---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 03/20/09: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:01 AM - Re: Ailerons (Ken Arnold) 2. 04:23 AM - Re: HOmeland security crap buggering GA (RClaggf4u@aol.com) 3. 04:37 AM - Re: HOmeland security crap buggering GA (ashontz) 4. 04:41 AM - Re: Re: HOmeland security crap buggering GA (RClaggf4u@aol.com) 5. 05:47 AM - Jihad Camps in the USA (since Homeland security was brought up) not Zenith related (Keith Ashcraft) 6. 07:20 AM - Re: Re: HOmeland security crap buggering GA (Juan Vega) 7. 02:49 PM - Re: Ailerons () 8. 03:06 PM - Re: Ailerons (wade jones) 9. 03:16 PM - Re: Re: HOmeland security crap buggering GA () 10. 03:55 PM - Re: Ailerons (Paul Mulwitz) 11. 05:42 PM - Re: Ailerons (Ronald Steele) 12. 07:35 PM - Re: Re: HOmeland security crap buggering GA (Bob Collins) 13. 09:27 PM - Re: Ailerons (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com) 14. 10:49 PM - Re: Ailerons (Paul Mulwitz) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:07 AM PST US From: "Ken Arnold" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons Hey Paul, Sounds like a plan! Remember, bigger is better. do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: paulrod36@msn.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:42 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons About a week ago I dropped in at my friendly Airparts, and looked through their stock, thinking in terms of pushpull tubes for my ailerons. I pulled out some tubes ranging from 1-1/4 down to 3/4, and then looked at SQUARE tubing as well. Pullin almost 12 feet of tube out of the racks, none of them were particularly easy to bend by hand, and, at the roughly 7 feet from bellcrank to fuselage skin, not of them had any appreciable sag. I suppose there might be some harmonics in a piece that long, but I very seriously doubt you'd get a tube to bend under aileron pressure until very near mach one - in which case you then have a very different concern. So, the plan is-- one length of pushpull rod from bellcrank to fuselage skin, a 6 to 8 inch inner splice held by a couple of AN=3 bolts, and an approx 21 inch tube from control stick to the other end of the inner splice. And, if I can lay hands on the appropriate size aluminum bar, and well-centered drilled and tapped holes in the bar, threadad ball rod ends to allow for adjustment, with locknuts to keep them that way. (And, square tubing even looks cool.) Paul Rodriguez ----- Original Message ----- From: ZodieRocket To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:35 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Ailerons Problem is that in the XL the span for a push rod is quite large and you have travel in a vertical as well as a horizontal range. With such a run, to make a system that can handle the load that the cables are capable of you would need to have a complicated bearing arrangement to support the push rod in both movements. I imagine that the system can be done safely with a complete change in which the way the controls presently work, but just adding a rod with a few fittings would not be able to handle the design loads that the cables can handle for a safe conversion. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac CH650 C-GOXL, CH701 Rotax 912, STOL CH750 Just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com/ www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger & Lina Hill Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 12:12 PM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Ailerons Well I have to wonder, why not just use Push rods instead of cables for the Ailerons? Then you never have to worry about cable slack. I have them on my HDS 601 and they work perfectly. Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeyoung65@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 10:31 AM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons My understanding of control surface flutter is it can be caused by control surfaces than can move without input forces. If they move upward due to ruff air they will then be forced downward due to the air load on them. They are then forced up ect until an input force is applied to stop the cycle. So be sure to check your cable tension and looseness of all connection. Jerry of Ga In a message dated 3/17/2009 8:47:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, bill_dom@yahoo.com writes: The way I understand it is that cable tension does work in preventing flutter, but relying in cable tension alone is not acceptable by the FAA because of the possibility of cable loosening up. This could be very critical if cables loosen up during the course of one flight, as already happened to a 601XL. As I say, this is the way I understand it. Meaning, I could be wrong and and would like to be clarified. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom --- On Tue, 3/17/09, roger lambert wrote: From: roger lambert Subject: Zenith-List: Ailerons To: "zenith-list@matronics.com" Date: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 8:38 AM It has been stated: Just because cable tension is not an acceptable means of preventing flutter in certified aircraft, does not mean that it does not work. It should be noted that many certificated aircraft, including those flying in Great Britain, have ailerons wihout external mass balanced ailerons. These include Piper Cubs, Aeroncas and, I believe, Grumman Cheetahs and Tigers. It also should be noted that in no crash/incident reported to date did the aileron cables fail, only that owners failed to maintain the cable tension. