---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 02/18/09: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:56 AM - Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank (ashontz) 2. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank (William Dominguez) 3. 09:18 AM - Re: Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank (Bryan Martin) 4. 09:18 AM - Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank (ashontz) 5. 09:22 AM - Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank (ashontz) 6. 12:05 PM - Re: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601 (ashontz) 7. 01:41 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601 (n801bh@netzero.com) 8. 01:58 PM - Re: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601 (ashontz) 9. 04:45 PM - Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank (leinad) 10. 05:43 PM - Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank (ashontz) 11. 08:21 PM - Another EFIS Question (Rich Simmons) 12. 08:38 PM - Re: Another EFIS Question (Craig Payne) 13. 09:08 PM - Re: Another EFIS Question (Paul Mulwitz) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:00 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank From: "ashontz" How about submerging the entire tank in water while it's pressurized and look for leaks, like they do with car tires at your local Tire World? I'm just about to test one of my tanks (welded) and I think I'll do it that way myself. -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230832#230832 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:40:05 AM PST US From: William Dominguez Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank That should work too but the soapy water worked very well for me and is sim pler to do. I weight 150 pounds and I would have a hard time submerging 15 gallons of air in a tank of water, it might even float with me standing on top. If you pressurize your tank using a balloons you might have to leave the ba lloon out of the water connected to the fitting via a hose. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://geocities.com/bill_dom --- On Wed, 2/18/09, ashontz wrote: From: ashontz Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank How about submerging the entire tank in water while it's pressurized and lo ok for leaks, like they do with car tires at your local Tire World? I'm just about to test one of my tanks (welded) and I think I'll do it that way myself. -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230832#230832 le, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:26 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank Have you ever tried to hold a beach ball under water? It's not easy and a beach ball only holds about 3 gallons of air, now think about trying to hold a 12 or 16 gallon fuel tank full of air under water. You need about 8 pounds of force to submerge each gallon of air. A spray bottle of soapy water is much, much easier. > > > How about submerging the entire tank in water while it's pressurized > and look for leaks, like they do with car tires at your local Tire > World? > > I'm just about to test one of my tanks (welded) and I think I'll do > it that way myself. > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:26 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank From: "ashontz" You don't have to full submerge it, just kind of push it down a bit and rotate it around it longitudinal axis. The tank should fit in my big Igloo fishing cooler. [quote="William Dominguez"]That should work too but the soapy water worked very well for me and is simpler to do. I weight 150 pounds and I would have a hard time submerging 15 gallons of air in a tank of water, it might even float with me standing on top. If you pressurize your tank using a balloons you might have to leave the balloon out of the water connected to the fitting via a hose. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://geocities.com/bill_dom --- On Wed, 2/18/09, ashontz wrote: > > From: ashontz > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 10:54 AM > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" > > How about submerging the entire tank in water while it's pressurized and look for leaks, like they do with car tires at your local Tire World? > > I'm just about to test one of my tanks (welded) and I think I'll do it that way myself. > > -------- > Andy Shontz > > do not archive > > CH601XL - Corvair > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.cosp; --> http========================http://www.matronics.com/contributio============= > > > > > > [b] -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230844#230844 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:23 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank From: "ashontz" I do this with car tires all the time. Works great. Plus, the tank doesn't need to be completely submerged all at once. bryanmmartin wrote: > Have you ever tried to hold a beach ball under water? It's not easy > and a beach ball only holds about 3 gallons of air, now think about > trying to hold a 12 or 16 gallon fuel tank full of air under water. > You need about 8 pounds of force to submerge each gallon of air. A > spray bottle of soapy water is much, much easier. > > > > > > > > How about submerging the entire tank in water while it's pressurized > > and look for leaks, like they do with car tires at your local Tire > > World? > > > > I'm just about to test one of my tanks (welded) and I think I'll do > > it that way myself. > > > > > > > > > -- > Bryan Martin > N61BM, CH 601 XL, > RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. > do not archive. -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230846#230846 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:36 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601 From: "ashontz" Just an off suggestion that someone may be able to make use of, but, OMC (Evinrude, Johnson) outboard engines use a vacumm operated pump, essentialy it's mechanical. A new one can be had for around $90 or less and merely operate off of a reciprocating vacuum. The vacuum line hooks directly to the crankcase in an outboard engine installation and the varying pressure of the back of the cylinders going up and down cause the diaphram in the pump to move and pump fuel as long as the engine is turning. These things are extremely reliable, I'm just wondering where on a 4 cycle engine this could be hooked up, there may actually be enough suction/pressure with it hooked up directly to the crankcase as well. Just a suggestion I figured I'd throw out there. I'm going to experiment with it myself. Never had one fail on me, and I haven't owned or bought an outboard that wasn't more than 20 years old, and operated them for years without the pumps giving