Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:42 AM - Fuses /Breakers and a few electrical questions (Rich Simmons)
2. 05:17 AM - Re: Fuses /Breakers and a few electrical questions (Paul Mulwitz)
3. 05:25 AM - Re: Fuses /Breakers and a few electrical questions (Keith Ashcraft)
4. 06:08 AM - Re: Fuses /Breakers and a few electrical questions (Jay Maynard)
5. 06:33 AM - Fuses /Breakers and a few electrical questions (Beckman, Rick)
6. 06:35 AM - Re: Fuses /Breakers and a few electrical questions (George Race)
7. 06:51 AM - Re: Fuses /Breakers and a few electrical questions (Gig Giacona)
8. 07:41 AM - Re: Fuses /Breakers and a few electrical questions (Bryan Martin)
9. 08:53 AM - Re: Fuses /Breakers and a few electrical questions (Gig Giacona)
10. 10:57 AM - Re: To 406 or not 406 that is the question. (Martin Pohl)
11. 04:49 PM - Re: Re: Corv-oil Filler Tube ()
12. 07:29 PM - Re: Corv-oil Filler Tube (leinad)
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| Subject: | Fuses /Breakers and a few electrical questions |
1) When it comes to fuses and breakers, is there literally one for each electrical
component or do some components share.
2) Also, on a split master switch as in a Cessna one side is for engine electrical
operation and the other is for all other electrical?
3) The mag switch; Once this is in the on position, a) the mags are considered
hot, the prop can be flipped for a hand start regardless of where the master is.
Is this correct?
4) What are some descent cost effective breakers that can be used.
5) Same as 5 but for switches
6) Also, is there any free simple software out there for drawing up a schematic.
My pencil actually works pretty good and there is no chance of losing the file
unless my black lab decides my book is a chew toy!
If someone would like to share what they did for a schematic I can use fro an example
it would be great!
I know these question are some what basic but hey, it's a starting point.
Any good advice would be appreciated.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Rich
601 XL
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| Subject: | Re: Fuses /Breakers and a few electrical questions |
Hi Rich,
There are many questions you ask that don't have single or even
simple answers. The basic problem seems to be the simple truth that
electrical and electronic design of airplanes is similar in
complexity to the airframe design but kit makers only do the airframe
and leave the rest to the builders. This is one of the reasons the
statement 90 percent done, 90 percent to go is a real truth.
I will try to answer some of your questions, but these are just my
opinions. There really is a lot of difference of opinion on many of
your questions and no really correct answer.
1. You need to decide which devices will be protected separately
from the other devices. This is an exercise in failure analysis. If
you put all your devices on one fuse protected circuit then a single
failure can remove all your electrical devices at once. This may not
be a problem if you are flying VFR/Day but might be a disaster if you are IFR.
2. A common use for the split master switch is to isolate avionics
(the expensive stuff) from basic electrical stuff like starter and
lights. Many older electronic devices could be damaged from surges
generated when using the starter motor. The second half of this kind
of use is called avionics master switch. You need to analyze your
own needs here too.
3. Once again, you need to understand your own engine to answer this
question. For a Lycosaurus style engine, the magneto switch grounds
both mags. As long as this grounding works properly you won't have
cylinders firing when you spin the propeller. If one of the ground
paths isn't properly connected then hand propping might just start
your engine. This is all changed for other engine configurations
that use different style magnetos or electronic ignition.
4. Circuit breakers cost a lot more than fuses.
5. Switches come in MILLIONS of different configurations, ratings,
and quality levels.
6. You can draw schematics with any drawing program. These vary
from free software to full simulation packages that cost upward of
$25,000 per copy. For the kind of stuff we tend to do on
experimental planes, I think the pencil and paper approach is the best.
There are a number of books and some web sites devoted to aircraft
electrical and electronic systems. There are also many folks around
that have been through all this before and might be willing to work
with you for your plane's special needs. My best advice to you is to
join a local EAA chapter and see what sort of assistance you can get
to start your trip down this garden path. Eventually you will need
to make your own decisions for your own plane.
Paul
XL getting close
At 04:30 AM 2/25/2009, you wrote:
>1) When it comes to fuses and breakers, is there literally one for
>each electrical component or do some components share.
>
>2) Also, on a split master switch as in a Cessna one side is for
>engine electrical operation and the other is for all other electrical?
>
>3) The mag switch; Once this is in the on position, a) the mags are
>considered hot, the prop can be flipped for a hand start regardless
>of where the master is. Is this correct?
>
>4) What are some descent cost effective breakers that can be used.
