Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:52 AM - Facet pump and vapor lock. (601corvair)
2. 06:18 AM - Re: Facet pump and vapor lock. (Ashley)
3. 07:22 AM - Re: Facet pump and vapor lock. (LarryMcFarland)
4. 08:07 AM - Re: Facet pump and vapor lock. (Dave Austin)
5. 08:08 AM - Re: Help choosing a design (ejohns)
6. 09:34 AM - Re: CONTACTORS (AZFlyer)
7. 03:35 PM - Re: Y-cord construction (Bill Naumuk)
8. 04:17 PM - Re: Y-cord construction (Gig Giacona)
9. 05:06 PM - Re: Re: Y-cord construction (Bill Naumuk)
10. 05:21 PM - facet pump vapor lock follow up question (601corvair)
11. 06:49 PM - Re: facet pump vapor lock follow up question (steve)
12. 06:59 PM - Re: facet pump vapor lock follow up question (Ashley)
13. 07:59 PM - Re: facet pump vapor lock follow up question (Bryan Martin)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Facet pump and vapor lock. |
Facet pump and vapor lock.
-
It would seem the most cited way to plumb a covair driven
wing tank only 601 is with 2 in series facet fuel pumps on the firewall.
- Logic would suggest this instillation
(sucking vs pumping fuel) is susceptible to vapor lock.- My question is:
has anyone
experienced vapor
lock with a facet pump? If so, what was the instillation and flying
conditions.- There are lots of plumbing
and weight advantages to this instillation (pump redundancy, oil pressure
driven fuel shut off, reduced weight, access to all the
fuel all the time).
Thanks for your in put.- Phill Hartig
=0A=0A=0A
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Facet pump and vapor lock. |
My 601XL has an 0-200 with no mechanical pump. I use the two facet
solution on the firewall and have not had a problem. Worked great last
summer when outside temps were near 100.
Floyd Wilkes
----- Original Message -----
From: 601corvair
To: corvaircraft@mylist.net ; Zenith list
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 7:50 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Facet pump and vapor lock.
Facet pump and vapor lock.
It would seem the most cited way to plumb a covair driven wing
tank
only 601 is with 2 in series facet fuel pumps on the firewall.
Logic would suggest this instillation (sucking vs pumping
fuel)
is susceptible to vapor lock. My question is: has anyone
experienced vapor lock with a facet pump? If so, what was the
instillation and flying conditions. There are lots of plumbing
and
weight advantages to this instillation (pump redundancy, oil
pressure driven fuel shut off, reduced weight, access to all the
fuel all the time). Thanks for your in put. Phill Hartig
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Facet pump and vapor lock. |
Phill,
I've got two facet pumps in parallel on my firewall and they work well
independently or together.
The advantage of this is one pump cannot get clogged and shut down the
other. I normally take off with two and
run on one. If the one leading in serial order quits, do you increase
the odds of vapor lock? It would seem so.
130 hours and running.
Larry McFarland 601HDS
601corvair wrote:
>
> Facet pump and vapor lock.
>
>
>
> It would seem the most cited way to plumb a covair driven wing tank
>
> only 601 is with 2 in series facet fuel pumps on the firewall.
>
> Logic would suggest this instillation (sucking vs pumping fuel)
>
> is susceptible to vapor lock. My question is: has anyone
>
> experienced vapor lock with a facet pump? If so, what was the
>
> instillation and flying conditions. There are lots of plumbing and
>
> weight advantages to this instillation (pump redundancy, oil
>
> pressure driven fuel shut off, reduced weight, access to all the
>
> fuel all the time). Thanks for your in put. Phill Hartig
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Facet pump and vapor lock. |
Won't two pumps in series give you double the pressure? That would not
work for a bing carb engine.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Help choosing a design |
Chris
Thank you for your response it is very helpful.
Ernie
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238317#238317
Message 6
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List,
Thanks for all the feedback on the contactor question. Got what I need.
signed,
Electrically Challenged (Mike)
--------
Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com
601 XL, 3300, Dynon
Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238333#238333
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Y-cord construction |
Larry-
My problem is I have to convert from the 4 conductor helicopter jacks.
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "LarryMcFarland" <larry@macsmachine.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Y-cord construction
>
> Bill,
> I put the jacks in a box behind the passenger side on the rear shelf. This
> enables leaving it hooked up and only having
> to put on the head set and go. The diagram I used for the A200 radio,
> connection with the plugs and jacks are described
> in the attached drawing link. (See bottom of the drawing)
> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/primary-wiring-(SH-2).gif
> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/jackbox.gif
> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/jackbox2.gif
> My intercom is a Sigtronics A-400 and all works very well.
> The wiring diagram shows color of wires and connections for mac push to
> talk Y-stick to all other connections
> I hope it's perhaps useful,
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
>
> Bill Naumuk wrote:
>> All-
>> I ordered a panel mount jack for my headphones and they sent a Y-cord
>> style jack and barrel. Non returnable.
>> I'd like to pose some questions to one of our more qualified
>> electrical people as to how to make lemonade out of lemons.
>> Please contact me off-list. Thanks.