me problems, so who knows how old the pumps are, could have been original, still with no problems. And the engines I've been running are in the 140hp range, which are quite thirsty, so the pumps are easily up to the task. -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230868#230868 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:41:42 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601 They will not work on 4 stroke engines... They need the pressure pulses that 2 strokes have in their crackcases... do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "ashontz" wrote: Just an off suggestion that someone may be able to make use of, but, OMC (Evinrude, Johnson) outboard engines use a vacumm operated pump, essent ialy it's mechanical. A new one can be had for around $90 or less and me rely operate off of a reciprocating vacuum. The vacuum line hooks direct ly to the crankcase in an outboard engine installation and the varying p ressure of the back of the cylinders going up and down cause the diaphra m in the pump to move and pump fuel as long as the engine is turning. Th ese things are extremely reliable, I'm just wondering where on a 4 cycle engine this could be hooked up, there may actually be enough suction/pr essure with it hooked up directly to the crankcase as well. Just a sugge stion I figured I'd throw out there. I'm going to experiment with it mys elf. Never had one fail on me, and I haven't owned or bought an outboard that wasn't more than 20 years old, and operated them for years without the pumps giving me problems, so who knows how old t! he pumps are, could have been original, still with no problems. And the engines I've been running are in the 140hp range, which are quite thirst y, so the pumps are easily up to the task. -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230868#230868 ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ____________________________________________________________ Compare rates from Americas top life insurance providers in 30 seconds http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/BLSrjpYVvB7eFxf5s6uzEOmVn Un0guU3Ykx5CPPhkOEKMEpVk8UoiV9yrvy/ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:58:58 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Fuel Pump Requirements on a Low Wing 601 From: "ashontz" I know what you're saying, I'm familiar with 2-cycle vs 4-cycle engines. I'd still be interested in experimenting with it and seeing what gives. It may in fact work with some thinking. I know when I was working on my pickup truck a few months ago farting with the emissions that when you take off the oil cap there's quite a pressure pulse there. That's meant to be a closed system. There may in fact be enough of a pressure pulse to drive a fuel pump like that. Obviously in a two stroke engine even the crankcase chambers are seperated from each other, so the pressure pulses will be quite intense and not subject to dilution across cylinders. But the pulse I was getting out of the open oil cap on my truck was still pretty impressive and I would venture to guess could still drive that style of fuel pump. [quote="n801bh(at)netzero.com"]They will not work on 4 stroke engines... They need the pressure pulses that 2 strokes have in their crackcases... do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "ashontz" wrote: Just an off suggestion that someone may be able to make use of, but, OMC (Evinrude, Johnson) outboard engines use a vacumm operated pump, essentialy it's mechanical. A new one can be had for around $90 or less and merely operate off of a reciprocating vacuum. The vacuum line hooks directly to the crankcase in an outboard engine installation and the varying pressure of the back of the cylinders going up and down cause the diaphram in the pump to move and pump fuel as long as the engine is turning. These things are extremely reliable, I'm just wondering where on a 4 cycle engine this could be hooked up, there may actually be enough suction/pressure with it hooked up directly to the crankcase as well. Just a suggestion I figured I'd throw out there. I'm going to experiment with it myself. Never had one fail on me, and I haven't owned or bought an outboard that wasn't more than 20 years old, and operated them for years without the pumps giving me problems, so who knows how old t! he pumps are, could have been original, still with no problems. And the engines I've been running are in the 140hp range, which are quite thirsty, so the pumps are easily up to the task. -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtop================================================-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List ____________________________________________________________ Compare rates from Americas top life insurance providers in 30 seconds (_blank) > [b] -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230893#230893 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:45:18 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank From: "leinad" Andy, In fact, to find my slow leak I did have to submerge it. As much as I tried the soapy water just wasn't cutting it. Bill has a good point though, you won't be able to submerge the hole tank easily. I only had to submerge the seams I was inspecting under a few inches of water in my bathtub to find the leak. My tanks only had about 1 PSI air pressure in them, as I felt that anymore pressure would have damaged them. To pressurize the tanks i used a bicycle pump and a nozzle as used on bladder tanks (as in a house on well water). I'll attach a picture. Dan ashontz wrote: > How about submerging the entire tank in water while it's pressurized and look for leaks, like they do with car tires at your local Tire World? > > I'm just about to test one of my tanks (welded) and I think I'll do it that way myself. -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230918#230918 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/fuelsender_138.jpg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:27 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Leaky Prosealed Tank From: "ashontz" Dan, what kind of fitting are you using for the drain? I'm guessing it's some sort of riveted fitting? I welded that fitting on the first tank I made (as well as the outlet fitting), but if I can get away without welding either that's fine by me. Just welded seams suits me fine. The only advantage I see with a welded drain fitting is that it can be flush welded before I form the tank skin. One other thing, I moved my fuel sender to the top of the tank like Scott Laughlins. However, instead of welding an aluminum mounting ring to the tank, I just made up a horseshoe shaped fitting as a backer plate. The advantage of the horseshoe shape, I can insert it through the access hole after