Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:21 AM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Martin Pohl)
2. 06:46 AM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Gig Giacona)
3. 07:03 AM - Thoughts regarding Flutter ()
4. 08:45 AM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Sabrina)
5. 09:22 AM - Re: Re: Aileron Flutter (japhillipsga@aol.com)
6. 11:09 AM - ZBAGers to the rescue ()
7. 11:39 AM - Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (hansriet)
8. 11:45 AM - Re: drill bit for A6 pop rivet? (hansriet)
9. 11:48 AM - Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (Rick Lindstrom)
10. 12:17 PM - What did ZBAG do? (Peter Chapman)
11. 12:18 PM - Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (PatrickW)
12. 12:39 PM - Re: Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (Paul Mulwitz)
13. 12:44 PM - Re: What did ZBAG do? (Gig Giacona)
14. 12:47 PM - Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (Davcoberly@wmconnect.com)
15. 12:51 PM - Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (Gig Giacona)
16. 12:53 PM - Re: What did ZBAG do? (Dave)
17. 12:53 PM - Aileron mass balance (VideoFlyer@aol.com)
18. 12:53 PM - Re: drill bit for A6 pop rivet? (Gig Giacona)
19. 01:04 PM - Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (Ken Arnold)
20. 01:06 PM - Re: Aileron mass balance (steve)
21. 01:10 PM - Re: What did ZBAG do? (PatrickW)
22. 01:20 PM - Re: Re: drill bit for A6 pop rivet? (Carlos Sa)
23. 01:34 PM - Modesto Bee article on 601 (Dan Wilde)
24. 01:34 PM - Re: What did ZBAG do? (Gig Giacona)
25. 01:34 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Sabrina)
26. 01:35 PM - Re: drill bit for A6 pop rivet? (Gig Giacona)
27. 02:03 PM - Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (John Smith)
28. 02:11 PM - Re: Aileron mass balance (Thruster87)
29. 02:12 PM - Re: Re: What did ZBAG do? (Dave)
30. 02:16 PM - Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Jeffrey J Paris)
31. 02:23 PM - Re: Re: What did ZBAG do? (Peter Chapman)
32. 03:07 PM - Re: Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (Bryan Martin)
33. 03:23 PM - Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US (Sabrina)
34. 03:30 PM - Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (ROBERT SCEPPA)
35. 03:42 PM - Wanted: Jabiru 3300, used or new. Suggestions? (messydeer)
36. 03:44 PM - Re: Re: Aileron mass balance (steve)
37. 03:46 PM - Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (hansriet)
38. 03:50 PM - Re: Aileron mass balance (hansriet)
39. 03:51 PM - Re: Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (steve)
40. 03:59 PM - Re: Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (John Smith)
41. 03:59 PM - Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (hansriet)
42. 04:02 PM - Re: Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (jaybannist@cs.com)
43. 04:07 PM - Re: Re: Aileron mass balance (steve)
44. 04:12 PM - Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (hansriet)
45. 04:16 PM - Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (John Smith)
46. 04:16 PM - Re: Re: Aileron mass balance (George Swinford)
47. 04:16 PM - Re: Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (Craig Payne)
48. 04:18 PM - Re: Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (George Swinford)
49. 04:25 PM - Re: Aileron mass balance (jetboy)
50. 04:26 PM - Re: Aileron mass balance (hansriet)
51. 04:28 PM - Ailerons mass balance (VideoFlyer@aol.com)
52. 04:46 PM - Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (Sabrina)
53. 05:17 PM - Re: Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (Terry Phillips)
54. 05:30 PM - Re: Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (ihab.awad@gmail.com)
55. 05:52 PM - Aurora (Ken Lilja)
56. 05:59 PM - Re: Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (Terry Phillips)
57. 06:11 PM - Re: Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
58. 06:33 PM - cable tension 601 hds ? (Roger & Lina Hill)
59. 06:40 PM - Re: ZBAG to the Rescue...... (Larry Hursh)
60. 06:41 PM - Re: Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (Jay Maynard)
61. 07:33 PM - Re: Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (Terry Phillips)
62. 07:43 PM - Re: Re: ZBAGers to the rescue (ihab.awad@gmail.com)
63. 08:13 PM - Re: cable tension 601 hds ? (LarryMcFarland)
64. 08:18 PM - Re: Re: Aileron mass balance (George Swinford)
65. 08:37 PM - Re: cable tension 601 hds ? (ihab.awad@gmail.com)
66. 08:41 PM - Re: cable tension 601 hds ? (Roger & Lina Hill)
67. 09:00 PM - Attention all Rednecks (dougsire)
68. 09:12 PM - Re: Attention all Rednecks (Gig Giacona)
69. 09:47 PM - Re: Attention all Rednecks (Frank Roskind)
70. 09:47 PM - Re: Attention all Rednecks (fgantt@texaviation.com)
71. 10:04 PM - Re: Attention all Rednecks (Craig Payne)
72. 11:13 PM - Re: Attention all Rednecks (Jay Maynard)
73. 11:16 PM - Re: Attention all Rednecks (Jay Maynard)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
Jim, I totally agree with you! By knowing that there might be a flutter issue (several
reports about flutter by XL-pilots) and by knowing that elevator authority
is rather over-sensitive, it is a reasonable and resolvable task to add effective
modifications.
Since more than half a year several european aviation authorities suspect that
flutter might have caused these accidents with g-loads beyond ultimate load (or
how can you explain wing failure out of level flight aside from oversteering
the controls?). That is why the German FAA is planning GVTs and that is also
why the UK LAA is modifying one of their XLs with aileron mass balance (beside
other minor modifications) for flight testing. The NTSB is now "only" quoting
what UK LAA and German FAA were already saying since October 2008.
This only as a thought to the people that are discussing about ZBAG being the one
that mobbed the NTSB... :D
Anyway, someone asked about the critical speed before onset of possible aileron
flutter: the German FAA issued a SD, stating a maximum speed of 180 km/h (similar
to 97 kts). This speed must be based on some solide engineering judgement!
If my XL would be flying already, I would stick to this maximum speed until
more tests are done (GVT, FEM-simulation) and a positive result or modification
is available.
Cheers
Martin
--------
Martin Pohl
Zodiac XL QBK
8645 Jona, Switzerland
http://www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL/Main.html
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239681#239681
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
psm(at)att.net wrote:
> Hi Gig,
>
> For some reason you seem to want to make this a personal issue. It
> is not.
Not personal at all. I just don't follow your logic.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239690#239690
Message 3
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| Subject: | Thoughts regarding Flutter |
I believe the problems that we are experiencing with the 601XL are not
the result of flutter or any other single issue but instead the result
of 4 specific and simultaneous factors that have caused the wing
failures of our aircraft.
First, why not flutter? Because in the instances that have been reported
to be flutter, the time that was required to identify the vibration and
to escape from its destructiveness has been too long (more than a few
seconds). My opinion is that we are seeing a simple harmonic vibration
of the ailerons that, depending on the tension in the cables, can be
considered as scary enough to cause real concern.
My first theory is that the problem we are seeing with the ailerons is
harmonic vibration, not flutter, and is dependent on the tension of the
cables. In my flight, the cables had loosened to the point that I could
feel a 1-2 inch movement of the stick without any corresponding movement
of the ailerons. As I went over the Valley River Mountains near Andrews,
NC, I could see the ailerons start to vibrate, so I decreased the
throttle and the vibration stopped. In another case locally, the pilot
had loose cables and, during flights above Va, experienced severe
vibration. He tested this by purposely flying into that portion of the
envelope repeatedly (observing the same type of vibration each time) and
then to test it again after tightening his cables. In his case, the
vibration stopped above Va. I believe that depending on the combination
of engine, aerodynamics and cable tension, the vibration of the ailerons
could be seen as mild or severe... but not flutter. Another possible
instance of severe vibration was a 601 in Georgia that experienced
vibration after flying over a power plant and which required a dive to
eliminate the vibration. It is known that to reduce flutter, you need to
reduce airpseed and pray. But in this case the means of reducing the
aileron vibration was to dive at speeds that were close to Vne. Not the
usual way to stop flutter and in any case, the resulting actions took
considerably longer than required to avoid desctruction from flutter. In
two of the three cases mentioned, the vibration was severe enough to
apparently cause movement of the wing, as stated by the pilots.
So, if the problem is just vibration how does that cause destruction of
the wings? My second theory is that the wings of every aircraft that has
failed to date was structurally compromised at some point in the history
of the aircraft. Recently, I was talking to a gentleman here in
Andrews, NC that was in the Lakeland bound 601 just a week or so before
it lost its wings and was destroyed. He stated that while flying with
the pilot over the mountains near here, they experienced what he
described as severe turbulance. He mentioned to the pilot how really bad
the turbulance was and the pilot stated that "this was nothing compared
to a week earlier". Apparently the turbulance was so bad that the pilot
called the experience "bone crushing". As for the Yuba City 601, the
owner of that aircraft had stated that there was an indication of
"smoking rivets" on the bottom of the wings. This condition usually is
the result of rivets becoming loose and creating a condition that
results in a decrease in structural integrity. The Yuba City aircraft
also (I believe) was flying near or in mountainess areas during its
history.
The third condition that must be met is looseness of the aileron cables.
I believe that vibration will not occur while the cables are tight.
And the fourth criteria for these wing failures is flying above Va
(maneuvering speed).
