Zenith-List Digest Archive

Tue 04/14/09


Total Messages Posted: 43



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 05:04 AM - Brake Line Routing and Cable Stressing/stretching (Rich Simmons)
     2. 05:21 AM - Re: Brake Line Routing and Cable Stressing/stretching (Paul Mulwitz)
     3. 06:46 AM - Having trouble finding fitting (Gig Giacona)
     4. 07:09 AM - Re: Having trouble finding fitting (David Brooks)
     5. 07:22 AM - Re: Emailing: 100_2883 (Patrick Best)
     6. 07:25 AM - Re: Having trouble finding fitting (Al Etherington)
     7. 07:43 AM - Re: Having trouble finding fitting (Bryan Martin)
     8. 09:52 AM - Re: Having trouble finding fitting (Gig Giacona)
     9. 10:08 AM - Re: Re: Having trouble finding fitting (Phil Maxson)
    10. 01:11 PM - Re: Having trouble finding fitting (ROBERT SCEPPA)
    11. 01:18 PM - NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (dougsire)
    12. 01:32 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (steve)
    13. 01:32 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Jay Maynard)
    14. 02:27 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (hansriet)
    15. 02:30 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Paul Mulwitz)
    16. 02:38 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (steve)
    17. 02:40 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (steve)
    18. 02:50 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Jay Maynard)
    19. 02:59 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Sabrina)
    20. 03:04 PM - Re: Having trouble finding fitting (Bill Naumuk)
    21. 03:34 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (ernie)
    22. 03:34 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Jay Maynard)
    23. 03:37 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (DaveG601XL)
    24. 04:29 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Bryan Martin)
    25. 04:48 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Jeyoung65@aol.com)
    26. 04:52 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Jay Maynard)
    27. 05:02 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Sabrina)
    28. 05:03 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Jeyoung65@aol.com)
    29. 05:03 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (George Swinford)
    30. 05:04 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Craig Payne)
    31. 07:08 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (JohnDRead@aol.com)
    32. 07:08 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (JohnDRead@aol.com)
    33. 07:20 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (hansriet)
    34. 07:50 PM - Effects of Grounding 601XL (John Smith)
    35. 07:54 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Bob Collins)
    36. 08:10 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Paul Mulwitz)
    37. 08:14 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Roger & Lina Hill)
    38. 08:29 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
    39. 08:32 PM - Re: Effects of Grounding 601XL (George Swinford)
    40. 09:14 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Gary Gower)
    41. 09:32 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (George Swinford)
    42. 10:14 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Peter Chapman)
    43. 11:33 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Matt Ronics)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 05:04:15 AM PST US
    From: Rich Simmons <4RCSIMMONS@comcast.net>
    Subject: Brake Line Routing and Cable Stressing/stretching
    1) Can any of you guys share a couple of pictures of how you ran your brake lines with the "DUAL STICK" option. I am not pleased with what I see at the moment coming through the center whole in the center spar. I am also assuming that if not careful on routing, it would be easy to capture an airbuble that will be hard to get rid of. Any help would be appreciated. 2) Is the control cable sold by Zenith pre-stressed/stretched? I f not, is there a method for doing this? Any guidance would be appreciated. Feel free to contact me off line on either subject. Do not archive Rich 601XL Waiting for constant warm temperature to fit the Canopy! I see the engine in my near future!


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:21:55 AM PST US
    From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
    Subject: Re: Brake Line Routing and Cable Stressing/stretching
    Hi Rich, I ran the brake lines on the outside of the cabin floor. This area is shielded from the air stream by the engine cowling air exit port. After connecting to the brake pedals the lines go through a nylon reinforced hole in the cabin floor. Paul XL getting very close. At 05:02 AM 4/14/2009, you wrote: >Can any of you guys share a couple of pictures of how you ran your >brake lines with the "DUAL STICK" option.


    Message 3


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    Time: 06:46:48 AM PST US
    Subject: Having trouble finding fitting
    From: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona@gmail.com>
    I'm having a little trouble finding a vendor with a Male AN-6 to 1/4" hose barb. Summit doesn't seem to have one. This is for connection between the rubber fuel line in the wing to SS braided in the cockpit. -------- W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239093#239093


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:09:28 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Having trouble finding fitting
    From: David Brooks <dkbrooks@gmail.com>
    I just saw an add in Grassroots Motorsports for "Affordable -AN Hose Fittings". I have no idea what the company is like to deal with, but they advertise both hose barb and threaded AN fittings in sizes from AN-6 to AN-20. The web site is: www.batinc.net/mocal.htm. Dave On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com> wrote: > > I'm having a little trouble finding a vendor with a Male AN-6 to 1/4" hose > barb. Summit doesn't seem to have one. > > This is for connection between the rubber fuel line in the wing to SS > braided in the cockpit. > > -------- > W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239093#239093 > >


    Message 5


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    Time: 07:22:37 AM PST US
    From: Patrick Best <Patrick.Best@telus.com>
    Subject: Emailing: 100_2883
    I love this colour. ________________________________ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-serv er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of wade jones Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 3:52 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Emailing: 100_2883 Hello group ,not Zenith related however I wanted to share my latest picture of my 32 year old Sonerai with you . A friend just painted my wings and I just returned from his strip to my strip .I am still plugging along with my 601XL .Ed Sterba is building my prop and I just installed the starter on t he Franklin engine (was very hard to locate). DO NOT ARCHIVE : 100_2883 ing or receiving certain types of file attachments. Check your e-mail secu


    Message 6


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    Time: 07:25:17 AM PST US
    From: Al Etherington <aletherington@rogers.com>
    Subject: Re: Having trouble finding fitting
    Gig Giacona wrote: > > I'm having a little trouble finding a vendor with a Male AN-6 to 1/4" hose barb. Summit doesn't seem to have one. > > This is for connection between the rubber fuel line in the wing to SS braided in the cockpit. > > -------- > W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239093#239093 > > > Gig: Try fluidsystemsengineering.com. You may have to go barb to pipe and pipe to AN. Al Etherington


    Message 7


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    Time: 07:43:14 AM PST US
    From: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Having trouble finding fitting
    You may have to use three fittings to make that transition. Or you could either use the braided hose all the way to the fuel tank or the rubber hose all the way to the fuel valve or gascolator and then come out of that with braided. On Apr 14, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Gig Giacona wrote: > > I'm having a little trouble finding a vendor with a Male AN-6 to > 1/4" hose barb. Summit doesn't seem to have one. > > This is for connection between the rubber fuel line in the wing to > SS braided in the cockpit. > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive.


