Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:31 AM - Re: Re: Grove nosewheel tube and tire assembly (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
2. 12:34 AM - Re: Re: Grove nosewheel tube and tire assembly (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
3. 06:19 AM - Re: Re: Grove nosewheel tube and tire assembly (steve)
4. 06:49 AM - Re: CH601 XL Aileron Push Rods. (Gig Giacona)
5. 06:49 AM - Re: Re: CH601 XL Aileron Push Rods. (Carlos Sa)
6. 07:30 AM - Re: Re: Grove nosewheel tube and tire assembly (Jay Maynard)
7. 08:23 AM - Aileron push rods - an engineering comment (Dr. Andrew Elliott)
8. 08:26 AM - Re: Re: CH601 XL Aileron Push Rods. (japhillipsga@aol.com)
9. 09:01 AM - Re: Aileron push rods - an engineering comment (japhillipsga@aol.com)
10. 09:01 AM - Re: Aileron push rods - an engineering comment (Gig Giacona)
11. 09:53 AM - Re: Re: Grove nosewheel tube and tire assembly (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
12. 02:38 PM - Re: Aileron push rods - an engineering comment ()
13. 08:28 PM - Re: Re: CH601 XL Aileron Push Rods. (ZodieRocket)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Grove nosewheel tube and tire assembly |
In a message dated 1/27/2009 9:55:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
flyguytilidie@aol.com writes:
The outside nut (closest to the valve stem cap) just tightens down to the
outside of the rim; I'm not sure if there is a recommended torque for this.
The other nut just gets tightened to the base of the tube. To be honest I'm
not sure if that base nut is necessary for this type of application but I'll
leave that up to you. The attached photo shows it being installed without the
base nut and rubber washer.
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
cemailfooterNO62)
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Grove nosewheel tube and tire assembly |
Jay
That picture jarred my memory...... you do add the lower nut and that helps
align the tube in the center of the rim hole and might help the tube if it
were to slip slightly on the rim.
Jeff
In a message dated 1/27/2009 9:55:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
flyguytilidie@aol.com writes:
The outside nut (closest to the valve stem cap) just tightens down to the
outside of the rim; I'm not sure if there is a recommended torque for this.
The other nut just gets tightened to the base of the tube. To be honest I'm
not sure if that base nut is necessary for this type of application but I'll
leave that up to you. The attached photo shows it being installed without the
base nut and rubber washer.
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
cemailfooterNO62)
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Grove nosewheel tube and tire assembly |
"Most" mechanics just throw the two nuts away....
----- Original Message -----
From: "FlyGuyTililDie" <flyguytilidie@aol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:47 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Grove nosewheel tube and tire assembly
> <flyguytilidie@aol.com>
>
> The outside nut (closest to the valve stem cap) just tightens down to the
> outside of the rim; I'm not sure if there is a recommended torque for
> this. The other nut just gets tightened to the base of the tube. To be
> honest I'm not sure if that base nut is necessary for this type of
> application but I'll leave that up to you. The attached photo shows it
> being installed without the base nut and rubber washer.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227269#227269
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/tube_install_995.jpg
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 XL Aileron Push Rods. |
Just to add to the many places that you can find Bill's fine work I have kind of
added it to my web site. At the moment there isn't a in site link to it but
it can be read or downloaded at the following address.
http://peoamerica.net/N601WR/Rods.pdf
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227325#227325
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 XL Aileron Push Rods. |
Bill, thanks for sharing the information with such detail.
Have you obtained ZAC's blessing for the modification?
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
do not archive
2009/1/27 <JAPhillipsGA@aol.com>
> Dave and Fellow 601 Builders & Flyers, I've sent and posted the Aileron
> Control Rod conversion saga about half a dozen places so far, but I don't
> really know where it'll end up for viewing and down load. Hopefully somebody
> who knows just the right localtion to place it for easy viewing will grab it
> up. When you see it and if your not too pissed off at me and you have any
> questions write me and I'll be happy to help. Best regards, Bill of Georgia
>
> ------------------------------
> From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date
> with the latest news <http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023>.
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Grove nosewheel tube and tire assembly |
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 07:01:03AM -0700, steve wrote:
> "Most" mechanics just throw the two nuts away....
That's more or less what I found when disassembling this one.
I called the folks at Grove, too; they said this was a common questio for
them, and they recommended throwing away all but the brass nut, screwing
that down on the stem, and using it to center the stem in the hole. We
fiddled with things for a bit, and tried that - and the stem centered itself
perfectly, with the nut dropping into the hole like it was made for it.
