---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 04/08/09: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:52 AM - Facet pump and vapor lock. (601corvair) 2. 06:18 AM - Re: Facet pump and vapor lock. (Ashley) 3. 07:22 AM - Re: Facet pump and vapor lock. (LarryMcFarland) 4. 08:07 AM - Re: Facet pump and vapor lock. (Dave Austin) 5. 08:08 AM - Re: Help choosing a design (ejohns) 6. 09:34 AM - Re: CONTACTORS (AZFlyer) 7. 03:35 PM - Re: Y-cord construction (Bill Naumuk) 8. 04:17 PM - Re: Y-cord construction (Gig Giacona) 9. 05:06 PM - Re: Re: Y-cord construction (Bill Naumuk) 10. 05:21 PM - facet pump vapor lock follow up question (601corvair) 11. 06:49 PM - Re: facet pump vapor lock follow up question (steve) 12. 06:59 PM - Re: facet pump vapor lock follow up question (Ashley) 13. 07:59 PM - Re: facet pump vapor lock follow up question (Bryan Martin) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:44 AM PST US From: 601corvair Subject: Zenith-List: Facet pump and vapor lock. Facet pump and vapor lock. - It would seem the most cited way to plumb a covair driven wing tank only 601 is with 2 in series facet fuel pumps on the firewall. - Logic would suggest this instillation (sucking vs pumping fuel) is susceptible to vapor lock.- My question is: has anyone experienced vapor lock with a facet pump? If so, what was the instillation and flying conditions.- There are lots of plumbing and weight advantages to this instillation (pump redundancy, oil pressure driven fuel shut off, reduced weight, access to all the fuel all the time). Thanks for your in put.- Phill Hartig =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:37 AM PST US From: "Ashley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Facet pump and vapor lock. My 601XL has an 0-200 with no mechanical pump. I use the two facet solution on the firewall and have not had a problem. Worked great last summer when outside temps were near 100. Floyd Wilkes ----- Original Message ----- From: 601corvair To: corvaircraft@mylist.net ; Zenith list Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 7:50 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Facet pump and vapor lock. Facet pump and vapor lock. It would seem the most cited way to plumb a covair driven wing tank only 601 is with 2 in series facet fuel pumps on the firewall. Logic would suggest this instillation (sucking vs pumping fuel) is susceptible to vapor lock. My question is: has anyone experienced vapor lock with a facet pump? If so, what was the instillation and flying conditions. There are lots of plumbing and weight advantages to this instillation (pump redundancy, oil pressure driven fuel shut off, reduced weight, access to all the fuel all the time). Thanks for your in put. Phill Hartig ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:02 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Facet pump and vapor lock. Phill, I've got two facet pumps in parallel on my firewall and they work well independently or together. The advantage of this is one pump cannot get clogged and shut down the other. I normally take off with two and run on one. If the one leading in serial order quits, do you increase the odds of vapor lock? It would seem so. 130 hours and running. Larry McFarland 601HDS 601corvair wrote: > > Facet pump and vapor lock. > > > > It would seem the most cited way to plumb a covair driven wing tank > > only 601 is with 2 in series facet fuel pumps on the firewall. > > Logic would suggest this instillation (sucking vs pumping fuel) > > is susceptible to vapor lock. My question is: has anyone > > experienced vapor lock with a facet pump? If so, what was the > > instillation and flying conditions. There are lots of plumbing and > > weight advantages to this instillation (pump redundancy, oil > > pressure driven fuel shut off, reduced weight, access to all the > > fuel all the time). Thanks for your in put. Phill Hartig > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:17 AM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Facet pump and vapor lock. Won't two pumps in series give you double the pressure? That would not work for a bing carb engine. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:09 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Help choosing a design From: "ejohns" Chris Thank you for your response it is very helpful. Ernie Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238317#238317 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:34:42 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: CONTACTORS From: "AZFlyer" List, Thanks for all the feedback on the contactor question. Got what I need. signed, Electrically Challenged (Mike) -------- Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com 601 XL, 3300, Dynon Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238333#238333 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:35:00 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Y-cord construction Larry- My problem is I have to convert from the 4 conductor helicopter jacks. Bill do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryMcFarland" Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:20 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Y-cord construction > > Bill, > I put the jacks in a box behind the passenger side on the rear shelf. This > enables leaving it hooked up and only having > to put on the head set and go. The diagram I used for the A200 radio, > connection with the plugs and jacks are described > in the attached drawing link. (See bottom of the drawing) > http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/primary-wiring-(SH-2).gif > http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/jackbox.gif > http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/jackbox2.gif > My intercom is a Sigtronics A-400 and all works very well. > The wiring diagram shows color of wires and connections for mac push to > talk Y-stick to all other connections > I hope it's perhaps useful, > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > > Bill Naumuk wrote: >> All- >> I ordered a panel mount jack for my headphones and they sent a Y-cord >> style jack and barrel. Non returnable. >> I'd like