    Message 8


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    Time: 09:52:13 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Having trouble finding fitting
    From: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona@gmail.com>
    I think you guys are right -6 to 1/4" doesn't seem to be available anywhere. There is a -6 to 7mm one at Summit and 7mm = 0.27559". Anyone have and opinion if the fuel line that Zenith provides can stretch that 0.025"? Else it will be some combination of fittings or rubber in the cockpit. -------- W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239119#239119


    Message 9


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    Time: 10:08:54 AM PST US
    From: "Phil Maxson " <pmaxpmax@HOTMAIL.COM>
    Subject: Re: Having trouble finding fitting
    How about running braided stainless all the way back to the tanks? That's what I retrofitted on mine. I cut an access panel on the bottom of each wing, pulled out the rubber hose and ran SS braid to an AN fitting at the tank. I put in a fitting to make it easier to remove the wings later. Phil Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


    Message 10


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    Time: 01:11:41 PM PST US
    From: ROBERT SCEPPA <rjscep@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Having trouble finding fitting
    > Have you tried Wag-Aero? Go to the online catalog...Do not archive --- On Tue, 4/14/09, Al Etherington <aletherington@rogers.com> wrote: > From: Al Etherington <aletherington@rogers.com> > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Having trouble finding fitting > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 3:25 PM > Al Etherington <aletherington@rogers.com> > > Gig Giacona wrote: > <wrgiacona@gmail.com> > > > > I'm having a little trouble finding a vendor with a > Male AN-6 to 1/4" hose barb. Summit doesn't seem to have > one. > > > > This is for connection between the rubber fuel line in > the wing to SS braided in the cockpit. > > > > -------- > > W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona > > 601XL Under Construction > > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239093#239093 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gig: > > Try fluidsystemsengineering.com. You may have to go > barb to pipe and > pipe to AN. > > Al Etherington > > Email Forum - > FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 01:18:22 PM PST US
    Subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    From: "dougsire" <dsire@imt.net>
    While surfing the NTSB site today I found this letter to the FAA. http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/2009/A09_30_37.pdf. Among other recommendations to the FAA... Therefore, the National Transportation Safety Board recommends that the Federal Aviation Administration: Prohibit further flight of the Zodiac CH-601XL, both special light sport aircraft and experimental, until such time that the Federal Aviation Administration determines that the CH-601XL has adequate protection from flutter. (A-09-30) (Urgent) Might want to reconsider that long cross country flight this weekend. Might have to walk home... Doug Sire Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239161#239161


    Message 12


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    Time: 01:32:33 PM PST US
    From: "steve" <notsew_evets@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    TOTAL BULLSHIT ! ----- Original Message ----- From: "dougsire" <dsire@imt.net> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 1:18 PM Subject: Zenith-List: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US > > While surfing the NTSB site today I found this letter to the FAA. > > http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/2009/A09_30_37.pdf. > > Among other recommendations to the FAA... > Therefore, the National Transportation Safety Board recommends that the > Federal Aviation Administration: > Prohibit further flight of the Zodiac CH-601XL, both special light sport > aircraft and experimental, until such time that the Federal Aviation > Administration determines that the CH-601XL has adequate protection from > flutter. (A-09-30) (Urgent) > > Might want to reconsider that long cross country flight this weekend. > Might have to walk home... > > Doug Sire > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239161#239161 > > >


    Message 13


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    Time: 01:32:33 PM PST US
    From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 01:18:08PM -0700, dougsire wrote: > While surfing the NTSB site today I found this letter to the FAA. > > http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/2009/A09_30_37.pdf. > > Among other recommendations to the FAA... > Therefore, the National Transportation Safety Board recommends that the > Federal Aviation Administration: > Prohibit further flight of the Zodiac CH-601XL, both special light sport > aircraft and experimental, until such time that the Federal Aviation > Administration determines that the CH-601XL has adequate protection from > flutter. (A-09-30) (Urgent) Well, head-in-the-sand types: Now what? The NTSB isn't given to crying wolf. For me, I plan to make damn good and sure my aileron cables are up to specified tension frequently until more definite information becomes available. That may not be the final answer, but it's all we've got right now. The NTSB called that into question as the fix, though they did point out the problems folks have had with keeping the tension up to spec. If the FAA chooses to ground the type, I hope they wait until after the CFI-SP checkride I've got scheduled for Thursday afternoon... -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml


    Message 14


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    Time: 02:27:02 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    From: "hansriet" <hansinla@mac.com>
    If the FAA chooses to ground the type, I hope they wait until after the CFI-SP checkride I've got scheduled for Thursday afternoon... -- I hope you get that examiner to step into your plane after this recommendation. I think it's a great thing for all of us. After FAA action and corrective design by whomever, we will have the faith in the airplane restored and our investment secured. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239177#239177


    Message 15


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    Time: 02:30:12 PM PST US
    From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    I hate to disagree with Steve, but I have carefully read the NTSB document and find it completely credible. I'm afraid this will be a great excuse to put off my first flight which would otherwise have occurred within a few weeks. There are some confusing results of my decision to consider the NTSB recommendations as reasonable. Since there are so many minor variants of the XL design and different builders with different actual results, it is not at all clear to me how to tell when this whole mess has been resolved. Even if there is one "Blessed" solution for AMD built planes, for example, it may remain unclear how this solution should be applied to planes with different aileron and control configurations. The same applies to different engine choices and weight and balance situations. I hope the folks at Zenair, Zenith, AMD, and other "Official" sellers of the XL plans, kits, and planes release a set of changes soon. These changes will probably include aileron mass balancing design and possibly other appropriate design changes to make the XL safe according to the NTSB and other authorities. This could start with the changes from the UK being published. I can't believe there is any legitimate for keeping those changes secret any longer. Paul XL was getting very close, now undetermined. At 01:29 PM 4/14/2009, you wrote: > >TOTAL BULLSHIT !