So to summarize, if these 4 conditions are met, the probability is high
for the aircraft to be lost even in mild turbulance.
Once again, they are:
1. Aileron Vibrations
2. Previous structural damage to the wings.
3. Loose Aileron Cables
4. Speeds above Va
I had originally thought that the only way we could explain the loss of
wings on the 601XL was from flutter, however, since 98% of the fleet has
not lost its wings and yet reports continue to surface of severe
vibration, loose cables, etc., it seems to me that there must be a
combination of problems that occur simultaneously that result in
destruction of the wings.
Anyone who has experienced severe turbulance should carefully look over
their wing roots for damage and avoid flight, especially if they also
have loose cables!
Scott Thatcher, N601EL
601XL with WW Corvair, 25 Hours
Just finishing first Condition Inspection
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
The Sabrina Mark 1 took back to the sky today after some correspondence back and
forth with you know who... kept under 110 indicated, one pattern touch and
go no flaps, one full stop with full flaps...
Emergency parachute repacked and on back, canopy ejection pins 'primed' (oiled)
and ready...
nothing to report other than a beautiful day here in Aurora...
new pre-flight item, check for emergency ADs and/or groundings on FAA.gov
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239709#239709
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Flutter |
Martin, simple speed may not be the only factor to aileron flutter. My XL was flutter
tested early in Phase I at 180 mph, but later I experienced aileron flutter
at about 135-140 so something other than just air flowing around the aileron
can cause it to occur and?loose cables may or may not be a contributor ? I
have since flown my XL well past 150 many times and not had flutter again (thank
You Sweet Jesus ! ) so go figure.?I really wish I (and a whole bunch of you
all)? knew more about what causes aileron flutter.? Best regards, Bill
P.S. My favorite place of the face of out earth is Zermatt.
-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Pohl <mpohl@pohltec.ch>
Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 8:20 am
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
Jim, I totally agree with you! By knowing that there might be a flutter issue
(several reports about flutter by XL-pilots) and by knowing that elevator
authority is rather over-sensitive, it is a reasonable and resolvable task to
add effective modifications.
Since more than half a year several european aviation authorities suspect that
flutter might have caused these accidents with g-loads beyond ultimate load (or
how can you explain wing failure out of level flight aside from oversteering the
controls?). That is why the German FAA is planning GVTs and that is also why the
UK LAA is modifying one of their XLs with aileron mass balance (beside other
minor modifications) for flight testing. The NTSB is now "only" quoting what UK
LAA and German FAA were already saying since October 2008.
This only as a thought to the people that are discussing about ZBAG being the
one that mobbed the NTSB... :D
Anyway, someone asked about the critical speed before onset of possible aileron
flutter: the German FAA issued a SD, stating a maximum speed of 180 km/h
(similar to 97 kts). This speed must be based on some solide engineering
judgement! If my XL would be flying already, I would stick to this maximum speed
until more tests are done (GVT, FEM-simulation) and a positive result or
modification is available.
Cheers
Martin
--------
Martin Pohl
Zodiac XL QBK
8645 Jona, Switzerland
http://www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL/Main.html
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239681#239681
======
Message 6
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| Subject: | ZBAGers to the rescue |
Well guys and gals, I'm sorry to have to tell you that the ZBAGers have screwed
my pooch for the time being. My airworthiness inspection was scheduled for 2PM
this afternoon. At the urging of the NTSB, the FAA has decided not to issue
any more airworthiness certificates on 601XLs until this mess is sorted out.
Realistic estimates of delay would range from a couple of months to never. I cannot
express how angry and frustrated I am at having busybody types save me from
their imaginary demon against my will. My inspector called this morning with
the news that his superiors told him to call off the inspection indefinitely.
I know that I will be accused of sticking my head in the sand, but my counter-accusation
is that some who have their heads stuck up their butts are sticking
their noses in my business. (How's that for a mixed metaphor?)
Now here is the insanity of the situation... if the inspection had been done yesterday
or the day before, my plane would be legal to fly. That same plane today
is in some beaurocratic limbo that may prohibit its flight for many months.
Go ahead and try to convince me that this would have happened anyway if the ZBAGers
had simply minded their own business. I truly don't mind that their instincts
move them to investigate and explore options and mods on their own planes...
that is well within their rights. What I object to is the fact that while
they carry on this pissing contest, all our shoes are getting wet. I know, I
know... I am being saved from certain death in this tradgically flawed airframe...
got all that. Thanks just the same, I'm not that impressed. Or grateful
for that matter.
Sorry for the rant but I am a responsible, self reliant sort of person who
resents being nannied to death.
Ed Moody II
N4568G
601XL / Jabiru 3300 (very expensive go-cart right now)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
Ed,
That's a major bummer, I feel your pain.
Hopefully for you and for the rest of us, Zenith will soon release an approved
aileron balance modification and this will all go away.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239726#239726
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: drill bit for A6 pop rivet? |
I'm not an expert, but you'll find a drill bit size chart at this site:
http://bobmay.astronomy.net/misc/drillchart.htm
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239728#239728
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
Well, Ed, I know it's not much consolation, but you're not alone. I know of several
folks who are in your exact same position - ready for inspection but unable
to find a DAR who will sign them off.
The law of unintended consequences rears its ugly head again.
Maybe this will fast-track a resolution that we can all benefit from. I hope.
Rick Lindstrom
Zenvair N42KP
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
>From: dredmoody@cox.net
>Sent: Apr 17, 2009 2:08 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: ZBAGers to the rescue
>
>
>Well guys and gals, I'm sorry to have to tell you that the ZBAGers have screwed
my pooch for the time being. My airworthiness inspection was scheduled for 2PM
this afternoon. At the urging of the NTSB, the FAA has decided not to issue
any more airworthiness certificates on 601XLs until this mess is sorted out.
Realistic estimates of delay would range from a couple of months to never. I
cannot express how angry and frustrated I am at having busybody types save me
from their imaginary demon against my will. My inspector called this morning with
the news that his superiors told him to call off the inspection indefinitely.
I know that I will be accused of sticking my head in the sand, but my counter-accusation
is that some who have their heads stuck up their butts are sticking
their noses in my business. (How's that for a mixed metaphor?)
>
>Now here is the insanity of the situation... if the inspection had been done yesterday
or the day before, my plane would be legal to fly. That same plane today
is in some beaurocratic limbo that may prohibit its flight for many months.
Go ahead and try to convince me that this would have happened anyway if the
ZBAGers had simply minded their own business. I truly don't mind that their instincts
move them to investigate and explore options and mods on their own planes...
that is well within their rights. What I object to is the fact that while
they carry on this pissing contest, all our shoes are getting wet. I know,
I know... I am being saved from certain death in this tradgically flawed airframe...
got all that. Thanks just the same, I'm not that impressed. Or grateful
for that matter.
>
>Sorry for the rant but I am a responsible, self reliant sort of person who
>resents being nannied to death.
>
>Ed Moody II
>N4568G
>601XL / Jabiru 3300 (very expensive go-cart right now)
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | What did ZBAG do? |
There's a lot of talk about how ZBAG might have contributed to the crisis.
Does anyone here know what exactly ZBAG did in relation to the NTSB?
Did the NTSB approach ZBAG on its own, or after ZBAG asked questions
about crash details, or did ZBAG offer advice? Or how much "offering
opinions and suggestions" becomes "undue lobbying"?
Then we get into the issue of whether it is right to bring up issues,
or stay mum because the government agency might go off an do something rash?
Peter Chapman
Toronto, ON
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
Does the option exist to register it as something like an "Ed Special"?
Or "converting" to the 650 (and then calling it a 650) by sending in the first
page of your drawings (and $400 or something like that) which gets you a new build
number saying it's a 650 from Zenith.
Lot of us who have started building in the last 2 or 3 years (myself included)
are in the middle ground of having airplanes that started as XL's, but have incorporated
many 650 parts. So are they "XL's" or "650's"?
Hope this all works out for the best.
Patrick
N63PZ - XL/650/Corvair - getting close................
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239731#239731
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
I don't want to bet a lot of money on the FAA's brilliance, but even
those bureaucrats are smart enough to realize a 650 is just a renamed
XL. I, for one, firmly believe the reason ZAC changed the name was
to avoid liability for producing the XL. I remember they originally
took the firm position that they would not produce the 650 as a kit plane.
Paul
XL grounded
At 12:18 PM 4/17/2009, you wrote:
>Or "converting" to the 650 (and then calling it a 650) by sending in
>the first page of your drawings (and $400 or something like that)
>which gets you a new build number saying it's a 650 from Zenith.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: What did ZBAG do? |
I don't know exactly what ZBAG did but the Freedom of Information Act request has
been received by the NTSB and they called me to confirm they have received.
Since this is the government we are talking about I'm sure it will take a while
probably a month to get the information. When I get it you can be assured that
the Zenith builder community will have full access to it.
For the record here is the specific wording I used in my request.
> I would like to request any information that went into the decision to
> issue (Safety Recommendation A-09-30{urgent}through A-09-37 and
> A-09-38 through A-09-40) that came from the organization refereed to
> as ZBAG or Zenith Builders Analysis Group or any individual believed
> by the NTSB to be associated with ZBAG.
pchap(at)primus.ca wrote:
> There's a lot of talk about how ZBAG might have contributed to the crisis.