>
>5) Same as 5 but for switches
>
>6) Also, is there any free simple software out there for drawing up
>a schematic. My pencil actually works pretty good and there is no
>chance of losing the file unless my black lab decides my book is a chew toy!
>
>If someone would like to share what they did for a schematic I can
>use fro an example it would be great!
>
>I know these question are some what basic but hey, it's a starting point.
>
>Any good advice would be appreciated.
>
>DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>Rich
>601 XL
>
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| Subject: | Re: Fuses /Breakers and a few electrical questions |
Rich,
Item #6. Several people have used www.deltacad.com. It will read and write DXF files. That way you can load examples that others have created and modify it to suit your needs.
Keith
CH701 - scratch
N 38.9940
W 105.1305
Alt. 9,100'
________________________________
From: Rich Simmons <4RCSIMMONS@comcast.net>
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 5:30:44 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Fuses /Breakers and a few electrical questions
1) When it comes to fuses and breakers, is there literally one for each electrical
component or do some components share.
2) Also, on a split master switch as in a Cessna one side is for engine electrical
operation and the other is for all other electrical?
3) The mag switch; Once this is in the on position, a) the mags are considered
hot, the prop can be flipped for a hand start regardless of where the master
is. Is this correct?
4) What are some descent cost effective breakers that can be used.
5) Same as 5 but for switches
6) Also, is there any free simple software out there for drawing up a schematic.
My pencil actually works pretty good and there is no chance of losing the file
unless my black lab decides my book is a chew toy!
If someone would like to share what they did for a schematic I can use fro an example
it would be great!
I know these question are some what basic but hey, it's a starting point.
Any good advice would be appreciated.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Rich
601 XL
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| Subject: | Re: Fuses /Breakers and a few electrical questions |
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:30:44PM +0000, Rich Simmons wrote:
> 1) When it comes to fuses and breakers, is there literally one for each
> electrical component or do some components share.
Usually, it's one for each system...for example, the nav lights are usually
all on one breaker.
> 2) Also, on a split master switch as in a Cessna one side is for engine
> electrical operation and the other is for all other electrical?
No. One side is for the battery, and the other is for the alternator field.
> 3) The mag switch; Once this is in the on position, a) the mags are
> considered hot, the prop can be flipped for a hand start regardless of
> where the master is. Is this correct?
Yes. The mag switch grounds the P-leads of the mags that are not enabled (so
it's closed in the "off" position). If either mag is on, then the engine may
start if the prop is moved. This is why it's a REALLY GOOD IDEA to remove
the key (which can only be done if the mags are off) when working on or
around the airplane, and to do a P-lead check regularly.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 5
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| Subject: | Fuses /Breakers and a few electrical questions |
Rich, I would like to suggest that you invest in
Bob Nuchols' electrical book. It comes in a plain brown wrapper so you
do not pay for binding. It has all you need to know about lower voltage
electrical systems-basically, airplane systems. There are many diagrams
in the back of the book and they can be modified to fit your needs with
little headache or heartache. If possible, go to one of his seminars.
VERY informative. In many circles, he is considered the Guru of
homebuilt electrical systems. I think his address is
www.aeroelectric.com <http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
If I am mistaken on the URL, just Google his name and you will get it.
All the info on seminars and products is there.
If you are considering breakers, you may wish to
contact www.whiteindustries.com <http://www.whiteindustries.com/>
in Bates City, MO. Mark Dickensheets is the one to contact for parts. He
probably has fuse blocks, too, but if it were mw, I would prefer new
blocks...about ten bucks each at NAPA or other auto parts places.
Happy Building!! God Bless!!
Rick
Do not archive
1) When it comes to fuses and breakers, is there literally one for each
electrical component or do some components share.
2) Also, on a split master switch as in a Cessna one side is for engine
electrical operation and the other is for all other electrical?
3) The mag switch; Once this is in the on position, a) the mags are
considered hot, the prop can be flipped for a hand start regardless of
where the master is. Is this correct?
4) What are some descent cost effective breakers that can be used.
5) Same as 5 but for switches
6) Also, is there any free simple software out there for drawing up a
schematic. My pencil actually works pretty good and there is no chance
of losing the file unless my black lab decides my book is a chew toy!
If someone would like to share what they did for a schematic I can use
fro an example it would be great!
I know these question are some what basic but hey, it's a starting
point.
Any good advice would be appreciated.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Rich
601 XL
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| Subject: | Fuses /Breakers and a few electrical questions |
Attached is the schematic diagram of what I did building a CH-701
It is in picture format. I have it in DWG and DXF if it would be of any
help.
Diagram was drawn using Microsoft Visio.