    Message 16


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    Time: 02:38:32 PM PST US
    From: "steve" <notsew_evets@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    You right, I m wrong. I thought it was just another Matronics Bull Poop by a wannabe. But I did find the Daily News Blog. Maybe Zenith will retrofit a mass balance for the ailerons. Thats what happened with my AvidFlyer a few years ago. Seems the flapperons fluttered til the factory mandated and supplied retro kits to eliminate the problem... Sorry again.. SW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Mulwitz" <psm@att.net> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US > > I hate to disagree with Steve, but I have carefully read the NTSB document > and find it completely credible. I'm afraid this will be a great excuse > to put off my first flight which would otherwise have occurred within a > few weeks. > > There are some confusing results of my decision to consider the NTSB > recommendations as reasonable. Since there are so many minor variants of > the XL design and different builders with different actual results, it is > not at all clear to me how to tell when this whole mess has been resolved. > Even if there is one "Blessed" solution for AMD built planes, for example, > it may remain unclear how this solution should be applied to planes with > different aileron and control configurations. The same applies to > different engine choices and weight and balance situations. > > I hope the folks at Zenair, Zenith, AMD, and other "Official" sellers of > the XL plans, kits, and planes release a set of changes soon. These > changes will probably include aileron mass balancing design and possibly > other appropriate design changes to make the XL safe according to the NTSB > and other authorities. This could start with the changes from the UK > being published. I can't believe there is any legitimate for keeping > those changes secret any longer. > > Paul > XL was getting very close, now undetermined. > > > At 01:29 PM 4/14/2009, you wrote: >> >>TOTAL BULLSHIT ! > > >


    Message 17


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    Time: 02:40:36 PM PST US
    From: "steve" <notsew_evets@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    The fix on my AvidFlyer was easy. A shovel type with lead on the end which attached to the flapperon. Easy solution... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Mulwitz" <psm@att.net> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US > > I hate to disagree with Steve, but I have carefully read the NTSB document > and find it completely credible. I'm afraid this will be a great excuse > to put off my first flight which would otherwise have occurred within a > few weeks. > > There are some confusing results of my decision to consider the NTSB > recommendations as reasonable. Since there are so many minor variants of > the XL design and different builders with different actual results, it is > not at all clear to me how to tell when this whole mess has been resolved. > Even if there is one "Blessed" solution for AMD built planes, for example, > it may remain unclear how this solution should be applied to planes with > different aileron and control configurations. The same applies to > different engine choices and weight and balance situations. > > I hope the folks at Zenair, Zenith, AMD, and other "Official" sellers of > the XL plans, kits, and planes release a set of changes soon. These > changes will probably include aileron mass balancing design and possibly > other appropriate design changes to make the XL safe according to the NTSB > and other authorities. This could start with the changes from the UK > being published. I can't believe there is any legitimate for keeping > those changes secret any longer. > > Paul > XL was getting very close, now undetermined. > > > At 01:29 PM 4/14/2009, you wrote: >> >>TOTAL BULLSHIT ! > > >


    Message 18


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    Time: 02:50:09 PM PST US
    From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 02:25:14PM -0700, hansriet wrote: > Jay Maynard wrote: > > If the FAA chooses to ground the type, I hope they wait until after the > > CFI-SP checkride I've got scheduled for Thursday afternoon... > I hope you get that examiner to step into your plane after this > recommendation. I'll find out when I call her tomorrow... > I think it's a great thing for all of us. After FAA action and corrective > design by whomever, we will have the faith in the airplane restored and > our investment secured. I agree. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml


    Message 19


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    Time: 02:59:40 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris@msn.com>
    The NTSB did the right thing. AMD and Zenith will have to be more pro-active. I just hope the FAA makes it clear which XLs they are grounding, if they do ground the airframe. (Should 650s be included?) Maybe they will only ground the S-LSAs and put speed limits on the experimental XLs and XL winged craft. It would be nice if they would allow those still in Phase 1 to remain flying within 5nm of their home airport as a test bed for their proposed modifications. Paul is correct--a fix for one might not fix them all. My airframe is highly modified, but I would still welcome a review of the AMD S-LSAs. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239184#239184


    Message 20


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    Time: 03:04:03 PM PST US
    From: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@windstream.net>
    Subject: Re: Having trouble finding fitting
    Murdock Industrial. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Etherington" <aletherington@rogers.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 10:25 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Having trouble finding fitting > <aletherington@rogers.com> > > Gig Giacona wrote: >> >> I'm having a little trouble finding a vendor with a Male AN-6 to 1/4" >> hose barb. Summit doesn't seem to have one. >> This is for connection between the rubber fuel line in the wing to SS >> braided in the cockpit. >> >> -------- >> W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona >> 601XL Under Construction >> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239093#239093 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Gig: > > Try fluidsystemsengineering.com. You may have to go barb to pipe and pipe > to AN. > > Al Etherington > > >


    Message 21


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    Time: 03:34:04 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    From: ernie <ernieth@gmail.com>
    Looks like some new rules / standards will come out of this. ---> Work with ASTM International to incorporate additional requirements into the standards for light sport airplanes that provide for additional flutter mitigation strategies. (A-09-33) ---> Work with ASTM International to develop requirements to be included in the standards for light sport airplanes that provide for stick-force characteristics that will minimize the possibility of pilots inadvertently overcontrolling the airplane. (A-09-35) ----> Work with ASTM International to incorporate additional requirements into the standards for light sport airplanes that provide for the accurate determination of airspeed data and for the adequate presentation of that data in existing and new airplane pilot operating handbooks and on airspeed indicators. (A-09-37) On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 4:18 PM, dougsire <dsire@imt.net> wrote: > > While surfing the NTSB site today I found this letter to the FAA. > > http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/2009/A09_30_37.pdf. > > Among other recommendations to the FAA... > Therefore, the National Transportation Safety Board recommends that the Federal Aviation Administration: > Prohibit further flight of the Zodiac CH-601XL, both special light sport aircraft and experimental, until such time that the Federal Aviation Administration determines that the CH-601XL has adequate protection from flutter. (A-09-30) (Urgent) > > Might want to reconsider that long cross country flight this weekend. Might have to walk home... > > Doug Sire > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239161#239161 > >


    Message 22


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    Time: 03:34:10 PM PST US
    From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 02:58:25PM -0700, Sabrina wrote: > The NTSB did the right thing. AMD and Zenith will have to be more > pro-active. I just hope the FAA makes it clear which XLs they are > grounding, if they do ground the airframe. (Should 650s be included?) If the problem is aileron flutter, I don't see how it'd be reasonable for them to ground less than all Zodiacs that don't have balanced ailerons. That would include 650s, too. > Maybe they will only ground the S-LSAs and put speed limits on the > experimental XLs and XL winged craft. This wouldn't make a lot of sense: if the situation warrants grounding, then it would warrant grounding them all. > It would be nice if they would allow those still in Phase 1 to remain > flying within 5nm of their home airport as a test bed for their proposed > modifications. They could allow this by means of special flight permits. > Paul is correct--a fix for one might not fix them all. My airframe is > highly modified, but I would still welcome a review of the AMD S-LSAs. How modified is it? Are your ailerons balanced? -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml


