---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 04/09/09: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:21 AM - Re: Facet pump and vapor lock. (Gary Ray) 2. 06:25 AM - Re: Re: Help choosing a design (Tim Shankland) 3. 09:53 AM - Re: Y-cord construction (Gig Giacona) 4. 09:56 AM - 601XL Speed With and Without Wheel Fairings (Gig Giacona) 5. 10:29 AM - Re: 601XL Speed With and Without Wheel Fairings (Bryan Martin) 6. 10:33 AM - Re: 601XL Speed With and Without Wheel Fairings (Jay Maynard) 7. 01:06 PM - Re: facet pump vapor lock follow up question () 8. 01:50 PM - Re: facet pump vapor lock follow up question (Bryan Martin) 9. 03:06 PM - Re: Re: Y-cord construction (Bill Naumuk) 10. 03:27 PM - Re: 601XL Speed With and Without Wheel Fairings (george may) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:21:44 AM PST US From: "Gary Ray" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Facet pump and vapor lock. During testing I recorded 9 lbs psi on the ground when both facet pumps were on at the same time. The Ellison was not running well in this condition. I rewired the switches so either pump but not both could be active at the same time. I now have a Marvel Schebler MA3-SPA but I did not repeat the test. Gary Ray davgray@sbcglobal.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryMcFarland" Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 10:20 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Facet pump and vapor lock. > > Phill, > I've got two facet pumps in parallel on my firewall and they work well > independently or together. > The advantage of this is one pump cannot get clogged and shut down the > other. I normally take off with two and > run on one. If the one leading in serial order quits, do you increase > the odds of vapor lock? It would seem so. > 130 hours and running. > > Larry McFarland 601HDS > > > 601corvair wrote: > > > > Facet pump and vapor lock. > > > > > > > > It would seem the most cited way to plumb a covair driven wing tank > > > > only 601 is with 2 in series facet fuel pumps on the firewall. > > > > Logic would suggest this instillation (sucking vs pumping fuel) > > > > is susceptible to vapor lock. My question is: has anyone > > > > experienced vapor lock with a facet pump? If so, what was the > > > > instillation and flying conditions. There are lots of plumbing and > > > > weight advantages to this instillation (pump redundancy, oil > > > > pressure driven fuel shut off, reduced weight, access to all the > > > > fuel all the time). Thanks for your in put. Phill Hartig > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:21 AM PST US From: Tim Shankland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Help choosing a design Jon, I have a 601HD powered with a 100 hp Stratus suburu, with wheel pants at 70% my cruise is 105 mph. Tim Shankland mcjon77 wrote: > >Is a 100mph cruise generally what is seen in a 601HD? > >-------- >Jon McDonald >Building Sonex #1287 >Thinking ahead about a Zenith CH 701 :D > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238273#238273 > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:53:14 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Y-cord construction From: "Gig Giacona" naumuk(at)windstream.net wrote: > ACS. I have a beautiful David Clark helo headset, I wanted panel mount jacks > and got Y-cord. > Bill > --- Since when won't ACS take a return? I've sent back stuff a number of times even after I opened it. That said when I got my helo rating and my CFI said never by helo specific headsets unless you fly helos for a living. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238507#238507 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:56:20 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL Speed With and Without Wheel Fairings From: "Gig Giacona" Anyone out there who has flown their 601XL both with and without the wheel fairings? I'd like a real apple to apples comparison on speed. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238510#238510 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:29:57 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Speed With and Without Wheel Fairings I saw about five MPH difference in speed. On Apr 9, 2009, at 12:55 PM, Gig Giacona wrote: > > Anyone out there who has flown their 601XL both with and without the > wheel fairings? > > I'd like a real apple to apples comparison on speed. > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:33:32 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Speed With and Without Wheel Fairings On Thu, Apr 09, 2009 at 09:55:47AM -0700, Gig Giacona wrote: > Anyone out there who has flown their 601XL both with and without the wheel > fairings? > > I'd like a real apple to apples comparison on speed. I saw from 5 to 7 knots difference with the wheel pants off. That's probably a bit worse than if the pants were never there, since there's some mounting hardware that's not easily removed. The last snowstorm to hit the upper Midwest was my fault: I'd put the wheel pants back on a week or so prior. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:06:20 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: facet pump vapor lock follow up question Sorry guys, I just HAVE to jump in on this endless thread. Can we have a show of hands of those who have ever had vapor lock? And can we have a show of hands of those who have ever had vapor lock in the air? Vapor lock requires the following: Temperature at or near the boiling point of the liquid; Atmospheric pressure a good bit lower than 29.92; And one other factor, which escapes me at the moment. (my oldtimer's disease is kicking in.) In 51 years, I have heard of it maybe 5 times, and every one of those was on the ground, when the engine, already hot, sat and cooked on the ramp for a while. And, come to think of it, they were fuel-injected engines, where the fuel about to go into the cylinders was cooking on top of the engine. Personally, I'd rather debate whether the addition of external wire bracing, or AN-15 bolts would keep the wings on in a tornado, or a 10G pullout. Sorry for the rant. We return you to your program already in progress. Paul Rodriguez ----- Original Message ----- From: 601corvair To: corvaircraft@mylist.net ; Zenith list Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 7:20 PM Subject: Zenith-List: facet pump vapor lock follow up question Thanks to all who responded to my original post. But let me be more specific in my concerns and situation. First we have a corvair and an MA3 carb from a Cessna 150. Second our concern is vapor lock in the fuel system from the tank to the carb. For instance, in an UN coordinated turn - like in an emergency situation when you are NOT coordinated in a properly banked turn, the pump will be asked to draw fuel up-hill from the lower wing tank; such as in a barrel roll like maneuver or unusual attitude situation. Pumps at the centerline of the aircraft must draw fuel against the vertical distance to the tank, AND against he centrifugal force pushing the fuel toward the wingtip. In an emergency, who knows what attitude the aircraft will be in. My question is . . . Is there a danger in trying to suck fuel all the way to the firewall, through the selector valve, through the gascolator, and through a (potentially) dead fuel pump to get to a working pump located 12" away from the carb ??? Chris Heinz, has the pumps in the wings - he's the aircraft designer. However, the design also calls for a rotex engine, which I believe has a mechanical pump at the engine to back up the single electrical pump in each wing. From a simple physics standpoint, it seems like you should push the fuel. However, in this situation sucking fuel will allow fuel pump redundancy with the same number of pumps, if the pumps suck rather than push fuel. We also have the option of using electrical pumps in the wings to bring pressurized fuel through the cabin, to a valve, through the valve to the gascolator directly to the carb, or to the mechanical corvair fuel pump in parallel and then to the carb. Obviously, the mechanical pump adds weight forward and has some fuel weeping issues. Any thoughts on this? Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill? It is easier to address this now in the garage than later at the airport, or at altitude. Thanks again. Phill Hartig http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:50:09 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: facet pump vapor lock follow up question Actually, all that is required for vapor lock to occur is for the temperature-pressure combination of the fuel near the intake of the pump to fall within the vapor region. It usually requires a high ambient temperature, but gasoline will vaporize at a much lower temperature than its usual boiling point if the pressure is low enough. A low pressure can occur when there is a significant restriction to the flow of fuel and the rate of flow is high. The restriction will cause a pressure drop in the flow downstream of that point. I have had vapor lock occur in an old carbureted car on a hot day while climbing a steep hill. It is very rare in aircraft in flight because certificated aircraft fuel systems have been designed to prevent it and avgas has a much higher boiling point than auto gas. About the only time vapor lock is at all likely in an aircraft in flight is during a steep climb at full throttle on a hot day (i.e. right after takeoff). It usually takes a very bad fuel system design to have much risk of vapor lock. On Apr 9, 2009, at 4:05 PM, wrote: > Sorry guys, I just HAVE to jump in on this endless thread. Can we > have a show of hands of those who have ever had vapor lock? And can > we have a show of hands of those who have ever had vapor lock in the > air? Vapor lock requires the following: Temperature at or near the > boiling point of the liquid; Atmospheric pressure a good bit lower > than 29.92; And one other factor, which escapes me at the moment. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:06:54 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Y-cord construction Gig, and all- 1. I didn't know they were helo headsets until the package arrived. I'm sure your CFI's advice had to do with the jack compatability issue. 2. I have absolutely no complaints dealing with ACS. Since this was a special order (Non-stock item) there was a no-return statement which I freely agreed to. Yes, I suppose I could insist on a return but I know I can have the jacks working quicker than the time a return would take. It was just as much my fault for not spotting the lack of a -PM suffix on the part number when they e-mailed my order confirmation. Bill do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gig Giacona" Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 12:52 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Y-cord construction > > > naumuk(at)windstream.net wrote: >> ACS. I have a beautiful David Clark helo headset, I wanted panel mount >> jacks >> and got Y-cord. >> >> Bill >> --- > > > Since when won't ACS take a return? I've sent back stuff a number of times > even after I opened it. > > That said when I got my helo rating and my CFI said never by helo specific > headsets unless you fly helos for a living. > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238507#238507 > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:27:17 PM PST US From: george may Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL Speed With and Without Wheel Fairings Gig-- Looking at the other replies=2C I must be doing something wrong=2C but I o nly see a 3-4 mph difference with or without the standard Zenith wheel pant s. George May 601XL 912s > Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL Speed With and Without Wheel Fairings > From: wrgiacona@gmail.com > Date: Thu=2C 9 Apr 2009 09:55:47 -0700 > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > > > Anyone out there who has flown their 601XL both with and without the whee l fairings? > > I'd like a real apple to apples comparison on speed. > > -------- > W.R. "=3BGig"=3B Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238510#238510 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ Rediscover Hotmail=AE: Get quick friend updates right in your inbox. http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_ Updates1_042009 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.