The stems on my main gear tires are also, I'm guessing, out of the center of
the hole, since they're twisted to one side. I'm not looking forward to
this, but I'll probably go ahead and remove those tires and remount them, as
well.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 7
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| Subject: | Aileron push rods - an engineering comment |
Folks:
Let me preface this comment with an anti-disclaimer: I *am* an
aerospace engineer and I *do* do analysis for a living.
OK, I applaud Bill Phillips for his innovative idea and professional
execution. This is the core value of experimental aviation. But I want
to raise a design issue I think is very important: When you change part
of a system, you have to consider whether you are going against the
designer's intent in other related parts.
The existing aileron control system is based on having tension loads in
all the cables. This pulls the aluminum aileron bellcranks firmly
against the steel hinge pins, creating a nice bearing surface that is
easily and properly lubricated with a drop of oil every 50 or 100 hours.
Further, the balanced tension loads plus the cable weight mean that the
lower "thrust" bearing surface between the bellcrank bearing blocks and
the aluminum bracket is evenly and very lightly loaded. Once again,
with regular simple lubrication, this should last a long time.
And with both bearing surfaces, light wear will not significantly effect
the operation
On the other hand, the pushrod is only attached to one side of the
bellcrank. This is not good for the bellcrank bearing, which is now
both *not* loaded radially *and* has to support a steady bending moment
(torque) about the span-wise axis. Both *NOT* conducive to long life
and not fixed by lubrication. Furthermore, the lower aluminum-aluminum
thrust bearing surface is also now loaded unevenly and will wear
steadily.
Even more, every bit of wear in this system makes the situation
progressively worse. This is not good design practice.
Of course, lots of aircraft use pushrods instead of cables, BUT they
also have bearings designed for those kinds of loads. So my "best"
recommendation would be to replace the simple bellcrank bearings with
more appropriate ones designed for this kind of loading, if you do the
pushrod modification.
My "alternate" recommendation would be to carefully inspect the
bellcrank bearings on a regular basis and as soon as you notice any
significant vertical free play in the pushrod end, replace the
bellcrank, brackets and bearing *using the more appropriate bearing*. I
would guess that every 25 hours would be a good interval and any more
than +/- 1mm vertical play would be enough to consider the maintenance
action.
FWIW,
Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
N601GE,601XL/TD,Corvair
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 XL Aileron Push Rods. |
Your welcome, Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: Carlos Sa <carlossa52@gmail.com>
Sent: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 9:34 am
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: CH601 XL Aileron Push Rods.
Bill, thanks for sharing the information with such detail.
Have you obtained ZAC's blessing for the modification?
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
do not archive
2009/1/27 <JAPhillipsGA@aol.com>
Dave and Fellow 601 Builders & Flyers, I've sent and posted the Aileron Control
Rod conversion saga about half a dozen places so far, but I don't really know
where it'll end up for viewing and down load. Hopefully somebody who knows just
the right localtion to place it for easy viewing will grab it up. When you
see it and if your not too pissed off at me and you have any questions write me
and I'll be happy to help. Best regards, Bill of Georgia
>From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with
the latest news.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron push rods - an engineering comment |
Andy, thanks for the info. Sure wish you had spoke up a couple months ago when
I broached this subject several times on the list.? I did have several experienced
APs examine the bellcranks as the bearing surfaces were a concern to me,
but they assured me the amount on face material on th XL was far greater then
the?face of several certified aircraft they presently owned which reassured me
greatly. Sure wish you had been there as an aero space engineer doing analysis.
Say, how's that Corvair car engine doing for you? Crankshaft holding up okay?
Best regards, Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: Dr. Andrew Elliott <a.s.elliott@cox.net>
Sent: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:09 am
Subject: Zenith-List: Aileron push rods - an engineering comment
Folks:
?
Let me preface this comment with an anti-disclaimer:? I *am* an aerospace engineer
and I *do* do analysis for a living.
?
OK, I applaud Bill Phillips for his innovative idea and professional execution.?
This is the core value of experimental aviation.? But I want to raise a design
issue I think is very important:? When you change part of a system, you have
to consider whether you are going against the designer's intent in other related
parts.
?
The existing aileron control system is based on having tension loads in all the
cables.? This pulls the aluminum aileron bellcranks firmly against the steel
hinge pins, creating a nice bearing surface that is easily and properly lubricated
with a drop of oil every 50 or 100 hours.?
?
Further, the balanced tension loads plus the cable weight mean that the lower "thrust"
bearing surface between the bellcrank bearing blocks and the aluminum
bracket is evenly and very lightly loaded.? Once again, with?regular simple lubrication,
this?should?last a long time.
?
And with both bearing surfaces, light wear will not significantly effect the operation
?
On the other hand, the pushrod?is only attached to one side of the bellcrank.?