>
> Does anyone here know what exactly ZBAG did in relation to the NTSB?
>
> Did the NTSB approach ZBAG on its own, or after ZBAG asked questions
> about crash details, or did ZBAG offer advice? Or how much "offering
> opinions and suggestions" becomes "undue lobbying"?
>
> Then we get into the issue of whether it is right to bring up issues,
> or stay mum because the government agency might go off an do something rash?
>
>
> Peter Chapman
> Toronto, ON
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239737#239737
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
So what does Zenith say now! That we can't get an inspection done.
David Coberly 98% done 601XL
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
If you mean legal liability there is nothing about coming up with a new name or
in this case number that would reduce Zenith's liability.
psm(at)att.net wrote:
> I don't want to bet a lot of money on the FAA's brilliance, but even
> those bureaucrats are smart enough to realize a 650 is just a renamed
> XL. I, for one, firmly believe the reason ZAC changed the name was
> to avoid liability for producing the XL. I remember they originally
> took the firm position that they would not produce the 650 as a kit plane.
>
> Paul
> XL grounded
>
> At 12:18 PM 4/17/2009, you wrote:
>
> > Or "converting" to the 650 (and then calling it a 650) by sending in
> > the first page of your drawings (and $400 or something like that)
> > which gets you a new build number saying it's a 650 from Zenith.
> >
> >
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239741#239741
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: What did ZBAG do? |
Nobody knows for sure that ZBAG had major role in this, it looks like they
might have. Someone here made the accusation, after that it became a
supposed fact. Kind of interesting to watch the folks angry about people
looking at some evidence and leaping to a conclusion turning around and
doing the same thing. What's the word for that again???
It sucks, no question, hope it's resolved quickly.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Chapman" <pchap@primus.ca>
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 4:13 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: What did ZBAG do?
>
>
> There's a lot of talk about how ZBAG might have contributed to the crisis.
>
> Does anyone here know what exactly ZBAG did in relation to the NTSB?
>
> Did the NTSB approach ZBAG on its own, or after ZBAG asked questions about
> crash details, or did ZBAG offer advice? Or how much "offering opinions
> and suggestions" becomes "undue lobbying"?
>
> Then we get into the issue of whether it is right to bring up issues, or
> stay mum because the government agency might go off an do something rash?
>
>
> Peter Chapman
> Toronto, ON
Message 17
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| Subject: | Aileron mass balance |
Would adding some mass to the aileron bell crank (6W10-1) inside the wing
serve to balance the aileron? It would move horizontally at a right angle
to the direction of aileron travel, but it seems to me that it would
accomplish the same thing. There's plenty of room between ribs seven and
eight,
so a fairly long moment arm could be used, lessening the total weight.
I'm
certainly not an engineer, and maybe my theory is totally wrong, but
.....if I'm right, this seems like it could be a fairly easy retrofit.
Dave Harms
N618PZ 601XL/Corvair
**************Join ChristianMingle.com=AE FREE! Meet Christian Singles in
your area. Start now!
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atforma&adid=aolfooter&newurl=reg_path.html)
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: drill bit for A6 pop rivet? |
The memory isn't what it used to be but for some reason I'm think 3/16th is what
I used.
carlossa52(at)gmail.com wrote:
> Can someone confirm that the drill bit for A6 rivets is #10?
>
> Thanks
>
> Carlos
> CH601-HD, plans
> working on centre wing
>
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239742#239742
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
David,
Have you called Zenith?
Ken
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Davcoberly@wmconnect.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: ZBAGers to the rescue
So what does Zenith say now! That we can't get an inspection done.
David Coberly 98% done 601XL
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron mass balance |
The control surface must be balanced not the linkage.....
I think I read you post correctly..
----- Original Message -----
From: VideoFlyer@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 12:55 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Aileron mass balance
Would adding some mass to the aileron bell crank (6W10-1) inside the
wing serve to balance the aileron? It would move horizontally at a
right angle to the direction of aileron travel, but it seems to me that
it would accomplish the same thing. There's plenty of room between ribs
seven and eight, so a fairly long moment arm could be used, lessening
the total weight. I'm certainly not an engineer, and maybe my theory is
totally wrong, but .....if I'm right, this seems like it could be a
fairly easy retrofit.
Dave Harms
N618PZ 601XL/Corvair
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Join ChristianMingle.com=AE FREE! Meet Christian Singles in your area.
Start now!
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: What did ZBAG do? |
Since the focus is on flutter and unbalanced ailerons, a quick design of aileron
balancers from Chris Heintz himself would be a way for Zenith - and it's customers
- to get out from under this.
I sure wish Chris Heintz would say something authoritative on this whole thing.
- Pat
--------
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239750#239750
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: drill bit for A6 pop rivet? |
Good news: your memory is still good.
BTW, the answer was in ZAC's documentation:
http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/use-tls.htm
Carlos
2009/4/17 Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com>
>
> The memory isn't what it used to be but for some reason I'm think 3/16th is
> what I used.
>
>
> carlossa52(at)gmail.com wrote:
> > Can someone confirm that the drill bit for A6 rivets is #10?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Carlos
> > CH601-HD, plans
> > working on centre wing
> >
> >
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Modesto Bee article on 601 |
Oakdale deaths explained
Feds blame plane design for killing two fliers in 2006
By Adam Ashton
Federal safety investigators didn't give many answers about what caused
a plane flown by Chuck Billington and Dave Mesenheimer to crash outside
Oakdale three years ago.
That changed this week when the National Transportation Safety Board
moved to ground the two-seat plane they were flying when they crashed in
a walnut orchard near the Oakdale Airport.
The NTSB says the Zodiac CH-601XL has design flaws that can cause its
wings to flutter and break.
<#> <#> <#> <#>
crash
<http://media.modbee.com/smedia/2009/04/16/12/308-billingtoncrash.standalone.prod_affiliate.11.jpg>
<http://media.modbee.com/smedia/2009/04/16/20/877-LIVE_p0417_17b3mesen.standalone.prod_affiliate.11.jpg>chuck
<http://media.modbee.com/smedia/2009/04/16/20/257-LIVE_p0417_17b3billington.standalone.prod_affiliate.11.jpg>
*
The National Transportation Safety Board this week cited six
incidents in its decision to recommend the grounding of the
two-seat CH-601XL, the model Chuck Billington and Dave Mesenheimer
flew when they crashed near the Oakdale Airport three years ago.
They were:
o *Feb. 8, 2006,* Billington's plane wings collapsed outside
of Oakdale, killing him and flight instructor Mesenheimer.
o *Nov. 4, 2006,* a CH-601XL broke up in flight near Yuba
City, causing two deaths.
o *Feb. 5, 2008,* a CH-601XL crashed near Barcelona, Spain,
after its wings folded up, causing two deaths.
o *April 7, 2008,* a CH-601XL broke up in flight near Polk
City, Fla., killing one.
o *Sept. 14, 2008,* a CH-601XL crashed in the Netherlands,
killing two.
o *March 3, 2009,* a CH-601XL broke up in flight while
cruising near Antelope Island, Utah, causing one death.
Eight others have died in five crashes since the one that killed
Billington and Mesenheimer.
"The fact they found issues with the plane does not surprise me," said
Billington's son, Tim. "My father and Mr. Mesenheimer had over 50 years
of experience flying between them. If anyone could have landed the plane
safely, they could. It saddens me that eight more people had to lose
their lives; eight more families had to endure the loss of their loved
ones before anyone recognized there was an issue with this particular
model of aircraft."
"Everybody I've talked to locally has always felt there's been a problem
with the aircraft design, and it's nice to know the NTSB has come around
to our way of thinking," said Larry Askew, who founded the Modesto
Flight Center with Mesenheimer more than 20 years ago.
"It kind of vindicates our feeling that there wasn't any pilot error."
Zenith Aircraft of Missouri designed the plane and sells it as a kit
that hobbyists can build. On its Web site, the company posted a response
to the NTSB report that read:
"We continue to believe wing flutter will not occur if the control
cables are adjusted properly. Nonetheless, we are carefully considering
the points raised in the memo, including whether the Zodiac CH-601XL is
susceptible to wing flutter. Each accident discussed in the NTSB memo
occurred under different circumstances. Some of the accidents are still
being investigated and what caused those accidents has not been determined."
The Federal Aviation Administration is reviewing the NTSB's
recommendation to ground the plane. The FAA has not moved to recall the
model.
Billington served for 20 years on the Modesto Irrigation District board
of directors. He owned three manufacturing companies and had a passion
for car racing.
He bought the plane from a Southern California pilot in late 2005 and
was flying with Mesenheimer to renew his pilot's license. Mesenheimer
had more than 30 years of experience as a flight instructor.
"At least it gives some very painful satisfaction that there was a
reason and there was something to it," Dick Hagerty, a longtime friend
of Billington, said about the NTSB report. "It clearly absolves everyone
here. They were flying it right, trusting that it was designed right."
Their crash was the first that the NTSB cited in describing its concerns
about the plane.
"The NTSB does not often recommend that all airplanes of a particular
type be prohibited from further flight," said NTSB Acting Chairman Mark
V. Rosenker. "In this case, we believe such action will save lives.
Unless the safety issues with this particular Zodiac model are
addressed, we are likely to see more accidents in which pilots and
passengers are killed in airplanes that they believed were safe to fly."