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:23:46 AM PST US From: RClaggf4u@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HOmeland security crap buggering GA They call this socialism. America as we knew it no longer exists. In a message dated 3/19/2009 10:37:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, soarmoore2@yahoo.com writes: Hi Andy, Better be careful, or the FAA may come after you for exhibiting unstable, antisocial (ist) behavior. After all, everything that our government (Can you believe the freedom-loving American electorate actually voted them into power, err.. office?) is doing is for the betterment of the majority of Americans who earn less than - whatever the number is this week. These certainly are interesting, and dangerous, times that we live in.... M2 Please don't archive, as I know it's off topic and I don't want to leave a trail. Oops, too late; the IRS/congress is already at the door. --- On Thu, 3/19/09, ashontz wrote: From: ashontz Subject: Zenith-List: HOmeland security crap buggering GA So is that it, our lives (at least building and flying are a life passion of mine) just come to a screeching halt now because an airliner was used as a weapon 8 years ago? Check the latest edition of e-hotline. They're getting close to making sure we're nothing but a nation of losers that sit around and watch reality tv. What if the goobermint proposed this type of intrusive lock down on how people operate their cars, or their sex lives, or had to swipe everytime they entered and exited their homes etc... At what point are people going to finally get effectively outraged at this sh!t? -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235316#235316 (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:47 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: HOmeland security crap buggering GA From: "ashontz" Sad isn't it? Seriously, what happens if they implement this crap. Next thing you won't be able to use a boat. I had to sit through a bogus a boater safety course a few years ago, after having been a boater/fisherman for 20 years or more. Anyway, the end of the course had a homeland security thing in it and it felt like sitting in some George Orwell 1984 trianing camp, the whole thrust of it was a "report on thy neighbor" theme. Easiest way to create a police state, get the people policing and ratting on each other. [quote="WClagg"]They call this socialism. America as we knew it no longer exists. In a message dated 3/19/2009 10:37:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, soarmoore2@yahoo.com writes: > Hi Andy, > > Better be careful, or the FAA may come after you for exhibiting unstable, antisocial (ist) behavior. After all, everything that our government (Can you believe the freedom-loving American electorate actually voted them into power, err.. office?) is doing is for the betterment of the majority of Americans who earn less than - whatever the number is this week. > > These certainly are interesting, and dangerous, times that we live in.... > > M2 > > Please don't archive, as I know it's off topic and I don't want to leave a trail. Oops, too late; the IRS/congress is already at the door. > > > --- On Thu, 3/19/09, ashontz wrote: > > > > From: ashontz > > Subject: HOmeland security crap buggering GA > > To: zenith-list@matronics..com > > Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 6:59 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > So is that it, our lives (at least building and flying are a life passion of > > > mine) just come to a screeching halt now because an airliner was used as a > > > weapon 8 years ago? Check the latest edition of e-hotline. They're getting > > > close to making sure we're nothing but a nation of losers that sit around > > > and watch reality tv. > > > > > > What if the goobermint proposed this type of intrusive lock down on how people > > > operate their cars, or their sex lives, or had to swipe everytime they entered > > > and exited their homes etc... At what point are people going to finally get > > > effectively outraged at this sh!t? > > > > > > -------- > > > Andy Shontz > > > > > > do not archive > > > > > > CH601XL - Corvair > > > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235316#235316 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com > > ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001). > [b] -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235342#235342 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:41:11 AM PST US From: RClaggf4u@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: HOmeland security crap buggering GA Yes it is sad, the terrorist accomplished their goals. Do not archive. In a message dated 3/20/2009 7:38:27 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashontz@nbme.org writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" Sad isn't it? Seriously, what happens if they implement this crap. Next thing you won't be able to use a boat. I had to sit through a bogus a boater safety course a few years ago, after having been a boater/fisherman for 20 years or more. Anyway, the end of the course had a homeland security thing in it and it felt like sitting in some George Orwell 1984 trianing camp, the whole thrust of it was a "report on thy neighbor" theme. Easiest way to create a police state, get the people policing and ratting on each other. [quote="WClagg"]They call this socialism. America as we knew it no longer