    Message 23


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    Time: 03:37:23 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    From: "DaveG601XL" <david.m.gallagher@ge.com>
    Well the timing of this puts one heck of a bind on anybody's plans to fly to Sun-N-Fun next week in a 601XL. Myself in particular. I have confidence in my airplane making the trip, but I cannot afford to get grounded in Florida. I too, hope that this motivates action for whatever the proposed modifications. I do not want to spend all summer being grounded!! -------- David Gallagher 601 XL/Jabiru 3300 First flight 7/24/08 70 hours and climbing! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239197#239197


    Message 24


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    Time: 04:29:24 PM PST US
    From: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    The FAA may be able to ground the S-LSAs, but there would be a real problem grounding the E-ABs. There is no type certificate to take action against. Each airplane is considered one of a kind. Many of the E-ABs out there don't even have Zenith or Zodiac on the airworthiness certificate. A person could build one and call it a Jones Gee-Whizz Special on the certificate, then how could the FAA track it down? I don't think there has been a single time in the history of the E-AB category that the FAA has ever even considered grounding an experimental design. Another thing is that the FAA doesn't have to pay any attention to recommendations from the NTSB, and they often don't. F**k 'em, if I get the chance to fly mine to Sun'N'Fun this year, I will. I'm not worried in the least about getting grounded by this BS. I'm getting pretty tired of the government trying to protect me from me. That's not the freaking job I'm paying them to do. On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:37 PM, DaveG601XL wrote: > > > > Well the timing of this puts one heck of a bind on anybody's plans > to fly to Sun-N-Fun next week in a 601XL. Myself in particular. I > have confidence in my airplane making the trip, but I cannot afford > to get grounded in Florida. I too, hope that this motivates action > for whatever the proposed modifications. I do not want to spend all > summer being grounded!! > > -------- > David Gallagher > 601 XL/Jabiru 3300 > First flight 7/24/08 > 70 hours and climbing! -- do not archive.


    Message 25


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    Time: 04:48:08 PM PST US
    From: Jeyoung65@aol.com
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    I could not find the NTSB site. Anyone else having a problem locating the side? Jerry of GA DO NOT ARCHIVE . > > While surfing the NTSB site today I found this letter to the FAA. > > http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/2009/A09_30_37.pdf. > > Among other recommendations to the FAA... > Therefore, the National Transportation Safety Board recommends that the > Federal Aviation Administration: > Prohibit further flight of the Zodiac CH-601XL, both special light sport > aircraft and experimental, until such time that the Federal Aviation > Administration determines that the CH-601XL has adequate protection from > flutter. (A-09-30) (Urgent) >. **************Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar! (http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000002)


    Message 26


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    Time: 04:52:48 PM PST US
    From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 07:46:38PM -0400, Jeyoung65@aol.com wrote: > I could not find the NTSB site. Anyone else having a problem locating the > side? Jerry of GA The link in the message you replied to had an extra period on the end. Try the press release at http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2009/090414a.html . -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml


    Message 27


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    Time: 05:02:22 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris@msn.com>
    Jay, I sent you a PM with many of the mods... A speed limit may be appropriate for experimental XLs whereas it would be inappropriate for S-LSAs. If a blanket speed limit were called out, AMD might just agree with it and not conduct any further tests on their discontinued model. According to the NTSB, Vne was 140 KCAS for N3683X. The German Vne of 97 KCAS combined with properly tensioned aileron cables is a reasonable approach in light of the fact that there is no widely published instance of flutter or structural failure at or below 110 KIAS or 112 KCAS. ZBAG should release any data they have concerning the onset of flutter... if it is demonstrated in their model below 100 KCAS with or without properly tensioned cables, we should know. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239216#239216


    Message 28


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    Time: 05:03:04 PM PST US
    From: Jeyoung65@aol.com
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    I got it that time, THANKS Jerry of GA DO NOT ARCHIVE In a message dated 4/14/2009 6:53:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jmaynard@conmicro.com writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 07:46:38PM -0400, Jeyoung65@aol.com wrote: > I could not find the NTSB site. Anyone else having a problem locating the > side? Jerry of GA The link in the message you replied to had an extra period on the end. Try the press release at http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2009/090414a.html . -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml **************Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar! (http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000002)


    Message 29


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    Time: 05:03:57 PM PST US
    From: "George Swinford" <grs-pms@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    The New York Times has managed to find it, as has Aero-News Network. We'd better hope for a quick, quiet resolution of the problem before a bunch of lawyers and "crusading journalists" pile on and put Zenith out of business, or even get homebuilts grounded by act of congress. Remember the damage the networks did to the ultralight industry some years back. George Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeyoung65@aol.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:46 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US I could not find the NTSB site. Anyone else having a problem locating the side? Jerry of GA DO NOT ARCHIVE . > > While surfing the NTSB site today I found this letter to the FAA. > > http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/2009/A09_30_37.pdf. > > Among other recommendations to the FAA... > Therefore, the National Transportation Safety Board recommends that the > Federal Aviation Administration: > Prohibit further flight of the Zodiac CH-601XL, both special light sport > aircraft and experimental, until such time that the Federal Aviation > Administration determines that the CH-601XL has adequate protection from > flutter. (A-09-30) (Urgent) >. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar!


    Message 30


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    Time: 05:04:02 PM PST US
    From: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    "FAA, NTSB feud over safety recommendations The National Transportation Safety Board complains that the Federal Aviation Administration doesn't act quickly enough, while the FAA says the safety board is free to offer recommendations regardless of whether they are practicable, economical or technologically possible." http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20090219/FREE/902199993 -- Craig