George
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rich Simmons
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:31 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Fuses /Breakers and a few electrical questions
If someone would like to share what they did for a schematic I can use fro
an example it would be great!
I know these question are some what basic but hey, it's a starting point.
Any good advice would be appreciated.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Rich
601 XL
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| Subject: | Re: Fuses /Breakers and a few electrical questions |
Here is a list of the CBs in my plane. Sorry for all the extra characters but it
is a cut and paste from the online record of my ACS order. These particular
CBs are good quality and from experience I can tell you that they pop as quickly
as could be desired. The only negative is that they don't allow manual pulling
of the breaker.
11-03941 CIRCUIT BREAKERS W58XC4C12A5 1 1 1 0 5.250 0.0000 5.250 5.25
11-03938 CIRCUIT BREAKERS W58XC4C12A10 3 3 3 0 5.250 0.0000 5.250 15.75
11-03937 CIRCUIT BREAKERS W58XC4C12A1 1 1 1 0 5.750 0.0000 5.750 5.75
11-03940 CIRCUIT BREAKERS W58XC4C12A3 3 3 3 0 5.750 0.0000 5.750 17.25
11-04126 CIRCUIT BREAKERS W58XC4C12A15 5 5 5 0 5.500 0.0000 5.500 27.50
11-04128 CIRCUIT BREAKERS W58XC4C12A7 1 1 1 0 5.250 0.0000 5.250 5.25
11-03939 CIRCUIT BREAKERS W58XC4C12A2 3 3 3 0 5.750 0.0000 5.750 17.25
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232010#232010
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| Subject: | Re: Fuses /Breakers and a few electrical questions |
1. Typically, a separate fuse or breaker is used for each major
component of the system. There is no rule that requires it though.
Some related components can be placed on the same fuse. For instance,
my blind encoder is on the same fuse as the transponder, the encoder
draws very little current and is useless if the transponder is off
anyway.
2, One side of the Cessna split master switch controls the master
relay, the other side provides power to the alternator field.
3. Magnetos are completely independent from the master switch. The
engine can be started and run with the master off.
4. Breakers are always more expensive than fuses. I have used breakers
only on circuits that I may want to disable easily. everywhere else I
used fuses.
5. B & C specialty sells some good quality, inexpensive switches.
On Feb 25, 2009, at 7:30 AM, Rich Simmons wrote:
> 1) When it comes to fuses and breakers, is there literally one for
> each electrical component or do some components share.
>
> 2) Also, on a split master switch as in a Cessna one side is for
> engine electrical operation and the other is for all other electrical?
>
> 3) The mag switch; Once this is in the on position, a) the mags are
> considered hot, the prop can be flipped for a hand start regardless
> of where the master is. Is this correct?
>
> 4) What are some descent cost effective breakers that can be used.
>
> 5) Same as 5 but for switches
>
> 6) Also, is there any free simple software out there for drawing up
> a schematic. My pencil actually works pretty good and there is no
> chance of losing the file unless my black lab decides my book is a
> chew toy!
>
> If someone would like to share what they did for a schematic I can
> use fro an example it would be great!
>
> I know these question are some what basic but hey, it's a starting
> point.
>
> Any good advice would be appreciated.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
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| Subject: | Re: Fuses /Breakers and a few electrical questions |
Just for the record I was going to use fuses. The only reason I didn't was that
the design I had in my head for putting them in the panel didn't look as good
as I had hoped when it fell out of my head an on the the panel.
At this point I had a big hole in the panel and figured a way to cover the hole
and give myself a pretty nice looking CB panel.
BTW...I didn't use a buss bar. The feed wires come from the back of the plane where
the battery and contactor are and are daisy chained between the CBs. This
makes it very easy to change out a individual CB or to make major changes to
the individual busses.
An example of this was when I decided to pull the two fuel pumps out of the normal
buss systems and have them run separately on feed wires like the two ignition
systems. The panel still looks the same from the front but the wiring behind
changed.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232038#232038
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: To 406 or not 406 that is the question. |
> civil airliners may still be monitoring 121.5 anyone know
Yes, most of the civil airlines are monitoring 121.5 on the second set at all times
(unless we have to contact a preceding sector for entry clearance on COM2).
It happens from time to time that we hear an ELT-signal on 121.5. We then relay
this to ATC, including our position (if not under radar contact). What ATC does
with this information is unknown to me (however I doubt that they start a search
and rescue immediately...). Is anybody working at an ATC and knows their
procedure?