This is not good for the bellcrank bearing, which is now both *not* loaded radially
*and* has to support a steady bending moment (torque) about the?span-wise
axis.? Both *NOT* conducive to long life and not fixed by lubrication.? Furthermore,
the lower aluminum-aluminum thrust bearing surface is also now loaded
unevenly and will wear steadily.?
?
Even more, every bit of wear in this system makes the situation progressively worse.?
This is not good design practice.
?
Of course, lots of aircraft use pushrods instead of cables, BUT they also have
bearings designed for those kinds of loads.? So my "best" recommendation would
be to replace the simple bellcrank bearings with more appropriate ones designed
for this kind of loading, if you do the pushrod modification.?
?
My "alternate" recommendation would be to carefully inspect the bellcrank bearings
on a regular basis and as soon as you notice any significant vertical free
play in the pushrod end, replace the bellcrank, brackets and bearing *using the
more appropriate?bearing*.? I would guess that every 25 hours would be a good
interval and any more than +/- 1mm vertical play would be enough to consider
the maintenance action.
?
FWIW,
Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
N601GE,601XL/TD,Corvair
?
?
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron push rods - an engineering comment |
Excellent post Andy. Would the issues you raise be alleviated or reduced if you
left or installed the balance cable as originally designed?
In other words just replace the rear cable with push rods and not the front.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227349#227349
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Grove nosewheel tube and tire assembly |
Jay
Add a little bit of talcum powder in the tires before you insert the tubes
it helps the tube move as it inflates.
Jeff
That's more or less what I found when disassembling this one.
I called the folks at Grove, too; they said this was a common questio for
them, and they recommended throwing away all but the brass nut, screwing
that down on the stem, and using it to center the stem in the hole. We
fiddled with things for a bit, and tried that - and the stem centered itself
perfectly, with the nut dropping into the hole like it was made for it.
The stems on my main gear tires are also, I'm guessing, out of the center of
the hole, since they're twisted to one side. I'm not looking forward to
this, but I'll probably go ahead and remove those tires and remount them, as
well.
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
cemailfooterNO62)
Message 12
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| Subject: | Aileron push rods - an engineering comment |
Great comment. I was also thinking that the rivets that attach the bell
crank supports to the rib could also be put into tension. This could not
happen with a balanced load using cables. Is this a potential problem
also?
Ron
Engineering school was long ago and far away...
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Zenith-List: Aileron push rods - an engineering comment
From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" <a.s.elliott@cox.net>
Folks:
Let me preface this comment with an anti-disclaimer: I *am* an
aerospace engineer and I *do* do analysis for a living.
OK, I applaud Bill Phillips for his innovative idea and professional
execution. This is the core value of experimental aviation. But I want
to raise a design issue I think is very important: When you change part
of a system, you have to consider whether you are going against the
designer's intent in other related parts.
The existing aileron control system is based on having tension loads in
all the cables. This pulls the aluminum aileron bellcranks firmly
against the steel hinge pins, creating a nice bearing surface that is
easily and properly lubricated with a drop of oil every 50 or 100 hours.
Further, the balanced tension loads plus the cable weight mean that the
lower "thrust" bearing surface between the bellcrank bearing blocks and
the aluminum bracket is evenly and very lightly loaded. Once again,
with regular simple lubrication, this should last a long time.
And with both bearing surfaces, light wear will not significantly effect
the operation
On the other hand, the pushrod is only attached to one side of the
bellcrank. This is not good for the bellcrank bearing, which is now
both *not* loaded radially *and* has to support a steady bending moment
(torque) about the span-wise axis. Both *NOT* conducive to long life
and not fixed by lubrication. Furthermore, the lower aluminum-aluminum
thrust bearing surface is also now loaded unevenly and will wear
steadily.
Even more, every bit of wear in this system makes the situation
progressively worse. This is not good design practice.
Of course, lots of aircraft use pushrods instead of cables, BUT they
also have bearings designed for those kinds of loads. So my "best"
recommendation would be to replace the simple bellcrank bearings with
more appropriate ones designed for this kind of loading, if you do the
pushrod modification.
My "alternate" recommendation would be to carefully inspect the
bellcrank bearings on a regular basis and as soon as you notice any
significant vertical free play in the pushrod end, replace the
bellcrank, brackets and bearing *using the more appropriate bearing*. I
would guess that every 25 hours would be a good interval and any more
than +/- 1mm vertical play would be enough to consider the maintenance
action.
FWIW,
Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
N601GE,601XL/TD,Corvair
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: CH601 XL Aileron Push Rods. |
THE Aileron push rod conversion is now on www.ch601.org
<http://www.ch601.org/> in the builders resources section.
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac CH650 C-GOXL, CH701 Rotax 912,
STOL CH750 Just started
<http://www.ch601.org> www.ch601.org / <http://www.ch701.com>
www.ch701.com
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