exists. In a message dated 3/19/2009 10:37:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, soarmoore2@yahoo.com writes: > Hi Andy, > > Better be careful, or the FAA may come after you for exhibiting unstable, antisocial (ist) behavior. After all, everything that our government (Can you believe the freedom-loving American electorate actually voted them into power, err.. office?) is doing is for the betterment of the majority of Americans who earn less than - whatever the number is this week. > > These certainly are interesting, and dangerous, times that we live in.... > > M2 > > Please don't archive, as I know it's off topic and I don't want to leave a trail. Oops, too late; the IRS/congress is already at the door. > > > --- On Thu, 3/19/09, ashontz wrote: > > > > From: ashontz > > Subject: HOmeland security crap buggering GA > > To: zenith-list@matronics..com > > Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 6:59 PM > > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" > > > > > > > > > So is that it, our lives (at least building and flying are a life passion of > > > mine) just come to a screeching halt now because an airliner was used as a > > > weapon 8 years ago? Check the latest edition of e-hotline. They're getting > > > close to making sure we're nothing but a nation of losers that sit around > > > and watch reality tv. > > > > > > What if the goobermint proposed this type of intrusive lock down on how people > > > operate their cars, or their sex lives, or had to swipe everytime they entered > > > and exited their homes etc... At what point are people going to finally get > > > effectively outraged at this sh!t? > > > > > > -------- > > > Andy Shontz > > > > > > do not archive > > > > > > CH601XL - Corvair > > > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235316#235316 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com > > ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001). > [b] -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235342#235342 **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:47:48 AM PST US From: Keith Ashcraft Subject: Zenith-List: Jihad Camps in the USA (since Homeland security was brought up) not Zenith related All, I know this isn't releated to Zenith planes, but...... Since the Homeland Security issue was brought up, here is some more shocking news. Trout Creek Pass is just around 30-40 miles from my house. Way to scary. I don't want to be flying West of my house and get shot down by a trainee!!! Keith CH701 -- scratch (for the most part) N 38.9940 W 105.1305 Alt. 9,100' ***************************************************** Subject: Look what is going on in Buena Vista, CO! Did you see this when it originally aired on Fox News? In case you don't know, Trout Creek Pass , Colorado is between Hartsel and Buena Vista , just west of Antero Reservoir. Jihad camps in the USA Please watch the 7 min. video. They are training right under our noses. Americasnews.org Jihad Camps in America http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcJ_hhe1ip4 Currently 35 terrorist training camps spread across the USA and run by Sheikh Gilani from Pakistan . They are called "Soldiers of Allah" or "Jamaat ul-Fuqra" and are training in your own backyard. Some of their most active camps are: - Trout Creek Pass , Colorado (over 100 acres) - Red House, Virginia (over 120 Acres) - Mecca Circle, Wayne County , GA - Islamber , NY (considered their headquarters) - Holy Islamville , SC (another huge compound and extremely active) - Baladulla , CA (Huge and also extremely active) - A new one PA ( Wayne County ) - Fairfax , VA - York , SC - Hancock , NY - Deposit , NY - Springfield , MA - Philadelphia , PA - Hyattsville , MD - Bethany , WV - Meherrin , VA - Dover , TN - Commerce , GA - Jessup GA - Marion , AL - Talihina , OK - Houston , TX - Coldwater , MI - Buena Vista , CO - Oak Hill , CA - Onalska , WA ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:20 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: HOmeland security crap buggering GA thats pretty cool idea. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Sabrina >Sent: Mar 19, 2009 10:15 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: Re: HOmeland security crap buggering GA > > >We need to show them the value of general aviation... > >Here is just one idea: > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzI1b_nfAu8&feature=channel_page > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235317#235317 > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:49:07 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons Yeah, this is getting old. How about one more foray into wildness? We develop small two -way hydraulic cylinders, masters at the controls, slave cylinders at the control surfaces, use 1/4" inch plastic tubing to push red fluid back and forth, and step up beyond mere mechanicals altogether. Plasma-drive engines come later. Paul R ----- Original Message ----- From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 7:35 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons Paul, what your describing has been done and the photo sequence of how is somewhere out there on the web. Mark Townsend put it on 601.org some time back, but then he removed it for what ever reason. I'm tired of beating this horse so maybe somebody else can help you with Phase I & II of the XL Push Rod saga. Best of luck, Bill In a message dated 3/18/2009 6:47:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, paulrod36@msn.com writes: