 24 VDC is referred to
as intrinsically safe in the instrumentation industry, they use 24VDC
instruments in grain elevators which are know to blowup, so I don't see that
anyone should worry about running 12 VDC in their wing and possibly causing
a fire in a landing accident.
Roger
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel lines and fuel pump
That's why it's a bad idea to put the pumps in the wing next to the tanks 12
V next to the fuel tanks don't sound that great to me and in an accident it
would most likely break the wires and cause a spark.
On all the planes I have built the ONLY flexible lines on the whole aircraft
are the fuel line from the firewall to the carb. and the brake lines inside
the cabin.
Jeff Garrett
Louisville Ky.
601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90%
601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs
601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs
www.aeroliteproducts.com <http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/>
www.project601xl.com <http://www.project601xl.com/>
www.aerolite.camstreams.com <http://www.aerolite.camstreams.com/>
John
Let me add a thought. This came up on the RV list several years ago and
someone offered the opinion that the metal lines are more likly to break in
an accident. Maybe?
Carroll
_____
New year...new news. Be tholcom00000026">headlines.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: 2 More fun videos :) |
Makes me want to go to my shop, fire up the mill and make some chips....
.. <GGG>
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Brady" <brady@magnificentmachine.com> wrote:
>
For those who are interested; I just posted two more videos.
The first one is of how we resurface the Head gasket area on the Corvair
heads.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xptR8V9T1NM
The second one is cutting out a rear starter bracket for our MagVair con
version.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHNyFiEOZV4
I'm not really addicted to Joe Satriani; I just like instrumentals.
I'll try to change it up a bit in the future.
Enjoy :)
Happy New Year!
--------
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222022#222022
========================
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____________________________________________________________
Take a break - you deserve it. Click here to find a great vacation.
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/PnY6rx9bepKtIpLv56PxeWG3A
OSRgrhOfU9HZm4iWxjQ2aIfhro06/
Message 26
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BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net wrote:
> all
> i have Stainless Steel braided teflon lined fuel lines from the tanks to the
wing root with AN fittings just inside the cabin.. then aluminum
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
Do you have a picture? Or better yet hose/line lengths?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222086#222086
Message 27
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All-
1. The Zenith hand riveter won't last forever- mine died 30% of the
way into my project.
2. I spent about $10 on two ball mills (For A4s and A5s) from
McMaster Carr and use them to rough out the profile, then clean off the
rough edges with a ball bit in a Dremel. Worked for me.
3. If you're going to use both a hand riveter and pneumatic, make
sure the heads are interchangeable- saves lots of time.
do not archive
Bill Naumuk
Townville, Pa.
HDS 601MG/Corvair 95%
Message 28
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All-
What gauge is the radio tray made out of, .025 or .032? I figured
.040 for the radio side mounts.
Bill Naumuk
Townville, Pa.
HDS 601MG/Corvair 95%
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: 2 More fun videos :) |
That was exactly the affect I was hoping they would have!
:)
Get on it!
Make chips!
Make airplane parts! :)
--------
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222105#222105
Message 30
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Bill,
I don't know what you are calling a "radio tray".? If you are referring to the
wide channel that goes from the bottom center of the panel to the firewall, that
part does not show anywhere on my drawings. I don't even remember how I figured
out where it was supposed to go. I think it is .025" but I don't know for
sure.? As I recall I had to make a special connector to fasten it to the channel
on the firewall (see photos).
Jay in Dallas
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Naumuk <naumuk@alltel.net>
Sent: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 7:50 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: Radio Tray
All-
??? What gauge is the radio tray
made out of, .025 or .032? I figured .040 for the radio side
mounts.
Bill Naumuk
Townville, Pa.
HDS 601MG/Corvair
95%
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
Message 31
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The wide channel from the bottom of the instrument panel to the firewall is
6K2-1 in the *fuel system* section. It is made of 0.025"
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
jaybannist@cs.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Radio Tray
Bill,
I don't know what you are calling a "radio tray". If you are referring to
the wide channel that goes from the bottom center of the panel to the
firewall, that part does not show anywhere on my drawings. I don't even
remember how I figured out where it was supposed to go. I think it is .025"
but I don't know for sure. As I recall I had to make a special connector to
fasten it to the channel on the firewall (see photos).
Jay in Dallas
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Naumuk <naumuk@alltel.net>
Sent: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 7:50 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: Radio Tray
All-
What gauge is the radio tray made out of, .025 or .032? I figured .040
for the radio side mounts.
Bill Naumuk
Townville, Pa.
HDS 601MG/Corvair 95%
_____
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