>> Bill Naumuk
>> Townville, Pa.
>> HDS 601MG/Corvair 95%
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Y-cord construction |
naumuk(at)windstream.net wrote:
> All-
> I ordered a panel mount jack for my headphones and they sent a Y-cord style
jack and barrel. Non returnable.
> I'd like to pose some questions to one of our more qualified electrical
people as to how to make lemonade out of lemons.
> Please contact me off-list. Thanks.
> Bill Naumuk
> Townville, Pa.
> HDS 601MG/Corvair 95%
>
Who did you order from? If they sent you the wrong thing they really ought to replace
it. But if they sent you helo jacks there really isn't a reason you can't
use them and just use adapters on your headsets. Of course it might just be
cheaper to take the hit and order what you want from a company that is legit.
Really though don't forget to tell us who you ordered from so no one else will
make the mistake of ordering from them.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238393#238393
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Y-cord construction |
ACS. I have a beautiful David Clark helo headset, I wanted panel mount jacks
and got Y-cord.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 7:16 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Y-cord construction
>
>
> naumuk(at)windstream.net wrote:
>> All-
>> I ordered a panel mount jack for my headphones and they sent a
>> Y-cord style jack and barrel. Non returnable.
>> I'd like to pose some questions to one of our more qualified
>> electrical people as to how to make lemonade out of lemons.
>> Please contact me off-list. Thanks.
>> Bill Naumuk
>> Townville, Pa.
>> HDS 601MG/Corvair 95%
>>
>
>
> Who did you order from? If they sent you the wrong thing they really ought
> to replace it. But if they sent you helo jacks there really isn't a reason
> you can't use them and just use adapters on your headsets. Of course it
> might just be cheaper to take the hit and order what you want from a
> company that is legit.
>
> Really though don't forget to tell us who you ordered from so no one else
> will make the mistake of ordering from them.
>
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238393#238393
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | facet pump vapor lock follow up question |
Thanks to all who responded to my original post.- But let me be more spec
ific in my
concerns and situation.- First we have a corvair and an MA3 carb from a C
essna 150.
Second our concern is vapor lock in the fuel system from the tank to the ca
rb.
For instance, in an UN coordinated turn - like in an emergency situation wh
en you are
NOT coordinated in a properly banked turn, the pump will be asked to draw f
uel up-hill
from the lower wing tank;- such as in a barrel roll like maneuver or unus
ual attitude
-situation.-- Pumps at the centerline of the aircraft must draw fuel
against the vertical
distance to the tank, AND against he centrifugal force pushing the fuel tow
ard the
wingtip.
In an emergency, who knows what
attitude the aircraft will be
in.- My question is-
. . .- Is
there a danger in trying to suck fuel all the way to the firewall, through
the selector valve, through the- gascolator, and through a (potentially)
dead fuel pump to get to a working
pump located 12" away from the carb ??? Chris Heinz, has the pumps in the w
ings - he's
-the aircraft- designer.- However, the design also calls for a rotex
engine, which I believe
has a- mechanical pump at the engine to back up the single electrical pum
p in each wing.
>From a simple physics standpoint, it seems like you should push the fuel.
- However, in
this situation sucking fuel will allow fuel pump redundancy with the same n
umber of
-pumps, if the pumps suck rather than push fuel.- We also have the opti
on of using
electrical pumps in the wings to bring pressurized fuel through the cabin,
to a valve,
-through the valve to the gascolator directly to the carb, or to- the
mechanical corvair
fuel
pump in
parallel and then to the carb.- Obviously, the mechanical pump adds weig
ht forward and has some fuel weeping issues.
Any thoughts on this?- Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill?
-It is easier to address this now in the garage than later at the airport
, or at altitude.
Thanks again.- Phill Hartig
=0A=0A=0A
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: facet pump vapor lock follow up question |
Never saw a Chris design showing the pump in the wing..
Maybe I missed it somewhere.
The low wing Pipers that I ve owned never had a pump in the wings
either.
Hummmmm.
S.
----- Original Message -----
From: 601corvair
To: corvaircraft@mylist.net ; Zenith list
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 5:20 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: facet pump vapor lock follow up question
Thanks to all who responded to my original post. But let me be
more specific in my
concerns and situation. First we have a corvair and an MA3 carb
from a Cessna 150.
Second our concern is vapor lock in the fuel system from the
tank to the carb.
For instance, in an UN coordinated turn - like in an emergency
situation when you are
NOT coordinated in a properly banked turn, the pump will be
asked to draw fuel up-hill
from the lower wing tank; such as in a barrel roll like
maneuver or unusual attitude
situation. Pumps at the centerline of the aircraft must draw
fuel against the vertical
distance to the tank, AND against he centrifugal force pushing
the fuel toward the
wingtip.
In an emergency, who knows what attitude the aircraft will be
in. My question is . . . Is
there a danger in trying to suck fuel all the way to the
firewall, through the selector valve, through the gascolator, and
through a (potentially) dead fuel pump to get to a working
pump located 12" away from the carb ??? Chris Heinz, has the
pumps in the wings - he's
the aircraft designer. However, the design also calls for a
rotex engine, which I believe
has a mechanical pump at the engine to back up the single
electrical pump in each wing.
