Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:36 AM - Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to... (Dave)
2. 06:50 AM - Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to the NTSB. (Frank Roskind)
3. 08:42 AM - Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to the NTSB. (Juan Vega)
4. 09:04 AM - Re: Lets all get a grip here........ (purplemoon99@bellsouth.net)
5. 09:26 AM - Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to the NTSB. (Juan Vega)
6. 09:32 AM - Re: Lets all get a grip here........ (Gary Gower)
7. 09:42 AM - Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to the NTSB. (Jay Maynard)
8. 09:49 AM - Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to... (Jay Maynard)
9. 09:49 AM - Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to the NTSB. (Jay Maynard)
10. 10:04 AM - Re: Lets all get a grip here........ (Jay Maynard)
11. 12:28 PM - Re: Lets all get a grip here........ (steve)
12. 01:16 PM - Re: Lets all get a grip here........ (Frank Roskind)
13. 02:22 PM - Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to the NTSB. (Juan Vega)
14. 02:29 PM - Re: Lets all get a grip here........ (jaybannist@cs.com)
15. 03:12 PM - Re: Lets all get a grip here........ (George Swinford)
16. 03:44 PM - Re: Lets all get a grip here........ (Roger & Lina Hill)
17. 04:21 PM - Re: Lets all get a grip here........ (steve)
18. 04:24 PM - Re: Lets all get a grip here........ (George Swinford)
19. 04:37 PM - Re: Lets all get a grip here........ (Craig Payne)
20. 04:38 PM - Re: Lets all get a grip here........ (Dave)
21. 04:59 PM - Re: Lets all get a grip here........ (Greg Cox, Gas-n-Go Automotive Pty Ltd)
22. 05:24 PM - Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to the NTSB. (Paul Mulwitz)
23. 05:25 PM - Re: Lets all get a grip here........ (steve)
24. 05:42 PM - Apology needed here (lwhitlow)
25. 06:04 PM - Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to the NTSB. (Ronald Steele)
26. 06:29 PM - Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to the NTSB. (ihab.awad@gmail.com)
27. 07:20 PM - Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to the NTSB. (Paul Mulwitz)
28. 07:33 PM - Re: Lets all get a grip here........ (Roger & Lina Hill)
29. 08:03 PM - Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to the NTSB. (ihab.awad@gmail.com)
30. 08:43 PM - Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to the NTSB. (Ronald Steele)
31. 08:59 PM - Different Strokes for Different Folks. (Paul Mulwitz)
32. 09:06 PM - Re: Lets all get a grip here........ (Gary Gower)
33. 09:37 PM - Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to... (JohnDRead@aol.com)
34. 09:37 PM - Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to the NTSB. (Gary Gower)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions |
to...
I think they like Zenith aircraft well enough, they all own one. They
are simply trying to determine why incidents of in flight structural
failures appear occurring at an unusual rate on XL aircraft. So far I
don't think they have found anything. I applaud their efforts in
general, in looks like this airframe is getting a lot of attention over
it, if it comes back that nothing has been found and no changes are
required it seems to me that a person can have a fair amount of
confidence about this aircraft. If it comes out that a design change is
required then it's good to know that also. In terms of safety,
interfering busybodies are a irritant and a nuisance no question. If it
keeps you or your family from injury, maybe being irritated and bothered
is not too high a price.
----- Original Message -----
From: JohnDRead@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 2:08 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz
clan reactions to...
Sounds to me as if they are a bunch of interfering busybodies with an
axe to grind about Zenith airplanes. do not archive.
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 4/21/2009 10:35:17 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
craig@craigandjean.com writes:
Zenith Builders Analysis Group. They spun off their own group a
while ago to do an independent engineering analysis of the XL and the
crashes. They agreed to keep their conclusions confidential within the
group but also (apparently) pass data on to government bodies.
Membership is open to anyone (I think) who (a) has an official set of XL
plans from Zenith, (b) agrees to follow the confidentiality rules and
(c) contribute to pay for outside consultants. They had an (unnamed)
retired engineer do some analysis on the XL. Some of their members has
publicly stated that flutter was the cause of all of the unexplained XL
accidents. This is all from my memory. As there are plenty of ZBAG
members on this list (and one ex-member I believe) they can correct
anything I have remembered wrong.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions |
to the NTSB.
The NTSB is not a higher level government authority than the FAA=2C except
when reviewing certificate actions. The NTSB is an independent government
agency and you can read about them at www.ntsb.gov . The FAA is part of t
he Department of Transportation=2C and answers to the Secretary of Transpor
tation=2C who in turn answers to the President=2C usually through the Chief
of Staff. The FAA is a little more independent within DOT than the other
modal agencies=2C such as NHTSA=2C FRA=2C FHWA=2C FMCSA=2C FTA=2C RITA and
PHMSA=2C but is not as independent as the STB. NTSB has aawesome resources
and analytical capabilities=2C but I know of NTSB recommendations which wo
uld adversely affect safety as a whole. The DOT agencies are responsible f
or weighing those kinds of risks. For example=2C FAA did not require use o
f childrens' safety seats on aircraft=2C because it estimated that mroe tri
ps by highway would result from such a rule=2C leading to more fatalities o
n the highways than would be saved in airliner accidents. NTSB is good=2C
but is is only a key part of hte safety team=2C not the whole team.
do not archive
> world. The NTSB is not an engineering agency -- they are a higher
> level government authority than the FAA.
_________________________________________________________________
Rediscover Hotmail=AE: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry
http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_
Mobile2_042009
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions |
to the NTSB.
Paul,
you need to sell your plane and move on. Dude, the emails you are spitting out
are just plain... I am searching for the word, crazy? self absorbed?.
NTSB end all be all? you have the answer and only you?
Happy Kido?
I need to get some popcorn, cuase this email stream is making for awesome entertainent!
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
>Sent: Apr 21, 2009 10:58 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions
to the NTSB.
>
>
>Hi guys,
>
>Please let me respond to several of your comments in one message:
>
>Randy: I agree with you that the controls should be nice and
>sensitive. The design flaw the NTSB identified is that as you pull
>more Gs it gets easier to increase the load. I like the stick to be
>sensitive in normal flight too, but it shouldn't get easier to load
>the airframe more as the Gs increase. This is the kind of thing that
>would never make it through a part 23 qualification.
>
>Art: I am quite calm now, and I really do think I am making things
>better rather than worse. I admit, though, that the only answer from
>Matthew that I can find acceptable is that he will issue the design
>changes. I don't see any other way my plane can be ungrounded. The
>frustrating part for me (today) is that I have no clue how long it
>will be before this takes place even though I am quite sure it will
>eventually happen.
>
>Roger, I agree with you completely. Matthew is worried about
>admitting liability for the design flaw. He knows a law suit is a
>waste of time because he is judgement proof. Still, I told him he
>can issue the necessary changes without admitting anything except
>that the changes were well analyzed for fitting in with the remaining
>parts of the plane. He can blame the NTSB for deciding the changes
>were needed.
>
>I personally feel the NTSB demand must be met - simply because they
>demanded it. I don't think they have proved anything, and I don't
>think they have to prove anything. Matthew thinks his judgement
>about the cause of the crashes is more important than the NTSB
>ruling. From my point of view that is the real problem that keeps my
>plane on the ground.
>
>So far, I have no reason to be upset with any of the comments I have
>received. The simple fact that I am unhappy about the Heintz
>children's approach to this problem is my problem not any body
>else's. If only Chris hadn't retired I believe we would have already
>reached a reasonable solution to this mess.
>
>Paul
>XL grounded
>do not archive
>
>
>At 07:08 PM 4/21/2009, you wrote:
>>Paul, I couldn't disagree with you more. I happen to love the
>>sensitive control inputs and I hope the Heintz boys don't change
>>it. Learn to fly the plane properly and you will love it also.
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Lets all get a grip here........ |
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| Subject: | Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions |
to the NTSB.
Paul,
thats the most narcissistic email I have read. I think you need to chill or take
your meds. amazing.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
>Sent: Apr 21, 2009 9:40 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions
to the NTSB.
>
>
>Warning. I was very emotional in my dealings with the Heintz
>brothers, Sebastian and especially Matthew. That means this report
>might be all a bunch of imagined issues and nonsense based on my
>heated condition.
>
>First let me report the good news. I didn't kill either one of the
>boys - I didn't even hit either of them. (I apologize if those seem
>like redundant statements, but if I did hit one of them the blow
>would probably be fatal thanks to my years studying Hap Ki Do.)
>
>Second let me report the background. At 12:00 Matthew started
>talking in tent 11 about the situation with the Zodiac XL. Sebastian
>was also there and had a few comments, but it was mostly
>Matthew. After the meeting I walked back to the Zenith display
>(which, oddly enough, didn't include an XL) with both boys and tried
>to hammer my simple point home. In the end, I think it was all
>wasted breath on my part, but I am not sure. Perhaps in time they
>will come around and do the simple things I demanded.
>
>Now for the good stuff. (Remember, this is my heated memory of an
>even more heated discussion. So take it with a grain of salt.) It
>seems like Matthew is the guy in charge of handling this
>situation. He explained he is now running Zenair where all of the
>development is done while Sebastian is handling ZAC which merely
>produces kits. Matthew doesn't think the NTSB has any standing in
>this mess. He said they didn't have any proof to convince him that
>their decision was the right one at least 5 times in the tent
>session. He has hired a couple of engineering firms to do some
>studies of the design and he gives them complete credence while
>considering the NTSB mostly worthless. The good news is he thinks
>the highly paid engineers will be finished with their work and submit
>their findings within 2 weeks. He said he will base his further
>actions on those findings.