About a week ago I dropped in at my friendly Airparts, and looked through their stock, thinking in terms of pushpull tubes for my ailerons. I pulled out some tubes ranging from 1-1/4 down to 3/4, and then looked at SQUARE tubing as well. Pullin almost 12 feet of tube out of the racks, none of them were particularly easy to bend by hand, and, at the roughly 7 feet from bellcrank to fuselage skin, not of them had any appreciable sag. I suppose there might be some harmonics in a piece that long, but I very seriously doubt you'd get a tube to bend under aileron pressure until very near mach one - in which case you then have a very different concern. So, the plan is-- one length of pushpull rod from bellcrank to fuselage skin, a 6 to 8 inch inner splice held by a couple of AN=3 bolts, and an approx 21 inch tube from control stick to the other end of the inner splice. And, if I can lay hands on the appropriate size aluminum bar, and well-centered drilled and tapped holes in the bar, threadad ball rod ends to allow for adjustment, with locknuts to keep them that way. (And, square tubing even looks cool.) Paul Rodriguez ----- Original Message ----- From: ZodieRocket To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:35 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Ailerons Problem is that in the XL the span for a push rod is quite large and you have travel in a vertical as well as a horizontal range. With such a run, to make a system that can handle the load that the cables are capable of you would need to have a complicated bearing arrangement to support the push rod in both movements. I imagine that the system can be done safely with a complete change in which the way the controls presently work, but just adding a rod with a few fittings would not be able to handle the design loads that the cables can handle for a safe conversion. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac CH650 C-GOXL, CH701 Rotax 912, STOL CH750 Just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com/ www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger & Lina Hill Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 12:12 PM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Ailerons Well I have to wonder, why not just use Push rods instead of cables for the Ailerons? Then you never have to worry about cable slack. I have them on my HDS 601 and they work perfectly. Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeyoung65@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 10:31 AM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons My understanding of control surface flutter is it can be caused by control surfaces than can move without input forces. If they move upward due to ruff air they will then be forced downward due to the air load on them. They are then forced up ect until an input force is applied to stop the cycle. So be sure to check your cable tension and looseness of all connection. Jerry of Ga In a message dated 3/17/2009 8:47:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, bill_dom@yahoo.com writes: The way I understand it is that cable tension does work in preventing flutter, but relying in cable tension alone is not acceptable by the FAA because of the possibility of cable loosening up. This could be very critical if cables loosen up during the course of one flight, as already happened to a 601XL. As I say, this is the way I understand it. Meaning, I could be wrong and and would like to be clarified. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom --- On Tue, 3/17/09, roger lambert wrote: From: roger lambert Subject: Zenith-List: Ailerons To: "zenith-list@matronics.com" Date: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 8:38 AM It has been stated: Just because cable tension is not an acceptable means of preventing flutter in certified aircraft, does not mean that it does not work. It should be noted that many certificated aircraft, including those flying in Great Britain, have ailerons wihout external mass balanced ailerons. These include Piper Cubs, Aeroncas and, I believe, Grumman Cheetahs and Tigers. It also should be noted that in no crash/incident reported to date did the aileron cables fail, only that owners failed to maintain the cable tension. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?Zenith-List .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:06:12 PM PST US From: "wade jones" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons With the mishaps the 601XL has had ,is there any record of any accidents without the aileron trim . Wade Jones South Texas 601XL Franklin 0-235 ----- Original Message ----- From: paulrod36@msn.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 4:47 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons Yeah, this is getting old. How about one more foray into wildness? We develop small two -way hydraulic cylinders, masters at the controls, slave cylinders at the control surfaces, use 1/4" inch plastic tubing to push red fluid back and forth, and step up beyond mere mechanicals altogether. Plasma-drive engines come later. Paul R ----- Original Message ----- From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 7:35 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons Paul, what your describing has been done and the photo sequence of how is somewhere out there on the web. Mark Townsend put it on 601.org some time back, but then he removed it for what ever reason. I'm tired of beating this horse so maybe somebody else can help you with Phase I & II