Dan Wilde
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: What did ZBAG do? |
d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico wrote:
> Someone here made the accusation, after that it became a supposed fact..
>
>
>
> ---
ZBAG data is quoted in the NTSB document. I sort of doubt NTSB guys in black camo
broke into the ZBAG members and engineers homes and offices and stole the info.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239753#239753
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
My test pilot also reported that it is the first time the tower referred to my
aircraft as a "Sabrina."
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239754#239754
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: drill bit for A6 pop rivet? |
No one is more surprised than I am that I was right.
carlossa52(at)gmail.com wrote:
> Good news: your memory is still good.
>
> BTW, the answer was in ZAC's documentation: http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/use-tls.htm (http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/use-tls.htm)
>
>
> Carlos
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239756#239756
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
More bad news indeed, and as I predicted, I won't be able to get an airwort
hiness inspection scheduled for mid-May.- I am very disappointed as well
and have the urge to point fingers at one or more group/entity for the blam
e but that would not do any good at resolving the problems at hand.- Why
don't we vent our anger into something more constructive such as identifyin
g an entity that can provide quick and reliable fix(es) in a prompt and res
ponsible manners?- I could only come up with one entity and that is Zenit
h.- Why don't we find ways to pressure Zenith to provide possible solutio
ns quickly?=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "dredmoo
dy@cox.net" <dredmoody@cox.net>=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Fri
day, April 17, 2009 1:08:16 PM=0ASubject: Zenith-List: ZBAGers to the rescu
s and gals, I'm sorry to have to tell you that the ZBAGers have screwed my
pooch for the time being. My airworthiness inspection was scheduled for 2PM
this afternoon.- At the urging of the NTSB, the FAA has decided not to i
ssue any more airworthiness certificates on 601XLs until this mess is sorte
d out. Realistic estimates of delay would range from a couple of months to
never. I cannot express how angry and frustrated I am at having busybody ty
pes save me from their imaginary demon against my will. My inspector called
this morning with the news that his superiors told him to call off the ins
pection indefinitely. I know that I will be accused of sticking my head in
the sand, but my counter-accusation is that some who have their heads stuck
up their butts are sticking their noses in my business. (How's that for a
mixed metaphor?) =0A=0ANow here is the insanity of the situation... if the
inspection had been done yesterday or the day before, my plane would be leg
al to fly. That same plane today is in some beaurocratic limbo that may pro
hibit its flight for many months. Go ahead and try to convince me that this
would have happened anyway if the ZBAGers had simply minded their own busi
ness. I truly don't mind that their instincts move them to investigate and
explore options and mods on their own planes... that is well within their r
ights. What I object to is the fact that while they carry on this pissing c
ontest, all our shoes are getting wet. I know, I know... I am being saved f
rom certain death in this tradgically flawed airframe... got all that. Than
ks just the same, I'm not that impressed. Or grateful for that matter. =0A
=0ASorry for the rant but I am a responsible, self reliant sort of person w
ho =0Aresents being nannied to death. =0A=0AEd Moody II =0AN4568G =0A601XL
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List
========0A=0A=0A
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron mass balance |
The De Havilland DH-3 Drover has mass balance weights attached to the control rods.Check the pic at the following Cheers http://www.hars.org.au/fleet/drover/index.html
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239761#239761
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: What did ZBAG do? |
I understand. Is that level of evidence all the proof we need to reach a
valid conclusion ?
Some Zenith 601XLs have experienced inflight failures, should I then reach a
concrete conclusion based solely on that evidence also?
I haven't seen much in the way of proof of anything on either side here. I
see some incidents and a little possible evidence of cause on both cases.
Many people have suggested calming down and waiting it out. I'm hopeful that
Zenith will respond to clear this up quickly.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 5:33 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: What did ZBAG do?
> ZBAG data is quoted in the NTSB document.
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
Hello Listers Under Seige,Tommorrow I head to my airport to do some work on
my Jabiru 3300 powered Zenith Zodiac CH601XL that I built and have been flyi
ng for 250 satisfying and rewarding hours. =C2-I need to finish work on so
me cooling issues regarding my engine installation and then to be safe I'm g
oing to recheck my cable tensions throughout the airplane and upon a complet
e walk around inspection; I'm going flying to ascertain whether my "tweaks"
to my cooling baffles prove to control my CHT's a bit better.When I bought m
y kit I trusted the expertise of Zenith and Chris Heintz, I still do; rememb
er that this father has sons that fly his creations on a regular basis and w
hose livelihoods are derived from his excellent handy work. =C2-I followed
the instructions to the "T" and I know that doesn't guarantee my safety, be
cause I built it , I'm human and we all do make mistakes. =C2-However, I r
ealize that I have always handled any aircraft that I flew with kid gloves a
nd a fair amount of respect, just my nature I guess. =C2-Moreover, I alway
s listen to and attracted to learned people with=C2-reasoned and sound jud
gement; =C2- Keep training with good instructors, keep company with good p
ilots who exercise good judgement and skills and stay away from those that "
hanger fly" their exploits in a boastful and prideful way. =C2-Even though
I'm a lowly private pilot I think I've been able to accumulate close to 900
hours of accident free flying in 23 years due to the fact that I never try
to put myself in a position where I have to second guess myself. =C2-I don
't enjoy self imposed stomach aches if you catch my drift. =C2-I believe i
n staying proficient and that building, maintaining and flying my own aircra
ft has made me a better and safer pilot in th elong run. =C2-I know my bir
d inside and out!So until that day comes when the authorities decide to grou
nd me or my airplane I'm going to do my best to exercise my priviledges as a
n airman in a safe and respectful manner. =C2-As they say more will be rev
ealed and I refuse to live in the wreakage of the future!=C2-I won't even
begin to challenge any of the prognosticators, arm chair aerodynamacists and
nay sayers in this NTSB matter: =C2-Anger, frustration and lack of accura
te information is fueling a climate of fear and mistrust amongst us. Without
a doubt I want an pinpoint and relative answer to these unfortunate acciden
ts, I have over 1500 hours in 3 years of building at a personal expense of $
58,000.00 in my airplane which doesn't include me and my Fathers/building pa
rtners labor accounted for: Like most people, I am very keen to know the tru
th one way or another, but I will wait for a final decision from the FAA ( i
f there is one?) and continue to enjoy one of the greatest privilidges a per
son can enjoy in this life and in this country.Respectfully Submitted,Jeff P
aris N196ZP Kit# 6-4839
------------------------------------------------------------
Long Distance Service
Click here to get great long distance service for less!
http://tagline.excite.com/fc/FgElN1gxnPWuRIAmXBBmdBAAkT1e6TliwCtQwFZqTLlCIke
GkRZDIHqk0Mo/
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: What did ZBAG do? |
At 16:33 17-04-09, you wrote:
>ZBAG data is quoted in the NTSB document. I sort of doubt NTSB guys
>in black camo broke into the ZBAG members and engineers homes and
>offices and stole the info.
I still don't have much knowledge of the "what did ZBAG do" situation.
But it may help to know these things that I've learned:
- The ZBAG charter or mission statement does allow for them to
release reports to the NTSB. The founder's reasoning was that they
didn't want to be accused of withholding important safety information.
- An engineer who has done what are probably the most significant
calculations for ZBAG wrote about why he didn't want to release his
reports to the public:
>1. The reports contain imbeded propriety information.
>
>2. The reports do not offer any instant solutions to the problems
>for those looking for such ... in fact I could go further and state
>that much of the content will have little meaning nor value to non engineers.
>
>3. Payed up ZBAG'ers have been provided with a fairly detailed
>summary of the work I have done.
>
>4. I don't want to carry any liability associated with the release
>of such reports (bear in mind I have not been paid a cent for any of
>the work I have done). The NTSB have provided assurances that I am
>not liable for presenting my views to them in the course of their
>investigation.
This doesn't specifically state who talked to whom first, nor what
his intentions were, but (to me as an engineer) it sounds like a case
of one engineer talking to another engineer.
My personal opinion tends to be along the line that one shouldn't
shoot the messenger or whistleblower or what have you. It is still
highly unusual for the NTSB to recommend to ground (and the FAA to
not complete inspections), so their actions weren't easily
anticipated. It seems like it may become a sort of test case for how
the whole LSA concept is interpreted.
Peter Chapman
Toronto, ON
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
If you haven't registered the airplane yet, you can call it anything
you want. You are the manufacturer.
On Apr 17, 2009, at 3:18 PM, PatrickW wrote:
>
> Does the option exist to register it as something like an "Ed
> Special"?
>
> Or "converting" to the 650 (and then calling it a 650) by sending in
> the first page of your drawings (and $400 or something like that)
> which gets you a new build number saying it's a 650 from Zenith.
>
> Lot of us who have started building in the last 2 or 3 years (myself
> included) are in the middle ground of having airplanes that started
> as XL's, but have incorporated many 650 parts. So are they "XL's"
> or "650's"?
>
> Hope this all works out for the best.
>
> Patrick
> N63PZ - XL/650/Corvair - getting close................
