Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:04 AM - Brake Line Routing and Cable Stressing/stretching (Rich Simmons)
2. 05:21 AM - Re: Brake Line Routing and Cable Stressing/stretching (Paul Mulwitz)
3. 06:46 AM - Having trouble finding fitting (Gig Giacona)
4. 07:09 AM - Re: Having trouble finding fitting (David Brooks)
5. 07:22 AM - Re: Emailing: 100_2883 (Patrick Best)
6. 07:25 AM - Re: Having trouble finding fitting (Al Etherington)
7. 07:43 AM - Re: Having trouble finding fitting (Bryan Martin)
8. 09:52 AM - Re: Having trouble finding fitting (Gig Giacona)
9. 10:08 AM - Re: Re: Having trouble finding fitting (Phil Maxson)
10. 01:11 PM - Re: Having trouble finding fitting (ROBERT SCEPPA)
11. 01:18 PM - NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (dougsire)
12. 01:32 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (steve)
13. 01:32 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Jay Maynard)
14. 02:27 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (hansriet)
15. 02:30 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Paul Mulwitz)
16. 02:38 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (steve)
17. 02:40 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (steve)
18. 02:50 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Jay Maynard)
19. 02:59 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Sabrina)
20. 03:04 PM - Re: Having trouble finding fitting (Bill Naumuk)
21. 03:34 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (ernie)
22. 03:34 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Jay Maynard)
23. 03:37 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (DaveG601XL)
24. 04:29 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Bryan Martin)
25. 04:48 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Jeyoung65@aol.com)
26. 04:52 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Jay Maynard)
27. 05:02 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Sabrina)
28. 05:03 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Jeyoung65@aol.com)
29. 05:03 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (George Swinford)
30. 05:04 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Craig Payne)
31. 07:08 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (JohnDRead@aol.com)
32. 07:08 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (JohnDRead@aol.com)
33. 07:20 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (hansriet)
34. 07:50 PM - Effects of Grounding 601XL (John Smith)
35. 07:54 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Bob Collins)
36. 08:10 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Paul Mulwitz)
37. 08:14 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Roger & Lina Hill)
38. 08:29 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
39. 08:32 PM - Re: Effects of Grounding 601XL (George Swinford)
40. 09:14 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Gary Gower)
41. 09:32 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (George Swinford)
42. 10:14 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Peter Chapman)
43. 11:33 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Matt Ronics)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Brake Line Routing and Cable Stressing/stretching |
1) Can any of you guys share a couple of pictures of how you ran your brake lines
with the "DUAL STICK" option. I am not pleased with what I see at the moment
coming through the center whole in the center spar. I am also assuming that
if not careful on routing, it would be easy to capture an airbuble that will be
hard to get rid of.
Any help would be appreciated.
2) Is the control cable sold by Zenith pre-stressed/stretched? I f not, is there
a method for doing this? Any guidance would be appreciated.
Feel free to contact me off line on either subject.
Do not archive
Rich
601XL Waiting for constant warm temperature to fit the Canopy!
I see the engine in my near future!
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Brake Line Routing and Cable Stressing/stretching |
Hi Rich,
I ran the brake lines on the outside of the cabin floor. This area
is shielded from the air stream by the engine cowling air exit
port. After connecting to the brake pedals the lines go through a
nylon reinforced hole in the cabin floor.
Paul
XL getting very close.
At 05:02 AM 4/14/2009, you wrote:
>Can any of you guys share a couple of pictures of how you ran your
>brake lines with the "DUAL STICK" option.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Having trouble finding fitting |
I'm having a little trouble finding a vendor with a Male AN-6 to 1/4" hose barb.
Summit doesn't seem to have one.
This is for connection between the rubber fuel line in the wing to SS braided in
the cockpit.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239093#239093
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Having trouble finding fitting |
I just saw an add in Grassroots Motorsports for "Affordable -AN Hose
Fittings". I have no idea what the company is like to deal with, but they
advertise both hose barb and threaded AN fittings in sizes from AN-6 to
AN-20.
The web site is: www.batinc.net/mocal.htm.
Dave
On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm having a little trouble finding a vendor with a Male AN-6 to 1/4" hose
> barb. Summit doesn't seem to have one.
>
> This is for connection between the rubber fuel line in the wing to SS
> braided in the cockpit.
>
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239093#239093
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Emailing: 100_2883 |
I love this colour.
________________________________
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of wade jones
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 3:52 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Emailing: 100_2883
Hello group ,not Zenith related however I wanted to share my latest picture
of my 32 year old Sonerai with you . A friend just painted my wings and I
just returned from his strip to my strip .I am still plugging along with my
601XL .Ed Sterba is building my prop and I just installed the starter on t
he Franklin engine (was very hard to locate). DO NOT ARCHIVE
:
100_2883
ing or receiving certain types of file attachments. Check your e-mail secu
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Having trouble finding fitting |
Gig Giacona wrote:
>
> I'm having a little trouble finding a vendor with a Male AN-6 to 1/4" hose barb.
Summit doesn't seem to have one.
>
> This is for connection between the rubber fuel line in the wing to SS braided
in the cockpit.
>
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239093#239093
>
>
>
Gig:
Try fluidsystemsengineering.com. You may have to go barb to pipe and
pipe to AN.
Al Etherington
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Having trouble finding fitting |
You may have to use three fittings to make that transition. Or you
could either use the braided hose all the way to the fuel tank or the
rubber hose all the way to the fuel valve or gascolator and then come
out of that with braided.
On Apr 14, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Gig Giacona wrote:
>
> I'm having a little trouble finding a vendor with a Male AN-6 to
> 1/4" hose barb. Summit doesn't seem to have one.
>
> This is for connection between the rubber fuel line in the wing to
> SS braided in the cockpit.
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Having trouble finding fitting |
I think you guys are right -6 to 1/4" doesn't seem to be available anywhere. There
is a -6 to 7mm one at Summit and 7mm = 0.27559".
Anyone have and opinion if the fuel line that Zenith provides can stretch that
0.025"? Else it will be some combination of fittings or rubber in the cockpit.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239119#239119
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Having trouble finding fitting |
How about running braided stainless all the way back to the tanks? That's what
I retrofitted on mine. I cut an access panel on the bottom of each wing, pulled
out the rubber hose and ran SS braid to an AN fitting at the tank. I put in
a fitting to make it easier to remove the wings later.