Cheers, Martin
--------
Martin Pohl
Zodiac XL QBK
8645 Jona, Switzerland
www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232071#232071
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| Subject: | Re: Corv-oil Filler Tube |
Daniel. your site is great! Answered several of my questions. I do have
one, however, that I asked WW, and never got a reply. What's with the
flywheel? According to the book, it's an 85 or 86 Taurus, looks like it
should have come from an automatic transmission, but there isn't
anything in the manual addressing what needs to be done with it. I
assume you have to re-drill for the bolt battern on the flange, right?
Also, he talks about a puck. but doesn't give enough information on it.
Like, why, and what it looks like, and where it goes. It's not even on
his parts list, as far as I could tell. How did you do your front end
between engine and prop hub?
Paul R
----- Original Message -----
From: leinad<mailto:leinad@hughes.net>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 8:26 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Corv-oil Filler Tube
<leinad@hughes.net<mailto:leinad@hughes.net>>
Paul,
It sounds like you're aiming toward a setup like the one I've chosen.
Rear alternator running off the harmonic balancer. I left the oil
filler in place but shortened it. I was able to cut it off and re-weld
it shorter without pressing the steel filler out of the rear housing.
I did remove the horizontal oil filter adapter and have mine vertical.
The belt passes it without interference.
I suppose you could remove the alternator saddle but I found it a
convenient place for the alternator brackets to bolt.
There are lots of pictures of my set up on my website.
http://daniel.dempseyfamily.us/zodiac/index.html<http://daniel.dempseyfam
ily.us/zodiac/index.html>
> "paulrod36(at)msn.com"] Before I modify my Corvair with my trusty
chainsaw and sledgehammer, I thought I'd ask a few questions: What's
the consensus on placement of the filler tube? I've been thinking of
either setting the tube at the top rear of one of the valve covers, or
shortening it way down, and setting it somewhere in the flat top cover.
Since I'm not yet quite sure how much space I'll need for the
alternator, and exactly how much space will be available, I thought I'd
ask and avoid the "Oh, *&#" moment that invariably follows blazing
new trails over the cliff. Also, if you remove the horizontal oil
filter adapter, and hang the filter vertical, is there still enough
room for the rear accessory pulley? And, finally, I don't see any need
for the old Delcotron saddle. Anybody have a problem with sawing it
off?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul Rodriguez
> 601XL/Corvair
> Crank about to go for nitriding
>
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231942#231942<http://forums
.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231942#231942>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Zenith-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Corv-oil Filler Tube |
Paul,
I've purchased William Wynne's conversion manual from back in 2004. I found the
same problem. Certain key pieces of information were missing, like a drawing
of the puck, and some of the dimensions. WW was at first very friendly and
sounding as if he wanted to help. But when I started asking questions like the
ones you asked the communications stopped. He may have just gotten very busy,
but I was left feeling like he didn't want to provide all the information needed
to do the conversion (which is what I thought I'd purchased). I wound up
designing my own prop hub, and decided to mount the alternator on the rear of
the engine where the harmonic balancer pulley is located. This made sense to
me. The pulley was meant to drive an alternator. It saves weight and moves
the weight back a good distance. The draw back is that it'll require opening
the "hood" to do a preflight to check the belt tension, but that seamed like
a good trade off. For the ring gear the engine flange has a pilot that sticks
out and my prop hub has a counter bore on the engine end that fits on that
pilot snuggly. The ring gear has been bored to that same pilot diameter and the
bolt pattern drilled around it for the same bolt circle as the prop. The pilot
on the flange is long enough to go through the gear material (I think it
was about .090) and well into the counter bore on the prop hub. The bolts that
hold the prop hub on also hold the gear on. The gear being clamped in between
the hub and the flange. I am also using a safety shaft. I checked the material
the gear is made of for flatness and it was VERY flat. It runs perfectly
true when the engine is running. The only possible problem I can see in this
design (which has NOT been flight tested) is that the starter delivers its torque
through this joint. I don't think most of the corvair builders need ALL
the information. They'll purchase his parts and be able to do the conversion,
and that may be the best path.
Dan
> ="paulrod36(at)msn.com"] Daniel. your site is great! Answered several of my
questions. I do have one, however, that I asked WW, and never got a reply. What's
with the flywheel? According to the book, it's an 85 or 86 Taurus, looks
like it should have come from an automatic transmission, but there isn't anything
in the manual addressing what needs to be done with it. I assume you have
to re-drill for the bolt battern on the flange, right? Also, he talks about
a puck. but doesn't give enough information on it. Like, why, and what it
looks like, and where it goes. It's not even on his parts list, as far as I
could tell. How did you do your front end between engine and prop hub?
>
> Paul R
> ---
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232163#232163
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