to pose some questions to one of our more qualified >> electrical people as to how to make lemonade out of lemons. >> Please contact me off-list. Thanks. >> Bill Naumuk >> Townville, Pa. >> HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:17:41 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Y-cord construction From: "Gig Giacona" naumuk(at)windstream.net wrote: > All- > I ordered a panel mount jack for my headphones and they sent a Y-cord style jack and barrel. Non returnable. > I'd like to pose some questions to one of our more qualified electrical people as to how to make lemonade out of lemons. > Please contact me off-list. Thanks. > Bill Naumuk > Townville, Pa. > HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% > Who did you order from? If they sent you the wrong thing they really ought to replace it. But if they sent you helo jacks there really isn't a reason you can't use them and just use adapters on your headsets. Of course it might just be cheaper to take the hit and order what you want from a company that is legit. Really though don't forget to tell us who you ordered from so no one else will make the mistake of ordering from them. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238393#238393 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:32 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Y-cord construction ACS. I have a beautiful David Clark helo headset, I wanted panel mount jacks and got Y-cord. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gig Giacona" Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 7:16 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Y-cord construction > > > naumuk(at)windstream.net wrote: >> All- >> I ordered a panel mount jack for my headphones and they sent a >> Y-cord style jack and barrel. Non returnable. >> I'd like to pose some questions to one of our more qualified >> electrical people as to how to make lemonade out of lemons. >> Please contact me off-list. Thanks. >> Bill Naumuk >> Townville, Pa. >> HDS 601MG/Corvair 95% >> > > > Who did you order from? If they sent you the wrong thing they really ought > to replace it. But if they sent you helo jacks there really isn't a reason > you can't use them and just use adapters on your headsets. Of course it > might just be cheaper to take the hit and order what you want from a > company that is legit. > > Really though don't forget to tell us who you ordered from so no one else > will make the mistake of ordering from them. > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238393#238393 > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:27 PM PST US From: 601corvair Subject: Zenith-List: facet pump vapor lock follow up question Thanks to all who responded to my original post.- But let me be more spec ific in my concerns and situation.- First we have a corvair and an MA3 carb from a C essna 150. Second our concern is vapor lock in the fuel system from the tank to the ca rb. For instance, in an UN coordinated turn - like in an emergency situation wh en you are NOT coordinated in a properly banked turn, the pump will be asked to draw f uel up-hill from the lower wing tank;- such as in a barrel roll like maneuver or unus ual attitude -situation.-- Pumps at the centerline of the aircraft must draw fuel against the vertical distance to the tank, AND against he centrifugal force pushing the fuel tow ard the wingtip. In an emergency, who knows what attitude the aircraft will be in.- My question is- . . .- Is there a danger in trying to suck fuel all the way to the firewall, through the selector valve, through the- gascolator, and through a (potentially) dead fuel pump to get to a working pump located 12" away from the carb ??? Chris Heinz, has the pumps in the w ings - he's -the aircraft- designer.- However, the design also calls for a rotex engine, which I believe has a- mechanical pump at the engine to back up the single electrical pum p in each wing. >From a simple physics standpoint, it seems like you should push the fuel. - However, in this situation sucking fuel will allow fuel pump redundancy with the same n umber of -pumps, if the pumps suck rather than push fuel.- We also have the opti on of using electrical pumps in the wings to bring pressurized fuel through the cabin, to a valve, -through the valve to the gascolator directly to the carb, or to- the mechanical corvair fuel pump in parallel and then to the carb.- Obviously, the mechanical pump adds weig ht forward and has some fuel weeping issues. Any thoughts on this?- Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill? -It is easier to address this now in the garage than later at the airport , or at altitude. Thanks again.- Phill Hartig =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:21 PM PST US From: "steve" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: facet pump vapor lock follow up question Never saw a Chris design showing the pump in the wing.. Maybe I missed it somewhere. The low wing Pipers that I ve owned never had a pump in the wings either. Hummmmm. S. ----- Original Message ----- From: 601corvair To: corvaircraft@mylist.net ; Zenith list Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 5:20 PM Subject: Zenith-List: facet pump vapor lock follow up question Thanks to all who responded to my original post. But let me be more specific in my concerns and situation. First we have a corvair and an MA3 carb from a Cessna 150. Second our concern is vapor lock in the fuel system from the tank to the carb. For instance, in an UN coordinated turn - like in an emergency situation when you are NOT coordinated in a properly banked turn, the pump will be asked to draw fuel up-hill from the lower wing tank; such as in a barrel roll like maneuver or unusual attitude situation. Pumps at the centerline of the aircraft must draw fuel against the vertical distance to the tank, AND against he centrifugal force pushing the fuel toward the wingtip. In an emergency, who knows what attitude the aircraft will be in. My question is . . . Is there a danger in trying to suck fuel all the way to the firewall, through the selector valve, through the gascolator, and through a (potentially) dead fuel pump to get to a working pump located 12" away from the carb ??? Chris Heinz, has the pumps in the wings - he's the aircraft designer. However, the design also calls for a rotex engine, which I believe has a mechanical pump at the engine to back up the single electrical pump in each wing. From a simple physics standpoint, it seems like you should push the fuel. However, in this situation sucking fuel will allow fuel pump redundancy with the same number of pumps, if the pumps suck rather than push fuel. We also have the option of using electrical pumps in the wings to bring pressurized fuel through the cabin, to a valve, through the valve to the gascolator directly to the carb, or to the mechanical corvair fuel pump in parallel and then to the carb. Obviously, the mechanical pump adds weight forward and has some fuel weeping issues. Any thoughts on this? Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill? It is easier to address this now in the garage than later at the airport, or at altitude. Thanks again. Phill Hartig ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:33 PM PST US From: "Ashley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: facet pump vapor lock follow up question Phil, I believe you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Per the specs, they are self priming to 18 inches so in theory they could be located above the fuel. I know on my first power up with no fuel in the lines, they produced pressure in approx 2 seconds. If you are so un coordinated as you suggest, the fuel could slosh to the outside of the tank and unport the inlet. In this case, no matter where the pump is, it will not work. In the Piper Cherokee line, the pumps (electric and engine driven), are forward of the fire wall and mounted higher then the electric ones on the 601. I am quite certain that if this was a problem, the FAA would not have certified it. I know the pumps on the firewall have been working just fine in my 601 but as you are the builder and would be happier with pressurized fuel in the cockpit, build it that way. Floyd Wilkes ----- Original Message ----- From: 601corvair To: corvaircraft@mylist.net ; Zenith list Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 7:20 PM Subject: Zenith-List: facet pump vapor lock follow up question Thanks to all who responded to my original post. But let me be more specific in my concerns and situation. First we have a corvair and an MA3 carb from a Cessna 150. Second our concern is vapor lock in the fuel system from the tank to the carb. For instance, in an UN coordinated turn - like in an emergency situation when you are NOT coordinated in a properly banked turn, the pump will be asked to draw fuel up-hill from the lower wing tank; such as in a barrel roll like maneuver or unusual attitude situation. Pumps at the centerline of the aircraft must draw fuel against the vertical distance to the tank, AND against he centrifugal force pushing the fuel toward the wingtip. In an emergency, who knows what attitude the aircraft will be in. My question is . . . Is there a danger in trying to suck fuel all the way to the firewall, through the selector valve, through the gascolator, and through a (potentially) dead fuel pump to get to a working pump located 12" away from the carb ??? Chris Heinz, has the pumps in the wings - he's the aircraft designer. However, the design also calls for a rotex engine, which I believe has a mechanical pump at the engine to back up the single electrical pump in each wing. From a simple physics standpoint, it seems like you should push the fuel. However, in this situation sucking fuel will allow fuel pump redundancy with the same number of pumps, if the pumps suck rather than push fuel. We also have the option of using electrical pumps in the wings to bring pressurized fuel through the cabin, to a valve, through the valve to the gascolator directly to the carb, or to the mechanical corvair fuel pump in parallel and then to the carb. Obviously, the mechanical pump adds weight forward and has some fuel weeping issues. Any thoughts on this? Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill? It is easier to address this now in the garage than later at the airport, or at altitude. Thanks again. Phill Hartig ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:09 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: facet pump vapor lock follow up question > For instance, in an UN coordinated turn - like in an emergency > situation when you are > NOT coordinated in a properly banked turn, the pump will be asked to > draw fuel up-hill > from the lower wing tank; such as in a barrel roll like maneuver or > unusual attitude > situation. Pumps at the centerline of the aircraft must draw fuel > against the vertical > distance to the tank, AND against he centrifugal force pushing the > fuel toward the > wingtip. In this case, the fuel will be pulled away from the tank outlet port and the pumps will be sucking air anyway. Personally, I would put the pumps as low in the system as possible and avoid any significant restrictions in the lines on the suction side of the pumps. Any restriction to flow will cause a pressure drop in a flowing fluid and the lower the pressure, the lower the vaporization temperature of the fuel. I would put the pumps in parallel so you will never be sucking through a dead pump. Most Facet pumps allow so little back flow that separate check valves are not necessary for two pumps in parallel. The gascolator is not a significant restriction to flow so I wouldn't worry too much about putting pumps downstream of that. A filter, if used, should be placed downstream of the pumps because a partially clogged filter can significantly restrict fuel flow. Keep the fuel on the suction side of the pumps as cool as possible. Put firesleeve insulation on the fuel lines in the engine compartment to keep them cool. Another point to keep in mind: avgas is much less prone to vapor lock than auto gas. If you only plan on using avgas, you don't have to worry as much about vapor lock. Also, auto gas varies in composition from winter to summer. Auto gas sold in the winter is more easily vaporized than summer auto gas. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.