Phil
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Having trouble finding fitting |
> Have you tried Wag-Aero? Go to the online catalog...Do not archive
--- On Tue, 4/14/09, Al Etherington <aletherington@rogers.com> wrote:
> From: Al Etherington <aletherington@rogers.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Having trouble finding fitting
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 3:25 PM
> Al Etherington <aletherington@rogers.com>
>
> Gig Giacona wrote:
> <wrgiacona@gmail.com>
> >
> > I'm having a little trouble finding a vendor with a
> Male AN-6 to 1/4" hose barb. Summit doesn't seem to have
> one.
> >
> > This is for connection between the rubber fuel line in
> the wing to SS braided in the cockpit.
> >
> > --------
> > W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> > 601XL Under Construction
> > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239093#239093
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Gig:
>
> Try fluidsystemsengineering.com. You may have to go
> barb to pipe and
> pipe to AN.
>
> Al Etherington
>
> Email Forum -
> FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> List Contribution Web Site -
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
While surfing the NTSB site today I found this letter to the FAA.
http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/2009/A09_30_37.pdf.
Among other recommendations to the FAA...
Therefore, the National Transportation Safety Board recommends that the Federal
Aviation Administration:
Prohibit further flight of the Zodiac CH-601XL, both special light sport aircraft
and experimental, until such time that the Federal Aviation Administration
determines that the CH-601XL has adequate protection from flutter. (A-09-30) (Urgent)
Might want to reconsider that long cross country flight this weekend. Might have
to walk home...
Doug Sire
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239161#239161
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
TOTAL BULLSHIT !
----- Original Message -----
From: "dougsire" <dsire@imt.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 1:18 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
>
> While surfing the NTSB site today I found this letter to the FAA.
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/2009/A09_30_37.pdf.
>
> Among other recommendations to the FAA...
> Therefore, the National Transportation Safety Board recommends that the
> Federal Aviation Administration:
> Prohibit further flight of the Zodiac CH-601XL, both special light sport
> aircraft and experimental, until such time that the Federal Aviation
> Administration determines that the CH-601XL has adequate protection from
> flutter. (A-09-30) (Urgent)
>
> Might want to reconsider that long cross country flight this weekend.
> Might have to walk home...
>
> Doug Sire
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239161#239161
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 01:18:08PM -0700, dougsire wrote:
> While surfing the NTSB site today I found this letter to the FAA.
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/2009/A09_30_37.pdf.
>
> Among other recommendations to the FAA...
> Therefore, the National Transportation Safety Board recommends that the
> Federal Aviation Administration:
> Prohibit further flight of the Zodiac CH-601XL, both special light sport
> aircraft and experimental, until such time that the Federal Aviation
> Administration determines that the CH-601XL has adequate protection from
> flutter. (A-09-30) (Urgent)
Well, head-in-the-sand types: Now what? The NTSB isn't given to crying wolf.
For me, I plan to make damn good and sure my aileron cables are up to
specified tension frequently until more definite information becomes
available. That may not be the final answer, but it's all we've got right
now. The NTSB called that into question as the fix, though they did point
out the problems folks have had with keeping the tension up to spec.
If the FAA chooses to ground the type, I hope they wait until after the
CFI-SP checkride I've got scheduled for Thursday afternoon...
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
If the FAA chooses to ground the type, I hope they wait until after the
CFI-SP checkride I've got scheduled for Thursday afternoon...
--
I hope you get that examiner to step into your plane after this recommendation.
I think it's a great thing for all of us. After FAA action and corrective design
by whomever, we will have the faith in the airplane restored and our investment
secured.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239177#239177
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
I hate to disagree with Steve, but I have carefully read the NTSB
document and find it completely credible. I'm afraid this will be a
great excuse to put off my first flight which would otherwise have
occurred within a few weeks.
There are some confusing results of my decision to consider the NTSB
recommendations as reasonable. Since there are so many minor
variants of the XL design and different builders with different
actual results, it is not at all clear to me how to tell when this
whole mess has been resolved. Even if there is one "Blessed"
solution for AMD built planes, for example, it may remain unclear how
this solution should be applied to planes with different aileron and
control configurations. The same applies to different engine choices
and weight and balance situations.
I hope the folks at Zenair, Zenith, AMD, and other "Official" sellers
of the XL plans, kits, and planes release a set of changes
soon. These changes will probably include aileron mass balancing
design and possibly other appropriate design changes to make the XL
safe according to the NTSB and other authorities. This could start
with the changes from the UK being published. I can't believe there
is any legitimate for keeping those changes secret any longer.
Paul
XL was getting very close, now undetermined.
At 01:29 PM 4/14/2009, you wrote:
>
>TOTAL BULLSHIT !
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
You right, I m wrong.
I thought it was just another Matronics Bull Poop by a wannabe. But I did
find the Daily News Blog.
Maybe Zenith will retrofit a mass balance for the ailerons.
Thats what happened with my AvidFlyer a few years ago.
Seems the flapperons fluttered til the factory mandated and supplied retro
kits to eliminate the problem...
Sorry again..
SW
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Mulwitz" <psm@att.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
>
> I hate to disagree with Steve, but I have carefully read the NTSB document
> and find it completely credible. I'm afraid this will be a great excuse
> to put off my first flight which would otherwise have occurred within a
> few weeks.
>
> There are some confusing results of my decision to consider the NTSB
> recommendations as reasonable. Since there are so many minor variants of
> the XL design and different builders with different actual results, it is
> not at all clear to me how to tell when this whole mess has been resolved.
> Even if there is one "Blessed" solution for AMD built planes, for example,
> it may remain unclear how this solution should be applied to planes with
> different aileron and control configurations. The same applies to
> different engine choices and weight and balance situations.
>
> I hope the folks at Zenair, Zenith, AMD, and other "Official" sellers of
> the XL plans, kits, and planes release a set of changes soon. These
> changes will probably include aileron mass balancing design and possibly
> other appropriate design changes to make the XL safe according to the NTSB
> and other authorities. This could start with the changes from the UK
> being published. I can't believe there is any legitimate for keeping
> those changes secret any longer.