>
>My position was that the NTSB ruling was authoritative and needed to
>be respected. Since the NTSB screamed we need aileron mass balancing
>we need aileron mass balancing. I feel even more strongly that we
>need an engineering change for the stick sensitivity problem
>identified in the NTSB report. It seems to me this problem makes it
>more likely that a panicked pilot will pull the wings off since it
>gets progressively easier to do as the load increases. I told him
>and several of the FAA folks that I can't imagine any reason why this
>problem should not be corrected.
>
>My point about the changes is that only the Heintz clan and their
>companies can issue an authoritative engineering change. Only their
>companies (and their father) have the expertise and knowledge of the
>design history to make a reasonable determination that the new
>changes won't cause unexpected problems in the remainder of the
>design. I also said he didn't need to keep covering his rear end
>regarding the question of the real need for these changes. The NTSB
>has already taken the heat for demanding these changes for the whole
>fleet, while Matthew made it clear his whole effort will only
>consider the current drawings and not all the changes and variations
>the home builders have introduced. Matthew can release the changes
>with a caveat that he doesn't think they will help but at least they
>won't hurt anything. This is the normal way Zenith approves of
>design changes submitted for review by builders.
>
>My general impression is that it will take a long time for Matthew
>the come around and issue the needed design changes. I expect my
>plane to be grounded (by me) for a long time. The central issue is
>Matthew's decision process, and he doesn't seem to see it my way. I
>will continue to apply as much pressure on him as I can, even thought
>I think it is wasted effort. I simply have no reasonable alternative.
>
>Paul
>XL grounded
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Lets all get a grip here........ |
Hello Larry,
-
Congratulations!-- Poeple thinking like you, are the only ones that can
preserve freedom of flying (Worldwide).-- Self responsible people, is
what is needed.--
All the others will get in the next future,-the little freedom that the l
awyers and some goverment hot shots will left to them...- Univeral Histor
y will not let me lie.
-
There are several fiction films of overegulated "nations of the future" tha
t might make all of Think.
-
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Do not archive
--- On Tue, 4/21/09, lwhitlow <ldwhitlow@comcast.net> wrote:
From: lwhitlow <ldwhitlow@comcast.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
<ldwhitlow@comcast.net>
I am astounded with all of the nonsense that has cropped up on this list ov
er
the 601XL issues.
I cannot believe that adults, when faced with a challenging issue, choose t
o
resort to the hysteria, name calling, snippy remarks and personal attacks,
that
I have had to wade through here.
For someone to, in written form, attack a young girl is just so unspeakably
wrong. Please note that among all of the contributions she has made to this
list
SHE ALSO SHARES THE JOY OF FLIGHT!
Whoever you are sir, you have earned a level of shame that I can only imagi
ne.
The honorable man would never show his face here again.
This issue will not be solved by making the Zenith staff or the Heintz fami
ly
the target of anger. We need communication and discussion. The encounter
that
someone had with the Heintz family at Sun and Fun just puts us further away
from
a solution. Why would anyone at Zenith want to talk to anyone who has appro
ached
them in that manner?
I have just as much at stake here as the next fellow. I've got more than
$55,000 invested in my 601XL and am only a few months away from being ready
for
inspection. All of this noise and hysteria is doing far more damage to the
reputation of the airplane than the NTSB letter.
I want to fly safe. If there is an issue with the 601XL then I want to fix
it.
The Heintz family is the obvious choice to design and issue a remedy if a
problem is found, but they are not the only source. Grab a book on theory a
nd
find the answer yourself. Discuss the problem with other aircraft builders
and
adapt another aircraft's solution to your own.
PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY Take some.
Remember this is an EXPERIMENTAL AMATEUR BUILT AIRCRAFT. A large number of
them
have been designed and built by people with no formal aircraft design
experience. If you feel that the design is deficient then take the
responsibility to do something about it. If you don't feel comfortable
about doing that, then I respectfully submit that you should reconsider you
r
decision to build an experimental aircraft.
If it is your choice to wait until a fix is issued, what if the additional
engineering Zenith is undertaking shows none is necessary???
What will you do????
The NTSB has made errors in the past. They might just be erring on the side
of
caution here. Quite simply if you don't trust the machine don't fly it.
You the builder / pilot bear the final responsibility.
For those of you who own a factory SLSA version, I do feel for you, as your
options are limited by the rules and regs. We the builders have more optio
ns
and we should use them more wisely so we can get this monkey off of the
fleet's back and move on.
I think that since a governmental agency has referenced results from an
engineering report produced by the ZBAG group, If the ZBAG group truly has
the
best interests of the airplane at heart, they should release the results of
the
report referenced by the NTSB. That way the data collected by Zenith in thi
s
round of testing could be compared to the ZBAG results and we could get som
e
closure to this issue.
And by all means whoever filed the FOIA request with the NTSB, please keep
us
informed as to its status.
Larry Whitlow
Zenith 601XL N69102 (Reserved)
Jabiru 3300
Flying later this summer COUNT ON IT!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240621#240621
=0A=0A=0A
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions |
to the NTSB.
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 06:40:44PM -0700, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
> Matthew doesn't think the NTSB has any standing in this mess. He said
> they didn't have any proof to convince him that their decision was the
> right one at least 5 times in the tent session. He has hired a couple of
> engineering firms to do some studies of the design and he gives them
> complete credence while considering the NTSB mostly worthless. The good
> news is he thinks the highly paid engineers will be finished with their
> work and submit their findings within 2 weeks. He said he will base his
> further actions on those findings.
There are definitely contradictions in the NTSB's report as opposed to their
findings in at least one case (N158MD), and the Dutch report seems to have
come completely out of left field.
> My position was that the NTSB ruling was authoritative and needed to be
> respected. Since the NTSB screamed we need aileron mass balancing we need
> aileron mass balancing.
Hang on. Later on, you say:
> My point about the changes is that only the Heintz clan and their companies
> can issue an authoritative engineering change.
These two statements contradict each other. If the NTSB can authoritatively
say that aileron mass balances are needed, they obviously can make
authoritative statements about the Zodiac's engineering. Which is it?
> My general impression is that it will take a long time for Matthew the come
> around and issue the needed design changes. I expect my plane to be
> grounded (by me) for a long time.
This is your choice, of course. It's always acceptable to answer "no" to the
question "am I going to fly today?". I have made a different choice, and am
completely comfortable with it. So have others. I respect your choice;
please respect that of those who choose to continue flying.
> The central issue is Matthew's decision process, and he doesn't seem to
> see it my way.
If you insist that only one solution is acceptable, aren't you making an
engineering decision about the aircraft's design? Didn't you say that was
the Heintz' sole domain?
Bear in mind that, after careful engineering study, it's possible Mathieu
Heintz will conclude no mass balance is necessary, or that the stick force
gradient is not a problem, either because it does not in fact get lower with
higher G, or because it's far enough outside the envelope that it won't be
encountered anyway. Despite what I believe is an irritating slowness in
deciding to run the necessary studies, they are now collecting real, hard
data, apparently both on the US and European aircraft. (Was that confirmed
at the forum? If I'd been there, I'd have asked.) Real data trumps general
principles every time.
If Mathieu reaches that conclusion, what will you do? Take a chainsaw to
your airplane?
> I will continue to apply as much pressure on him as I can, even thought I
> think it is wasted effort. I simply have no reasonable alternative.
I suspect that applying continued pressure will be counterproductive.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions |
to...
On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 12:13:38AM -0400, JohnDRead@aol.com wrote:
> Can some body tell me what a ZBAG is? Is it some foreign group who do not
> like Zenith aircraft or what?
The Zenith Builders Analysis Group is a group of concerned Zodiac builders,
owners, and pilots who banded together to commission an independent
engineering study of the Zodiac. It was formed in response to what was seen
at the time as Zenair's reluctance to do full engineering studies of the
Zodiac's structure, both static and dynamic.
I am a contributing member of ZBAG. I can assure you that I love my Zodiac,
and would like nothing more than to see the cloud over it removed - whatever
that takes.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions |
to the NTSB.
On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 11:29:52AM -0400, Juan Vega wrote:
> thats the most narcissistic email I have read. I think you need to chill
> or take your meds. amazing.
Juan, nobody asked you. Go crawl back under your rock.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
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| Subject: | Re: Lets all get a grip here........ |
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 08:21:47PM -0700, lwhitlow wrote:
> This issue will not be solved by making the Zenith staff or the Heintz
> family the target of anger. We need communication and discussion. The
> encounter that someone had with the Heintz family at Sun and Fun just puts
> us further away from a solution. Why would anyone at Zenith want to talk
> to anyone who has approached them in that manner?
Indeed. That's why I think Paul's approach is counterproductive, and why I
haven't been leaning on AMD. It's in their best interest to see the issue
resolved as quickly as possible; I'm not going to make that go any faster by
pestering them.
> I have just as much at stake here as the next fellow. I've got more than
> $55,000 invested in my 601XL and am only a few months away from being
> ready for inspection.
Regardless of how much money we have invested (and, FWIW, I've got about 2.5
times that in mine), it's about something infinitely more valuable: our
lives, and those of our loved ones. If there's a serious problem, are we
playing Russian roulette every time we pull the stick back? If I seriously
thought the risk was more than minimal, I wouldn't fly mine again either.