of the XL Push Rod saga. Best of luck, Bill In a message dated 3/18/2009 6:47:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, paulrod36@msn.com writes: About a week ago I dropped in at my friendly Airparts, and looked through their stock, thinking in terms of pushpull tubes for my ailerons. I pulled out some tubes ranging from 1-1/4 down to 3/4, and then looked at SQUARE tubing as well. Pullin almost 12 feet of tube out of the racks, none of them were particularly easy to bend by hand, and, at the roughly 7 feet from bellcrank to fuselage skin, not of them had any appreciable sag. I suppose there might be some harmonics in a piece that long, but I very seriously doubt you'd get a tube to bend under aileron pressure until very near mach one - in which case you then have a very different concern. So, the plan is-- one length of pushpull rod from bellcrank to fuselage skin, a 6 to 8 inch inner splice held by a couple of AN=3 bolts, and an approx 21 inch tube from control stick to the other end of the inner splice. And, if I can lay hands on the appropriate size aluminum bar, and well-centered drilled and tapped holes in the bar, threadad ball rod ends to allow for adjustment, with locknuts to keep them that way. (And, square tubing even looks cool.) Paul Rodriguez ----- Original Message ----- From: ZodieRocket To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:35 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Ailerons Problem is that in the XL the span for a push rod is quite large and you have travel in a vertical as well as a horizontal range. With such a run, to make a system that can handle the load that the cables are capable of you would need to have a complicated bearing arrangement to support the push rod in both movements. I imagine that the system can be done safely with a complete change in which the way the controls presently work, but just adding a rod with a few fittings would not be able to handle the design loads that the cables can handle for a safe conversion. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac CH650 C-GOXL, CH701 Rotax 912, STOL CH750 Just started www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com/ www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger & Lina Hill Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 12:12 PM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Ailerons Well I have to wonder, why not just use Push rods instead of cables for the Ailerons? Then you never have to worry about cable slack. I have them on my HDS 601 and they work perfectly. Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeyoung65@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 10:31 AM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons My understanding of control surface flutter is it can be caused by control surfaces than can move without input forces. If they move upward due to ruff air they will then be forced downward due to the air load on them. They are then forced up ect until an input force is applied to stop the cycle. So be sure to check your cable tension and looseness of all connection. Jerry of Ga In a message dated 3/17/2009 8:47:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, bill_dom@yahoo.com writes: The way I understand it is that cable tension does work in preventing flutter, but relying in cable tension alone is not acceptable by the FAA because of the possibility of cable loosening up. This could be very critical if cables loosen up during the course of one flight, as already happened to a 601XL. As I say, this is the way I understand it. Meaning, I could be wrong and and would like to be clarified. William Dominguez Zodiac 601XL Plans Miami Florida http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom --- On Tue, 3/17/09, roger lambert wrote: From: roger lambert Subject: Zenith-List: Ailerons To: "zenith-list@matronics.com" Date: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 8:38 AM It has been stated: Just because cable tension is not an acceptable means of preventing flutter in certified aircraft, does not mean that it does not work. It should be noted that many certificated aircraft, including those flying in Great Britain, have ailerons wihout external mass balanced ailerons. These include Piper Cubs, Aeroncas and, I believe, Grumman Cheetahs and Tigers. It also should be noted that in no crash/incident reported to date did the aileron cables fail, only that owners failed to maintain the cable tension. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron.ma tronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:16:11 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: HOmeland security crap buggering GA Andy, Andy, Andy.....don't you understand this is all for your own good? It's all to make this country safer, more gentle, and to keep people from being distressed by those who would say hurtful things. Obviously, you just don't get it, so we'll have to report you to our leaders, and make an appointment for you to attend the re-education camp. Paul R DO NOT ARCHIVE (they may think I'm being sarcastic, and come after me, too) ----- Original Message ----- From: ashontz To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 6:35 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: HOmeland security crap buggering GA > Sad isn't it? Seriously, what happens if they implement this crap. Next thing you won't be able to use a boat. I had to sit through a bogus a boater safety course a few years ago, after having been a boater/fisherman