>
> Paul
> XL was getting very close, now undetermined.
>
>
> At 01:29 PM 4/14/2009, you wrote:
>>
>>TOTAL BULLSHIT !
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
The fix on my AvidFlyer was easy. A shovel type with lead on the end which
attached to the flapperon. Easy solution...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Mulwitz" <psm@att.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
>
> I hate to disagree with Steve, but I have carefully read the NTSB document
> and find it completely credible. I'm afraid this will be a great excuse
> to put off my first flight which would otherwise have occurred within a
> few weeks.
>
> There are some confusing results of my decision to consider the NTSB
> recommendations as reasonable. Since there are so many minor variants of
> the XL design and different builders with different actual results, it is
> not at all clear to me how to tell when this whole mess has been resolved.
> Even if there is one "Blessed" solution for AMD built planes, for example,
> it may remain unclear how this solution should be applied to planes with
> different aileron and control configurations. The same applies to
> different engine choices and weight and balance situations.
>
> I hope the folks at Zenair, Zenith, AMD, and other "Official" sellers of
> the XL plans, kits, and planes release a set of changes soon. These
> changes will probably include aileron mass balancing design and possibly
> other appropriate design changes to make the XL safe according to the NTSB
> and other authorities. This could start with the changes from the UK
> being published. I can't believe there is any legitimate for keeping
> those changes secret any longer.
>
> Paul
> XL was getting very close, now undetermined.
>
>
> At 01:29 PM 4/14/2009, you wrote:
>>
>>TOTAL BULLSHIT !
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 02:25:14PM -0700, hansriet wrote:
> Jay Maynard wrote:
> > If the FAA chooses to ground the type, I hope they wait until after the
> > CFI-SP checkride I've got scheduled for Thursday afternoon...
> I hope you get that examiner to step into your plane after this
> recommendation.
I'll find out when I call her tomorrow...
> I think it's a great thing for all of us. After FAA action and corrective
> design by whomever, we will have the faith in the airplane restored and
> our investment secured.
I agree.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
The NTSB did the right thing. AMD and Zenith will have to be more pro-active.
I just hope the FAA makes it clear which XLs they are grounding, if they do
ground the airframe. (Should 650s be included?) Maybe they will only ground
the S-LSAs and put speed limits on the experimental XLs and XL winged craft.
It would be nice if they would allow those still in Phase 1 to remain flying
within 5nm of their home airport as a test bed for their proposed modifications.
Paul is correct--a fix for one might not fix them all. My airframe is highly modified,
but I would still welcome a review of the AMD S-LSAs.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239184#239184
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Having trouble finding fitting |
Murdock Industrial.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Al Etherington" <aletherington@rogers.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Having trouble finding fitting
> <aletherington@rogers.com>
>
> Gig Giacona wrote:
>>
>> I'm having a little trouble finding a vendor with a Male AN-6 to 1/4"
>> hose barb. Summit doesn't seem to have one.
>> This is for connection between the rubber fuel line in the wing to SS
>> braided in the cockpit.
>>
>> --------
>> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
>> 601XL Under Construction
>> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239093#239093
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Gig:
>
> Try fluidsystemsengineering.com. You may have to go barb to pipe and pipe
> to AN.
>
> Al Etherington
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
Looks like some new rules / standards will come out of this.
--->
Work with ASTM International to incorporate additional requirements into the
standards for light sport airplanes that provide for additional
flutter mitigation
strategies. (A-09-33)
--->
Work with ASTM International to develop requirements to be included in the
standards for light sport airplanes that provide for stick-force
characteristics that
will minimize the possibility of pilots inadvertently overcontrolling
the airplane.
(A-09-35)
---->
Work with ASTM International to incorporate additional requirements into the
standards for light sport airplanes that provide for the accurate
determination of
airspeed data and for the adequate presentation of that data in
existing and new
airplane pilot operating handbooks and on airspeed indicators. (A-09-37)
On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 4:18 PM, dougsire <dsire@imt.net> wrote:
>
> While surfing the NTSB site today I found this letter to the FAA.
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/2009/A09_30_37.pdf.
>
> Among other recommendations to the FAA...
> Therefore, the National Transportation Safety Board recommends that the Federal
Aviation Administration:
> Prohibit further flight of the Zodiac CH-601XL, both special light sport aircraft
and experimental, until such time that the Federal Aviation Administration
determines that the CH-601XL has adequate protection from flutter. (A-09-30)
(Urgent)
>
> Might want to reconsider that long cross country flight this weekend. Might
have to walk home...
>
> Doug Sire
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239161#239161
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 02:58:25PM -0700, Sabrina wrote:
> The NTSB did the right thing. AMD and Zenith will have to be more
> pro-active. I just hope the FAA makes it clear which XLs they are
> grounding, if they do ground the airframe. (Should 650s be included?)
If the problem is aileron flutter, I don't see how it'd be reasonable for
them to ground less than all Zodiacs that don't have balanced ailerons. That
would include 650s, too.
> Maybe they will only ground the S-LSAs and put speed limits on the
> experimental XLs and XL winged craft.
This wouldn't make a lot of sense: if the situation warrants grounding, then
it would warrant grounding them all.
> It would be nice if they would allow those still in Phase 1 to remain
> flying within 5nm of their home airport as a test bed for their proposed
> modifications.
They could allow this by means of special flight permits.
> Paul is correct--a fix for one might not fix them all. My airframe is
> highly modified, but I would still welcome a review of the AMD S-LSAs.
How modified is it? Are your ailerons balanced?
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
Well the timing of this puts one heck of a bind on anybody's plans to fly to Sun-N-Fun
next week in a 601XL. Myself in particular. I have confidence in my
airplane making the trip, but I cannot afford to get grounded in Florida. I too,
hope that this motivates action for whatever the proposed modifications.
I do not want to spend all summer being grounded!!
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL/Jabiru 3300
First flight 7/24/08
70 hours and climbing!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239197#239197
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
The FAA may be able to ground the S-LSAs, but there would be a real
problem grounding the E-ABs. There is no type certificate to take
action against. Each airplane is considered one of a kind. Many of the
E-ABs out there don't even have Zenith or Zodiac on the airworthiness
certificate. A person could build one and call it a Jones Gee-Whizz
Special on the certificate, then how could the FAA track it down? I
don't think there has been a single time in the history of the E-AB
category that the FAA has ever even considered grounding an
experimental design.
