---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 01/02/09: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:15 AM - Re: Canopy Latch (Darryl Legg) 2. 10:36 AM - XL V-speeds (Dr. Andrew Elliott) 3. 11:56 AM - Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions (Dave VanLanen) 4. 12:16 PM - Re: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions () 5. 12:33 PM - Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions (Sabrina) 6. 12:47 PM - Re: XL V-speeds (Juan Vega) 7. 02:21 PM - Re: Re: Canopy Latch (Tim Shankland) 8. 02:28 PM - Re: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions (Jon Croke) 9. 03:16 PM - 601xl (Darrell Haas) 10. 04:25 PM - Re: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions (Ronald Steele) 11. 06:44 PM - Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions (Sabrina) 12. 06:46 PM - Re: Re: Canopy Latch (burbby) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:15:58 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy Latch From: "Darryl Legg" Hi Gary, Attached are plans sent to me from Zenith, hope these help. Darryl. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222332#222332 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/650_canopy_latch_for_xl_125.pdf http://forums.matronics.com//files/650_canopy_latch_193.pdf ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:36:01 AM PST US From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" Subject: Zenith-List: XL V-speeds Gang: I have completed some testing on my 190 (3.1L) Corvair-powered XL taildragger and have some V-speed numbers to report. These were taken with the wheel pants on, but no intersection fairings. Tests were done around 4000' DA, at a weight near to 1120#. My plane has an empty weight of ~790#. It seems that the large, relatively thick wing gives very tightly grouped V-speeds more like a Cub than an RV. Note that the deck angles for V_x and V_y are quite high (> 20=B0) and uncomfortable to maintain. I tend to use 90-100 MIAS for normal operations climbs, which still gives plenty of climb rate. Note that response curves are also very tight, and the performance falls off very rapidly, even just a few MPH from these speeds, so airspeed control would be *very* important in an engine-out situation. Also note that control authority, and therefore also trim response, is very dependent on power setting at all airspeeds. It is not possible in my plane to trim off the elevator at low glide speeds with the power off, but the stick loads are light. It is possible to trim off the low climb speeds. Anyway here you are: V_md (minimum descent rate) = 68 MIAS V_bg (best glide ratio) = 70 MIAS V_x (best climb angle) = 72 MIAS V_y (best climb rate) = 74 MIAS FWIW, Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ N601GE,601XL/TD,Corvair ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:56:49 AM PST US From: "Dave VanLanen" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions Did I miss something? Is there some sort of bulletin recommending this change for the 601XL? I looked on the Zenith website and could not find anything, and I have the latest set of 601XL plans which do not show these gussets. Thanks, Dave Van Lanen Time: 11:00:22 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions From: "Sabrina" Anthony, >From your photos it looks like you have flex hinge ailerons not piano hinge ailerons, is this true? Attached is the Zenith drawing for the installation of the gussets. Does it match your drawings? I would contact Zenith before installing the gussets on a flex hinge. It was the piano hinge aileron design that was having the problems talked about in the paragraph above the drawings but the drawing shows a flex hinge installation. This could be a defensive move by Zenith. They can always point to the bulletin and say "See the drawing" this is what we recommended to be installed on all 601XL, and the service bulletin shows flex hinged ailerons. I don't know. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:16:56 PM PST US From: Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions These changes are on the 650 plans. People are talking about back fitting to the 601. Same wing, just a couple of different details. Ron -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions From: "Dave VanLanen" Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions Did I miss something? Is there some sort of bulletin recommending this change for the 601XL? I looked on the Zenith website and could not find anything, and I have the latest set of 601XL plans which do not show these gussets. Thanks, Dave Van Lanen Time: 11:00:22 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions From: "Sabrina" Anthony, >From your photos it looks like you have flex hinge ailerons not piano hinge ailerons, is this true? Attached is the Zenith drawing for the installation of the gussets. Does it match your drawings? I would contact Zenith before installing the gussets on a flex hinge. It was the piano hinge aileron design that was having the problems talked about in the paragraph above the drawings but the drawing shows a flex hinge installation. This could be a defensive move by Zenith. They can always point to the bulletin and say "See the drawing" this is what we recommended to be installed on all 601XL, and the service bulletin shows flex hinged ailerons. I don't know. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:33:30 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions From: "Sabrina" Ron, Do the 650 plans show the gussets on both the PH and flex hinge ailerons? Could you post the PH aileron gusset drawing? Did Zenith push any particular aileron type when you purchased your kit/plans? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222425#222425 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:47:34 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL V-speeds Dr. Elliott If in power off the plane should trim at best glide automatically at 70 mph. most planes will as mine does. IN an emergency you should be able to trim all the trimm to full up, and focus on correcting the problem. Are you saying yours does not trim to Vx or Vb? (should be the same) I have on mine with 750 lb empty weight, Vx 52 mph, Vy 71 mph. Vy equals Best glide. 71 mph. stall no flap is 48. Best glide should be 1.30x Vx or 52x1.30= 68 mph. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" >Sent: Jan 2, 2009 1:32 PM >To: Zenith-List Digest Server >Subject: Zenith-List: XL V-speeds > >Gang: > >I have completed some testing on my 190 (3.1L) Corvair-powered XL taildragger and have some V-speed numbers to report. These were taken with the wheel pants on, but no intersection fairings. Tests were done around 4000' DA, at a weight near to 1120#. My plane has an empty weight of ~790#. > >It seems that the large, relatively thick wing gives very tightly grouped V-speeds more like a Cub than an RV. Note that the deck angles for V_x and V_y are quite high (> 20) and uncomfortable to maintain. I tend to use 90-100 MIAS for normal operations climbs, which still gives plenty of climb rate. Note that response curves are also very tight, and the performance falls off very rapidly, even just a few MPH from these speeds, so airspeed control would be *very* important in an engine-out situation. > >Also note that control authority, and therefore also trim response, is very dependent on power setting at all airspeeds. It is not possible in my plane to trim off the elevator at low glide speeds with the power off, but the stick loads are light. It is possible to trim off the low climb speeds. Anyway here you are: > >V_md (minimum descent rate) = 68 MIAS >V_bg (best glide ratio) = 70 MIAS > >V_x (best climb angle) = 72 MIAS >V_y (best climb rate) = 74 MIAS > >FWIW, >Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ >N601GE,601XL/TD,Corvair ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:21:21 PM PST US From: Tim Shankland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy Latch I have my 601HD built and flying for the past two years, but I was interested in the new latching system. I made an XL type latch for my plane and have had excellent results with it. During the test phase before I determined the best way to guarantee latching twice I had the passenger side pop to the first latched position on one occasion I was able to reach over and pull the latch down on the other I just landed ( it came loose on takeoff) to secure it. I have some concerns with the new design. as I interpret it the two latches a fastened rigidly together so that it one latch is pushed back the other will follow. With this setup if one side comes loose and you attempt to latch it it will release the other side, not a good situation. I think a simple modification would fix this. Part 65C5-4 on each side should have one end slotted and there should be two springs one on each latch.. In this way the center lever will open both latches one one latch cannot force the other open. This is just my observation in that I have no intention changing my working system although I like not having the cable assemblies in the canopy. Tim Shankland 601HD N706TS Darryl Legg wrote: > >Hi Gary, >Attached are plans sent to me from Zenith, hope these help. >Darryl. > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222332#222332 > > >Attachments: > >http://forums.matronics.com//files/650_canopy_latch_for_xl_125.pdf >http://forums.matronics.com//files/650_canopy_latch_193.pdf > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:28:07 PM PST US From: "Jon Croke" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset QuestionsDave, The "bulletins" are published for download at www.zenair.org Also, they will be included in the next issue of the zenair newsletter (hardcopy being mailed in 2 weeks) along with some great DVD videos of more builders/pilots! Everybody: keep em coming! We all love to watch! Jon editor ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave VanLanen To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 1:55 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions Did I miss something? Is there some sort of bulletin recommending this change for the 601XL? I looked on the Zenith website and could not find anything, and I have the latest set of 601XL plans which do not show these gussets. Thanks, Dave Van Lanen ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:16:26 PM PST US From: "Darrell Haas" Subject: Zenith-List: 601xl The weather out west here has given a lot of builder time however, I unfortunately, need to postpone my building days and put my kit components for sale. Here is the list of things that I have: Zenith Price My price Fuselage kit - $4725.00 3550.00 Dual stick control option kit - $485.00 360.00 Tail kit $1495.00 minus $375 for rudder 840.00 Control kit $925.00 695.00 Zenith charged for Crating and handling $345.00 Free Drawings and Manual + Cd's 395.00 290.00 Metalworking with rudder workshop DVD 49.00 Free ________ Building your Zenith Fuselage Part 1 and 2 DVD 49.00 Free total $8,468.00 Total 5735.00 This price does not consider Zenith's handling and crating cost. Buyer will need to be responsible for shipping but I will crate up and deliver to your shipper for free.I would prefer to sell it all as one package and not split up the kits. Thank you, Darrell Haas ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:39 PM PST US From: Ronald Steele Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions The 650 plans are more-or-less like the 601 plans. The drawings show the hingeless version, with the hinged in the back on an "options" page. Gussets are shown on both pages. The hingeless are attached to the rear spar with A5/pitch 40 with A5/pitch 20 at the inboard end. I'd have to scan the drawings to post an image. Since Jon is going to include them in the news letter, hopefully folks can wait. My ailerons have have been build for months. I don't think I'll be drilling out the rivets to add the gussets. Also, someone mentioned a concern about the thickness of the gusset offsetting the skin (true enough) but this is not addressed in the drawings, so presumably it's not considered a problem. Ron On Jan 2, 2009, at 3:32 PM, Sabrina wrote: > > Ron, > > Do the 650 plans show the gussets on both the PH and flex hinge > ailerons? > > Could you post the PH aileron gusset drawing? > > Did Zenith push any particular aileron type when you purchased your > kit/plans? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222425#222425 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:59 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron Rib Gusset Questions From: "Sabrina" Ron, Zenith has not issued a bulletin showing the PH aileron gussets, just the flex hinge, so there is nothing more for Jon to post at this time. If you have time, please scan the particular PH drawing with the gussets attached, no need for all the other drawings on the plans page. Do you have PH or flex hinge ailerons? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222480#222480 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:07 PM PST US From: burbby Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy Latch Thanks Darryl for the information.- - Gary Bassham --- On Fri, 1/2/09, Darryl Legg wrote: From: Darryl Legg Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Canopy Latch Hi Gary, Attached are plans sent to me from Zenith, hope these help. Darryl. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222332#222332 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/650_canopy_latch_for_xl_125.pdf http://forums.matronics.com//files/650_canopy_latch_193.pdf =0A=0A=0A ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.