Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:56 AM - Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank (ashontz)
2. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank (William Dominguez)
3. 09:18 AM - Re: Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank (Bryan Martin)
4. 09:18 AM - Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank (ashontz)
5. 09:22 AM - Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank (ashontz)
6. 12:05 PM - Re: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601 (ashontz)
7. 01:41 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601 (n801bh@netzero.com)
8. 01:58 PM - Re: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601 (ashontz)
9. 04:45 PM - Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank (leinad)
10. 05:43 PM - Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank (ashontz)
11. 08:21 PM - Another EFIS Question (Rich Simmons)
12. 08:38 PM - Re: Another EFIS Question (Craig Payne)
13. 09:08 PM - Re: Another EFIS Question (Paul Mulwitz)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank |
How about submerging the entire tank in water while it's pressurized and look for
leaks, like they do with car tires at your local Tire World?
I'm just about to test one of my tanks (welded) and I think I'll do it that way
myself.
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230832#230832
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank |
That should work too but the soapy water worked very well for me and is sim
pler to do. I weight 150 pounds and I would have a hard time submerging 15
gallons of air in a tank of water, it might even float with me standing on
top.
If you pressurize your tank using a balloons you might have to leave the ba
lloon out of the water connected to the fitting via a hose.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://geocities.com/bill_dom
--- On Wed, 2/18/09, ashontz <ashontz@nbme.org> wrote:
From: ashontz <ashontz@nbme.org>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank
How about submerging the entire tank in water while it's pressurized and lo
ok for leaks, like they do with car tires at your local Tire World?
I'm just about to test one of my tanks (welded) and I think I'll do it that
way myself.
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230832#230832
le, List Admin.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank |
Have you ever tried to hold a beach ball under water? It's not easy
and a beach ball only holds about 3 gallons of air, now think about
trying to hold a 12 or 16 gallon fuel tank full of air under water.
You need about 8 pounds of force to submerge each gallon of air. A
spray bottle of soapy water is much, much easier.
>
>
> How about submerging the entire tank in water while it's pressurized
> and look for leaks, like they do with car tires at your local Tire
> World?
>
> I'm just about to test one of my tanks (welded) and I think I'll do
> it that way myself.
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank |
You don't have to full submerge it, just kind of push it down a bit and rotate
it around it longitudinal axis. The tank should fit in my big Igloo fishing cooler.
[quote="William Dominguez"]That should work too but the soapy water worked very
well for me and is simpler to do. I weight 150 pounds and I would have a hard
time submerging 15 gallons of air in a tank of water, it might even float with
me standing on top.
If you pressurize your tank using a balloons you might have to leave the balloon
out of the water connected to the fitting via a hose.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://geocities.com/bill_dom
--- On Wed, 2/18/09, ashontz wrote:
>
> From: ashontz
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 10:54 AM
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz"
>
> How about submerging the entire tank in water while it's pressurized and look
for leaks, like they do with car tires at your local Tire World?
>
> I'm just about to test one of my tanks (welded) and I think I'll do it that way
myself.
>
> --------
> Andy Shontz
>
> do not archive
>
> CH601XL - Corvair
> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.cosp; --> http========================http://www.matronics.com/contributio=============
>
>
>
>
>
> [b]
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230844#230844
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank |
I do this with car tires all the time. Works great. Plus, the tank doesn't need
to be completely submerged all at once.
bryanmmartin wrote:
> Have you ever tried to hold a beach ball under water? It's not easy
> and a beach ball only holds about 3 gallons of air, now think about
> trying to hold a 12 or 16 gallon fuel tank full of air under water.
> You need about 8 pounds of force to submerge each gallon of air. A
> spray bottle of soapy water is much, much easier.
>
>
> >
> >
> > How about submerging the entire tank in water while it's pressurized
> > and look for leaks, like they do with car tires at your local Tire
> > World?
> >
> > I'm just about to test one of my tanks (welded) and I think I'll do
> > it that way myself.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL,
> RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
> do not archive.
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230846#230846
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601 |
Just an off suggestion that someone may be able to make use of, but, OMC (Evinrude,
Johnson) outboard engines use a vacumm operated pump, essentialy it's mechanical.
A new one can be had for around $90 or less and merely operate off of
a reciprocating vacuum. The vacuum line hooks directly to the crankcase in an
outboard engine installation and the varying pressure of the back of the cylinders
going up and down cause the diaphram in the pump to move and pump fuel as
long as the engine is turning. These things are extremely reliable, I'm just
wondering where on a 4 cycle engine this could be hooked up, there may actually
be enough suction/pressure with it hooked up directly to the crankcase as well.
Just a suggestion I figured I'd throw out there. I'm going to experiment
with it myself. Never had one fail on me, and I haven't owned or bought an outboard
that wasn't more than 20 years old, and operated them for years without
the pumps giving me problems, so who knows how old the pumps are, could have been
original, still with no problems. And the engines I've been running are in
the 140hp range, which are quite thirsty, so the pumps are easily up to the task.