Another thing is that the FAA doesn't have to pay any attention to
recommendations from the NTSB, and they often don't.
F**k 'em, if I get the chance to fly mine to Sun'N'Fun this year, I
will. I'm not worried in the least about getting grounded by this BS.
I'm getting pretty tired of the government trying to protect me from
me. That's not the freaking job I'm paying them to do.
On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:37 PM, DaveG601XL wrote:
> >
>
> Well the timing of this puts one heck of a bind on anybody's plans
> to fly to Sun-N-Fun next week in a 601XL. Myself in particular. I
> have confidence in my airplane making the trip, but I cannot afford
> to get grounded in Florida. I too, hope that this motivates action
> for whatever the proposed modifications. I do not want to spend all
> summer being grounded!!
>
> --------
> David Gallagher
> 601 XL/Jabiru 3300
> First flight 7/24/08
> 70 hours and climbing!
--
do not archive.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
I could not find the NTSB site. Anyone else having a problem locating the
side? Jerry of GA
DO NOT ARCHIVE
.
>
> While surfing the NTSB site today I found this letter to the FAA.
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/2009/A09_30_37.pdf.
>
> Among other recommendations to the FAA...
> Therefore, the National Transportation Safety Board recommends that the
> Federal Aviation Administration:
> Prohibit further flight of the Zodiac CH-601XL, both special light sport
> aircraft and experimental, until such time that the Federal Aviation
> Administration determines that the CH-601XL has adequate protection from
> flutter. (A-09-30) (Urgent)
>.
**************Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the
web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
(http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000002)
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 07:46:38PM -0400, Jeyoung65@aol.com wrote:
> I could not find the NTSB site. Anyone else having a problem locating the
> side? Jerry of GA
The link in the message you replied to had an extra period on the end. Try
the press release at http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2009/090414a.html .
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
Jay, I sent you a PM with many of the mods...
A speed limit may be appropriate for experimental XLs whereas it would be inappropriate
for S-LSAs. If a blanket speed limit were called out, AMD might just
agree with it and not conduct any further tests on their discontinued model.
According to the NTSB, Vne was 140 KCAS for N3683X.
The German Vne of 97 KCAS combined with properly tensioned aileron cables is a
reasonable approach in light of the fact that there is no widely published instance
of flutter or structural failure at or below 110 KIAS or 112 KCAS.
ZBAG should release any data they have concerning the onset of flutter... if it
is demonstrated in their model below 100 KCAS with or without properly tensioned
cables, we should know.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239216#239216
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
I got it that time, THANKS Jerry of GA DO NOT ARCHIVE
In a message dated 4/14/2009 6:53:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
jmaynard@conmicro.com writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 07:46:38PM -0400, Jeyoung65@aol.com wrote:
> I could not find the NTSB site. Anyone else having a problem locating
the
> side? Jerry of GA
The link in the message you replied to had an extra period on the end. Try
the press release at http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2009/090414a.html .
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
**************Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the
web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
(http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000002)
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
The New York Times has managed to find it, as has Aero-News Network.
We'd better hope for a quick, quiet resolution of the problem before a
bunch of lawyers and "crusading journalists" pile on and put Zenith out
of business, or even get homebuilts grounded by act of congress.
Remember the damage the networks did to the ultralight industry some
years back.
George
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeyoung65@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
I could not find the NTSB site. Anyone else having a problem locating
the side? Jerry of GA
DO NOT ARCHIVE
.
>
> While surfing the NTSB site today I found this letter to the FAA.
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/2009/A09_30_37.pdf.
>
> Among other recommendations to the FAA...
> Therefore, the National Transportation Safety Board recommends that
the
> Federal Aviation Administration:
> Prohibit further flight of the Zodiac CH-601XL, both special light
sport
> aircraft and experimental, until such time that the Federal Aviation
> Administration determines that the CH-601XL has adequate protection
from
> flutter. (A-09-30) (Urgent)
>.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get
the Radio Toolbar!
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
"FAA, NTSB feud over safety recommendations
The National Transportation Safety Board complains that the Federal Aviation
Administration doesn't act quickly enough, while the FAA says the safety
board is free to offer recommendations regardless of whether they are
practicable, economical or technologically possible."
http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20090219/FREE/902199993
-- Craig
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
Absolutely. One of the biggest problems I "see" is that builders tend to
make modifications and adjustments that are not on the Zenith plans. While a
working stiff I used to insist that suppliers to the various companies I
work for produced parts to the following spec - Mil TPF41C. Translation Make
It Like The Flaming Print For Once. So if your plane is fluttering I would
suggest that the tensions the cables to the Zenith values.
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 4/14/2009 5:30:08 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
bryanmmartin@comcast.net writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
The FAA may be able to ground the S-LSAs, but there would be a real
problem grounding the E-ABs. There is no type certificate to take
action against. Each airplane is considered one of a kind. Many of the
E-ABs out there don't even have Zenith or Zodiac on the airworthiness
certificate. A person could build one and call it a Jones Gee-Whizz
Special on the certificate, then how could the FAA track it down? I
don't think there has been a single time in the history of the E-AB
category that the FAA has ever even considered grounding an
experimental design.
Another thing is that the FAA doesn't have to pay any attention to
recommendations from the NTSB, and they often don't.
F**k 'em, if I get the chance to fly mine to Sun'N'Fun this year, I
will. I'm not worried in the least about getting grounded by this BS.
I'm getting pretty tired of the government trying to protect me from
me. That's not the freaking job I'm paying them to do.
On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:37 PM, DaveG601XL wrote:
<david.m.gallagher@ge.com
> >
>
> Well the timing of this puts one heck of a bind on anybody's plans
> to fly to Sun-N-Fun next week in a 601XL. Myself in particular. I
> have confidence in my airplane making the trip, but I cannot afford
> to get grounded in Florida. I too, hope that this motivates action
> for whatever the proposed modifications. I do not want to spend all
> summer being grounded!!