OTOH, I could be wrong. You pays your money and you takes your chance.
> All of this noise and hysteria is doing far more damage to the reputation
> of the airplane than the NTSB letter.
To this, I have to disagree in the strongest terms. Before the NTSB made its
recommendations, the issue was not well known. Now, every pilot who follows
the news, and lots of other people, know about it. The problem is not
insurmountabe - as long as either a fix is found and implemented or else
it's conclusively demonstrated that no fix is needed, bu real, hard data
backing up sound engineering studies. Other aircraft have had similar
issues, and they've all surmounted them.
> I want to fly safe. If there is an issue with the 601XL then I want to
> fix it. The Heintz family is the obvious choice to design and issue a
> remedy if a problem is found, but they are not the only source. Grab a
> book on theory and find the answer yourself. Discuss the problem with
> other aircraft builders and adapt another aircraft's solution to your own.
This is great for the builder, but doesn't do me a damned bit of good as an
SLSA owner.
> I think that since a governmental agency has referenced results from an
> engineering report produced by the ZBAG group, If the ZBAG group truly has
> the best interests of the airplane at heart, they should release the
> results of the report referenced by the NTSB. That way the data collected
> by Zenith in this round of testing could be compared to the ZBAG results
> and we could get some closure to this issue.
I've made this argument. The engineers who have writen the ZBAG reports have
declined to have them released, both because they are preliminary in nature
and because they contain proprietary data that they obtained under a
nondisclosure agreement. I think ZBAG needs to release as much as it can
publicly, just to alleviate the hate and discontent that some members of the
Zodiac community have flung its way. As Ben Franklin said, "If we do not
hang together, we shall most assuredly all hang separately."
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Lets all get a grip here........ |
Pirep three:
Just got in from a three hour flight my my 601XL.
Only issue was I had to adjust the fuel cap because it leaked at 130MPH.
I tried my best to induce aileron flutter.
Tried it at many speeds and NOTHING.
Nothing but a stable aileron.
I tried tapping on the stick to get a reaction from the control. I
watch the ailerons extreamly close. Nothing....
My cables were check last night and were 36 pounds.
Steve Weston
Test Pilot
N 9554 Z
Zenith 601 XL
6.5 hours and having fun, but also watching out the canopy....
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Gower
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Hello Larry,
Congratulations! Poeple thinking like you, are the only ones
that can preserve freedom of flying (Worldwide). Self responsible
people, is what is needed.
All the others will get in the next future, the little freedom
that the lawyers and some goverment hot shots will left to them...
Univeral History will not let me lie.
There are several fiction films of overegulated "nations of the
future" that might make all of Think.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Do not archive
--- On Tue, 4/21/09, lwhitlow <ldwhitlow@comcast.net> wrote:
From: lwhitlow <ldwhitlow@comcast.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 11:21 PM
<ldwhitlow@comcast.net>
I am astounded with all of the nonsense that has cropped up on this list
over
the 601XL issues.
I cannot believe that adults, when faced with a challenging issue,
choose to
resort to the hysteria, name calling, snippy remarks and personal
attacks, that
I have had to wade through here.
For someone to, in written form, attack a young girl is just so
unspeakably
wrong. Please note that among all of the contributions she has made to
this list
SHE ALSO SHARES THE JOY OF FLIGHT!
Whoever you are sir, you have earned a level of shame that I can only
imagine.
The honorable man would never show his face here again.
This issue will not be solved by making the Zenith staff or the Heintz
family
the target of anger. We need communication and discussion. The
encounter that
someone had with the Heintz family at Sun and Fun just puts us further
away from
a solution. Why would anyone at Zenith want to talk to anyone who has
approached
them in that manner?
I have just as much at stake here as the next fellow. I've got more than
$55,000 invested in my 601XL and am only a few months away from being
ready for
inspection. All of this noise and hysteria is doing far more damage to
the
reputation of the airplane than the NTSB letter.
I want to fly safe. If there is an issue with the 601XL then I want to
fix it.
The Heintz family is the obvious choice to design and issue a remedy if
a
problem is found, but they are not the only source. Grab a book on
theory and
find the answer yourself. Discuss the problem with other aircraft
builders and
adapt another aircraft's solution to your own.
PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY Take some.
Remember this is an EXPERIMENTAL AMATEUR BUILT AIRCRAFT. A large number
of them
have been designed and built by people with no formal aircraft design
experience. If you feel that the design is deficient then take the
responsibility to do something about it. If you don't feel comfortable
about doing that, then I respectfully submit that you should reconsider
your
decision to build an experimental aircraft.
If it is your choice to wait until a fix is issued, what if the
additional
engineering Zenith is undertaking shows none is necessary???
What will you do????
The NTSB has made errors in the past. They might just be erring on the
side of
caution here. Quite simply if you don't trust the machine don't fly it.
You the builder / pilot bear the final responsibility.
For those of you who own a factory SLSA version, I do feel for you, as
your
options are limited by the rules and regs. We the builders have more
options
and we should use them more wisely so we can get this monkey off of the
fleet's back and move on.
I think that since a governmental agency has referenced results from an
engineering report produced by the ZBAG group, If the ZBAG group truly
has the
best interests of the airplane at heart, they should release the results
of the
report referenced by the NTSB. That way the data collected by Zenith in
this
round of testing could be compared to the ZBAG results and we could get
some
closure to this issue.
And by all means whoever filed the FOIA request with the NTSB, please
keep us
informed as to its status.
Larry Whitlow
Zenith 601XL N69102 (Reserved)
Jabiru 3300
Flying later this summer COUNT ON IT!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240621#240621
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| Subject: | Lets all get a grip here........ |
I think I found the real cause of the inflight breakups-gremlins: http://ww
w.youtube.com/watch?v=D1xqrdtJs8w
Do not archive
_________________________________________________________________
Rediscover Hotmail=AE: Get quick friend updates right in your inbox.
http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_
Updates2_042009
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions |
to the NTSB.
Jay,
it was addresed to Paul, the Hap Ki Do guy.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
>Sent: Apr 22, 2009 12:41 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions
to the NTSB.
>
>
>On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 06:40:44PM -0700, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
>> Matthew doesn't think the NTSB has any standing in this mess. He said
>> they didn't have any proof to convince him that their decision was the
>> right one at least 5 times in the tent session. He has hired a couple of
>> engineering firms to do some studies of the design and he gives them
>> complete credence while considering the NTSB mostly worthless. The good
>> news is he thinks the highly paid engineers will be finished with their
>> work and submit their findings within 2 weeks. He said he will base his
>> further actions on those findings.
>
>There are definitely contradictions in the NTSB's report as opposed to their
>findings in at least one case (N158MD), and the Dutch report seems to have
>come completely out of left field.
>
>> My position was that the NTSB ruling was authoritative and needed to be
>> respected. Since the NTSB screamed we need aileron mass balancing we need
>> aileron mass balancing.
>
>Hang on. Later on, you say:
>
>> My point about the changes is that only the Heintz clan and their companies
>> can issue an authoritative engineering change.
>
>These two statements contradict each other. If the NTSB can authoritatively
>say that aileron mass balances are needed, they obviously can make
>authoritative statements about the Zodiac's engineering. Which is it?
>
>> My general impression is that it will take a long time for Matthew the come
>> around and issue the needed design changes. I expect my plane to be
>> grounded (by me) for a long time.
>
>This is your choice, of course. It's always acceptable to answer "no" to the
>question "am I going to fly today?". I have made a different choice, and am
>completely comfortable with it. So have others. I respect your choice;
>please respect that of those who choose to continue flying.
>
>> The central issue is Matthew's decision process, and he doesn't seem to
>> see it my way.
>
>If you insist that only one solution is acceptable, aren't you making an
>engineering decision about the aircraft's design? Didn't you say that was
>the Heintz' sole domain?
>
>Bear in mind that, after careful engineering study, it's possible Mathieu
>Heintz will conclude no mass balance is necessary, or that the stick force
>gradient is not a problem, either because it does not in fact get lower with
>higher G, or because it's far enough outside the envelope that it won't be
>encountered anyway. Despite what I believe is an irritating slowness in
>deciding to run the necessary studies, they are now collecting real, hard
>data, apparently both on the US and European aircraft. (Was that confirmed
>at the forum? If I'd been there, I'd have asked.) Real data trumps general
>principles every time.
>
>If Mathieu reaches that conclusion, what will you do? Take a chainsaw to
>your airplane?
>
>> I will continue to apply as much pressure on him as I can, even thought I
>> think it is wasted effort. I simply have no reasonable alternative.
>
>I suspect that applying continued pressure will be counterproductive.
>--
>Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
>http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
>Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
>AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Lets all get a grip here........ |
I think I saw this one when it first came out. Bet a lot of you don't kno
w what the "4F" on Bugs' heart means or what an "A" ration sticker is abou
t.
Do not archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Roskind <frankroskind@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sent: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 3:14 pm
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
I think I found the real cause of the inflight breakups-gremlins: http://w
ww.youtube.com/watch?v=D1xqrdtJs8w
Do not archive
Rediscover Hotmail=C2=AE: Get quick friend updates right in your inbox.
Check it out.