for 20 years or more. Anyway, the end of the course had a homeland security thing in it and it felt like sitting in some George Orwell 1984 trianing camp, the whole thrust of it was a "report on thy neighbor" theme. Easiest way to create a police state, get the people policing and ratting on each other. [quote="WClagg"]They call this socialism. America as we knew it no longer exists. In a message dated 3/19/2009 10:37:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, soarmoore2@yahoo.com writes: > Hi Andy, > > Better be careful, or the FAA may come after you for exhibiting unstable, antisocial (ist) behavior. After all, everything that our government (Can you believe the freedom-loving American electorate actually voted them into power, err.. office?) is doing is for the betterment of the majority of Americans who earn less than - whatever the number is this week. > > These certainly are interesting, and dangerous, times that we live in.... > > M2 > > Please don't archive, as I know it's off topic and I don't want to leave a trail. Oops, too late; the IRS/congress is already at the door. > > > --- On Thu, 3/19/09, ashontz wrote: > > > > From: ashontz > > Subject: HOmeland security crap buggering GA > > To: zenith-list@matronics..com > > Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 6:59 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > So is that it, our lives (at least building and flying are a life passion of > > > mine) just come to a screeching halt now because an airliner was used as a > > > weapon 8 years ago? Check the latest edition of e-hotline. They're getting > > > close to making sure we're nothing but a nation of losers that sit around > > > and watch reality tv. > > > > > > What if the goobermint proposed this type of intrusive lock down on how people > > > operate their cars, or their sex lives, or had to swipe everytime they entered > > > and exited their homes etc... At what point are people going to finally get > > > effectively outraged at this sh!t? > > > > > > -------- > > > Andy Shontz > > > > > > do not archive > > > > > > CH601XL - Corvair > > > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235316#235316 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?Zenith-Listhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List> > > .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com > > ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001). > [b] -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235342#235342 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:55:48 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons Why wimp out. Let's do it like the big boys do. Microprocessor with sensors at the Pilot's seat, fiber optic cable for networking between the pilot and the computers at the various control surface computers, and a whole bunch of software to control it all. Then we would have a real fly-by-wire setup just like the Boeing 777. (Oops, those are the ones that stop listening to pilot commands at random intervals . . . ) Paul XL getting close do not archive At 02:47 PM 3/20/2009, you wrote: >Yeah, this is getting old. How about one more foray into >wildness? We develop small two -way hydraulic cylinders, masters at >the controls, slave cylinders at the control surfaces, use 1/4" inch >plastic tubing to push red fluid back and forth, and step up beyond >mere mechanicals altogether. Plasma-drive engines come later. > >Paul R ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:04 PM PST US From: Ronald Steele Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons I was thinking strain gauges on the spars, maybe on the ailerons... Ron do not archive On Mar 20, 2009, at 6:53 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote: > Why wimp out. Let's do it like the big boys do. > > Microprocessor with sensors at the Pilot's seat, fiber optic cable > for networking between the pilot and the computers at the various > control surface computers, and a whole bunch of software to control > it all. Then we would have a real fly-by-wire setup just like the > Boeing 777. (Oops, those are the ones that stop listening to pilot > commands at random intervals . . . ) > > Paul > XL getting close > do not archive > > At 02:47 PM 3/20/2009, you wrote: >> Yeah, this is getting old. How about one more foray into wildness? >> We develop small two -way hydraulic cylinders, masters at the >> controls, slave cylinders at the control surfaces, use 1/4" inch >> plastic tubing to push red fluid back and forth, and step up beyond >> mere mechanicals altogether. Plasma-drive engines come later. >> >> Paul R > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:38 PM PST US From: Bob Collins Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: HOmeland security crap buggering GA Paul, Thankfully, email reader, Thunderbird, labeled your message an "email scam". ;-) Bob Collins Sunnyvale CA USA paulrod36@msn.com wrote: > Andy, Andy, Andy.....don't you understand this is all for your own > good? It's all to make this country safer, more gentle, and to keep > people from being distressed by those who would say hurtful things. > Obviously, you just don't get it, so we'll have to report you to our > leaders, and make an appointment for you to attend the re-education camp. > > Paul R > DO NOT ARCHIVE (they may think I'm being sarcastic, and come after me, > too) > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* ashontz > *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Friday, March 20, 2009 6:35 AM > *Subject:* Zenith-List: Re: HOmeland security crap buggering GA > > > > > Sad isn't it? Seriously, what happens if they implement this crap. > Next thing you won't be able to use a boat. I had to sit through a > bogus a boater safety course a few years ago, after having been a > boater/fisherman for 20 years or more. Anyway, the end of the > course had a homeland security thing in it and it felt like > sitting in some George Orwell 1984 trianing camp, the whole thrust > of it was a "report on thy neighbor" theme. > > Easiest way to create a police state, get the people policing and > ratting on each other. > > [quote="WClagg"]They call this socialism. America as we knew it no > longer exists. > > In a message dated 3/19/2009 10:37:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight > Time, soarmoore2@yahoo.com writes: > > > Hi Andy, > > > > Better be careful, or the FAA may come after you for > exhibiting unstable, antisocial (ist) behavior. After > all, everything that our government (Can you believe the > freedom-loving American electorate actually voted them > into power, err.. office?) is doing is for the betterment > of the majority of Americans who earn less than - > whatever the number is this week. > > > > These certainly are interesting, and dangerous, times > that we live in.... > > > > M2 > > > > Please don't archive, as I know it's off topic and I > don't want to leave a trail. Oops, too late; the > IRS/congress is already at the door. > > > > > > --- On Thu, 3/19/09, ashontz wrote: > > > > > > > From: ashontz > > > Subject: HOmeland security crap buggering GA > > > To: zenith-list@matronics..com > > > Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 6:59 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So is that it, our lives (at least building and flying are a > life passion of > > > > mine) just come to a screeching halt now because an airliner > was used as a > > > > weapon 8 years ago? Check the latest edition of e-hotline. > They're getting > > > > close to making sure we're nothing but a nation of losers > that sit around > > > > and watch reality tv. > > > > > > > > What if the goobermint proposed this type of intrusive lock > down on how people > > > > operate their cars, or their sex lives, or had to swipe > everytime they entered > > > > and exited their homes etc... At what point are people going > to finally get > > > > effectively outraged at this sh!t? > > > > > > > > -------- > > > > Andy Shontz > > > > > > > > do not archive > > > > > > > > CH601XL - Corvair > > > > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235316#235316 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > > > > .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com > > > > ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > > > > > > Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or > less (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001). > > > [b] > > > -------- > Andy Shontz > > do not archive > > CH601XL - Corvair > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235342#235342 > > > http://www.matronnbsp; via the Web > title=http://forums.matronics.com/ > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > _p; generous bsp; > title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c================ > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:07 PM PST US From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons Ron, Paul, you guys just are not taking this thing seriously enough. Your only hope for redemption is to drink heavily and often. Best of luck to you and I hope to meet you at the SnF BBQ, Bill of Georgia "Fly for Peace" In a message dated 3/20/2009 8:42:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rsteele@rjsit.com writes: I was thinking strain gauges on the spars, maybe on the ailerons... Ron do not archive On Mar 20, 2009, at 6:53 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote: Why wimp out. Let's do it like the big boys do. Microprocessor with sensors at the Pilot's seat, fiber optic cable for networking between the pilot and the computers at the various control surface computers, and a whole bunch of software to control it all. Then we would have a real fly-by-wire setup just like the Boeing 777. (Oops, those are the ones that stop listening to pilot commands at random intervals . . . ) Paul XL getting close do not archive At 02:47 PM 3/20/2009, you wrote: Yeah, this is getting old. How about one more foray into wildness? We develop small two -way hydraulic cylinders, masters at the controls, slave cylinders at the control surfaces, use 1/4" inch plastic tubing to push red fluid back and forth, and step up beyond mere mechanicals altogether. Plasma-drive engines come later. Paul R href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:53 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Ailerons Hi Bill, I'd love to meet you, but not this year at the far corner of the country. I live in Washington state perhaps 4,000 miles from SnF. And, my plane isn't flying yet. That could be different next year. I hope to get into phase 1 testing before Summer and through it before the rains start here again in October. Have fun, Paul XL getting close do not archive At 09:24 PM 3/20/2009, you wrote: >Ron, Paul, you guys just are not taking this thing seriously enough. >Your only hope for redemption is to drink heavily and often. Best of >luck to you and I hope to meet you at the SnF BBQ, Bill of Georgia >"Fly for Peace" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.