>
> --------
> David Gallagher
> 601 XL/Jabiru 3300
> First flight 7/24/08
> 70 hours and climbing!
--
do not archive.
**************Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the
web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
(http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000002)
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
Absolutely. One of the biggest problems I "see" is that builders tend to
make modifications and adjustments that are not on the Zenith plans. While a
working stiff I used to insist that suppliers to the various companies I
work for produced parts to the following spec - Mil TPF41C. Translation Make
It Like The Flaming Print For Once. So if your plane is fluttering I would
suggest that you tension the cables to the Zenith values.
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 4/14/2009 5:30:08 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
bryanmmartin@comcast.net writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
The FAA may be able to ground the S-LSAs, but there would be a real
problem grounding the E-ABs. There is no type certificate to take
action against. Each airplane is considered one of a kind. Many of the
E-ABs out there don't even have Zenith or Zodiac on the airworthiness
certificate. A person could build one and call it a Jones Gee-Whizz
Special on the certificate, then how could the FAA track it down? I
don't think there has been a single time in the history of the E-AB
category that the FAA has ever even considered grounding an
experimental design.
Another thing is that the FAA doesn't have to pay any attention to
recommendations from the NTSB, and they often don't.
F**k 'em, if I get the chance to fly mine to Sun'N'Fun this year, I
will. I'm not worried in the least about getting grounded by this BS.
I'm getting pretty tired of the government trying to protect me from
me. That's not the freaking job I'm paying them to do.
On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:37 PM, DaveG601XL wrote:
<david.m.gallagher@ge.com
> >
>
> Well the timing of this puts one heck of a bind on anybody's plans
> to fly to Sun-N-Fun next week in a 601XL. Myself in particular. I
> have confidence in my airplane making the trip, but I cannot afford
> to get grounded in Florida. I too, hope that this motivates action
> for whatever the proposed modifications. I do not want to spend all
> summer being grounded!!
>
> --------
> David Gallagher
> 601 XL/Jabiru 3300
> First flight 7/24/08
> 70 hours and climbing!
--
do not archive.
**************Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the
web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
(http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000002)
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
[quote="JohnDRead(at)aol.com"]So if your plane is fluttering I would suggest that
the tensions the cables to the Zenith values.
John,
As you can read in the NTSB report, there's not a value that Zenith (and the various
other manufacturers) agree on themselves. The values that are giving have
no roots in testing. If a builder experienced flutter, he or she is lucky to
live to tell it.
Won't you agree that an aileron balance that prevents flutter in all cases and
a Bob weight to even the stick pressures at high G-forces will make for a safer
plane?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239247#239247
Message 34
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| Subject: | Effects of Grounding 601XL |
I have been working on my 601XL like a mad-dog finishing it up and am waiti
ng for the FAA to inspect my 601XL mid-May.- I suppose the FAA won't insp
ect/issue me an airworthiness certificate no matter how well I build my air
plane-if the FAA ground the 601XL.--Just my luck?--As for Zenith,
I hope they can be pro-active and address the potential fluttering issues
whether real or imaginary so the 601XLs can regain the status as a flying m
achine and not as expensive three-wheels go-cart with wings.- Ladies and
gentlemen, it's only a matter of-time before the FAA ground all 601XLs so
let's have a beer or two and hopefully a fix or two come along by the time
we get sobber.=0A=0A=0A
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
This is an interesting discussion to watch. Bryan, you are probably
correct that the FAA would not be able to ground all the E-ABs out there
but the FAA (and Zenith) would be well advised to "encourage" them to
not fly if the FAA grounds the S-LSAs.
I read the NTSB recommendation and it seems to raise some valid concerns
about the design of the ailerons. If I were to put my life on the line,
I would want a well researched rebuttal to the NTSB letter before I
would fly it again. It is also not a case of the quality of the home
builder that is being discussed here, assuming (s)he followed the plans.
The NTSB is talking about a design issue which I really doubt any of the
builders made significant changes to.
The NTSB identifies two possible issues here. First, which Zenith agrees
with, is maintaining the proper tension in the control cables. This is
apparently critical to the design and Zenith should have identified it
as such from the beginning. As a design, requiring the owner to inspect
and measure the tension in the cables regularly seems like a poor choice
if there is a low or no maintenance option such as mass-balancing.
Second, the NTSB raises doubt whether the design is dynamically stable
even with the cables in proper tension. They don't cite much to support
this but I would want to see more investigation on this before my butt
is on the line.
I was also very surprised to read about the apparently non-standard (and
inconsistent) techniques used to measure airspeeds for the design.
I agree with George that this could turn into a circus which would not
be good for anyone. We need reasonable follow-through without either
hysteria or head-in-the-sand.
I have a question to the 601 cognoscenti, how are the XL ailerons
designed differently then the HD(S) ones? The NTSB letter was quite
specific to the 601XL.
Bob Collins
Sunnyvale CA USA
Bryan Martin wrote:
> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
> The FAA may be able to ground the S-LSAs, but there would be a real
> problem grounding the E-ABs. There is no type certificate to take
> action against. Each airplane is considered one of a kind. Many of the
> E-ABs out there don't even have Zenith or Zodiac on the airworthiness
> certificate. A person could build one and call it a Jones Gee-Whizz
> Special on the certificate, then how could the FAA track it down? I
> don't think there has been a single time in the history of the E-AB
> category that the FAA has ever even considered grounding an
> experimental design.
>
> Another thing is that the FAA doesn't have to pay any attention to
> recommendations from the NTSB, and they often don't.
>
> F**k 'em, if I get the chance to fly mine to Sun'N'Fun this year, I
> will. I'm not worried in the least about getting grounded by this BS.
> I'm getting pretty tired of the government trying to protect me from
> me. That's not the freaking job I'm paying them to do.
>
> On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:37 PM, DaveG601XL wrote:
>
>> <david.m.gallagher@ge.com>
>>
>> Well the timing of this puts one heck of a bind on anybody's plans to
>> fly to Sun-N-Fun next week in a 601XL. Myself in particular. I have
>> confidence in my airplane making the trip, but I cannot afford to get
>> grounded in Florida. I too, hope that this motivates action for
>> whatever the proposed modifications. I do not want to spend all
>> summer being grounded!!