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US |
Jeff,
Is it an optical illusion or is there a large bulge just aft of your main spar
uprights?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239769#239769
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
> Well guys, who love fly, guess what? the wonderful EPA has implimented
> New Pollution Limits caused by cars, trucks and big plants. I do think
> they have in mind any gasoline combustable engines, which means the
> homebuilt, antiques and classic planes not to mention the Antique autos
> and all the gambit you can think of. Welcome to Nazi Germany or socialism
> Food for thought> Do not archive..
--- On Fri, 4/17/09, dredmoody@cox.net <dredmoody@cox.net> wrote:
> From: dredmoody@cox.net <dredmoody@cox.net>
> Subject: Zenith-List: ZBAGers to the rescue
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 7:08 PM
> <dredmoody@cox.net>
>
> Well guys and gals, I'm sorry to have to tell you that the
> ZBAGers have screwed my pooch for the time being. My
> airworthiness inspection was scheduled for 2PM this
> afternoon. At the urging of the NTSB, the FAA has
> decided not to issue any more airworthiness certificates on
> 601XLs until this mess is sorted out. Realistic estimates of
> delay would range from a couple of months to never. I cannot
> express how angry and frustrated I am at having busybody
> types save me from their imaginary demon against my will. My
> inspector called this morning with the news that his
> superiors told him to call off the inspection indefinitely.
> I know that I will be accused of sticking my head in the
> sand, but my counter-accusation is that some who have their
> heads stuck up their butts are sticking their noses in my
> business. (How's that for a mixed metaphor?)
>
> Now here is the insanity of the situation... if the
> inspection had been done yesterday or the day before, my
> plane would be legal to fly. That same plane today is in
> some beaurocratic limbo that may prohibit its flight for
> many months. Go ahead and try to convince me that this would
> have happened anyway if the ZBAGers had simply minded their
> own business. I truly don't mind that their instincts move
> them to investigate and explore options and mods on their
> own planes... that is well within their rights. What I
> object to is the fact that while they carry on this pissing
> contest, all our shoes are getting wet. I know, I know... I
> am being saved from certain death in this tradgically flawed
> airframe... got all that. Thanks just the same, I'm not that
> impressed. Or grateful for that matter.
>
> Sorry for the rant but I am a responsible, self reliant
> sort of person who
> resents being nannied to death.
>
> Ed Moody II
> N4568G
> 601XL / Jabiru 3300 (very expensive go-cart right now)
>
> Email Forum -
> FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> List Contribution Web Site -
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Wanted: Jabiru 3300, used or new. Suggestions? |
I'm looking for a used or new Jabiru 3300 or where else besides Barnstormers and
Ebay to look.
Thanks,
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239775#239775
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron mass balance |
We can see mass balance weights below the ailerons.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thruster87" <alania@optusnet.com.au>
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 2:10 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron mass balance
>
> The De Havilland DH-3 Drover has mass balance weights attached to the
> control rods.Check the pic at the following Cheers
> http://www.hars.org.au/fleet/drover/index.html
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239761#239761
>
>
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
Nazi Germany equals socialism?
Man, I'm so happy to be part of this list, I learn so much every day.
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239777#239777
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron mass balance |
The thought is not totally crazy though.
I can imagine that springs attached to the bellcrank can have a damping effect
on any oscillations of the ailerons. The engineers on this list can now jump on
me and tell me why that would not work.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239778#239778
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
National/Socialism.....= NAZI
----- Original Message -----
From: "hansriet" <hansinla@mac.com>
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 3:46 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ZBAGers to the rescue
>
> Nazi Germany equals socialism?
> Man, I'm so happy to be part of this list, I learn so much every day.
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239777#239777
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
If you build from Zenith kit, renaming it won't accomplish much cause the b
uilder has to declare the kit type-and provide the bill of sales-to the
FAA.- If you start from XL, whether full or component kit, I suspect Zen
ith will provide you a XL bill of sales.- If you modify the kit, you shou
ld be ready to provide ample evidences why you modified the kit, soundness
and airworthiness-of the changes, and whether or not your kit still meets
amateur build qualifications.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A______________________________
__=0AFrom: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>=0ATo: zenith-list@matron
ics.com=0ASent: Friday, April 17, 2009 5:05:36 PM=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-Lis
Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>=0A=0AIf you haven't registered the airpla
ne yet, you can call it anything you want. You are the manufacturer.=0A=0AO
n Apr 17, 2009, at 3:18 PM, PatrickW wrote:=0A=0A> --> Zenith-List message
posted by: "PatrickW" <pwhoyt@yahoo.com>=0A> =0A> Does the option exist to
register it as something like an "Ed Special"?=0A> =0A> Or "converting" to
the 650 (and then calling it a 650) by sending in the first page of your dr
awings (and $400 or something like that) which gets you a new build number
saying it's a 650 from Zenith.=0A> =0A> Lot of us who have started building
in the last 2 or 3 years (myself included) are in the middle ground of hav
ing airplanes that started as XL's, but have incorporated many 650 parts.
- So are they "XL's" or "650's"?=0A> =0A> Hope this all works out for the
best.=0A> =0A> Patrick=0A> N63PZ - XL/650/Corvair - getting close.........
........=0A=0A=0A=0A--Bryan Martin=0AN61BM, CH 601 XL,=0ARAM Subaru, Stratus
=========================0A
===================0A=0A=0A
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
And that has exactly nothing to do with socialism.
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239780#239780
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
Yes, you do need to learn something. I am old enough to remember that the National
Socialist Party (German: Nationalsozialis), was commonly called the Nazi
Party. Apparently you are not old enough nor well-read enough to know that..
Jay Bannister
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: hansriet <hansinla@mac.com>
Sent: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 5:46 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ZBAGers to the rescue
Nazi Germany equals socialism?
Man, I'm so happy to be part of this list, I learn so much every day.
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239777#239777
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron mass balance |
The problem needs to be stopped at the source.
Not down the line of connection.
I guess you could use a lead control stick in your hand and it would feel
like there is no flutter.
A car shock absorber would help also. But these will not prevent the cause
which is aerodynamic.
Aerodynamic? when not flying through the air ( Static on the ground) you
probably will not have flutter. Just when air travels over the unbalanced
airfoil....
----- Original Message -----
From: "hansriet" <hansinla@mac.com>
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 3:49 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron mass balance
>
> The thought is not totally crazy though.
> I can imagine that springs attached to the bellcrank can have a damping
> effect on any oscillations of the ailerons. The engineers on this list can
> now jump on me and tell me why that would not work.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239778#239778
>
>
>
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
I'm just saying that Nationalsozialismus has nothing to do with socialism.
If you think it does, then it's you who needs to read up on the topic.
Anyway I don't see what this all has to do with the advise of the NTSC to the FAA
to ground airplanes during an investigation into crashes that have cost 10
souls.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239786#239786
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
Strange how they prohibit me from driving my marginally polluted ex-car and
they allow antiques cars, planes and motorcycles-that pollute many thous
and times more than my ex-car.- =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A__________________________
______=0AFrom: ROBERT SCEPPA <rjscep@yahoo.com>=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics
..com=0ASent: Friday, April 17, 2009 5:27:53 PM=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-List:
<rjscep@yahoo.com>=0A=0A=0A> Well guys, who love fly, guess what? the wond
erful EPA has implimented=0A> New- Pollution Limits caused by cars, truck
s and big plants. I do think=0A> they have in mind any gasoline combustable
engines, which means the =0A> homebuilt, antiques and classic planes not t
o mention the Antique autos=0A> and all the gambit you can think of. Welcom
e to Nazi Germany or socialism=0A> Food for thought> Do not archive..-
=0A=0A--- On Fri, 4/17/09, dredmoody@cox.net <dredmoody@cox.net> wrote:=0A
=0A> From: dredmoody@cox.net <dredmoody@cox.net>=0A> Subject: Zenith-List:
ZBAGers to the rescue=0A> To: zenith-list@matronics.com=0A> Date: Friday, A
y@cox.net>=0A> =0A> Well guys and gals, I'm sorry to have to tell you that
the=0A> ZBAGers have screwed my pooch for the time being. My=0A> airworthin
ess inspection was scheduled for 2PM this=0A> afternoon.- At the urging o
f the NTSB, the FAA has=0A> decided not to issue any more airworthiness cer
tificates on=0A> 601XLs until this mess is sorted out. Realistic estimates
of=0A> delay would range from a couple of months to never. I cannot=0A> exp
ress how angry and frustrated I am at having busybody=0A> types save me fro
m their imaginary demon against my will. My=0A> inspector called this morni
ng with the news that his=0A> superiors told him to call off the inspection
indefinitely.=0A> I know that I will be accused of sticking my head in the
=0A> sand, but my counter-accusation is that some who have their=0A> heads
stuck up their butts are sticking their noses in my=0A> business. (How's th
at for a mixed metaphor?) =0A>- =0A> Now here is the insanity of the situ
ation... if the=0A> inspection had been done yesterday or the day before, m
y=0A> plane would be legal to fly. That same plane today is in=0A> some bea
urocratic limbo that may prohibit its flight for=0A> many months. Go ahead
and try to convince me that this would=0A> have happened anyway if the ZBAG
ers had simply minded their=0A> own business. I truly don't mind that their
instincts move=0A> them to investigate and explore options and mods on the
ir=0A> own planes... that is well within their rights. What I=0A> object to
is the fact that while they carry on this pissing=0A> contest, all our sho
es are getting wet. I know, I know... I=0A> am being saved from certain dea
th in this tradgically flawed=0A> airframe... got all that. Thanks just the
same, I'm not that=0A> impressed. Or grateful for that matter. =0A>- =0A
> Sorry for the rant but I am a responsible, self reliant=0A> sort of perso
n who =0A> resents being nannied to death. =0A>- =0A> Ed Moody II =0A> N4
568G =0A> 601XL / Jabiru 3300 (very expensive go-cart right now) =0A> =0A>
Email Forum -=0A> FAQ,=0A> ---- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -=0A> List Contr
ibution Web Site -=0A> - - - - - - - -Matt=0A> Dralle, List A
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List
========0A=0A=0A
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron mass balance |
Here is the first response from an engineer: Springs don't provide damping.