    Message 31


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    Time: 07:08:55 PM PST US
    From: JohnDRead@aol.com
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    Absolutely. One of the biggest problems I "see" is that builders tend to make modifications and adjustments that are not on the Zenith plans. While a working stiff I used to insist that suppliers to the various companies I work for produced parts to the following spec - Mil TPF41C. Translation Make It Like The Flaming Print For Once. So if your plane is fluttering I would suggest that the tensions the cables to the Zenith values. John Read CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300 Phone: 303-648-3261 Fax: 303-648-3262 Cell: 719-494-4567 In a message dated 4/14/2009 5:30:08 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, bryanmmartin@comcast.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net> The FAA may be able to ground the S-LSAs, but there would be a real problem grounding the E-ABs. There is no type certificate to take action against. Each airplane is considered one of a kind. Many of the E-ABs out there don't even have Zenith or Zodiac on the airworthiness certificate. A person could build one and call it a Jones Gee-Whizz Special on the certificate, then how could the FAA track it down? I don't think there has been a single time in the history of the E-AB category that the FAA has ever even considered grounding an experimental design. Another thing is that the FAA doesn't have to pay any attention to recommendations from the NTSB, and they often don't. F**k 'em, if I get the chance to fly mine to Sun'N'Fun this year, I will. I'm not worried in the least about getting grounded by this BS. I'm getting pretty tired of the government trying to protect me from me. That's not the freaking job I'm paying them to do. On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:37 PM, DaveG601XL wrote: <david.m.gallagher@ge.com > > > > Well the timing of this puts one heck of a bind on anybody's plans > to fly to Sun-N-Fun next week in a 601XL. Myself in particular. I > have confidence in my airplane making the trip, but I cannot afford > to get grounded in Florida. I too, hope that this motivates action > for whatever the proposed modifications. I do not want to spend all > summer being grounded!! > > -------- > David Gallagher > 601 XL/Jabiru 3300 > First flight 7/24/08 > 70 hours and climbing! -- do not archive. **************Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar! (http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000002)


    Message 32


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    Time: 07:08:55 PM PST US
    From: JohnDRead@aol.com
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    Absolutely. One of the biggest problems I "see" is that builders tend to make modifications and adjustments that are not on the Zenith plans. While a working stiff I used to insist that suppliers to the various companies I work for produced parts to the following spec - Mil TPF41C. Translation Make It Like The Flaming Print For Once. So if your plane is fluttering I would suggest that you tension the cables to the Zenith values. John Read CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300 Phone: 303-648-3261 Fax: 303-648-3262 Cell: 719-494-4567 In a message dated 4/14/2009 5:30:08 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, bryanmmartin@comcast.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net> The FAA may be able to ground the S-LSAs, but there would be a real problem grounding the E-ABs. There is no type certificate to take action against. Each airplane is considered one of a kind. Many of the E-ABs out there don't even have Zenith or Zodiac on the airworthiness certificate. A person could build one and call it a Jones Gee-Whizz Special on the certificate, then how could the FAA track it down? I don't think there has been a single time in the history of the E-AB category that the FAA has ever even considered grounding an experimental design. Another thing is that the FAA doesn't have to pay any attention to recommendations from the NTSB, and they often don't. F**k 'em, if I get the chance to fly mine to Sun'N'Fun this year, I will. I'm not worried in the least about getting grounded by this BS. I'm getting pretty tired of the government trying to protect me from me. That's not the freaking job I'm paying them to do. On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:37 PM, DaveG601XL wrote: <david.m.gallagher@ge.com > > > > Well the timing of this puts one heck of a bind on anybody's plans > to fly to Sun-N-Fun next week in a 601XL. Myself in particular. I > have confidence in my airplane making the trip, but I cannot afford > to get grounded in Florida. I too, hope that this motivates action > for whatever the proposed modifications. I do not want to spend all > summer being grounded!! > > -------- > David Gallagher > 601 XL/Jabiru 3300 > First flight 7/24/08 > 70 hours and climbing! -- do not archive. **************Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar! (http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000002)


    Message 33


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    Time: 07:20:29 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    From: "hansriet" <hansinla@mac.com>
    [quote="JohnDRead(at)aol.com"]So if your plane is fluttering I would suggest that the tensions the cables to the Zenith values. John, As you can read in the NTSB report, there's not a value that Zenith (and the various other manufacturers) agree on themselves. The values that are giving have no roots in testing. If a builder experienced flutter, he or she is lucky to live to tell it. Won't you agree that an aileron balance that prevents flutter in all cases and a Bob weight to even the stick pressures at high G-forces will make for a safer plane? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239247#239247


    Message 34


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    Time: 07:50:55 PM PST US
    From: John Smith <zenithlist@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Effects of Grounding 601XL
    I have been working on my 601XL like a mad-dog finishing it up and am waiti ng for the FAA to inspect my 601XL mid-May.- I suppose the FAA won't insp ect/issue me an airworthiness certificate no matter how well I build my air plane-if the FAA ground the 601XL.--Just my luck?--As for Zenith, I hope they can be pro-active and address the potential fluttering issues whether real or imaginary so the 601XLs can regain the status as a flying m achine and not as expensive three-wheels go-cart with wings.- Ladies and gentlemen, it's only a matter of-time before the FAA ground all 601XLs so let's have a beer or two and hopefully a fix or two come along by the time we get sobber.=0A=0A=0A


    Message 35


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    Time: 07:54:29 PM PST US
    From: Bob Collins <bobcollins42@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    This is an interesting discussion to watch. Bryan, you are probably correct that the FAA would not be able to ground all the E-ABs out there but the FAA (and Zenith) would be well advised to "encourage" them to not fly if the FAA grounds the S-LSAs. I read the NTSB recommendation and it seems to raise some valid concerns about the design of the ailerons. If I were to put my life on the line, I would want a well researched rebuttal to the NTSB letter before I would fly it again. It is also not a case of the quality of the home builder that is being discussed here, assuming (s)he followed the plans. The NTSB is talking about a design issue which I really doubt any of the builders made significant changes to. The NTSB identifies two possible issues here. First, which Zenith agrees with, is maintaining the proper tension in the control cables. This is apparently critical to the design and Zenith should have identified it as such from the beginning. As a design, requiring the owner to inspect and measure the tension in the cables regularly seems like a poor choice if there is a low or no maintenance option such as mass-balancing. Second, the NTSB raises doubt whether the design is dynamically stable even with the cables in proper tension. They don't cite much to support this but I would want to see more investigation on this before my butt is on the line. I was also very surprised to read about the apparently non-standard (and inconsistent) techniques used to measure airspeeds for the design. I agree with George that this could turn into a circus which would not be good for anyone. We need reasonable follow-through without either hysteria or head-in-the-sand. I have a question to the 601 cognoscenti, how are the XL ailerons designed differently then the HD(S) ones? The NTSB letter was quite specific to the 601XL. Bob Collins Sunnyvale CA USA Bryan Martin wrote: > <bryanmmartin@comcast.net> > > The FAA may be able to ground the S-LSAs, but there would be a real > problem grounding the E-ABs. There is no type certificate to take > action against. Each airplane is considered one of a kind. Many of the > E-ABs out there don't even have Zenith or Zodiac on the airworthiness > certificate. A person could build one and call it a Jones Gee-Whizz > Special on the certificate, then how could the FAA track it down? I > don't think there has been a single time in the history of the E-AB > category that the FAA has ever even considered grounding an > experimental design. > > Another thing is that the FAA doesn't have to pay any attention to > recommendations from the NTSB, and they often don't. > > F**k 'em, if I get the chance to fly mine to Sun'N'Fun this year, I > will. I'm not worried in the least about getting grounded by this BS. > I'm getting pretty tired of the government trying to protect me from > me. That's not the freaking job I'm paying them to do. > > On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:37 PM, DaveG601XL wrote: > >> <david.m.gallagher@ge.com> >> >> Well the timing of this puts one heck of a bind on anybody's plans to >> fly to Sun-N-Fun next week in a 601XL. Myself in particular. I have >> confidence in my airplane making the trip, but I cannot afford to get >> grounded in Florida. I too, hope that this motivates action for >> whatever the proposed modifications. I do not want to spend all >> summer being grounded!! >> >> -------- >> David Gallagher >> 601 XL/Jabiru 3300 >> First flight 7/24/08 >> 70 hours and climbing! > >