>>
>> --------
>> David Gallagher
>> 601 XL/Jabiru 3300
>> First flight 7/24/08
>> 70 hours and climbing!
>
>
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
Hi Bob,
I am not familiar with any design except the XL (with which I have
spent every day for the last 4 years). I believe the basic design of
the ailerons is similar on all models, but the wing shape and general
design is quite different on the XL.
The XL has a tapered wing. The other models (forgetting the 650
which is really an XL with a different name) have Hershey bar wings
(I think). Also the center section of the other models extends a
considerable way out the wing while the XL is straight from the
fuselage to the wing tip. I believe these major differences in the
wing shape will be more significant than the actual aileron shape or design.
The XL can be built with either hinge-less or piano hinged
ailerons. I suspect this doesn't make much difference with regard to
the NTSB paper on flutter.
Paul
XL on hold
At 07:52 PM 4/14/2009, you wrote:
>I have a question to the 601 cognoscenti, how are the XL ailerons
>designed differently then the HD(S) ones? The NTSB letter was quite
>specific to the 601XL.
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
Bob;
Well, I for one have push rods on my 601 HDS, so that's one difference (no
cables to go slack). Also, I have a big fat wing that probably resist
flapping and/or breaking to a greater degree than the 601XL wing, even if a
flutter does occur.
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
This is an interesting discussion to watch. Bryan, you are probably
correct that the FAA would not be able to ground all the E-ABs out there
but the FAA (and Zenith) would be well advised to "encourage" them to
not fly if the FAA grounds the S-LSAs.
I read the NTSB recommendation and it seems to raise some valid concerns
about the design of the ailerons. If I were to put my life on the line,
I would want a well researched rebuttal to the NTSB letter before I
would fly it again. It is also not a case of the quality of the home
builder that is being discussed here, assuming (s)he followed the plans.
The NTSB is talking about a design issue which I really doubt any of the
builders made significant changes to.
The NTSB identifies two possible issues here. First, which Zenith agrees
with, is maintaining the proper tension in the control cables. This is
apparently critical to the design and Zenith should have identified it
as such from the beginning. As a design, requiring the owner to inspect
and measure the tension in the cables regularly seems like a poor choice
if there is a low or no maintenance option such as mass-balancing.
Second, the NTSB raises doubt whether the design is dynamically stable
even with the cables in proper tension. They don't cite much to support
this but I would want to see more investigation on this before my butt
is on the line.
I was also very surprised to read about the apparently non-standard (and
inconsistent) techniques used to measure airspeeds for the design.
I agree with George that this could turn into a circus which would not
be good for anyone. We need reasonable follow-through without either
hysteria or head-in-the-sand.
I have a question to the 601 cognoscenti, how are the XL ailerons
designed differently then the HD(S) ones? The NTSB letter was quite
specific to the 601XL.
Bob Collins
Sunnyvale CA USA
Bryan Martin wrote:
> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
> The FAA may be able to ground the S-LSAs, but there would be a real
> problem grounding the E-ABs. There is no type certificate to take
> action against. Each airplane is considered one of a kind. Many of the
> E-ABs out there don't even have Zenith or Zodiac on the airworthiness
> certificate. A person could build one and call it a Jones Gee-Whizz
> Special on the certificate, then how could the FAA track it down? I
> don't think there has been a single time in the history of the E-AB
> category that the FAA has ever even considered grounding an
> experimental design.
>
> Another thing is that the FAA doesn't have to pay any attention to
> recommendations from the NTSB, and they often don't.
>
> F**k 'em, if I get the chance to fly mine to Sun'N'Fun this year, I
> will. I'm not worried in the least about getting grounded by this BS.
> I'm getting pretty tired of the government trying to protect me from
> me. That's not the freaking job I'm paying them to do.
>
> On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:37 PM, DaveG601XL wrote:
>
>> <david.m.gallagher@ge.com>
>>
>> Well the timing of this puts one heck of a bind on anybody's plans to
>> fly to Sun-N-Fun next week in a 601XL. Myself in particular. I have
>> confidence in my airplane making the trip, but I cannot afford to get
>> grounded in Florida. I too, hope that this motivates action for
>> whatever the proposed modifications. I do not want to spend all
>> summer being grounded!!
>>
>> --------
>> David Gallagher
>> 601 XL/Jabiru 3300
>> First flight 7/24/08
>> 70 hours and climbing!
>
>
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
Anybody notice the date of the NTSB letter to the FAA?
In a message dated 4/14/2009 11:14:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
hills@sunflower.com writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Roger & Lina Hill"
<hills@sunflower.com>
Bob;
Well, I for one have push rods on my 601 HDS, so that's one difference (no
cables to go slack). Also, I have a big fat wing that probably resist
flapping and/or breaking to a greater degree than the 601XL wing, even if a
flutter does occur.
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
This is an interesting discussion to watch. Bryan, you are probably
correct that the FAA would not be able to ground all the E-ABs out there
but the FAA (and Zenith) would be well advised to "encourage" them to
not fly if the FAA grounds the S-LSAs.
I read the NTSB recommendation and it seems to raise some valid concerns
about the design of the ailerons. If I were to put my life on the line,
I would want a well researched rebuttal to the NTSB letter before I
would fly it again. It is also not a case of the quality of the home
builder that is being discussed here, assuming (s)he followed the plans.
The NTSB is talking about a design issue which I really doubt any of the
builders made significant changes to.
The NTSB identifies two possible issues here. First, which Zenith agrees
with, is maintaining the proper tension in the control cables. This is
apparently critical to the design and Zenith should have identified it
as such from the beginning. As a design, requiring the owner to inspect
and measure the tension in the cables regularly seems like a poor choice
if there is a low or no maintenance option such as mass-balancing.
Second, the NTSB raises doubt whether the design is dynamically stable
even with the cables in proper tension. They don't cite much to support
this but I would want to see more investigation on this before my butt
is on the line.
I was also very surprised to read about the apparently non-standard (and
inconsistent) techniques used to measure airspeeds for the design.
I agree with George that this could turn into a circus which would not
be good for anyone. We need reasonable follow-through without either
hysteria or head-in-the-sand.