========================
===========
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________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Lets all get a grip here........ |
Steve:
Just as a point of information: Some years ago a professional test
pilot was describing some of his experiences to our EAA chapter. He had
been doing a series of flutter tests on a Piper twin, following some mod
or other. A movie of the panel was being shot as the tests went on. As
he stabilized at the speed for his next test point he once again
"pulsed" the yoke. The airplane fluttered and disintegrated within
three or four frames of the 16mm film, which was running at 16 frames a
second. He escaped by parachute. A few years later he died, doing a
similar test.
My point is this: If you find flutter you may not have time to arrest
it and you may not live to report it, especially if you aren't equipped
to escape what's left of the airplane. I'd leave it to people who are
paid to look for it.
George
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: steve
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Pirep three:
Just got in from a three hour flight my my 601XL.
Only issue was I had to adjust the fuel cap because it leaked at
130MPH.
I tried my best to induce aileron flutter.
Tried it at many speeds and NOTHING.
Nothing but a stable aileron.
I tried tapping on the stick to get a reaction from the control. I
watch the ailerons extreamly close. Nothing....
My cables were check last night and were 36 pounds.
Steve Weston
Test Pilot
N 9554 Z
Zenith 601 XL
6.5 hours and having fun, but also watching out the canopy....
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Gower
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Hello Larry,
Congratulations! Poeple thinking like you, are the only ones
that can preserve freedom of flying (Worldwide). Self responsible
people, is what is needed.
All the others will get in the next future, the little freedom
that the lawyers and some goverment hot shots will left to them...
Univeral History will not let me lie.
There are several fiction films of overegulated "nations of
the future" that might make all of Think.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Do not archive
--- On Tue, 4/21/09, lwhitlow <ldwhitlow@comcast.net> wrote:
From: lwhitlow <ldwhitlow@comcast.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 11:21 PM
<ldwhitlow@comcast.net>
I am astounded with all of the nonsense that has cropped up on this list
over
the 601XL issues.
I cannot believe that adults, when faced with a challenging issue,
choose to
resort to the hysteria, name calling, snippy remarks and personal
attacks, that
I have had to wade through here.
For someone to, in written form, attack a young girl is just so
unspeakably
wrong. Please note that among all of the contributions she has made to
this list
SHE ALSO SHARES THE JOY OF FLIGHT!
Whoever you are sir, you have earned a level of shame that I can only
imagine.
The honorable man would never show his face here again.
This issue will not be solved by making the Zenith staff or the Heintz
family
the target of anger. We need communication and discussion. The
encounter that
someone had with the Heintz family at Sun and Fun just puts us further
away from
a solution. Why would anyone at Zenith want to talk to anyone who has
approached
them in that manner?
I have just as much at stake here as the next fellow. I've got more than
$55,000 invested in my 601XL and am only a few months away from being
ready for
inspection. All of this noise and hysteria is doing far more damage to
the
reputation of the airplane than the NTSB letter.
I want to fly safe. If there is an issue with the 601XL then I want to
fix it.
The Heintz family is the obvious choice to design and issue a remedy if
a
problem is found, but they are not the only source. Grab a book on
theory and
find the answer yourself. Discuss the problem with other aircraft
builders and
adapt another aircraft's solution to your own.
PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY Take some.
Remember this is an EXPERIMENTAL AMATEUR BUILT AIRCRAFT. A large number
of them
have been designed and built by people with no formal aircraft design
experience. If you feel that the design is deficient then take the
responsibility to do something about it. If you don't feel comfortable
about doing that, then I respectfully submit that you should reconsider
your
decision to build an experimental aircraft.
If it is your choice to wait until a fix is issued, what if the
additional
engineering Zenith is undertaking shows none is necessary???
What will you do????
The NTSB has made errors in the past. They might just be erring on the
side of
caution here. Quite simply if you don't trust the machine don't fly it.
You the builder / pilot bear the final responsibility.
For those of you who own a factory SLSA version, I do feel for you, as
your
options are limited by the rules and regs. We the builders have more
options
and we should use them more wisely so we can get this monkey off of the
fleet's back and move on.
I think that since a governmental agency has referenced results from an
engineering report produced by the ZBAG group, If the ZBAG group truly
has the
best interests of the airplane at heart, they should release the results
of the
report referenced by the NTSB. That way the data collected by Zenith in
this
round of testing could be compared to the ZBAG results and we could get
some
closure to this issue.
And by all means whoever filed the FOIA request with the NTSB, please
keep us
informed as to its status.
Larry Whitlow
Zenith 601XL N69102 (Reserved)
Jabiru 3300
Flying later this summer COUNT ON IT!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240621#240621
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 16
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| Subject: | Lets all get a grip here........ |
Steve
Are you suggesting we all wear parachutes until this thing gets figured out?
Roger
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Swinford
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Steve:
Just as a point of information: Some years ago a professional test pilot
was describing some of his experiences to our EAA chapter. He had been
doing a series of flutter tests on a Piper twin, following some mod or
other. A movie of the panel was being shot as the tests went on. As he
stabilized at the speed for his next test point he once again "pulsed" the
yoke. The airplane fluttered and disintegrated within three or four frames
of the 16mm film, which was running at 16 frames a second. He escaped by
parachute. A few years later he died, doing a similar test.
My point is this: If you find flutter you may not have time to arrest it
and you may not live to report it, especially if you aren't equipped to
escape what's left of the airplane. I'd leave it to people who are paid to
look for it.
George
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: steve <mailto:notsew_evets@frontiernet.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Pirep three:
Just got in from a three hour flight my my 601XL.
Only issue was I had to adjust the fuel cap because it leaked at 130MPH.
I tried my best to induce aileron flutter.
Tried it at many speeds and NOTHING.
Nothing but a stable aileron.
I tried tapping on the stick to get a reaction from the control. I watch
the ailerons extreamly close. Nothing....
My cables were check last night and were 36 pounds.
Steve Weston
Test Pilot
N 9554 Z
Zenith 601 XL
6.5 hours and having fun, but also watching out the canopy....
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Gower <mailto:ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Hello Larry,
Congratulations! Poeple thinking like you, are the only ones that can
preserve freedom of flying (Worldwide). Self responsible people, is what
is needed.
All the others will get in the next future, the little freedom that the
lawyers and some goverment hot shots will left to them... Univeral History
will not let me lie.
There are several fiction films of overegulated "nations of the future" that
might make all of Think.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Do not archive
--- On Tue, 4/21/09, lwhitlow <ldwhitlow@comcast.net> wrote:
From: lwhitlow <ldwhitlow@comcast.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
<ldwhitlow@comcast.net>
I am astounded with all of the nonsense that has cropped up on this list
over
the 601XL issues.
I cannot believe that adults, when faced with a challenging issue, choose to
resort to the hysteria, name calling, snippy remarks and personal attacks,
that
I have had to wade through here.
For someone to, in written form, attack a young girl is just so unspeakably
wrong. Please note that among all of the contributions she has made to this
list
SHE ALSO SHARES THE JOY OF FLIGHT!
Whoever you are sir, you have earned a level of shame that I can only
imagine.
The honorable man would never show his face here again.
This issue will not be solved by making the Zenith staff or the Heintz
family
the target of anger. We need communication and discussion. The encounter
that
someone had with the Heintz family at Sun and Fun just puts us further away
from
a solution. Why would anyone at Zenith want to talk to anyone who has
approached
them in that manner?
I have just as much at stake here as the next fellow. I've got more than
$55,000 invested in my 601XL and am only a few months away from being ready
for
inspection. All of this noise and hysteria is doing far more damage to the
reputation of the airplane than the NTSB letter.
I want to fly safe. If there is an issue with the 601XL then I want to fix
it.
The Heintz family is the obvious choice to design and issue a remedy if a
problem is found, but they are not the only source. Grab a book on theory
and
find the answer yourself. Discuss the problem with other aircraft builders
and
adapt another aircraft's solution to your own.
PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY Take some.
Remember this is an EXPERIMENTAL AMATEUR BUILT AIRCRAFT. A large number of
them
have been designed and built by people with no formal aircraft design
experience. If you feel that the design is deficient then take the
responsibility to do something about it. If you don't feel comfortable
about doing that, then I respectfully submit that you should reconsider your
decision to build an experimental aircraft.
If it is your choice to wait until a fix is issued, what if the additional
engineering Zenith is undertaking shows none is necessary???
What will you do????
The NTSB has made errors in the past. They might just be erring on the side
of
caution here. Quite simply if you don't trust the machine don't fly it.
You the builder / pilot bear the final responsibility.
For those of you who own a factory SLSA version, I do feel for you, as your
options are limited by the rules and regs. We the builders have more
options
and we should use them more wisely so we can get this monkey off of the
fleet's back and move on.
I think that since a governmental agency has referenced results from an
engineering report produced by the ZBAG group, If the ZBAG group truly has
the
best interests of the airplane at heart, they should release the results of
the
report referenced by the NTSB. That way the data collected by Zenith in this
round of testing could be compared to the ZBAG results and we could get some
closure to this issue.
And by all means whoever filed the FOIA request with the NTSB, please keep
us
informed as to its status.
Larry Whitlow
Zenith 601XL N69102 (Reserved)
Jabiru 3300
Flying later this summer COUNT ON IT!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240621#240621
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Lets all get a grip here........ |
I never leave home without it.............
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger & Lina Hill
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 3:43 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Steve
Are you suggesting we all wear parachutes until this thing gets
figured out?