Quite the opposite. Damping is provided by elements or devices that absorb
energy, converting it to heat. Shock absorbers are also known as dampers.
The oil in an air-oil landing gear strut is forced thru an orifice to
provide damping. Friction dampers were used on old-time race cars and some
autogiro and helicopter rotor heads. Even the atmosphere will provide some
damping, which is why sensitivity to flutter varies with density altitude.
A spring will store energy and then give virtually all of it back, sometimes
when you least desire it.
George
---- Original Message -----
From: "hansriet" <hansinla@mac.com>
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 3:49 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron mass balance
>
> The thought is not totally crazy though.
> I can imagine that springs attached to the bellcrank can have a damping
> effect on any oscillations of the ailerons. The engineers on this list can
> now jump on me and tell me why that would not work.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239778#239778
>
>
>
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
Time to invoke the nazi rule:
"The nazi rule is simple. In any debate, argument, or other two or more
sided discussion, the party(and all others with an associated opinion) that
first brings up Nazis is instantly the loser of said discussion, argument,
whatever. This is a simple principle that applies to all people in all
places."
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nazi%20rule
Silly season has broken out one again on the Zenith list, further diluting
the value of the list. Sigh.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of hansriet
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 4:58 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ZBAGers to the rescue
And that has exactly nothing to do with socialism.
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239780#239780
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
"National Socialism" was to socialism as "Peoples Democracy" is to
democracy. Not even close in either case
George
Do not archive!
----- Original Message -----
From: "steve" <notsew_evets@frontiernet.net>
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: ZBAGers to the rescue
>
> National/Socialism.....= NAZI
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "hansriet" <hansinla@mac.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 3:46 PM
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: ZBAGers to the rescue
>
>
>>
>> Nazi Germany equals socialism?
>> Man, I'm so happy to be part of this list, I learn so much every day.
>>
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239777#239777
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron mass balance |
Dave,
If you balance with weights at the inboard end of the cable you are setting
up for a resonant coupling, which will increase vibrations not damp them.
As someone posted earlier, the correct solution is lever weights attached at
mid span of each aileron, like the Avid flyer AD required. I was visiting a fiend
with a MK4 Avid yesterday, sorry i didnt take a photo for you all, it had
a 4" wide plate rivited across the underside of the aileron, spar to trailing
edge, with a 3/4" tube welded on at an angle such that it faces forward approx.
level, and 5" of lead tube attached over the end. This end was cut at a 45
degree face so it would tilt downwards in an airstream. Dimensions only approximate.
Such an attachment should be made to meet the rules:
The design rules applying to European 601XL is CAP482 British Civil Airworthiness
Requirements section S - small light airplanes, section D, design and construction,
S 6569
"Mass balance
The supporting structure and the attachment of concentrated mass balance weights
used on control surfaces must be designed for:
a) 24 g normal to the plane of the control surface;
b) 12 g fore and aft; and
c) 12 g parallel to the hinge line"
I'd wait for ZAC to supply the fix, they already have for Europe models although
I would have thought the Europe models already had been flight tested to induce
flutter as required under BCAR-S and DS 10141e
Ralph
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239792#239792
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron mass balance |
Thanks for the explanation George. Does the principle of trying to dampen the excitation
make any sense though? Or is that not at all a way to avoid a resonance
in the system. Or am I totally off and is flutter something completely different?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239793#239793
Message 51
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| Subject: | Ailerons mass balance |
Steve (_notsew_evets@frontier.net_ (mailto:notsew_evets@frontier.net) )
writes....
The control surface must be balanced not the linkage.....
I think I read you post correctly..
d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico writes.....
If you are concerned about putting mass balances on the aileron itself,
then place them in the wing with a linkage to the aileron. As long as the
y
counteract and balance the control surface, location is of little
consequence. Piper uses this arrangement.
???
**************Join ChristianMingle.com=AE FREE! Meet Christian Singles in
your area. Start now!
=http://www.christianmingle.com/campaign.html?cat=adbuy&src=pl
atforma&adid=aolfooter&newurl=reg_path.html)
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
The guy behind ZBAG wrote me a 3 page e-mail calling me and comparing me to STALIN.
When I forwarded it to my parents they were not too pleased. This new
stuff is going to get to my parents and I may have to leave the list... please
EDIT your comments, PLEASE...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239799#239799
Message 53
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
Good heavens, Sabrina.
Please publish that message to the list so that every one will know the
full context and the exact words.
Thank you.
Terry
At 04:45 PM 4/17/2009 -0700, you wrote:
>The guy behind ZBAG wrote me a 3 page e-mail calling me and comparing me
>to STALIN. When I forwarded it to my parents they were not too
>pleased. This new stuff is going to get to my parents and I may have to
>leave the list... please EDIT your comments, PLEASE...
Terry Phillips ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; waiting on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 4:45 PM, Sabrina <chicago2paris@msn.com> wrote:
> The guy behind ZBAG wrote me a 3 page e-mail calling me and comparing
> me to STALIN. When I forwarded it to my parents they were not too pleased.
Parents aside, I think that (a) you should feel free to identify this
person to the list by name; but also (b) should you choose to forward
the email, please make sure all the mail headers, showing the route
the message took, are preserved. It is very easy to spoof a "From:"
address. It's not as easy to spoof a chain of mail transfer agents.
Ihab
--
Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA
Message 55
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Sabrina,
On a lighter note: Do you know anyone at Lumanair? I worked there for
13 years. I was also president of a RC club about
1.5 miles from your school. I don't know if the field is still there.
Ken Lilja
Message 56
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
Ihab
I am the author of the offending message. I'll stand by it. It was sent and
intended as a private message; oh well, privacy is not what it's cracked up
to be.
None-the-less, I encourage Sabrina to post my message to the list. I wish
that I could post it in context, but I cannot, because the message to which
I was responding was deleted from the Matronics archives.
You have my express permission to post the message, Sabrina. I encourage
you to also post your own message, as well. Then everyone can decide for
themselves just how big SOB I am. Thank you.
Terry
At 05:28 PM 4/17/2009 -0700, you wrote:
>On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 4:45 PM, Sabrina <chicago2paris@msn.com> wrote:
> > The guy behind ZBAG wrote me a 3 page e-mail calling me and comparing
> > me to STALIN. When I forwarded it to my parents they were not too pleased.
>
>Parents aside, I think that (a) you should feel free to identify this
>person to the list by name; but also (b) should you choose to forward
>the email, please make sure all the mail headers, showing the route
>the message took, are preserved. It is very easy to spoof a "From:"
>address. It's not as easy to spoof a chain of mail transfer agents.
>
>Ihab
Terry Phillips ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; waiting on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 57
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
Okay everybody, the guy you want is TERRY Phillips not me, Bill Phillips.
I'm a good guy, I'll let almost anybody fly my XL and never send messages
to the Government. And there is always an adult beverage cold and availab
le
in my hanger for lubrication of after flight story telling. That awful
Terry is the guy your looking for. Remember that, Bless all who read this,
Bill
of Georgia
In a message dated 4/17/2009 8:59:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
ttp44@rkymtn.net writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Terry Phillips <ttp44@rkymtn.net>
Ihab
I am the author of the offending message. I'll stand by it. It was sent
and
intended as a private message; oh well, privacy is not what it's cracked
up
to be.
None-the-less, I encourage Sabrina to post my message to the list. I wish
that I could post it in context, but I cannot, because the message to
which
I was responding was deleted from the Matronics archives.
You have my express permission to post the message, Sabrina. I encourage
you to also post your own message, as well. Then everyone can decide for
themselves just how big SOB I am. Thank you.
Terry
At 05:28 PM 4/17/2009 -0700, you wrote:
>On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 4:45 PM, Sabrina <chicago2paris@msn.com> wrote:
> > The guy behind ZBAG wrote me a 3 page e-mail calling me and comparing
> > me to STALIN. When I forwarded it to my parents they were not too
pleased.
>
>Parents aside, I think that (a) you should feel free to identify this
>person to the list by name; but also (b) should you choose to forward
>the email, please make sure all the mail headers, showing the route
>the message took, are preserved. It is very easy to spoof a "From:"
>address. It's not as easy to spoof a chain of mail transfer agents.
>
>Ihab
Terry Phillips ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; waiting on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
**************Join ChristianMingle.com=AE FREE! Meet Christian Singles in
your area. Start now!