I have a question to the 601 cognoscenti, how are the XL ailerons
designed differently then the HD(S) ones? The NTSB letter was quite
specific to the 601XL.
Bob Collins
Sunnyvale CA USA
Bryan Martin wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin
> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
> The FAA may be able to ground the S-LSAs, but there would be a real
> problem grounding the E-ABs. There is no type certificate to take
> action against. Each airplane is considered one of a kind. Many of the
> E-ABs out there don't even have Zenith or Zodiac on the airworthiness
> certificate. A person could build one and call it a Jones Gee-Whizz
> Special on the certificate, then how could the FAA track it down? I
> don't think there has been a single time in the history of the E-AB
> category that the FAA has ever even considered grounding an
> experimental design.
>
> Another thing is that the FAA doesn't have to pay any attention to
> recommendations from the NTSB, and they often don't.
>
> F**k 'em, if I get the chance to fly mine to Sun'N'Fun this year, I
> will. I'm not worried in the least about getting grounded by this BS.
> I'm getting pretty tired of the government trying to protect me from
> me. That's not the freaking job I'm paying them to do.
>
> On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:37 PM, DaveG601XL wrote:
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "DaveG601XL"
>> <david.m.gallagher@ge.com>
>>
>> Well the timing of this puts one heck of a bind on anybody's plans to
>> fly to Sun-N-Fun next week in a 601XL. Myself in particular. I have
>> confidence in my airplane making the trip, but I cannot afford to get
>> grounded in Florida. I too, hope that this motivates action for
>> whatever the proposed modifications. I do not want to spend all
>> summer being grounded!!
>>
>> --------
>> David Gallagher
>> 601 XL/Jabiru 3300
>> First flight 7/24/08
>> 70 hours and climbing!
>
>
**************Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the
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Message 39
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|
| Subject: | Re: Effects of Grounding 601XL |
John:
The sky is not yet falling.
At this point, the FAA has said and done nothing at all. The NTSB makes
recommendations which the FAA may accept or reject. In many cases the
FAA seems to take a "not invented here" attitude and rejects the NTSB
recommendation. Also, it is not clear (to me, anyway) that the NTSB's
authority extends to amateur-built aircraft.
If I were in the happy position of having a 601XL project ready for
inspection, I think I'd go ahead and give it a shot. The wheels of
government often turn slowly.
George
----- Original Message -----
From: John Smith
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:48 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Effects of Grounding 601XL
I have been working on my 601XL like a mad-dog finishing it up and am
waiting for the FAA to inspect my 601XL mid-May. I suppose the FAA
won't inspect/issue me an airworthiness certificate no matter how well I
build my airplane if the FAA ground the 601XL. Just my luck? As for
Zenith, I hope they can be pro-active and address the potential
fluttering issues whether real or imaginary so the 601XLs can regain the
status as a flying machine and not as expensive three-wheels go-cart
with wings. Ladies and gentlemen, it's only a matter of time before the
FAA ground all 601XLs so let's have a beer or two and hopefully a fix or
two come along by the time we get sobber.
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
Could it be-the date-April 1st- (April fool) Joke for you guys in USA
?
-
Saludos
Gary Gower...
--- On Tue, 4/14/09, JAPhillipsGA@aol.com <JAPhillipsGA@aol.com> wrote:
From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com <JAPhillipsGA@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
Anybody notice the date of the NTSB letter to the FAA?
-
In a message dated 4/14/2009 11:14:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hills@sun
flower.com writes:
>
Bob;
Well, I for one have push rods on my 601 HDS, so that's one difference (no
cables to go slack).-- Also, I have a big fat wing that probably resist
flapping and/or breaking to a greater degree than the 601XL wing, even if a
flutter does occur.
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
This is an interesting discussion to watch. Bryan, you are probably
correct that the FAA would not be able to ground all the E-ABs out there
but the FAA (and Zenith) would be well advised to "encourage" them to
not fly if the FAA grounds the S-LSAs.
I read the NTSB recommendation and it seems to raise some valid concerns
about the design of the ailerons. If I were to put my life on the line,
I would want a well researched rebuttal to the NTSB letter before I
would fly it again. It is also not a case of the quality of the home
builder that is being discussed here, assuming (s)he followed the plans.
The NTSB is talking about a design issue which I really doubt any of the
builders made significant changes to.
The NTSB identifies two possible issues here. First, which Zenith agrees
with, is maintaining the proper tension in the control cables. This is
apparently critical to the design and Zenith should have identified it
as such from the beginning. As a design, requiring the owner to inspect
and measure the tension in the cables regularly seems like a poor choice
if there is a low or no maintenance option such as mass-balancing.
Second, the NTSB raises doubt whether the design is dynamically stable
even with the cables in proper tension. They don't cite much to support
this but I would want to see more investigation on this before my butt
is on the line.
I was also very surprised to read about the apparently non-standard (and
inconsistent) techniques used to measure airspeeds for the design.
I agree with George that this could turn into a circus which would not
be good for anyone. We need reasonable follow-through without either
hysteria or head-in-the-sand.
I have a question to the 601 cognoscenti, how are the XL ailerons
designed differently then the HD(S) ones? The NTSB letter was quite
specific to the 601XL.
Bob Collins
Sunnyvale CA USA
Bryan Martin wrote:
> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
> The FAA may be able to ground the S-LSAs, but there would be a real
> problem grounding the E-ABs. There is no type certificate to take
> action against. Each airplane is considered one of a kind. Many of the
> E-ABs out there don't even have Zenith or Zodiac on the airworthiness
> certificate. A person could build one and call it a Jones Gee-Whizz
> Special on the certificate, then how could the FAA track it down? I
> don't think there has been a single time in the history of the E-AB
> category that the FAA has ever even considered grounding an
> experimental design.
>
> Another thing is that the FAA doesn't have to pay any attention to
> recommendations from the NTSB, and they often don't.
>
> F**k 'em, if I get the chance to fly mine to Sun'N'Fun this year, I
> will. I'm not worried in the least about getting grounded by this BS.
> I'm getting pretty tired of the government trying to protect me from
> me. That's not the freaking job I'm paying them to do.