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230868#230868
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601 |
They will not work on 4 stroke engines... They need the pressure pulses
that 2 strokes have in their crackcases...
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "ashontz" <ashontz@nbme.org> wrote:
Just an off suggestion that someone may be able to make use of, but, OMC
(Evinrude, Johnson) outboard engines use a vacumm operated pump, essent
ialy it's mechanical. A new one can be had for around $90 or less and me
rely operate off of a reciprocating vacuum. The vacuum line hooks direct
ly to the crankcase in an outboard engine installation and the varying p
ressure of the back of the cylinders going up and down cause the diaphra
m in the pump to move and pump fuel as long as the engine is turning. Th
ese things are extremely reliable, I'm just wondering where on a 4 cycle
engine this could be hooked up, there may actually be enough suction/pr
essure with it hooked up directly to the crankcase as well. Just a sugge
stion I figured I'd throw out there. I'm going to experiment with it mys
elf. Never had one fail on me, and I haven't owned or bought an outboard
that wasn't more than 20 years old, and operated them for years without
the pumps giving me problems, so who knows how old t!
he pumps are, could have been original, still with no problems. And the
engines I've been running are in the 140hp range, which are quite thirst
y, so the pumps are easily up to the task.
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230868#230868
========================
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========================
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========================
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========================
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Compare rates from Americas top life insurance providers in 30 seconds
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601 |
I know what you're saying, I'm familiar with 2-cycle vs 4-cycle engines. I'd still
be interested in experimenting with it and seeing what gives. It may in fact
work with some thinking. I know when I was working on my pickup truck a few
months ago farting with the emissions that when you take off the oil cap there's
quite a pressure pulse there. That's meant to be a closed system. There may
in fact be enough of a pressure pulse to drive a fuel pump like that. Obviously
in a two stroke engine even the crankcase chambers are seperated from each
other, so the pressure pulses will be quite intense and not subject to dilution
across cylinders. But the pulse I was getting out of the open oil cap on my
truck was still pretty impressive and I would venture to guess could still drive
that style of fuel pump.
[quote="n801bh(at)netzero.com"]They will not work on 4 stroke engines... They need
the pressure pulses that 2 strokes have in their crackcases...
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "ashontz" wrote:
Just an off suggestion that someone may be able to make use of, but, OMC (Evinrude,
Johnson) outboard engines use a vacumm operated pump, essentialy it's mechanical.
A new one can be had for around $90 or less and merely operate off of
a reciprocating vacuum. The vacuum line hooks directly to the crankcase in an
outboard engine installation and the varying pressure of the back of the cylinders
going up and down cause the diaphram in the pump to move and pump fuel as
long as the engine is turning. These things are extremely reliable, I'm just
wondering where on a 4 cycle engine this could be hooked up, there may actually
be enough suction/pressure with it hooked up directly to the crankcase as well.
Just a suggestion I figured I'd throw out there. I'm going to experiment
with it myself. Never had one fail on me, and I haven't owned or bought an outboard
that wasn't more than 20 years old, and operated them for years without
the pumps giving me problems, so who knows how old t!
he pumps are, could have been original, still with no problems. And the engines
I've been running are in the 140hp range, which are quite thirsty, so the pumps
are easily up to the task.
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtop================================================-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
____________________________________________________________
Compare rates from Americas top life insurance providers in 30 seconds (_blank)
> [b]
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230893#230893
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank |
Andy,
In fact, to find my slow leak I did have to submerge it. As much as I tried the
soapy water just wasn't cutting it. Bill has a good point though, you won't
be able to submerge the hole tank easily. I only had to submerge the seams
I was inspecting under a few inches of water in my bathtub to find the leak.
My tanks only had about 1 PSI air pressure in them, as I felt that anymore pressure
would have damaged them. To pressurize the tanks i used a bicycle pump
and a nozzle as used on bladder tanks (as in a house on well water). I'll attach
a picture.
Dan
ashontz wrote:
> How about submerging the entire tank in water while it's pressurized and look
for leaks, like they do with car tires at your local Tire World?
>
> I'm just about to test one of my tanks (welded) and I think I'll do it that way
myself.
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230918#230918
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/fuelsender_138.jpg
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank |
Dan, what kind of fitting are you using for the drain? I'm guessing it's some sort
of riveted fitting? I welded that fitting on the first tank I made (as well
as the outlet fitting), but if I can get away without welding either that's
fine by me. Just welded seams suits me fine. The only advantage I see with a welded
drain fitting is that it can be flush welded before I form the tank skin.
One other thing, I moved my fuel sender to the top of the tank like Scott Laughlins.
However, instead of welding an aluminum mounting ring to the tank, I just
made up a horseshoe shaped fitting as a backer plate. The advantage of the horseshoe
shape, I can insert it through the access hole after the fact. If it
ever needs maintenance, like I strip a thread or something, just make a new one
and put it in there. And again, NO WELDING on a problematic part. I've welded
a few fittings, they're a lot harder than edge welds. Edge welds are about all
I want to mess with, but they do look nice. :)
leinad wrote:
> Andy,
> In fact, to find my slow leak I did have to submerge it. As much as I tried
the soapy water just wasn't cutting it. Bill has a good point though, you won't
be able to submerge the hole tank easily. I only had to submerge the seams
I was inspecting under a few inches of water in my bathtub to find the leak.