Roger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George
Swinford
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 5:11 PM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Steve:
Just as a point of information: Some years ago a professional test
pilot was describing some of his experiences to our EAA chapter. He had
been doing a series of flutter tests on a Piper twin, following some mod
or other. A movie of the panel was being shot as the tests went on. As
he stabilized at the speed for his next test point he once again
"pulsed" the yoke. The airplane fluttered and disintegrated within
three or four frames of the 16mm film, which was running at 16 frames a
second. He escaped by parachute. A few years later he died, doing a
similar test.
My point is this: If you find flutter you may not have time to arrest
it and you may not live to report it, especially if you aren't equipped
to escape what's left of the airplane. I'd leave it to people who are
paid to look for it.
George
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: steve
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Pirep three:
Just got in from a three hour flight my my 601XL.
Only issue was I had to adjust the fuel cap because it leaked at
130MPH.
I tried my best to induce aileron flutter.
Tried it at many speeds and NOTHING.
Nothing but a stable aileron.
I tried tapping on the stick to get a reaction from the control. I
watch the ailerons extreamly close. Nothing....
My cables were check last night and were 36 pounds.
Steve Weston
Test Pilot
N 9554 Z
Zenith 601 XL
6.5 hours and having fun, but also watching out the canopy....
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Gower
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Hello Larry,
Congratulations! Poeple thinking like you, are the only
ones that can preserve freedom of flying (Worldwide). Self responsible
people, is what is needed.
All the others will get in the next future, the little
freedom that the lawyers and some goverment hot shots will left to
them... Univeral History will not let me lie.
There are several fiction films of overegulated "nations of
the future" that might make all of Think.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Do not archive
--- On Tue, 4/21/09, lwhitlow <ldwhitlow@comcast.net> wrote:
From: lwhitlow <ldwhitlow@comcast.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 11:21 PM
am astounded with all of the nonsense that has cropped up on this list
overthe 601XL issues. I cannot believe that adults, when faced with a
challenging issue, choose to resort to the hysteria, name calling,
snippy remarks and personal attacks, thatI have had to wade through
here. For someone to, in written form, attack a young girl is just so
unspeakablywrong. Please note that among all of the contributions she
has made to this listSHE ALSO SHARES THE JOY OF FLIGHT! Whoever you are
sir, you have earned a level of shame that I can only imagine.The
honorable man would never show his face here again. This issue will not
be solved by making the Zenith staff or the Heintz familythe target of
anger. We need communication and discussion. The encounter thatsomeone
had with the Heintz family at Sun and Fun just puts us further away
froma solution. Why would anyone at Zenith want to talk to anyone who
has approachedthem in that manner? I have just as much at stake here as
the next fellow. I've got more than$55,000 invested in my 601XL and am
only a few months away from being ready forinspection. All of this noise
and hysteria is doing far more damage to thereputation of the airplane
than the NTSB letter. I want to fly safe. If there is an issue with the
601XL then I want to fix it.The Heintz family is the obvious choice to
design and issue a remedy if aproblem is found, but they are not the
only source. Grab a book on theory andfind the answer yourself. Discuss
the problem with other aircraft builders andadapt another aircraft's
solution to your own. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY Take some. Remember
this is an EXPERIMENTAL AMATEUR BUILT AIRCRAFT. A large number of
themhave been designed and built by people with no formal aircraft
designexperience. If you feel that the design is deficient then take
theresponsibility to do something about it. If you don't feel
comfortableabout doing that, then I respectfully submit that you should
reconsider yourdecision to build an experimental aircraft. If it is your
choice to wait until a fix is issued, what if the additionalengineering
Zenith is undertaking shows none is necessary??? What will you do????
The NTSB has made errors in the past. They might just be erring on the
side ofcaution here. Quite simply if you don't trust the machine don't
fly it.You the builder / pilot bear the final responsibility. For those
of you who own a factory SLSA version, I do feel for you, as youroptions
are limited by the rules and regs. We the builders have more optionsand
we should use them more wisely so we can get this monkey off of
thefleet's back and move on. I think that since a governmental agency
has referenced results from anengineering report produced by the ZBAG
group, If the ZBAG group truly has thebest interests of the airplane at
heart, they should release the results of thereport referenced by the
NTSB. That way the data collected by Zenith in thisround of testing
could be compared to the ZBAG results and we could get someclosure to
this issue. And by all means whoever filed the FOIA request with the
NTSB, please keep usinformed as to its status. Larry WhitlowZenith
601XL N69102 (Reserved)Jabiru 3300 Flying later this summer COUNT ON
IT! Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240621#240621
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="h
ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="h
ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Lets all get a grip here........ |
Roger:
In case you intended that response for me, rather than instead of Steve,
I just meant to point out that finding flutter can be a once in a
lifetime experience. While all this mess is unresolved it would be
safest to fly conservatively, and avoid twisting the dragon's tail.
George
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger & Lina Hill
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 3:43 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Steve
Are you suggesting we all wear parachutes until this thing gets
figured out?
Roger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George
Swinford
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 5:11 PM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Steve:
Just as a point of information: Some years ago a professional test
pilot was describing some of his experiences to our EAA chapter. He had
been doing a series of flutter tests on a Piper twin, following some mod
or other. A movie of the panel was being shot as the tests went on. As
he stabilized at the speed for his next test point he once again
"pulsed" the yoke. The airplane fluttered and disintegrated within
three or four frames of the 16mm film, which was running at 16 frames a
second. He escaped by parachute. A few years later he died, doing a
similar test.
My point is this: If you find flutter you may not have time to arrest
it and you may not live to report it, especially if you aren't equipped
to escape what's left of the airplane. I'd leave it to people who are
paid to look for it.
George
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: steve
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Pirep three:
Just got in from a three hour flight my my 601XL.
Only issue was I had to adjust the fuel cap because it leaked at
130MPH.
I tried my best to induce aileron flutter.
Tried it at many speeds and NOTHING.
Nothing but a stable aileron.
I tried tapping on the stick to get a reaction from the control. I
watch the ailerons extreamly close. Nothing....
My cables were check last night and were 36 pounds.
Steve Weston
Test Pilot
N 9554 Z
Zenith 601 XL
6.5 hours and having fun, but also watching out the canopy....
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Gower
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Hello Larry,
Congratulations! Poeple thinking like you, are the only
ones that can preserve freedom of flying (Worldwide). Self responsible
people, is what is needed.
All the others will get in the next future, the little
freedom that the lawyers and some goverment hot shots will left to
them... Univeral History will not let me lie.
There are several fiction films of overegulated "nations of
the future" that might make all of Think.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Do not archive
--- On Tue, 4/21/09, lwhitlow <ldwhitlow@comcast.net> wrote:
From: lwhitlow <ldwhitlow@comcast.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 11:21 PM
am astounded with all of the nonsense that has cropped up on this list
overthe 601XL issues. I cannot believe that adults, when faced with a
challenging issue, choose to resort to the hysteria, name calling,
snippy remarks and personal attacks, thatI have had to wade through
here. For someone to, in written form, attack a young girl is just so
unspeakablywrong. Please note that among all of the contributions she
has made to this listSHE ALSO SHARES THE JOY OF FLIGHT! Whoever you are
sir, you have earned a level of shame that I can only imagine.The
honorable man would never show his face here again. This issue will not
be solved by making the Zenith staff or the Heintz familythe target of
anger. We need communication and discussion. The encounter thatsomeone
had with the Heintz family at Sun and Fun just puts us further away
froma solution. Why would anyone at Zenith want to talk to anyone who
has approachedthem in that manner? I have just as much at stake here as
the next fellow. I've got more than$55,000 invested in my 601XL and am
only a few months away from being ready forinspection. All of this noise
and hysteria is doing far more damage to thereputation of the airplane
than the NTSB letter. I want to fly safe. If there is an issue with the
601XL then I want to fix it.The Heintz family is the obvious choice to
design and issue a remedy if aproblem is found, but they are not the
only source. Grab a book on theory andfind the answer yourself. Discuss
the problem with other aircraft builders andadapt another aircraft's
solution to your own. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY Take some. Remember
this is an EXPERIMENTAL AMATEUR BUILT AIRCRAFT. A large number of
themhave been designed and built by people with no formal aircraft
designexperience. If you feel that the design is deficient then take
theresponsibility to do something about it. If you don't feel
comfortableabout doing that, then I respectfully submit that you should
reconsider yourdecision to build an experimental aircraft. If it is your
choice to wait until a fix is issued, what if the additionalengineering
Zenith is undertaking shows none is necessary??? What will you do????
The NTSB has made errors in the past. They might just be erring on the
side ofcaution here. Quite simply if you don't trust the machine don't
fly it.You the builder / pilot bear the final responsibility. For those
of you who own a factory SLSA version, I do feel for you, as youroptions
are limited by the rules and regs. We the builders have more optionsand
we should use them more wisely so we can get this monkey off of
thefleet's back and move on. I think that since a governmental agency
has referenced results from anengineering report produced by the ZBAG
group, If the ZBAG group truly has thebest interests of the airplane at
heart, they should release the results of thereport referenced by the
NTSB. That way the data collected by Zenith in thisround of testing
could be compared to the ZBAG results and we could get someclosure to
this issue. And by all means whoever filed the FOIA request with the
NTSB, please keep usinformed as to its status. Larry WhitlowZenith
601XL N69102 (Reserved)Jabiru 3300 Flying later this summer COUNT ON
IT! Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240621#240621
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="h
ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="h
ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 19
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| Subject: | Lets all get a grip here........ |
Even those of us born in the 50=99s know about gas rationing in
WW2. And 4F was used in the draft after WW2.
