Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:37 AM - Re: Re: Putting Flutter Issue to Bed (Ken Lilja)
2. 06:09 AM - cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. (601corvair)
3. 06:37 AM - Re: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. (Juan Vega)
4. 08:03 AM - Re: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. (Tim Juhl)
5. 09:03 AM - Re: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. (Gig Giacona)
6. 09:51 AM - Re: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. (Bill Naumuk)
7. 03:09 PM - Jabiru starter (jaybannist@cs.com)
8. 03:18 PM - Re: Jabiru starter (SABorns@aol.com)
9. 03:33 PM - Re: Jabiru starter (Craig Payne)
10. 03:33 PM - Re: Jabiru starter (jaybannist@cs.com)
11. 03:43 PM - Re: Jabiru starter (SABorns@aol.com)
12. 03:50 PM - Re: Jabiru starter (Craig Payne)
13. 04:19 PM - Re: Jabiru starter (jaybannist@cs.com)
14. 04:30 PM - Re: Jabiru starter (jaybannist@cs.com)
15. 05:01 PM - Re: Jabiru starter (Craig Payne)
16. 05:05 PM - Re: Jabiru starter (Paul Mulwitz)
17. 05:18 PM - Re: Jabiru starter (jaybannist@cs.com)
18. 05:21 PM - Re: Jabiru starter (ronlee)
19. 08:28 PM - A fantastic flight today (cookwithgas)
20. 11:15 PM - Re: A fantastic flight today (MikeinPE)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Putting Flutter Issue to Bed |
They did some modifications after the first one but that did not do the
job. Cessna's attitude at this point is along the lines of: My God, we
are going to beat this problem or else!
Both had a ballistic chute. The first did not deploy and the pilot
bailed out. The second deployed as advertised.
Ken
Dave wrote:
>
> I didn't know that Ken, did Cessna address the issue?
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Lilja"
> <planes_by_ken@bellsouth.net>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 9:41 AM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Putting Flutter Issue to Bed
>
>
>> <planes_by_ken@bellsouth.net>
>>
>> 2 Cessna Skycatcher prototypes have spun in. So much for certified
>> manufactures knowing what they are doing.
>> The NTSB has been recommending inerting the fuel tanks in airliners
>> since flight 800 or before. They are finally doing it. Cost impact
>> trumped safety. NTSB can only recommend changes, not require them.
>> In a lot of incidents the cause is never determined. We will never
>> know for sure.
>> Ken Lilja
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| Subject: | cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. |
I found this on Barnstormers.=C2- This guy is in our local EAA and has bu
ilt a few planes.=C2- I've not talked to him, but I think he Aged out of
the project.
-----------------------------------------------
601 XL =A2 $5,900 =A2 FOR IMMEDIATE SALE =A2 =0AComplete
Kit. Fuselage on gear. Tails comp. Original kit price $13,500=0A =A2
Contact Mort Altman, Owner - located Apex, NC USA=0A=A2 Telephone: 9
19-387-1895=0A =A2 Posted May 18, 2009=0A =0A=0A=0A
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| Subject: | Re: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. |
that is the one with the subaru engine right? it looks that its tough to sell
the planes with a converstion engine.
-----Original Message-----
>From: 601corvair <airvair601@yahoo.com>
>Sent: Jun 4, 2009 8:56 AM
>To: Zenith list <Zenith-List@matronics.com>
>Subject: Zenith-List: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet.
>
>I found this on Barnstormers. This guy is in our local EAA and has built a few
planes. I've not talked to him, but I think he Aged out of the project.
>-----------------------------------------------
>601 XL $5,900 FOR IMMEDIATE SALE
>Complete Kit. Fuselage on gear. Tails comp. Original kit price $13,500
> Contact Mort Altman, Owner - located Apex, NC USA
> Telephone: 919-387-1895
> Posted May 18, 2009
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. |
Folded? Do you mean built?
--------
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Working on fuselage
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246774#246774
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| Subject: | Re: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. |
Tim Juhl wrote:
> Folded? Do you mean built?
I noticed that incredibly poor choice of words too.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246786#246786
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| Subject: | Re: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. |
If that comes with an engine for $5900, you can throw the engine out and
still make out like a bandit! Why do these deals always come up when I'm in
the home stretch?
Bill
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Juan Vega" <amyvega2005@earthlink.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet.