=http://www.christianmingle.com/campaign.html?cat=adbuy&src=pl
atforma&adid=aolfooter&newurl=reg_path.html)
Message 58
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| Subject: | cable tension 601 hds ? |
Howdy all;
I have my annual inspection on Saturday, and for the life of me I can't find
the 601 HDS cable tension specs. Does anyone know what the elevator and
rudder cables should be tension to on a 601 hds?
Thanks
Roger
Message 59
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG to the Rescue...... |
That's it folks. I'm pulling the plug on this jerk website. I'm so very sorry
Sabrina these "MEN" can't control themselves more than they do - they could if
they really set their minds to or want to but they don't because they HIDE behind
a damned computer, spitting nothing but bile from their lips. Once again,
this list proves itself to be unworthy and not worth the electric that runs
my computer. I'm out of here.
Sabrina, if you ever need anything, please feel free to contact me using my email.
:)
Bye guys
Larry Hursh
skyridersbn@yahoo.com
Edwardsburg, Michigan
Zenith CH650 (N650LM Reserved)
I hope someday I can be the person my dog thinks I am.....
Message 60
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 06:57:59PM -0600, Terry Phillips wrote:
> None-the-less, I encourage Sabrina to post my message to the list. I wish
> that I could post it in context, but I cannot, because the message to which
> I was responding was deleted from the Matronics archives.
Terry, I just looked through the archives, and I believe the message to
which you were responding was addressed to me originally, am I correct? I
have all of the messages on this subject that have passed through the
Matronics Zenith-List and Zenith601-list lists, and the ZBAG list on Yahoo!,
stored on my system.
I was not offended by her message. I read it as a concern for my safety
while flying, and I'll always accept that kind of concern in the spirit in
which it was offered.
There are a few folks on here who will never be convinced that ZBAG's
actions - all of them - were appropriate. The rest of the folks on this list
are at least open to discussion. Please, let's not go hard over the other
way among the ZBAGers.
(I can hear it now: "After the way he's flamed the past day or two, he's the
voice of reason?!" Yeah, I know. Quit snickering, all of you.)
The Nazi rule was cited on here a little while ago, but the same principle
applies to comparisons to Stalin. We can do better.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 61
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
Jay
I never once mentioned Stalin on this list, or NAZI's for that matter.
Someone accused me on this list of comparing them to Stalin. I don't think
I did that, however, I'm happy to let her post the offending message and
let everyone judge for themselves whether I was out of line in a private
message. The last thing I intended was to offend the person involved. If
she was offended, then I'm happy to apologize. However, I am not the one
who posted something out of context. If my message was inappropriate, then
I am willing to accept everyone's censure. Have at it. But censure me based
on what I wrote, not on one word out of context. I was trying to make a
point, and used the only analogy that came to my mind. It made sense to me
at the time and several months later it still does.
I do not recall to whom the original message was intended or even the
subject. While the original message provides the complete context, my
message was actually in response to something else. Since Sabrina's
accusation was on the list, I would very appreciate Sabrina posting the
offending message to the list so that one and all can judge for themselves.
Is that too much to ask?
This matter has absolutely nothing to do with ZBAG. I will post
nothing more on this subject. But if anyone out there has an open mind (or
not) on this subject, please contact me off line and I will be happy to
forward my message to you, and you can judge the entire message for yourself.
Terry
At 08:41 PM 4/17/2009 -0500, you wrote:
>Terry, I just looked through the archives, and I believe the message to
>which you were responding was addressed to me originally, am I correct? I
>have all of the messages on this subject that have passed through the
>Matronics Zenith-List and Zenith601-list lists, and the ZBAG list on Yahoo!,
>stored on my system.
>
>I was not offended by her message. I read it as a concern for my safety
>while flying, and I'll always accept that kind of concern in the spirit in
>which it was offered.
>
>There are a few folks on here who will never be convinced that ZBAG's
>actions - all of them - were appropriate. The rest of the folks on this list
>are at least open to discussion. Please, let's not go hard over the other
>way among the ZBAGers.
>
>(I can hear it now: "After the way he's flamed the past day or two, he's the
>voice of reason?!" Yeah, I know. Quit snickering, all of you.)
>
>The Nazi rule was cited on here a little while ago, but the same principle
>applies to comparisons to Stalin. We can do better
Terry Phillips ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; waiting on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 62
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAGers to the rescue |
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 7:32 PM, Terry Phillips <ttp44@rkymtn.net> wrote:
> It made sense to me at the time and several months later it still does.
Ok, so this was written several months ago and only discussed now?
In that case, Sabrina: why did you bring it up right now? Does it
pertain to the discussion at hand? Clearly this is a rather tense time
for the group and its participants. If you did not seek recourse back
then, why are you choosing to do so right now?
Ihab
--
Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA
Message 63
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| Subject: | Re: cable tension 601 hds ? |
Hi Roger,
I keep my rudder, elevator and aileron cables tensioned between 20 and
25 lbs, well below 40 lbs. I believe the higher number just
tends to bend metal over the long run.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Roger & Lina Hill wrote:
>
>
> Howdy all;
>
> I have my annual inspection on Saturday, and for the life of me I can't find
> the 601 HDS cable tension specs. Does anyone know what the elevator and
> rudder cables should be tension to on a 601 hds?
>
> Thanks
>
> Roger
>
>
>
Message 64
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron mass balance |
The initial excitation comes from something like a gust, vibration from the
engine or prop, abrupt deflection of the controls, stuff like that. I'm not
sure such inputs can be damped. In fact, in flutter testing, one technique
is to bump or "pulse" the stick to try to excite the control surface
concerned.
Flutter is a form of harmonic motion. Think of a weight hanging on a
spring, or a of pendulum, or a kid on a playground swing.. All these
systems have what is called a "natural frequency". Once displaced from
their resting position they will make a certain number of oscillations in
each given interval of time. Kinetic energy (the push on the swing) is put
in and converted to potential energy (in the form of gravity or spring
tension in the above examples). Then the energy is returned. In a
frictionless world the motion, once excited, would continue forever. The
amplitude of the motion and the "period" or time to return to the initial
position would be constant. Moreover, if additional energy is put in at the
right point in the cycle, the amplitude will increase. Think of "pumping" a
swing to make it go higher.
For a moving control surface, energy is stored by deflection of the
supporting structure: in the case of an aileron, by the twisting and
bending of the wing, like storing energy in a giant spring. A certain
amount of damping comes from friction within the structure and a certain
amount from the friction of the airstream, but at some value of airspeed the
energy input from the airstream exceeds the energy dissipated by damping and
the amplitude of the motion increases with each cycle. Soon the deflection
of the supporting structure exceeds the amount of deformation the structure
can resist. This can happen in a fraction of a second, leaving no
opportunity to recognize the danger and take corrective action.
It isn't practical to make control surfaces absolutely flutter-free, so the
practical solution is to somehow raise the natural frequency of the system
beyond the point where it will be reached before the airplane's limits are
reached or exceeded. Mass balancing the surface is one way to do this.
Increasing the stiffness of the wing by going to heavier gage material or by
increasing the depth of the structure would be another. Wing torsional
stiffness is reduced by the presence of large cutouts, like wheel wells or
access openings not adequately reinforced.
Control cables store energy as they are stretched. Their natural frequency
increases with tension, like the strings on a musical instrument, so proper
tensioning becomes important.
I recognize that my college courses in vibration and flutter are some 50
years behind me. My professional work was in aircraft structural design and
airplane configuration, rather than in flutter and vibration. I welcome
corrections from anyone who has worked in that field. Also, note that I am
not claiming that flutter is the cause of the 601XL crashes that we are all
concerned about, or that mass-balancing the ailerons will be the solution.
George
----- Original Message -----
From: "hansriet" <hansinla@mac.com>
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 4:26 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Aileron mass balance
>
> Thanks for the explanation George. Does the principle of trying to dampen
> the excitation make any sense though? Or is that not at all a way to avoid
> a resonance in the system. Or am I totally off and is flutter something
> completely different?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239793#239793
>
>
>
Message 65
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| Subject: | Re: cable tension 601 hds ? |
Hi Larry,
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 8:12 PM, LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com> wrote:
> ... well below 40 lbs. I believe the higher number just tends to bend metal over
> the long run.
I'm going to jump on this statement for a minute ;) so please bear with me.
You have written about this previously, regarding the fact that one
can "read" the rivet line of the rib on the skin at high cable
tensions. Are you saying that, in your experience, the following
happens:
A1. You set the cable tension at 40lbs.
A2. You go flying the friendly skies.
A3. You come back and measure your cable tension. The tension is now
less, and you observe that something along the line of the cable runs,
somewhere, has bent -- acquired a permanent set, of sorts -- such that
the cable has slackened.
However:
B1. You set the cable tension at 25lbs.
B2. You go flying the friendly skies.
B3. You come back and measure your cable tension. The tension is still
pretty much 25lbs.
?
Cheers,
Ihab
--
Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA
Message 66
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| Subject: | cable tension 601 hds ? |
Ok thanks Larry !!!!
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LarryMcFarland
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: cable tension 601 hds ?
Hi Roger,
I keep my rudder, elevator and aileron cables tensioned between 20 and
25 lbs, well below 40 lbs. I believe the higher number just
tends to bend metal over the long run.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Roger & Lina Hill wrote:
<hills@sunflower.com>
>
>
> Howdy all;
>
> I have my annual inspection on Saturday, and for the life of me I can't
find
> the 601 HDS cable tension specs. Does anyone know what the elevator and
> rudder cables should be tension to on a 601 hds?