-- Craig
Do not archive
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
jaybannist@cs.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
I think I saw this one when it first came out. Bet a lot of you don't
know what the "4F" on Bugs' heart means or what an "A" ration sticker is
about.
Do not archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Roskind <frankroskind@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sent: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 3:14 pm
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
I think I found the real cause of the inflight breakups-gremlins:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1xqrdtJs8w
Do not archive
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ator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
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Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Lets all get a grip here........ |
Not sure who you were replying to, but tempting the beast might not be
the best idea. I know little about aerodynamic flutter but the videos
available make me think that if it strikes, you are lucky if you have
time to correct.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTFZNrTYp3k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU7c0XgfqKE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D7YCCLGu5Y
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger & Lina Hill
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 7:43 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Steve
Are you suggesting we all wear parachutes until this thing gets
figured out?
Roger
Message 21
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| Subject: | Lets all get a grip here........ |
George,
This is the best point I have read on this site for months, leave it to the
experts.
Regards,
Greg Cox
Sydney, Australia
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Swinford
Sent: Thursday, 23 April 2009 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Steve:
Just as a point of information: Some years ago a professional test pilot
was describing some of his experiences to our EAA chapter. He had been
doing a series of flutter tests on a Piper twin, following some mod or
other. A movie of the panel was being shot as the tests went on. As he
stabilized at the speed for his next test point he once again "pulsed" the
yoke. The airplane fluttered and disintegrated within three or four frames
of the 16mm film, which was running at 16 frames a second. He escaped by
parachute. A few years later he died, doing a similar test.
My point is this: If you find flutter you may not have time to arrest it
and you may not live to report it, especially if you aren't equipped to
escape what's left of the airplane. I'd leave it to people who are paid to
look for it.
George
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: steve <mailto:notsew_evets@frontiernet.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Pirep three:
Just got in from a three hour flight my my 601XL.
Only issue was I had to adjust the fuel cap because it leaked at 130MPH.
I tried my best to induce aileron flutter.
Tried it at many speeds and NOTHING.
Nothing but a stable aileron.
I tried tapping on the stick to get a reaction from the control. I watch
the ailerons extreamly close. Nothing....
My cables were check last night and were 36 pounds.
Steve Weston
Test Pilot
N 9554 Z
Zenith 601 XL
6.5 hours and having fun, but also watching out the canopy....
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Gower <mailto:ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Hello Larry,
Congratulations! Poeple thinking like you, are the only ones that can
preserve freedom of flying (Worldwide). Self responsible people, is what
is needed.
All the others will get in the next future, the little freedom that the
lawyers and some goverment hot shots will left to them... Univeral History
will not let me lie.
There are several fiction films of overegulated "nations of the future" that
might make all of Think.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Do not archive
--- On Tue, 4/21/09, lwhitlow <ldwhitlow@comcast.net> wrote:
From: lwhitlow <ldwhitlow@comcast.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
<ldwhitlow@comcast.net>
I am astounded with all of the nonsense that has cropped up on this list
over
the 601XL issues.
I cannot believe that adults, when faced with a challenging issue, choose to
resort to the hysteria, name calling, snippy remarks and personal attacks,
that
I have had to wade through here.
For someone to, in written form, attack a young girl is just so unspeakably
wrong. Please note that among all of the contributions she has made to this
list
SHE ALSO SHARES THE JOY OF FLIGHT!
Whoever you are sir, you have earned a level of shame that I can only
imagine.
The honorable man would never show his face here again.
This issue will not be solved by making the Zenith staff or the Heintz
family
the target of anger. We need communication and discussion. The encounter
that
someone had with the Heintz family at Sun and Fun just puts us further away
from
a solution. Why would anyone at Zenith want to talk to anyone who has
approached
them in that manner?
I have just as much at stake here as the next fellow. I've got more than
$55,000 invested in my 601XL and am only a few months away from being ready
for
inspection. All of this noise and hysteria is doing far more damage to the
reputation of the airplane than the NTSB letter.
I want to fly safe. If there is an issue with the 601XL then I want to fix
it.
The Heintz family is the obvious choice to design and issue a remedy if a
problem is found, but they are not the only source. Grab a book on theory
and
find the answer yourself. Discuss the problem with other aircraft builders
and
adapt another aircraft's solution to your own.
PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY Take some.
Remember this is an EXPERIMENTAL AMATEUR BUILT AIRCRAFT. A large number of
them
have been designed and built by people with no formal aircraft design
experience. If you feel that the design is deficient then take the
responsibility to do something about it. If you don't feel comfortable
about doing that, then I respectfully submit that you should reconsider your
decision to build an experimental aircraft.
If it is your choice to wait until a fix is issued, what if the additional
engineering Zenith is undertaking shows none is necessary???
What will you do????
The NTSB has made errors in the past. They might just be erring on the side
of
caution here. Quite simply if you don't trust the machine don't fly it.
You the builder / pilot bear the final responsibility.
For those of you who own a factory SLSA version, I do feel for you, as your
options are limited by the rules and regs. We the builders have more
options
and we should use them more wisely so we can get this monkey off of the
fleet's back and move on.
I think that since a governmental agency has referenced results from an
engineering report produced by the ZBAG group, If the ZBAG group truly has
the
best interests of the airplane at heart, they should release the results of
the
report referenced by the NTSB. That way the data collected by Zenith in this
round of testing could be compared to the ZBAG results and we could get some
closure to this issue.
And by all means whoever filed the FOIA request with the NTSB, please keep
us
informed as to its status.
Larry Whitlow
Zenith 601XL N69102 (Reserved)
Jabiru 3300
Flying later this summer COUNT ON IT!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240621#240621
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions |
to the NTSB.
Hi Jay,
I believe your comments are quite valid and interesting so I will try
to continue the discussion down your path. I have decided the
flaming is just irritating and not worth reply.
I will try again to deal with the engineering vs. political issue here.
There are definite engineering questions about the quality of the
Zodiac XL design. So far as I know there have been exactly zero
reasonable answers to most or all of them. The exception to this in
my mind is the new issue raised by the NTSB report about the stick
gradient. That one seems to be a very simple engineering flaw in the
design. I personally don't know that it is true or false, but it
should be nearly child's play to confirm it and design a fix -
compared to the other issues at hand. I believe Matthew would agree
that there is no real engineering confirmation of most of the issues
(the stick one is brand new, while the accidents have been going on
over years). He has said many times in my presence that the
engineering report he expects soon is needed for him to believe there
is a problem in the design.
This is an entirely different question than the NTSB "Authority" in
this matter. My understanding (subject to more correction if needed)
is that their role is in accident analysis which is not even close to
engineering design analysis. The two are completely different
efforts done with different data and different thinking. Their
conclusion which seems completely clear to me is that the XL needs
aileron balancing. I merely accept their conclusion because they
made it. I don't know if it is right or not from an engineering
analysis point of view, but I don't think they or the FAA or I care
one iota if the engineering analysis agrees with the NTSB ruling or
not. They are just different issues.
If everyone could just agree that these are separate issues, then the
whole mess could be cleaned up very quickly.
I see the design process as disconnected from the accident analysis
process. If it is needed to implement a design change, then it
doesn't really matter why the change is needed to do a professional
job of designing the change. I know this sounds crazy, but please
give me a little respect here. I spent a career doing just this sort
of thing in the electronics and communication industry. I really do
know what I am saying here is rational even if the whole group of
non-engineers in the group doesn't get it or disagrees.
I am out of time for now, so please forgive me if I missed an
important point or two. The restaurants here in Florida are getting
close to closing time and I want my dinner.
Paul
XL grounded
do not archive
>=============================================
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Lets all get a grip here........ |
Thanks George.
This aint my first rodeo but I ll sure be careful...
SW
----- Original Message -----
From: George Swinford
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Steve:
Just as a point of information: Some years ago a professional test
pilot was describing some of his experiences to our EAA chapter. He had
been doing a series of flutter tests on a Piper twin, following some mod
or other. A movie of the panel was being shot as the tests went on. As
he stabilized at the speed for his next test point he once again
"pulsed" the yoke. The airplane fluttered and disintegrated within
three or four frames of the 16mm film, which was running at 16 frames a
second. He escaped by parachute. A few years later he died, doing a
similar test.
My point is this: If you find flutter you may not have time to arrest
it and you may not live to report it, especially if you aren't equipped
to escape what's left of the airplane. I'd leave it to people who are
paid to look for it.
George
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: steve
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Pirep three:
Just got in from a three hour flight my my 601XL.
Only issue was I had to adjust the fuel cap because it leaked at
130MPH.
I tried my best to induce aileron flutter.
Tried it at many speeds and NOTHING.
Nothing but a stable aileron.
I tried tapping on the stick to get a reaction from the control. I
watch the ailerons extreamly close. Nothing....
My cables were check last night and were 36 pounds.
Steve Weston
Test Pilot
N 9554 Z
Zenith 601 XL
6.5 hours and having fun, but also watching out the canopy....
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Gower
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Hello Larry,
Congratulations! Poeple thinking like you, are the only
ones that can preserve freedom of flying (Worldwide). Self responsible
people, is what is needed.
All the others will get in the next future, the little
freedom that the lawyers and some goverment hot shots will left to
them... Univeral History will not let me lie.