>
> that is the one with the subaru engine right? it looks that its tough to
> sell the planes with a converstion engine.
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: 601corvair <airvair601@yahoo.com>
>>Sent: Jun 4, 2009 8:56 AM
>>To: Zenith list <Zenith-List@matronics.com>
>>Subject: Zenith-List: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet.
>>
>>I found this on Barnstormers. This guy is in our local EAA and has built a
>>few planes. I've not talked to him, but I think he Aged out of the
>>project.
>>-----------------------------------------------
>>601 XL $5,900 FOR IMMEDIATE SALE
>>Complete Kit. Fuselage on gear. Tails comp. Original kit price $13,500
>> Contact Mort Altman, Owner - located Apex, NC USA
>> Telephone: 919-387-1895
>> Posted May 18, 2009
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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I am helping a friend put
together a power schematic for a Jabiru 3300 for his 601XL.? I have seen several
sample schematics that have both a starter solenoid and a starter
contactor.? Is this really what is required and if so why ?? Is a
starter contactor any different than a battery contactor?
I asked this question on the Aeroelectric forum and got no response.
Jay Bannister________________________________________________________________________
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru starter |
Master solenoids are rated for continuous operation. I've always used both
a master and starter solenoid. That is standard practice in certified
aircraft. Aircraft Spruce has on for a reasonable price (p/n 11-03161). That is
what I'm using on my 701.
Steven Bornstein K8IDN
475 E. North Broadway
Columbus, Ohio 43214
614 263-5819
**************Limited Time Offers: Save big on popular laptops at Dell
%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215221161%3B37268813%3By)
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I'm not certain if we are talking about the same thing. But in my (unflown)
design I have a master contactor and a starter contactor. The starter
contactor is wired through the master contactor so that if the starter
contactor gets stuck (and they do) I can stop the engine from cranking by
killing the master. This is lifted from one of the sample designs in the
Aeroelectric book. Some starter contactors actually have a separate lug that
can feed a light on the panel. If you release the start switch and the light
stays on then the starter contactor is stuck (the contacts are probably
welded shut).
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
jaybannist@cs.com
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 4:06 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Jabiru starter
I am helping a friend put together a power schematic for a Jabiru 3300 for
his 601XL. I have seen several sample schematics that have both a starter
solenoid and a starter contactor. Is this really what is required and if so
why ? Is a starter contactor any different than a battery contactor?
I asked this question on the Aeroelectric forum and got no response.
Jay Bannister
_____
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru starter |
Steven,
The sample schematics I am talking about have a battery contactor, a starter contactor
and a starter solenoid. ? ? Is that what is required ?? I ask, not knowing
much about the Jabiru setup, because my 601XL with a Corvair only has a battery
cantactor and a starter solenoid, no starter contactor.
Jay Bannister.
-----Original Message-----
From: SABorns@aol.com
Master solenoids are rated for continuous operation. I've always used both
a master and starter solenoid. That is standard practice in certified
aircraft.?Aircraft Spruce has on for a reasonable price (p/n 11-03161).
That is what I'm using on my 701.
?
Steven
Bornstein K8IDN
________________________________________________________________________
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru starter |
Jay,
Isn't a starter solenoid and starter contactor the same thing? I wired
mine so that 12v from the battery goes to the master solenoid to the starter
solenoid. Your 12v for panel etc. is taken from the switched side of the
master solenoid.
Steve
Steven Bornstein K8IDN
475 E. North Broadway
Columbus, Ohio 43214
614 263-5819
**************Limited Time Offers: Save big on popular laptops at Dell
%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215221161%3B37268813%3By)
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The Jabiru engine installation manual doesn't require this. In fact their
sample wiring diagram doesn't even show a master contactor that I can see.
See page 15 of this manual:
http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/manuals/new%20stuff/3300%20Install.pdf
The diagrams you are looking at may be showing the large electromagnet on
the starter that moves the fork to engage the small drive gear with the ring
gear. That is a "solenoid" too.
Do you have a link to what you are looking at?
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
jaybannist@cs.com
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru starter
Steven,
The sample schematics I am talking about have a battery contactor, a starter
contactor and a starter solenoid. Is that what is required ? I ask, not
knowing much about the Jabiru setup, because my 601XL with a Corvair only
has a battery cantactor and a starter solenoid, no starter contactor.
Jay Bannister.
