---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 03/15/09: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:26 AM - Re: Re: Smashing tubing (jaybannist@cs.com) 2. 07:31 AM - Re: Is Your CH601XL/650 a 1320 lb Airplane or a 1041 lb Airpl (Sabrina) 3. 07:53 AM - Re: Re: Is Your CH601XL/650 a 1320 lb Airplane or a 1041 lb Airplane (Al Hays) 4. 08:06 AM - Re: D-100 Shield (Bill Naumuk) 5. 08:17 AM - Re: Is Your CH601XL/650 a 1320 lb Airplane or a 1041 lb Airplane (Sabrina) 6. 09:49 AM - Re: Re: Is Your CH601XL/650 a 1320 lb Airplane or a 1041 lb Airplane (Bryan Martin) 7. 11:41 AM - Re: Is Your CH601XL/650 a 1320 lb Airplane or a 1041 lb Airplane (Sabrina) 8. 02:40 PM - Chat Room Reminder for "Digesters" (George Race) 9. 02:55 PM - Re: Re: Is Your CH601XL/650 a 1320 lb Airplane or a 1041 lb Airplane (Juan Vega) 10. 03:02 PM - Re: Re: Is Your CH601XL/650 a 1320 lb Airplane or a 1041 lb Airplane (Juan Vega) 11. 08:53 PM - Nylon For Canopy System (John Smith) 12. 09:36 PM - Re: Nylon For Canopy System (Craig Payne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Smashing tubing From: jaybannist@cs.com Ron & John, Thanks for the feedback.? I have enough tubing to try both ideas. Jay Bannister -----Original Message----- From: Ron Lendon I would work the metal cold. If you take two pieces of hardwood and drill part way through the same diameter of the tube, they can be used as saddles to control the crush of the tube. Clamp the blocks together and drill hole. Use blocks to support the tube while crushing in a vice. You may need to make some adjustments for material thickness but I just wanted to illustrate the concept. ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:33 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Is Your CH601XL/650 a 1320 lb Airplane or a 1041 lb Airpl From: "Sabrina" Can you imagine the harm to our US fleet of 1320 pound aircraft if the Germans test a 1041 pound aircraft to 6G at 1320 pounds and it breaks? A major flaw in ZBAG's reasoning is their belief that ALL XLs are built equal--they are not. If, on the other hand you pulled a random AMD XL out of service and tested that in flight, in a wind tunnel and to 6Gs at 1320, then you would have some testing worth paying for. Please keep in mind that many governments are working are on the problem... the key now is to preach pre-flight and V speeds... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234658#234658 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:13 AM PST US From: Al Hays Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Is Your CH601XL/650 a 1320 lb Airplane or a 1041 lb Airplane Sabrina, I absolutely agree that it would seem pretty easy. However, I am only speaking up here in response because I fear someone may attempt exactly that simple "spring loaded set of three pulleys" and suffer unintended consequences. While I have installed and worked on quite a few things that use spring loaded tensioning systems in cars, farm equipment, and mechanical systems in buildings, I don't believe it would be a safe and reliable add-on to the control cables. The tension we adjust to or check for in pre-flight is with the aircraft at rest. In flight, those cables might be subject to quite a variance of forces. I'd worry that, among other things, a potential flutter problem could be exacerbated by the spring. I suspect properly designing a spring loaded auto-tensioning system by qualified engineers and dynamicists would be cost-prohibitive. Of course, I'd be happy to be proven wrong on this. I really do hope that Zenair will extend the testing to meet U.S. specs and in an ideal world, they would be able to say "thanks for offering, but we've decided to do that anyway and don't need the money". I'd like to know that in the event of cables unexpectedly becoming slack for whatever reason (possibly even due to builder error), the plane could be flown to a safe arrival on the ground. I'll be willing to make additional contribution to fund testing if needed. Al Hays alhays@hickoryhillfarmsheep.com N5892H reserved On Mar 15, 2009, at 12:25 AM, Sabrina wrote: > > "2)Vne : is restricted to 180km/h 97 mph !!!!!" > > 180 km/h = 112 mph = 97 knots and they are assuming slack cables > > I can't imagine anyone on this list flying their XL over 112 MPH > with slack cables... > > it is so easy to reach behind the seat on the pre-flight and check > them... > > Until we know more, it would seem pretty easy to design a spring > loaded set of three pulleys to maintain minimal aileron balance > cable tension... maybe do that with the $2500 rather than paying > someone to do something they already have a duty to do. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234628#234628 > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:00 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: D-100 Shield Craig+Ron- Ron provided the link and I found the exact same question posted by an RV6er. I have to do some more navigation to find the answer, but have to break for a hardware store run before they close. Thanks, guys. A200 and G196 connected and powered up. Bill Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Payne To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 12:53 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: D-100 Shield If it is the actual shield (foil or braided wire tube surrounding the wire bundle) as opposed to a ground wire then it should be connected to the metal shell of the D connector at one end (probably the D-100) (assuming the metal shell on the D-100 is connected to ground. If not connect it to the ground pin at the D-100 end. I think I mentioned the user's group. I was referring to the user's forum on the Dynon web site. -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 7:07 PM To: zenith list Subject: Zenith-List: D-100 Shield All- Where does the shield for the D-100 computer and remote compass 9 pin connectors terminate? Also, someone refered to the Dynon user's site. What's the address? Thanks. Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:30 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Is Your CH601XL/650 a 1320 lb Airplane or a 1041 lb Airplane From: "Sabrina" Cirrus have rudders interconnected to the ailerons with springs. Cessna's have spring tensioned rudder cables. A lot of engineering was done on this issue in 2007: http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/airwd/ADfiles/UNDER/CIRRUS/CIRRUS-009.pdf If ZBAG is using an Australian engineer, he should have ready access to all this data... maybe $2500 is enough, maybe not... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234669#234669 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:49:17 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Is Your CH601XL/650 a 1320 lb Airplane or a 1041 lb Airplane The springs on the Cirrus are probably to help coordinate turns and help its spin resistant characteristics. As I recall, the Cirrus aircraft were exempted from much of the spin testing requirements during certification because they incorporated many features to make them spin resistant. The springs on the Cessna operate the nose-wheel steering. Those springs aren't there to keep the cables properly tensioned. Adding pulleys and springs to the aileron control system will add unnecessary complexity and additional failure modes. If one of those springs let go in flight, you might find yourself thoroughly screwed. If it turns out that there is a problem with the ailerons, the simplest solution would be to counter-balance them. A few people have already devised modifications for that. > > Cirrus have rudders interconnected to the ailerons with springs. > > Cessna's have spring tensioned rudder cables. > > A lot of engineering was done on this issue in 2007: > > http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/airwd/ADfiles/UNDER/CIRRUS/CIRRUS-009.pdf > > If ZBAG is using an Australian engineer, he should have ready access > to all this data... maybe $2500 is enough, maybe not... -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:41:56 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Is Your CH601XL/650 a 1320 lb Airplane or a 1041 lb Airplane From: "Sabrina" build it well maintain it well fly it within reasonable limits Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234712#234712 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:40:54 PM PST US From: "George Race" Subject: Zenith-List: Chat Room Reminder for "Digesters" Live Chat Room every Monday evening around 8:00 EST www.mykitairplane.com Click on the link on the page. George Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:55:08 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Is Your CH601XL/650 a 1320 lb Airplane or a 1041 lb Airplane perfect answer Jun -----Original Message----- >From: Sabrina >Sent: Mar 15, 2009 2:40 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Is Your CH601XL/650 a 1320 lb Airplane or a 1041 lb Airplane > > >build it well >maintain it well >fly it within reasonable limits > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234712#234712 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:32 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Is Your CH601XL/650 a 1320 lb Airplane or a 1041 lb Airplane the springs are there to smooth out any quick motions to the ailerons. elliminates a twitchy turn elliminates stiffness. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Bryan Martin >Sent: Mar 15, 2009 12:48 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Is Your CH601XL/650 a 1320 lb Airplane or a 1041 lb Airplane > > >The springs on the Cirrus are probably to help coordinate turns and >help its spin resistant characteristics. As I recall, the Cirrus >aircraft were exempted from much of the spin testing requirements >during certification because they incorporated many features to make >them spin resistant. The springs on the Cessna operate the nose-wheel >steering. Those springs aren't there to keep the cables properly >tensioned. > >Adding pulleys and springs to the aileron control system will add >unnecessary complexity and additional failure modes. If one of those >springs let go in flight, you might find yourself thoroughly screwed. > >If it turns out that there is a problem with the ailerons, the >simplest solution would be to counter-balance them. A few people have >already devised modifications for that. > >> >> Cirrus have rudders interconnected to the ailerons with springs. >> >> Cessna's have spring tensioned rudder cables. >> >> A lot of engineering was done on this issue in 2007: >> >> http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/airwd/ADfiles/UNDER/CIRRUS/CIRRUS-009.pdf >> >> If ZBAG is using an Australian engineer, he should have ready access >> to all this data... maybe $2500 is enough, maybe not... > > >-- >Bryan Martin >N61BM, CH 601 XL, >RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:08 PM PST US From: John Smith Subject: Zenith-List: Nylon For Canopy System In the canopy kit there are two 1/16" thick nylon pieces that I cannot find where they go onto.- These nylon pieces are not the canopy cable support fairleads (6C4-2) which are 1/8' thick.- Also, there are quite a bit of gaps between the square canopy side frames and panel side angles (6C1-1) at the canopy bolt hinge point and I wonder if there are any parts (such as s pacers) that go onto the canopy hing bolts between the square canopy side f rames and panel side angles (6C1-1) to reduce the gaps, thus, play at the h inge point?- =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:06 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Nylon For Canopy System I've seen thin nylon plates riveted to the vertical portion of 6C1-1 with countersunk holes and rivets just forward of the plane of the instrument panel. They were to keep the canopy frame from rubbing on 6C1-1 as the canopy came down. The top edges were beveled. I don't see then on a lot of XLs though. -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Smith Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 9:51 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Nylon For Canopy System In the canopy kit there are two 1/16" thick nylon pieces that I cannot find where they go onto. These nylon pieces are not the canopy cable support fairleads (6C4-2) which are 1/8' thick. Also, there are quite a bit of gaps between the square canopy side frames and panel side angles (6C1-1) at the canopy bolt hinge point and I wonder if there are any parts (such as spacers) that go onto the canopy hing bolts between the square canopy side frames and panel side angles (6C1-1) to reduce the gaps, thus, play at the hinge point? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.