>
> Thanks
>
> Roger
>
>
>
Message 67
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| Subject: | Attention all Rednecks |
Yep, you know who you are (Moody, Giacona et al.). You're the ones who are convinced
that a group of fellow builders has ruined your life just because we have
legitimate questions about the viability of the many thousands we (like you)
have invested.
I have a few questions for you. Why do you think your right to pursue your hobby
is somehow more important than our pursuit of our own safety? How arrogant
are you? Do you seriously think that the NTSB would capriciously make these
recommendations without even running the numbers themselves? Are you that
naive?
The NTSB letter was signed by Mark Rosenker, acting chair of the NTSB. In addition
to other service to his country, he spent 37 1/2 years in the Air Force
and is a retired Major General. Do you think someone like him is easily duped?
The e-mail I received about the initial release originated from the Chief Scientist
of the Office of Aviation Safety at the NTSB. Imagine that, they may well
have used SCIENCE to reach their conclusions instead of Emotion like you.
Why dont you grow up and direct your anger where it should be directed, to the
hubris of Chris Heintz and his brood. They could easily have released a balanced
aileron option, but are too caught up trying to protect their asses and pride.
Follow the links in the recent post about the Modesto Bee article and take a look
at the photos of the victims. These are real people. The supporters of
ZBAG are simply trying to make sure no more articles like that are written.
We know you are all very frustrated by this, so why dont you just take your most
recently purchased assault rifle out back into the woods and fire off a few
clips. Youll feel better, but certainly will be no smarter.
Doug Sire
CH650
Billings, MT
ZBAGer
--------
Doug Sire 601XL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239843#239843
Message 68
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| Subject: | Re: Attention all Rednecks |
I'm sure your fellow ZBAGers are proud.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239846#239846
Message 69
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| Subject: | Attention all Rednecks |
There is more than enough frustration to go around. This kind of disrespec
t=2C whether in support or opposition to ZBAG=2C helps no one. There are g
rains of truth in the arguments both for and against what ZBAG did and a lo
t of unsupportable conjecture about near-clandestine contacts between ZBAG
and NTSB. What I think has happened is that ZBAG has presented sufficient
evidence to say that flutter cannot be excluded as a cause. NTSB has a du
ty to attempt to intervene to prevent a cause of an accinet from bering rep
eated needlessly. What this means is that of there is a small but meaning
ful likelihood that flutter was the cause=2C tthen NTSB is likely to recomm
end interventions to prenvet flutter.
Further=2C some very self-reliant people have worked very hard on teir airc
raft and have a tremendous frustration at the recent events. I would offer
that supporting each other through adversity is a more promising direction
though.
There are risks in the NTSB recommendation. One risk is that there were no
flutter issues that caused crashes=2C but that addressing flutter distract
s from some other common cause. Another risk is that there may not be a co
mmon cause=2C but that an entire fleet was grounded needlessly. My guess i
s tha NTSB feels comfortable in assuming the second risk=2C but not the fir
st. On the ohter hand=2C if flutter is the commmon cause then NTSB may hav
e saved many lives.
I wish all well in their building and flying activities=2C and again urge r
etraint=2C especially in the personal attacks. I doubt that anyone on this
list percieves himself or herself as some kind of spamming villain bent on
the destruction of the good name os Zenith aricraft. An inflamatory and p
ejorative=2C perhaps even racist term=2C like redneeck=2C seems not related
to building an airplane=2C nor to flying one. Other pejorative terms refer
ring to dictatorial regimes seem equally misplaced. I suggest a new rule f
or posters. If you wouldn't want your parents or children to read what yo
u posted=2C please don't post it.
Frank Roskind
A&P=2C Attorney at Law=2C PPSEL=2C potential Zenith customer (not dissuade
d by recent events)
do not archive
> Subject: Zenith-List: Attention all Rednecks
> From: dsire@imt.net
> Date: Fri=2C 17 Apr 2009 20:59:45 -0700
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Yep=2C you know who you are (Moody=2C Giacona et al.). You're the ones
who are convinced that a group of fellow builders has ruined your life just
because we have legitimate questions about the viability of the many thous
ands we (like you) have invested.
>
> I have a few questions for you. Why do you think your right to pursue y
our hobby is somehow more important than our pursuit of our own safety? H
ow arrogant are you? Do you seriously think that the NTSB would capriciou
sly make these recommendations without even running the numbers themselves?
Are you that naive?
>
> The NTSB letter was signed by Mark Rosenker=2C acting chair of the NTSB.
In addition to other service to his country=2C he spent 37 1/2 years in t
he Air Force and is a retired Major General. Do you think someone like hi
m is easily duped?
>
> The e-mail I received about the initial release originated from the Chief
Scientist of the Office of Aviation Safety at the NTSB. Imagine that=2C
they may well have used SCIENCE to reach their conclusions instead of Emoti
on like you.
>
> Why don=99t you grow up and direct your anger where it should be di
rected=2C to the hubris of Chris Heintz and his brood. They could easily
have released a balanced aileron option=2C but are too caught up trying to
protect their asses and pride.
>
> Follow the links in the recent post about the Modesto Bee article and tak
e a look at the photos of the victims. These are real people. The suppo
rters of ZBAG are simply trying to make sure no more articles like that are
written.
>
> We know you are all very frustrated by this=2C so why don=99t you j
ust take your most recently purchased assault rifle out back into the woods
and fire off a few clips. You=99ll feel better=2C but certainly wi
ll be no smarter.
>
> Doug Sire
> CH650
> Billings=2C MT
> ZBAGer
>
> --------
> Doug Sire 601XL
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239843#239843
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Rediscover Hotmail=AE: Get e-mail storage that grows with you.
http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_
Storage2_042009
Message 70
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| Subject: | Attention all Rednecks |
Doug
You could have given the people on this list a heads up on the contents of your
finding at the same time you sent your finding to the NTSB. This would have
been the honorable way to have handled this mater. What is gained by the distrust
you have created between yourselves at ZBAG and the Zenith community on the
list. This just my opinion but things done in secret always comes back to haunt.
Floyd Gantt
Building CH 650
----------------------------------------
From: "dougsire" <dsire@imt.net>
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:09 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Attention all Rednecks
Yep, you know who you are (Moody, Giacona et al.). You're the ones who are convinced
that a group of fellow builders has ruined your life just because we have
legitimate questions about the viability of the many thousands we (like you)
have invested.
I have a few questions for you. Why do you think your right to pursue your hobby
is somehow more important than our pursuit of our own safety? How arrogant
are you? Do you seriously think that the NTSB would capriciously make these
recommendations without even running the numbers themselves? Are you that
naive?
The NTSB letter was signed by Mark Rosenker, acting chair of the NTSB. In addition
to other service to his country, he spent 37 1/2 years in the Air Force
and is a retired Major General. Do you think someone like him is easily duped?
The e-mail I received about the initial release originated from the Chief Scientist
of the Office of Aviation Safety at the NTSB. Imagine that, they may well
have used SCIENCE to reach their conclusions instead of Emotion like you.
Why dont you grow up and direct your anger where it should be directed, to the
hubris of Chris Heintz and his brood. They could easily have released a balanced
aileron option, but are too caught up trying to protect their asses and pride.
Follow the links in the recent post about the Modesto Bee article and take a look
at the photos of the victims. These are real people. The supporters of
ZBAG are simply trying to make sure no more articles like that are written.
We know you are all very frustrated by this, so why dont you just take your most
recently purchased assault rifle out back into the woods and fire off a few
clips. Youll feel better, but certainly will be no smarter.
Doug Sire
CH650
Billings, MT
ZBAGer
--------
Doug Sire 601XL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239843#239843
Message 71
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| Subject: | Attention all Rednecks |
What a sad, useless and defensive post. This attempt to equate ones political leanings
with their position on the NTSB letter is absurd. I would place myself
somewhat left of "liberal" and I have many problems with the logic of the NTSB's
reasoning. As other have pointed out the NTSB's conclusion contradicted their
own accident reports. History shows that credentialed organizations (public
or private) are perfectly capable of reaching wrong conclusions and being victims
of group-think. If we are talking "science" here then ZBAG should publish
their data.
-- Craig Payne
Yes, please archive
Message 72
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| Subject: | Re: Attention all Rednecks |
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 08:59:45PM -0700, dougsire wrote:
> We know you are all very frustrated by this, so why don???t you just take
> your most recently purchased assault rifle out back into the woods and
> fire off a few clips. You???ll feel better, but certainly will be no
> smarter.
Careful, Doug. If it hadn't been geting dark when I calmed down enough to
see straight Wednesday, after I was told I wasn't getting my checkride, I'd
have gone out to the range and run a couple hundred rounds through my
eeeeevil black AR-15.
By a lot of folks' measures, I'm a redneck, too, even though I support the
work of ZBAG, both publicly and financially.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 73
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| Subject: | Re: Attention all Rednecks |
On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 12:47:04AM -0400, Frank Roskind wrote:
> What I think has happened is that ZBAG has presented sufficient evidence
> to say that flutter cannot be excluded as a cause.
This is all I've ever contended. Unless and until flutter can be ruled out
as a cause, we must consider it seriously. That's all, but it's enough.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
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