From a simple physics standpoint, it seems like you should push
the fuel. However, in
this situation sucking fuel will allow fuel pump redundancy with
the same number of
pumps, if the pumps suck rather than push fuel. We also have
the option of using
electrical pumps in the wings to bring pressurized fuel through
the cabin, to a valve,
through the valve to the gascolator directly to the carb, or to
the mechanical corvair
fuel pump in parallel and then to the carb. Obviously, the
mechanical pump adds weight forward and has some fuel weeping issues.
Any thoughts on this? Am I making a mountain out of a mole
hill?
It is easier to address this now in the garage than later at
the airport, or at altitude.
Thanks again. Phill Hartig
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: facet pump vapor lock follow up question |
Phil,
I believe you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Per the specs, they are self priming to 18 inches so in theory they
could be located above the fuel.
I know on my first power up with no fuel in the lines, they produced
pressure in approx 2 seconds.
If you are so un coordinated as you suggest, the fuel could slosh to the
outside of the tank and unport the inlet.
In this case, no matter where the pump is, it will not work.
In the Piper Cherokee line, the pumps (electric and engine driven), are
forward of the fire wall and mounted higher then
the electric ones on the 601. I am quite certain that if this was a
problem, the FAA would not have certified it.
I know the pumps on the firewall have been working just fine in my 601
but as you are the builder and would be happier
with pressurized fuel in the cockpit, build it that way.
Floyd Wilkes
----- Original Message -----
From: 601corvair
To: corvaircraft@mylist.net ; Zenith list
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 7:20 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: facet pump vapor lock follow up question
Thanks to all who responded to my original post. But let me be
more specific in my
concerns and situation. First we have a corvair and an MA3 carb
from a Cessna 150.
Second our concern is vapor lock in the fuel system from the
tank to the carb.
For instance, in an UN coordinated turn - like in an emergency
situation when you are
NOT coordinated in a properly banked turn, the pump will be
asked to draw fuel up-hill
from the lower wing tank; such as in a barrel roll like
maneuver or unusual attitude
situation. Pumps at the centerline of the aircraft must draw
fuel against the vertical
distance to the tank, AND against he centrifugal force pushing
the fuel toward the
wingtip.
In an emergency, who knows what attitude the aircraft will be
in. My question is . . . Is
there a danger in trying to suck fuel all the way to the
firewall, through the selector valve, through the gascolator, and
through a (potentially) dead fuel pump to get to a working
pump located 12" away from the carb ??? Chris Heinz, has the
pumps in the wings - he's
the aircraft designer. However, the design also calls for a
rotex engine, which I believe
has a mechanical pump at the engine to back up the single
electrical pump in each wing.
From a simple physics standpoint, it seems like you should push
the fuel. However, in
this situation sucking fuel will allow fuel pump redundancy with
the same number of
pumps, if the pumps suck rather than push fuel. We also have
the option of using
electrical pumps in the wings to bring pressurized fuel through
the cabin, to a valve,
through the valve to the gascolator directly to the carb, or to
the mechanical corvair
fuel pump in parallel and then to the carb. Obviously, the
mechanical pump adds weight forward and has some fuel weeping issues.
Any thoughts on this? Am I making a mountain out of a mole
hill?
It is easier to address this now in the garage than later at
the airport, or at altitude.
Thanks again. Phill Hartig
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: facet pump vapor lock follow up question |
> For instance, in an UN coordinated turn - like in an emergency
> situation when you are
> NOT coordinated in a properly banked turn, the pump will be asked to
> draw fuel up-hill
> from the lower wing tank; such as in a barrel roll like maneuver or
> unusual attitude
> situation. Pumps at the centerline of the aircraft must draw fuel
> against the vertical
> distance to the tank, AND against he centrifugal force pushing the
> fuel toward the
> wingtip.
In this case, the fuel will be pulled away from the tank outlet port
and the pumps will be sucking air anyway.
Personally, I would put the pumps as low in the system as possible and
avoid any significant restrictions in the lines on the suction side of
the pumps. Any restriction to flow will cause a pressure drop in a
flowing fluid and the lower the pressure, the lower the vaporization
temperature of the fuel. I would put the pumps in parallel so you will
never be sucking through a dead pump. Most Facet pumps allow so little
back flow that separate check valves are not necessary for two pumps
in parallel. The gascolator is not a significant restriction to flow
so I wouldn't worry too much about putting pumps downstream of that. A
filter, if used, should be placed downstream of the pumps because a
partially clogged filter can significantly restrict fuel flow. Keep
the fuel on the suction side of the pumps as cool as possible. Put
firesleeve insulation on the fuel lines in the engine compartment to
keep them cool. Another point to keep in mind: avgas is much less
prone to vapor lock than auto gas. If you only plan on using avgas,
you don't have to worry as much about vapor lock. Also, auto gas
varies in composition from winter to summer. Auto gas sold in the
winter is more easily vaporized than summer auto gas.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
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