    Message 36


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    Time: 08:10:59 PM PST US
    From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    Hi Bob, I am not familiar with any design except the XL (with which I have spent every day for the last 4 years). I believe the basic design of the ailerons is similar on all models, but the wing shape and general design is quite different on the XL. The XL has a tapered wing. The other models (forgetting the 650 which is really an XL with a different name) have Hershey bar wings (I think). Also the center section of the other models extends a considerable way out the wing while the XL is straight from the fuselage to the wing tip. I believe these major differences in the wing shape will be more significant than the actual aileron shape or design. The XL can be built with either hinge-less or piano hinged ailerons. I suspect this doesn't make much difference with regard to the NTSB paper on flutter. Paul XL on hold At 07:52 PM 4/14/2009, you wrote: >I have a question to the 601 cognoscenti, how are the XL ailerons >designed differently then the HD(S) ones? The NTSB letter was quite >specific to the 601XL.


    Message 37


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    Time: 08:14:04 PM PST US
    From: "Roger & Lina Hill" <hills@sunflower.com>
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    Bob; Well, I for one have push rods on my 601 HDS, so that's one difference (no cables to go slack). Also, I have a big fat wing that probably resist flapping and/or breaking to a greater degree than the 601XL wing, even if a flutter does occur. Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:52 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US This is an interesting discussion to watch. Bryan, you are probably correct that the FAA would not be able to ground all the E-ABs out there but the FAA (and Zenith) would be well advised to "encourage" them to not fly if the FAA grounds the S-LSAs. I read the NTSB recommendation and it seems to raise some valid concerns about the design of the ailerons. If I were to put my life on the line, I would want a well researched rebuttal to the NTSB letter before I would fly it again. It is also not a case of the quality of the home builder that is being discussed here, assuming (s)he followed the plans. The NTSB is talking about a design issue which I really doubt any of the builders made significant changes to. The NTSB identifies two possible issues here. First, which Zenith agrees with, is maintaining the proper tension in the control cables. This is apparently critical to the design and Zenith should have identified it as such from the beginning. As a design, requiring the owner to inspect and measure the tension in the cables regularly seems like a poor choice if there is a low or no maintenance option such as mass-balancing. Second, the NTSB raises doubt whether the design is dynamically stable even with the cables in proper tension. They don't cite much to support this but I would want to see more investigation on this before my butt is on the line. I was also very surprised to read about the apparently non-standard (and inconsistent) techniques used to measure airspeeds for the design. I agree with George that this could turn into a circus which would not be good for anyone. We need reasonable follow-through without either hysteria or head-in-the-sand. I have a question to the 601 cognoscenti, how are the XL ailerons designed differently then the HD(S) ones? The NTSB letter was quite specific to the 601XL. Bob Collins Sunnyvale CA USA Bryan Martin wrote: > <bryanmmartin@comcast.net> > > The FAA may be able to ground the S-LSAs, but there would be a real > problem grounding the E-ABs. There is no type certificate to take > action against. Each airplane is considered one of a kind. Many of the > E-ABs out there don't even have Zenith or Zodiac on the airworthiness > certificate. A person could build one and call it a Jones Gee-Whizz > Special on the certificate, then how could the FAA track it down? I > don't think there has been a single time in the history of the E-AB > category that the FAA has ever even considered grounding an > experimental design. > > Another thing is that the FAA doesn't have to pay any attention to > recommendations from the NTSB, and they often don't. > > F**k 'em, if I get the chance to fly mine to Sun'N'Fun this year, I > will. I'm not worried in the least about getting grounded by this BS. > I'm getting pretty tired of the government trying to protect me from > me. That's not the freaking job I'm paying them to do. > > On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:37 PM, DaveG601XL wrote: > >> <david.m.gallagher@ge.com> >> >> Well the timing of this puts one heck of a bind on anybody's plans to >> fly to Sun-N-Fun next week in a 601XL. Myself in particular. I have >> confidence in my airplane making the trip, but I cannot afford to get >> grounded in Florida. I too, hope that this motivates action for >> whatever the proposed modifications. I do not want to spend all >> summer being grounded!! >> >> -------- >> David Gallagher >> 601 XL/Jabiru 3300 >> First flight 7/24/08 >> 70 hours and climbing! > >