My tanks only had about 1 PSI air pressure in them, as I felt that anymore pressure
would have damaged them. To pressurize the tanks i used a bicycle pump
and a nozzle as used on bladder tanks (as in a house on well water). I'll
attach a picture.
> Dan
>
>
> ashontz wrote:
> > How about submerging the entire tank in water while it's pressurized and look
for leaks, like they do with car tires at your local Tire World?
> >
> > I'm just about to test one of my tanks (welded) and I think I'll do it that
way myself.
>
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230931#230931
Message 11
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| Subject: | Another EFIS Question |
I was reading this evening about some of the electrical devices that simulate the
gyro instruments by 2 different means for an EFIS.
Simply put it is stated that they are not intended for IFR due to the abrupt movements
during turbulent conditions.
These movements can render your heading and artificial horizon unreliable under
turbulent conditions.
This leaves me puzzled! Are those of you using EFIS's amd woth experience aware
of this situation on theirs regardless of brands for us home builders?
If I want my plane to be true IFR capable, and the lower lines we use on our home
built planes say this, I think it's a six pack that is needed. The cost is
not that much different.
I love the easy EMIS portions of the se packages but Ireally want the reliability
if my intruments at all times.
Any decent comments would be appreciated.
OHHH Do not archive
Thanks,
Rich Simmons
601 XL
Message 12
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| Subject: | Another EFIS Question |
One of the options for the MGL EFIS models is a box containing the same
British Aerospace optical ring gyros used in certified instruments. But
it costs $2,150 compared to $950 for the box based on
Micro-Electro-Mechanical System (MEMS) =9Cgyros=9D.
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rich
Simmons
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:21 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Another EFIS Question
I was reading this evening about some of the electrical devices that
simulate the gyro instruments by 2 different means for an EFIS.
Simply put it is stated that they are not intended for IFR due to the
abrupt movements during turbulent conditions.
These movements can render your heading and artificial horizon
unreliable under turbulent conditions.
This leaves me puzzled! Are those of you using EFIS's amd woth
experience aware of this situation on theirs regardless of brands for us
home builders?
If I want my plane to be true IFR capable, and the lower lines we use on
our home built planes say this, I think it's a six pack that is needed.
The cost is not that much different.
I love the easy EMIS portions of the se packages but Ireally want the
reliability if my intruments at all times.
Any decent comments would be appreciated.
OHHH Do not archive
Thanks,
Rich Simmons
601 XL
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Another EFIS Question |
Hi Rich,
I don't have the flying experience you mentioned, but perhaps my
computer design experience can help shed some light on this question.
The problem with electronic devices of this nature is they must
sample the sensors with computers and use software to interpret the
information. The situation is then displayed on the screen and the
process starts all over again.
There are two huge variables in the process I just described. The
performance of the computer and the software design. I would guess
the manufacturer and FAA spend a huge amount of effort on certified
EFIS products to see that the combination of computers and software
produces a working product that will stand up to the IFR
environment. This kind of review is not done on the experimental
devices we tend to put into experimental airplanes. We save a lot of
money, but risk having poor performance when we most need great
performance from these devices.
I can't tell you which EFIS products will give you good performance
and which ones will let you down in a pinch. You probably will do
better buying a very popular product such as Dynon rather than a new
entry in the field. This is because the software for any new device
of this type takes a while to become stable and a new product or low
volume product will probably have more bugs than you want. I also
think it would be unwise to choose your EFIS based on the lowest price.
Of course you could stick with the 6 pack and mixed vacuum and
electric instruments. This is the tried and true method that has
worked well since world war 2. This approach is expensive compared
with modern glass panel technology and a lot more difficult to use
and install. I suspect once you use the glass panel approach you
won't want to go back to the 6 pack scan to keep your plane upright.
On the other hand, I attended an AOPA ASF presentation last night
where some alarming comments were made. With the new equipment being
more and more popular you would think the safety records would
improve. That just hasn't been the case. We still have the same
level and kind of accidents as always. Another twist is the recent
notion that single pilot IFR is a bad idea and considered mostly
unsafe. This wasn't true in the old 6 pack days when single pilot
IFR was a very common practice. I suspect the computer interfaces
are so complicated and difficult to work that the lone IFR pilot
can't devote enough attention to be a computer operator while still
flying the plane.
I hope all this helps.
Paul
XL getting close
At 08:20 PM 2/18/2009, you wrote:
>I was reading this evening about some of the electrical devices that
>simulate the gyro instruments by 2 different means for an EFIS.
>
>Simply put it is stated that they are not intended for IFR due to
>the abrupt movements during turbulent conditions.
>
>These movements can render your heading and artificial horizon
>unreliable under turbulent conditions.
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