There are several fiction films of overegulated "nations of
the future" that might make all of Think.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Do not archive
--- On Tue, 4/21/09, lwhitlow <ldwhitlow@comcast.net> wrote:
From: lwhitlow <ldwhitlow@comcast.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 11:21 PM
<ldwhitlow@comcast.net>
I am astounded with all of the nonsense that has cropped up on this list
over
the 601XL issues.
I cannot believe that adults, when faced with a challenging issue,
choose to
resort to the hysteria, name calling, snippy remarks and personal
attacks, that
I have had to wade through here.
For someone to, in written form, attack a young girl is just so
unspeakably
wrong. Please note that among all of the contributions she has made to
this list
SHE ALSO SHARES THE JOY OF FLIGHT!
Whoever you are sir, you have earned a level of shame that I can only
imagine.
The honorable man would never show his face here again.
This issue will not be solved by making the Zenith staff or the Heintz
family
the target of anger. We need communication and discussion. The
encounter that
someone had with the Heintz family at Sun and Fun just puts us further
away from
a solution. Why would anyone at Zenith want to talk to anyone who has
approached
them in that manner?
I have just as much at stake here as the next fellow. I've got more than
$55,000 invested in my 601XL and am only a few months away from being
ready for
inspection. All of this noise and hysteria is doing far more damage to
the
reputation of the airplane than the NTSB letter.
I want to fly safe. If there is an issue with the 601XL then I want to
fix it.
The Heintz family is the obvious choice to design and issue a remedy if
a
problem is found, but they are not the only source. Grab a book on
theory and
find the answer yourself. Discuss the problem with other aircraft
builders and
adapt another aircraft's solution to your own.
PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY Take some.
Remember this is an EXPERIMENTAL AMATEUR BUILT AIRCRAFT. A large number
of them
have been designed and built by people with no formal aircraft design
experience. If you feel that the design is deficient then take the
responsibility to do something about it. If you don't feel comfortable
about doing that, then I respectfully submit that you should reconsider
your
decision to build an experimental aircraft.
If it is your choice to wait until a fix is issued, what if the
additional
engineering Zenith is undertaking shows none is necessary???
What will you do????
The NTSB has made errors in the past. They might just be erring on the
side of
caution here. Quite simply if you don't trust the machine don't fly it.
You the builder / pilot bear the final responsibility.
For those of you who own a factory SLSA version, I do feel for you, as
your
options are limited by the rules and regs. We the builders have more
options
and we should use them more wisely so we can get this monkey off of the
fleet's back and move on.
I think that since a governmental agency has referenced results from an
engineering report produced by the ZBAG group, If the ZBAG group truly
has the
best interests of the airplane at heart, they should release the results
of the
report referenced by the NTSB. That way the data collected by Zenith in
this
round of testing could be compared to the ZBAG results and we could get
some
closure to this issue.
And by all means whoever filed the FOIA request with the NTSB, please
keep us
informed as to its status.
Larry Whitlow
Zenith 601XL N69102 (Reserved)
Jabiru 3300
Flying later this summer COUNT ON IT!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240621#240621
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 24
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| Subject: | Apology needed here |
All Earlier in my Get a Grip post I wrote
> "For someone to, in written form, attack a young girl is just so unspeakably
wrong. Please note that among all of the contributions she has made to this list
SHE ALSO SHARES THE JOY OF FLIGHT!
>
> Whoever you are sir, you have earned a level of shame that I can only imagine.
The honorable man would never show his face here again."
Terry Phillips wrote me a note earlier today and he included the message that caused
such bad feelings. I read it and realized that I was wrong to write the
shame remarks quoted above.
As I shared with Terry I can read his note to Sabrina and believe he meant no
ill will, I also noted to him that I could understand why Sabrina and her parents
might have taken issue with it.
I extend an apology to Terry.
And for all of us a reminder, We need to make sure we protect a resource like Sabrina.
We have few younger members of our hobby and we have even fewer girls.
These youngsters are the future of the hobby and the pastime we all love. We
Need her here for her fresh eyes perspective. Lets just all take care here
Larry Whitlow
601XL N69102 (reserved)
Jab 3300
Flying by summer Count ON IT!!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240833#240833
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions |
to the NTSB.
Paul,
I think one of the issues here is that the NTSB report appears to be
internally inconsistent. Regardless of their political or other
authority, this undermines their credibility, at least in regards to
this specific issue. In particular, any engineer examining the issue
is going to pick up on this immediately and discount such flawed
logic. Regardless of the correctness of their conclusions (and I make
no effort to support or dispute them) they just plain blew this report.
Now, you may respect the organization enough to accept their
conclusions regardless of the logic. Personally, I was very
disappointed in the sloppiness of this work and I'm very glad other
organizations/people are looking at this problem and are not relaying
on such a flawed report to make life and death engineering changes.
I'm sure Zen* could design a perfectly adequate mass balancer in a
matter of days. It's not so clear that it would actually solve
anything other quieting some critics.
Ron
XL wings
do not archive
On Apr 22, 2009, at 8:23 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
>
> Hi Jay,
>
> I believe your comments are quite valid and interesting so I will
> try to continue the discussion down your path. I have decided the
> flaming is just irritating and not worth reply.
>
> I will try again to deal with the engineering vs. political issue
> here.
>
> There are definite engineering questions about the quality of the
> Zodiac XL design. So far as I know there have been exactly zero
> reasonable answers to most or all of them. The exception to this in
> my mind is the new issue raised by the NTSB report about the stick
> gradient. That one seems to be a very simple engineering flaw in
> the design. I personally don't know that it is true or false, but
> it should be nearly child's play to confirm it and design a fix -
> compared to the other issues at hand. I believe Matthew would agree
> that there is no real engineering confirmation of most of the issues
> (the stick one is brand new, while the accidents have been going on
> over years). He has said many times in my presence that the
> engineering report he expects soon is needed for him to believe
> there is a problem in the design.
>
> This is an entirely different question than the NTSB "Authority" in
> this matter. My understanding (subject to more correction if
> needed) is that their role is in accident analysis which is not even
> close to engineering design analysis. The two are completely
> different efforts done with different data and different thinking.
> Their conclusion which seems completely clear to me is that the XL
> needs aileron balancing. I merely accept their conclusion because
> they made it. I don't know if it is right or not from an
> engineering analysis point of view, but I don't think they or the
> FAA or I care one iota if the engineering analysis agrees with the
> NTSB ruling or not. They are just different issues.
>
> If everyone could just agree that these are separate issues, then
> the whole mess could be cleaned up very quickly.
>
> I see the design process as disconnected from the accident analysis
> process. If it is needed to implement a design change, then it
> doesn't really matter why the change is needed to do a professional
> job of designing the change. I know this sounds crazy, but please
> give me a little respect here. I spent a career doing just this
> sort of thing in the electronics and communication industry. I
> really do know what I am saying here is rational even if the whole
> group of non-engineers in the group doesn't get it or disagrees.
>
> I am out of time for now, so please forgive me if I missed an
> important point or two. The restaurants here in Florida are getting
> close to closing time and I want my dinner.
>
> Paul
> XL grounded
> do not archive
>> =============================================
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions |
to the NTSB.
Hi Paul,
On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:03 PM, Ronald Steele <rsteele@rjsit.com> wrote:
> I think one of the issues here is that the NTSB report appears to be
> internally inconsistent.
In the spirit of soliciting information rather than challenging your
assertion: I'm sure you've come to this conclusion carefully. Since
you seem to have read it closely and since it's important to have
several eyes on something to pick it apart, could you list exactly
which items you find inconsistent, with page numbers and stuff?
Ihab
--
Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions |
to the NTSB.
Hi Ron,
I didn't see any inconsistency or contradiction in the NTSB report.
I have heard many comments about the board ruling being inconsistent
with investigation reports on some points. This may seem like a
contradiction because the investigators are called NTSB and the board
has the same letters. It is my understanding that the same 4 letters
refer to both the 3 person (?) board and the large organization of
workers in that agency. When I see an NTSB investigation report I
consider that the output of a relatively low level worker in the
organization. When I see a ruling letter like the one released last
week I consider that the "Decision" of the board that is actually the
3 very high level "Commissioners" that are the actual NTS Board. So
if this is the kind of inconsistency you refer to than I think it can
be written off to language clarity issues rather than reasoning issues.
I am happy to admit that federal and other government bureaucracy and
its associated language issues are not clear to anyone who hasn't
really been in the middle of it for a long time. I spent 8 years on
active duty in the USAF where these same sort of issues were daily
problems. I don't claim expertise in understanding the bureaucrats,
but I do have some experience with the language.
Paul
XL grounded
do not archive
At 06:03 PM 4/22/2009, you wrote:
>Paul,
>
>I think one of the issues here is that the NTSB report appears to be
>internally inconsistent. Regardless of their political or other
>authority, this undermines their credibility, at least in regards to
>this specific issue. In particular, any engineer examining the issue
>is going to pick up on this immediately and discount such flawed
>logic. Regardless of the correctness of their conclusions (and I make
>no effort to support or dispute them) they just plain blew this report.
>
>Now, you may respect the organization enough to accept their
>conclusions regardless of the logic. Personally, I was very
>disappointed in the sloppiness of this work and I'm very glad other
>organizations/people are looking at this problem and are not relaying
>on such a flawed report to make life and death engineering changes.
>I'm sure Zen* could design a perfectly adequate mass balancer in a
>matter of days. It's not so clear that it would actually solve
>anything other quieting some critics.