the fact. If it ever needs maintenance, like I strip a thread or something, just make a new one and put it in there. And again, NO WELDING on a problematic part. I've welded a few fittings, they're a lot harder than edge welds. Edge welds are about all I want to mess with, but they do look nice. :) leinad wrote: > Andy, > In fact, to find my slow leak I did have to submerge it. As much as I tried the soapy water just wasn't cutting it. Bill has a good point though, you won't be able to submerge the hole tank easily. I only had to submerge the seams I was inspecting under a few inches of water in my bathtub to find the leak. My tanks only had about 1 PSI air pressure in them, as I felt that anymore pressure would have damaged them. To pressurize the tanks i used a bicycle pump and a nozzle as used on bladder tanks (as in a house on well water). I'll attach a picture. > Dan > > > ashontz wrote: > > How about submerging the entire tank in water while it's pressurized and look for leaks, like they do with car tires at your local Tire World? > > > > I'm just about to test one of my tanks (welded) and I think I'll do it that way myself. > -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230931#230931 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:33 PM PST US From: Rich Simmons <4RCSIMMONS@comcast.net> Subject: Zenith-List: Another EFIS Question I was reading this evening about some of the electrical devices that simulate the gyro instruments by 2 different means for an EFIS. Simply put it is stated that they are not intended for IFR due to the abrupt movements during turbulent conditions. These movements can render your heading and artificial horizon unreliable under turbulent conditions. This leaves me puzzled! Are those of you using EFIS's amd woth experience aware of this situation on theirs regardless of brands for us home builders? If I want my plane to be true IFR capable, and the lower lines we use on our home built planes say this, I think it's a six pack that is needed. The cost is not that much different. I love the easy EMIS portions of the se packages but Ireally want the reliability if my intruments at all times. Any decent comments would be appreciated. OHHH Do not archive Thanks, Rich Simmons 601 XL ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:38 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Another EFIS Question One of the options for the MGL EFIS models is a box containing the same British Aerospace optical ring gyros used in certified instruments. But it costs $2,150 compared to $950 for the box based on Micro-Electro-Mechanical System (MEMS) =9Cgyros=9D. -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rich Simmons Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:21 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Another EFIS Question I was reading this evening about some of the electrical devices that simulate the gyro instruments by 2 different means for an EFIS. Simply put it is stated that they are not intended for IFR due to the abrupt movements during turbulent conditions. These movements can render your heading and artificial horizon unreliable under turbulent conditions. This leaves me puzzled! Are those of you using EFIS's amd woth experience aware of this situation on theirs regardless of brands for us home builders? If I want my plane to be true IFR capable, and the lower lines we use on our home built planes say this, I think it's a six pack that is needed. The cost is not that much different. I love the easy EMIS portions of the se packages but Ireally want the reliability if my intruments at all times. Any decent comments would be appreciated. OHHH Do not archive Thanks, Rich Simmons 601 XL ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:03 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Another EFIS Question Hi Rich, I don't have the flying experience you mentioned, but perhaps my computer design experience can help shed some light on this question. The problem with electronic devices of this nature is they must sample the sensors with computers and use software to interpret the information. The situation is then displayed on the screen and the process starts all over again. There are two huge variables in the process I just described. The performance of the computer and the software design. I would guess the manufacturer and FAA spend a huge amount of effort on certified EFIS products to see that the combination of computers and software produces a working product that will stand up to the IFR environment. This kind of review is not done on the experimental devices we tend to put into experimental airplanes. We save a lot of money, but risk having poor performance when we most need great performance from these devices. I can't tell you which EFIS products will give you good performance and which ones will let you down in a pinch. You probably will do better buying a very popular product such as Dynon rather than a new entry in the field. This is because the software for any new device of this type takes a while to become stable and a new product or low volume product will probably have more bugs than you want. I also think it would be unwise to choose your EFIS based on the lowest price. Of course you could stick with the 6 pack and mixed vacuum and electric instruments. This is the tried and true method that has worked well since world war 2. This approach is expensive compared with modern glass panel technology and a lot more difficult to use and install. I suspect once you use the glass panel approach you won't want to go back to the 6 pack scan to keep your plane upright. On the other hand, I attended an AOPA ASF presentation last night where some alarming comments were made. With the new equipment being more and more popular you would think the safety records would improve. That just hasn't been the case. We still have the same level and kind of accidents as always. Another twist is the recent notion that single pilot IFR is a bad idea and considered mostly unsafe. This wasn't true in the old 6 pack days when single pilot IFR was a very common practice. I suspect the computer interfaces are so complicated and difficult to work that the lone IFR pilot can't devote enough attention to be a computer operator while still flying the plane. I hope all this helps. Paul XL getting close At 08:20 PM 2/18/2009, you wrote: >I was reading this evening about some of the electrical devices that >simulate the gyro instruments by 2 different means for an EFIS. > >Simply put it is stated that they are not intended for IFR due to >the abrupt movements during turbulent conditions. > >These movements can render your heading and artificial horizon >unreliable under turbulent conditions. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.