>
> On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:37 PM, DaveG601XL wrote:
>
>> <david.m.gallagher@ge.com>
>>
>> Well the timing of this puts one heck of a bind on anybody's plans to
>> fly to Sun-N-Fun next week in a 601XL.- Myself in particular.- I hav
e
>> confidence in my airplane making the trip, but I cannot afford to get
>> grounded in Florida.- I too, hope that this motivates action for
>> whatever the proposed modifications.- I do not want to spend all
>> summer being grounded!!
>>
>> --------
>> David Gallagher
>> 601 XL/Jabiru 3300
>> First flight 7/24/08
>> 70 hours and ===================
==== the ties Day ================
======= - - - - - -- - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS =
====================== - -
- - -- - List Contribution Web Site sp; - - - - - - -
- - - - - ==================
=======
Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the R
adio Toolbar!
=0A=0A=0A
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
It was dated today, the 14th.
George
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Gower
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in
US
Could it be the date April 1st (April fool) Joke for you guys
in USA?
Saludos
Gary Gower...
--- On Tue, 4/14/09, JAPhillipsGA@aol.com <JAPhillipsGA@aol.com>
wrote:
From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com <JAPhillipsGA@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of
601XLs in US
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 11:25 PM
Anybody notice the date of the NTSB letter to the FAA?
In a message dated 4/14/2009 11:14:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight
Time, hills@sunflower.com writes:
<hills@sunflower.com>
Bob;
Well, I for one have push rods on my 601 HDS, so that's one
difference (no
cables to go slack). Also, I have a big fat wing that
probably resist
flapping and/or breaking to a greater degree than the 601XL
wing, even if a
flutter does occur.
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Bob Collins
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:52 PM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of
601XLs in US
<bobcollins42@gmail.com>
This is an interesting discussion to watch. Bryan, you are
probably
correct that the FAA would not be able to ground all the
E-ABs out there
but the FAA (and Zenith) would be well advised to
"encourage" them to
not fly if the FAA grounds the S-LSAs.
I read the NTSB recommendation and it seems to raise some
valid concerns
about the design of the ailerons. If I were to put my life
on the line,
I would want a well researched rebuttal to the NTSB letter
before I
would fly it again. It is also not a case of the quality of
the home
builder that is being discussed here, assuming (s)he
followed the plans.
The NTSB is talking about a design issue which I really
doubt any of the
builders made significant changes to.
The NTSB identifies two possible issues here. First, which
Zenith agrees
with, is maintaining the proper tension in the control
cables. This is
apparently critical to the design and Zenith should have
identified it
as such from the beginning. As a design, requiring the owner
to inspect
and measure the tension in the cables regularly seems like a
poor choice
if there is a low or no maintenance option such as
mass-balancing.
Second, the NTSB raises doubt whether the design is
dynamically stable
even with the cables in proper tension. They don't cite much
to support
this but I would want to see more investigation on this
before my butt
is on the line.
I was also very surprised to read about the apparently
non-standard (and
inconsistent) techniques used to measure airspeeds for the
design.
I agree with George that this could turn into a circus which
would not
be good for anyone. We need reasonable follow-through
without either
hysteria or head-in-the-sand.
I have a question to the 601 cognoscenti, how are the XL
ailerons
designed differently then the HD(S) ones? The NTSB letter
was quite
specific to the 601XL.
Bob Collins
Sunnyvale CA USA
Bryan Martin wrote:
> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
> The FAA may be able to ground the S-LSAs, but there would
be a real
> problem grounding the E-ABs. There is no type certificate
to take
> action against. Each airplane is considered one of a kind.
Many of the
> E-ABs out there don't even have Zenith or Zodiac on the
airworthiness
> certificate. A person could build one and call it a Jones
Gee-Whizz
> Special on the certificate, then how could the FAA track
it down? I
> don't think there has been a single time in the history of
the E-AB
> category that the FAA has ever even considered grounding
an
> experimental design.
>
> Another thing is that the FAA doesn't have to pay any
attention to
> recommendations from the NTSB, and they often don't.
>
> F**k 'em, if I get the chance to fly mine to Sun'N'Fun
this year, I
> will. I'm not worried in the least about getting grounded
by this BS.
> I'm getting pretty tired of the government trying to
protect me from
> me. That's not the freaking job I'm paying them to do.
>
> On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:37 PM, DaveG601XL wrote:
>
>> <david.m.gallagher@ge.com>
>>
>> Well the timing of this puts one heck of a bind on
anybody's plans to
>> fly to Sun-N-Fun next week in a 601XL. Myself in
particular. I have
>> confidence in my airplane making the trip, but I cannot
afford to get
>> grounded in Florida. I too, hope that this motivates
action for
>> whatever the proposed modifications. I do not want to
spend all
>> summer being grounded!!
>>
>> --------
>> David Gallagher
>> 601 XL/Jabiru 3300
>> First flight 7/24/08
>> 70 hours and
=======================
the ties Day
=======================
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS
=======================
- List Contribution Web Site sp;
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the
web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
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Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
While the NTSB presumably doesn't have to give anyone a heads-up on
anything, it is disappointing that Zenith "wasn't ahead of the story"
on this at all, even if it may not have been their fault.
It seems ironic to have received an emailed newsletter from Zenith
that is "all sunshine", on the same day of the NTSB letters, April 14.
I haven't been keeping close track, but the last I heard from Zenith
was that they'd participate in the European load tests, but weren't
really expecting to spend the money to test to the US standards too.
That was late in February. Also, in a Chris Heintz letter responding
to the British LAA restrictions the same month, he basically wrote
that everything was rosy with the NTSB. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Sorry to say but Zenith were either blind, blindsided, or keeping us
in the blind.
Peter Chapman
Toronto, ON
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
"While the NTSB presumably doesn't have to give anyone a heads-up on anything,
it is disappointing that Zenith "wasn't ahead of the story" on this at all, even
if it may not have been their fault.....
...Sorry to say but Zenith were either blind, blindsided, or keeping us in the
blind."
"Let me assure everyone that Zenair is in close contact with the NTSB on this matter,
and that if anything is discovered that could affect the safety of the
Zodiac fleet, we will be notified immediately." (from Chris Heintz's letter April
24, 2008)
This whole issue stinks, no matter how you look at it.
I wish they would produce a match-hole drilled 601HD/S kit.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239275#239275
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