>
>Ron
>XL wings
>do not archive
Message 28
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| Subject: | Lets all get a grip here........ |
I think I just crapped my pants on that last video..
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Not sure who you were replying to, but tempting the beast might not be the
best idea. I know little about aerodynamic flutter but the videos available
make me think that if it strikes, you are lucky if you have time to correct.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTFZNrTYp3k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU7c0XgfqKE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D7YCCLGu5Y
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger <mailto:hills@sunflower.com> & Lina Hill
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 7:43 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
Steve
Are you suggesting we all wear parachutes until this thing gets figured out?
Roger
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions |
to the NTSB.
Oops, sorry, I should have said --
On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:28 PM, <ihab.awad@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Paul,
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:03 PM, Ronald Steele <rsteele@rjsit.com> wrote:
>> ...
"Hi Ron" instead of "Hi Paul". :)
Ihab
do not archive
--
Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions |
to the NTSB.
A. List a bunch of crashes with no known causes.
B. Tell us how terrible flutter is
C. Tell us that it's important to keep the cables tensioned to avoid
flutter
D. Tell us that's not good enough solution to avoid flutter.
E. Ground fleet.
Notice there is no connection between A and anything else.
This is post/ad-hoc reasoning.
Plus, the NTSB must be aware of further engineering testing taking
place on the design. Putting out a report like this when other real
data will be available shortly raises my eyebrows. And, this further
testing may actually tie all these pieces together.
I want this problem fixed as bad as anyone else.
I also think this report is a sloppy, poorly reasoned waste of tax
dollars.
Is flutter the problem? As the report states there is circumstantial
evidence. I don't pretend to know, and based on this report any
engineer worth his education wouldn't accept it as a statement of fact
either.
You may posit that circumstantial evidence is enough to ground the
fleet. Obviously others disagree. I'm not flying yet (or any time
soon) so my horse really isn't in that race. But I will say this.
Making any engineering changes based on such a report is foolhardy.
You could as easily give people false confidence in an otherwise
flawed design as actually fix the problem.
I'm not making any judgement about anybody's decision to fly or not.
That's personal. I do think the Heintz's response is reasonable and
criticizing the way they are handling this off the mark.
That's my $.02 worth - and it's all your getting :-)
Ron
do not archive
On Apr 22, 2009, at 9:28 PM, ihab.awad@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:03 PM, Ronald Steele <rsteele@rjsit.com>
> wrote:
>> I think one of the issues here is that the NTSB report appears to be
>> internally inconsistent.
>
> In the spirit of soliciting information rather than challenging your
> assertion: I'm sure you've come to this conclusion carefully. Since
> you seem to have read it closely and since it's important to have
> several eyes on something to pick it apart, could you list exactly
> which items you find inconsistent, with page numbers and stuff?
>
> Ihab
>
> --
> Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Different Strokes for Different Folks. |
First let me apologize to Jay for not addressing one of his big
points when I was more interested in going to dinner.
The point is about why it is reasonable for each of us to reach
different decisions given the same set of data. The reason is we are
actually facing different sets of issues even though our planes look the same.
For a S-LSA owner, the decision of whether to fly or ground your
plane is based solely on the design and quality of the factory work
and the NTSB finding. For a kit or scratch builder there are
additional issues.
A builder, like me, has to consider the risk associated with flying
an otherwise unproven plane that was built by an amateur (me) to the
best of his ability. That could produce a really nice airplane or a
death trap. These variations are without even considering the
engineering issues being so heavily discussed these days. In essence
they are about the actual quality of the individual builder's work.
If my plane were not grounded, I would be taking it in its maiden
flight this week or next. Even without the whole NTSB/Zen* mess I
would be doing the most dangerous thing I have ever done in my life
when I take that plane in the air for the first time. S-LSA owners
never face this sort of risk. Their planes are built by
professionals, tested by factory test pilots and delivered with some
amount of dual instruction to help the new owner do a nice
comfortable job of transitioning to flying his new plane which has
already been proven to be airworthy.
Restated in neat sounding technological jargon: The risk profile for
my plane's next flight is considerably higher than the next flight
for Juan or Jay. This is true not matter what you might think of the
NTSB and their finding.
If you look at it from my point of view, the risk for my first flight
is very close to unbearable. I have decided that after 4 years of
building my plane it is going to be me at the controls for its first
flight. That adds another whole area of risk for me because I am
only marginally qualified to perform such a risky flight in the first
place. When you add the new cloud of the NTSB ruling to my huge pile
of risk it pushes me over the edge and I MUST ground my plane.
I can easily see that the total risk presented to Jay and Juan is
nearly trivial compared to mine. It seems quite reasonable for them
to continue flying the same plane that has been working just fine for
them up to now. Given their circumstances I might make the same decision.
I hope this philosophical presentation helps us understand that
indeed we are not all in the same boat.
Paul
XL grounded
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Lets all get a grip here........ |
Sincerely I dont know, but will like to know,- saw that cartoon lots of t
imes as a kid (translated to spanish, of course).
-
Saludos
Gary Gower
do not archive.
--- On Wed, 4/22/09, jaybannist@cs.com <jaybannist@cs.com> wrote:
From: jaybannist@cs.com <jaybannist@cs.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
I think I saw this one when it first came out. Bet a lot of you don't know
what the "4F" on Bugs' heart means or what an "A" ration sticker is about.
Do not archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Roskind <frankroskind@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sent: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 3:14 pm
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Lets all get a grip here........
#yiv427066813 #AOLMsgPart_2_f5b4e2fa-c065-4dbe-a20a-4ae3d508887a .hmmessage
P{margin:0px;padding:0px;}#yiv427066813 #AOLMsgPart_2_f5b4e2fa-c065-4dbe-a
20a-4ae3d508887a body.hmmessage{font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}
I think I found the real cause of the inflight breakups-gremlins: http://ww
w.youtube.com/watch?v=D1xqrdtJs8w
Do not archive
Rediscover Hotmail=AE: Get quick friend updates right in your inbox. Check
it out.
& Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
ator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions |
to...
The problem with zbaggers is that even though they have hired a
"professional engineer" they still keep spouting hearsay and inuendo which is
just
clouding any issues that Zenith aircraft MAY or may not have. As I have said
before, if you "know " so much about what is wrong with the 601 why do you
not design your own airplanes and leave Zenith aircraft to those of us who
are comfortable with the designs of a person of the stature and experience
of Chris Heintz.
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 4/22/2009 10:49:50 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
jmaynard@conmicro.com writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 12:13:38AM -0400, JohnDRead@aol.com wrote:
> Can some body tell me what a ZBAG is? Is it some foreign group who do
not
> like Zenith aircraft or what?
The Zenith Builders Analysis Group is a group of concerned Zodiac builders,
owners, and pilots who banded together to commission an independent
engineering study of the Zodiac. It was formed in response to what was seen
at the time as Zenair's reluctance to do full engineering studies of the
Zodiac's structure, both static and dynamic.
I am a contributing member of ZBAG. I can assure you that I love my Zodiac,
and would like nothing more than to see the cloud over it removed -
whatever
that takes.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
**************Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and Desktops!
eclick.net%2Fclk%3B214133440%3B36002254%3Bj)
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions |
to the NTSB.
Welcome back-Paul,
-
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Do not archive.
--- On Wed, 4/22/09, Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net> wrote:
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan rea
ctions to the NTSB.
Hi Jay,
I believe your comments are quite valid and interesting so I will try to
continue the discussion down your path. I have decided the flaming is just
irritating and not worth reply.
I will try again to deal with the engineering vs. political issue here.
There are definite engineering questions about the quality of the Zodiac XL
design. So far as I know there have been exactly zero reasonable answers t
o
most or all of them. The exception to this in my mind is the new issue rai
sed
by the NTSB report about the stick gradient. That one seems to be a very s
imple
engineering flaw in the design. I personally don't know that it is true or
false, but it should be nearly child's play to confirm it and design a fix
- compared to the other issues at hand. I believe Matthew would agree that
there is no real engineering confirmation of most of the issues (the stick
one
is brand new, while the accidents have been going on over years). He has s
aid
many times in my presence that the engineering report he expects soon is ne
eded
for him to believe there is a problem in the design.
This is an entirely different question than the NTSB "Authority" in
this matter. My understanding (subject to more correction if needed) is th
at
their role is in accident analysis which is not even close to engineering d
esign
analysis. The two are completely different efforts done with different dat
a and
different thinking. Their conclusion which seems completely clear to me is
that
the XL needs aileron balancing. I merely accept their conclusion because t
hey
made it. I don't know if it is right or not from an engineering analysis
point of view, but I don't think they or the FAA or I care one iota if the
engineering analysis agrees with the NTSB ruling or not. They are just
different issues.
If everyone could just agree that these are separate issues, then the whole
mess could be cleaned up very quickly.
I see the design process as disconnected from the accident analysis process
.
If it is needed to implement a design change, then it doesn't really matter
why the change is needed to do a professional job of designing the change.
I
know this sounds crazy, but please give me a little respect here. I spent
a
career doing just this sort of thing in the electronics and communication
industry. I really do know what I am saying here is rational even if the w
hole
group of non-engineers in the group doesn't get it or disagrees.
I am out of time for now, so please forgive me if I missed an important poi
nt
or two. The restaurants here in Florida are getting close to closing time
and I
want my dinner.
Paul
XL grounded
do not archive
> ========================
=====================
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