    Message 38


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    Time: 08:29:52 PM PST US
    From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    Anybody notice the date of the NTSB letter to the FAA? In a message dated 4/14/2009 11:14:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hills@sunflower.com writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Roger & Lina Hill" <hills@sunflower.com> Bob; Well, I for one have push rods on my 601 HDS, so that's one difference (no cables to go slack). Also, I have a big fat wing that probably resist flapping and/or breaking to a greater degree than the 601XL wing, even if a flutter does occur. Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:52 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US This is an interesting discussion to watch. Bryan, you are probably correct that the FAA would not be able to ground all the E-ABs out there but the FAA (and Zenith) would be well advised to "encourage" them to not fly if the FAA grounds the S-LSAs. I read the NTSB recommendation and it seems to raise some valid concerns about the design of the ailerons. If I were to put my life on the line, I would want a well researched rebuttal to the NTSB letter before I would fly it again. It is also not a case of the quality of the home builder that is being discussed here, assuming (s)he followed the plans. The NTSB is talking about a design issue which I really doubt any of the builders made significant changes to. The NTSB identifies two possible issues here. First, which Zenith agrees with, is maintaining the proper tension in the control cables. This is apparently critical to the design and Zenith should have identified it as such from the beginning. As a design, requiring the owner to inspect and measure the tension in the cables regularly seems like a poor choice if there is a low or no maintenance option such as mass-balancing. Second, the NTSB raises doubt whether the design is dynamically stable even with the cables in proper tension. They don't cite much to support this but I would want to see more investigation on this before my butt is on the line. I was also very surprised to read about the apparently non-standard (and inconsistent) techniques used to measure airspeeds for the design. I agree with George that this could turn into a circus which would not be good for anyone. We need reasonable follow-through without either hysteria or head-in-the-sand. I have a question to the 601 cognoscenti, how are the XL ailerons designed differently then the HD(S) ones? The NTSB letter was quite specific to the 601XL. Bob Collins Sunnyvale CA USA Bryan Martin wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin > <bryanmmartin@comcast.net> > > The FAA may be able to ground the S-LSAs, but there would be a real > problem grounding the E-ABs. There is no type certificate to take > action against. Each airplane is considered one of a kind. Many of the > E-ABs out there don't even have Zenith or Zodiac on the airworthiness > certificate. A person could build one and call it a Jones Gee-Whizz > Special on the certificate, then how could the FAA track it down? I > don't think there has been a single time in the history of the E-AB > category that the FAA has ever even considered grounding an > experimental design. > > Another thing is that the FAA doesn't have to pay any attention to > recommendations from the NTSB, and they often don't. > > F**k 'em, if I get the chance to fly mine to Sun'N'Fun this year, I > will. I'm not worried in the least about getting grounded by this BS. > I'm getting pretty tired of the government trying to protect me from > me. That's not the freaking job I'm paying them to do. > > On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:37 PM, DaveG601XL wrote: > >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "DaveG601XL" >> <david.m.gallagher@ge.com> >> >> Well the timing of this puts one heck of a bind on anybody's plans to >> fly to Sun-N-Fun next week in a 601XL. Myself in particular. I have >> confidence in my airplane making the trip, but I cannot afford to get >> grounded in Florida. I too, hope that this motivates action for >> whatever the proposed modifications. I do not want to spend all >> summer being grounded!! >> >> -------- >> David Gallagher >> 601 XL/Jabiru 3300 >> First flight 7/24/08 >> 70 hours and climbing! > > **************Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar! (http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000002)


    Message 39


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    Time: 08:32:30 PM PST US
    From: "George Swinford" <grs-pms@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Effects of Grounding 601XL
    John: The sky is not yet falling. At this point, the FAA has said and done nothing at all. The NTSB makes recommendations which the FAA may accept or reject. In many cases the FAA seems to take a "not invented here" attitude and rejects the NTSB recommendation. Also, it is not clear (to me, anyway) that the NTSB's authority extends to amateur-built aircraft. If I were in the happy position of having a 601XL project ready for inspection, I think I'd go ahead and give it a shot. The wheels of government often turn slowly. George ----- Original Message ----- From: John Smith To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:48 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Effects of Grounding 601XL I have been working on my 601XL like a mad-dog finishing it up and am waiting for the FAA to inspect my 601XL mid-May. I suppose the FAA won't inspect/issue me an airworthiness certificate no matter how well I build my airplane if the FAA ground the 601XL. Just my luck? As for Zenith, I hope they can be pro-active and address the potential fluttering issues whether real or imaginary so the 601XLs can regain the status as a flying machine and not as expensive three-wheels go-cart with wings. Ladies and gentlemen, it's only a matter of time before the FAA ground all 601XLs so let's have a beer or two and hopefully a fix or two come along by the time we get sobber.


    Message 40


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    Time: 09:14:03 PM PST US
    From: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    Could it be-the date-April 1st- (April fool) Joke for you guys in USA ? - Saludos Gary Gower... --- On Tue, 4/14/09, JAPhillipsGA@aol.com <JAPhillipsGA@aol.com> wrote: From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com <JAPhillipsGA@aol.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US Anybody notice the date of the NTSB letter to the FAA? - In a message dated 4/14/2009 11:14:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hills@sun flower.com writes: > Bob; Well, I for one have push rods on my 601 HDS, so that's one difference (no cables to go slack).-- Also, I have a big fat wing that probably resist flapping and/or breaking to a greater degree than the 601XL wing, even if a flutter does occur. Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:52 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US This is an interesting discussion to watch. Bryan, you are probably correct that the FAA would not be able to ground all the E-ABs out there but the FAA (and Zenith) would be well advised to "encourage" them to not fly if the FAA grounds the S-LSAs. I read the NTSB recommendation and it seems to raise some valid concerns about the design of the ailerons. If I were to put my life on the line, I would want a well researched rebuttal to the NTSB letter before I would fly it again. It is also not a case of the quality of the home builder that is being discussed here, assuming (s)he followed the plans. The NTSB is talking about a design issue which I really doubt any of the builders made significant changes to. The NTSB identifies two possible issues here. First, which Zenith agrees with, is maintaining the proper tension in the control cables. This is apparently critical to the design and Zenith should have identified it as such from the beginning. As a design, requiring the owner to inspect and measure the tension in the cables regularly seems like a poor choice if there is a low or no maintenance option such as mass-balancing. Second, the NTSB raises doubt whether the design is dynamically stable even with the cables in proper tension. They don't cite much to support this but I would want to see more investigation on this before my butt is on the line. I was also very surprised to read about the apparently non-standard (and inconsistent) techniques used to measure airspeeds for the design. I agree with George that this could turn into a circus which would not be good for anyone. We need reasonable follow-through without either hysteria or head-in-the-sand. I have a question to the 601 cognoscenti, how are the XL ailerons designed differently then the HD(S) ones? The NTSB letter was quite specific to the 601XL. Bob Collins Sunnyvale CA USA Bryan Martin wrote: > <bryanmmartin@comcast.net> > > The FAA may be able to ground the S-LSAs, but there would be a real > problem grounding the E-ABs. There is no type certificate to take > action against. Each airplane is considered one of a kind. Many of the > E-ABs out there don't even have Zenith or Zodiac on the airworthiness > certificate. A person could build one and call it a Jones Gee-Whizz > Special on the certificate, then how could the FAA track it down? I > don't think there has been a single time in the history of the E-AB > category that the FAA has ever even considered grounding an > experimental design. > > Another thing is that the FAA doesn't have to pay any attention to > recommendations from the NTSB, and they often don't. > > F**k 'em, if I get the chance to fly mine to Sun'N'Fun this year, I > will. I'm not worried in the least about getting grounded by this BS. > I'm getting pretty tired of the government trying to protect me from > me. That's not the freaking job I'm paying them to do. > > On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:37 PM, DaveG601XL wrote: > >> <david.m.gallagher@ge.com> >> >> Well the timing of this puts one heck of a bind on anybody's plans to >> fly to Sun-N-Fun next week in a 601XL.- Myself in particular.- I hav e >> confidence in my airplane making the trip, but I cannot afford to get >> grounded in Florida.- I too, hope that this motivates action for >> whatever the proposed modifications.- I do not want to spend all >> summer being grounded!! >> >> -------- >> David Gallagher >> 601 XL/Jabiru 3300 >> First flight 7/24/08 >> 70 hours and =================== ==== the ties Day ================ ======= - - - - - -- - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS = ====================== - - - - -- - List Contribution Web Site sp; - - - - - - - - - - - - ================== ======= Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the R adio Toolbar! =0A=0A=0A


    Message 41


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    Time: 09:32:09 PM PST US
    From: "George Swinford" <grs-pms@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    It was dated today, the 14th. George Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Gower To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:12 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US Could it be the date April 1st (April fool) Joke for you guys in USA? Saludos Gary Gower... --- On Tue, 4/14/09, JAPhillipsGA@aol.com <JAPhillipsGA@aol.com> wrote: From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com <JAPhillipsGA@aol.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US To: zenith-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 11:25 PM Anybody notice the date of the NTSB letter to the FAA? In a message dated 4/14/2009 11:14:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hills@sunflower.com writes: <hills@sunflower.com> Bob; Well, I for one have push rods on my 601 HDS, so that's one difference (no cables to go slack). Also, I have a big fat wing that probably resist flapping and/or breaking to a greater degree than the 601XL wing, even if a flutter does occur. Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:52 PM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US <bobcollins42@gmail.com> This is an interesting discussion to watch. Bryan, you are probably correct that the FAA would not be able to ground all the E-ABs out there but the FAA (and Zenith) would be well advised to "encourage" them to not fly if the FAA grounds the S-LSAs. I read the NTSB recommendation and it seems to raise some valid concerns about the design of the ailerons. If I were to put my life on the line, I would want a well researched rebuttal to the NTSB letter before I would fly it again. It is also not a case of the quality of the home builder that is being discussed here, assuming (s)he followed the plans. The NTSB is talking about a design issue which I really doubt any of the builders made significant changes to. The NTSB identifies two possible issues here. First, which Zenith agrees with, is maintaining the proper tension in the control cables. This is apparently critical to the design and Zenith should have identified it as such from the beginning. As a design, requiring the owner to inspect and measure the tension in the cables regularly seems like a poor choice if there is a low or no maintenance option such as mass-balancing. Second, the NTSB raises doubt whether the design is dynamically stable even with the cables in proper tension. They don't cite much to support this but I would want to see more investigation on this before my butt is on the line. I was also very surprised to read about the apparently non-standard (and inconsistent) techniques used to measure airspeeds for the design. I agree with George that this could turn into a circus which would not be good for anyone. We need reasonable follow-through without either hysteria or head-in-the-sand. I have a question to the 601 cognoscenti, how are the XL ailerons designed differently then the HD(S) ones? The NTSB letter was quite specific to the 601XL. Bob Collins Sunnyvale CA USA Bryan Martin wrote: > <bryanmmartin@comcast.net> > > The FAA may be able to ground the S-LSAs, but there would be a real > problem grounding the E-ABs. There is no type certificate to take > action against. Each airplane is considered one of a kind. Many of the > E-ABs out there don't even have Zenith or Zodiac on the airworthiness > certificate. A person could build one and call it a Jones Gee-Whizz > Special on the certificate, then how could the FAA track it down? I > don't think there has been a single time in the history of the E-AB > category that the FAA has ever even considered grounding an > experimental design. > > Another thing is that the FAA doesn't have to pay any attention to > recommendations from the NTSB, and they often don't. > > F**k 'em, if I get the chance to fly mine to Sun'N'Fun this year, I > will. I'm not worried in the least about getting grounded by this BS. > I'm getting pretty tired of the government trying to protect me from > me. That's not the freaking job I'm paying them to do. > > On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:37 PM, DaveG601XL wrote: > >> <david.m.gallagher@ge.com> >> >> Well the timing of this puts one heck of a bind on anybody's plans to >> fly to Sun-N-Fun next week in a 601XL. Myself in particular. I have >> confidence in my airplane making the trip, but I cannot afford to get >> grounded in Florida. I too, hope that this motivates action for >> whatever the proposed modifications. I do not want to spend all >> summer being grounded!! >> >> -------- >> David Gallagher >> 601 XL/Jabiru 3300 >> First flight 7/24/08 >> 70 hours and ======================= the ties Day ======================= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ======================= - List Contribution Web Site sp; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar! arget=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List =nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution


    Message 42


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    Time: 10:14:21 PM PST US
    From: Peter Chapman <pchap@primus.ca>
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    While the NTSB presumably doesn't have to give anyone a heads-up on anything, it is disappointing that Zenith "wasn't ahead of the story" on this at all, even if it may not have been their fault. It seems ironic to have received an emailed newsletter from Zenith that is "all sunshine", on the same day of the NTSB letters, April 14. I haven't been keeping close track, but the last I heard from Zenith was that they'd participate in the European load tests, but weren't really expecting to spend the money to test to the US standards too. That was late in February. Also, in a Chris Heintz letter responding to the British LAA restrictions the same month, he basically wrote that everything was rosy with the NTSB. Correct me if I'm wrong. Sorry to say but Zenith were either blind, blindsided, or keeping us in the blind. Peter Chapman Toronto, ON


    Message 43


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    Time: 11:33:48 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
    From: "Matt Ronics" <e_jocular@yahoo.com>
    "While the NTSB presumably doesn't have to give anyone a heads-up on anything, it is disappointing that Zenith "wasn't ahead of the story" on this at all, even if it may not have been their fault..... ...Sorry to say but Zenith were either blind, blindsided, or keeping us in the blind." "Let me assure everyone that Zenair is in close contact with the NTSB on this matter, and that if anything is discovered that could affect the safety of the Zodiac fleet, we will be notified immediately." (from Chris Heintz's letter April 24, 2008) This whole issue stinks, no matter how you look at it. I wish they would produce a match-hole drilled 601HD/S kit. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239275#239275




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