-----Original Message-----
From: SABorns@aol.com
Master solenoids are rated for continuous operation. I've always used both a
master and starter solenoid. That is standard practice in certified
aircraft. Aircraft Spruce has on for a reasonable price (p/n 11-03161). That
is what I'm using on my 701.
Steven Bornstein K8IDN
_____
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru starter |
Steve,
That's my take, but the sample schematicks I have seen show both a starter solenoid
and a starter contactor. I don't know why and that is the reason for the
confusion.
Jay?
-----Original Message-----
From: SABorns@aol.com
Jay,
Isn't a starter solenoid and starter contactor the same thing?? I
wired mine so that 12v from the battery goes to the master solenoid to the
starter solenoid. Your 12v for panel etc. is taken from the switched side of the
master solenoid.
Steve
?
Steven
Bornstein K8IDN
________________________________________________________________________
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru starter |
Craig,
On the wiring schematic, I only see a starter solenoid and no starter cont
actor.=C2- Is the starter solenoid on the starter or is it a totally sep
arate piece of equipment. ?
The sample diagrams I am looking at are in the Aeroelectric Connection man
ual.
Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>
The Jabiru engine installation manual doesn=99t require this.
In fact their sample wiring diagram doesn=99t even show a master con
tactor
that I can see. See page 15 of this manual:
=C2-
http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/manuals/new%20stuff/3300%20Install.pdf
=C2-
The diagrams you are looking at may be showing the large
electromagnet on the starter that moves the fork to engage the small drive
gear
with the ring gear. That is a =9Csolenoid=9D too.
=C2-
Do you have a link to what you are looking at?
=C2-
-- Craig
=C2-
________________________________________________________________________
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The Jabiru starter =9Cwhats-it=9D is a separate relay. It is
supposed to be in the crate with the engine (at least mine was). This
document contains a picture:
<http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/StarterSolenoidRegulator.PDF>
http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/StarterSolenoidRegulator.PDF
What is the name of the diagram in appendix Z that you are looking at?
You can=99t go by the diagram number as those change from edition
to addition.
I=99m looking at figure Z-20 in revision 12: =9CSmall Jabiru
System=9D. The part labeled =9CStarter contactor=9D
is the external relay that is only good for intermittent use. The small
circle labeled =9CSOL.=9D on top of the larger
=9Cstarter=9D circle is the electromagnet that mechanically
engages the gears. It is integral to the starter
In some automotive starter motors the electromagnet on the starter
performs both functions: moving contacts to switch the heavy cranking
current and mechanically moving the fork to engage the gears. There will
have two terminals: a big stud for the heavy lead from the battery and a
smaller stud for the lead from the ignition key. The Jabiru starter is
not like this, it has a single heavy lead. So you need an external
relay. You can call it a contactor or a solenoid but it is still
external. Here is a doc with a picture of the Jabiru starter:
<http://www.jabiru.net.au/Service%20Bulletins/Engine%20files/Starter%20Mo
tor%20earth%20Cable_JSL005-1.pdf>
http://www.jabiru.net.au/Service%20Bulletins/Engine%20files/Starter%20Mot
or%20earth%20Cable_JSL005-1.pdf
I don=99t know what the starter on your Corvair looks like but
William=99s current documentation shows a heavy stud and a flat
push=on connector. So the electrical switching of the heavy lead is
integral to the starter and no external relay is needed. See here:
<http://www.flycorvair.com/starterkit.html>
http://www.flycorvair.com/starterkit.html
Hope this helps.
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
jaybannist@cs.com
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru starter
Craig,
On the wiring schematic, I only see a starter solenoid and no starter
contactor. Is the starter solenoid on the starter or is it a totally
separate piece of equipment. ?
The sample diagrams I am looking at are in the Aeroelectric Connection
manual.
Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>
The Jabiru engine installation manual doesn=99t require this. In
fact their sample wiring diagram doesn=99t even show a master
contactor that I can see. See page 15 of this manual:
<http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/manuals/new%20stuff/3300%20Install.pd
f>
http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/manuals/new%20stuff/3300%20Install.pdf
The diagrams you are looking at may be showing the large electromagnet
on the starter that moves the fork to engage the small drive gear with
the ring gear. That is a =9Csolenoid=9D too.
Do you have a link to what you are looking at?
-- Craig
_____
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru starter |
Hi Jay,
I wonder if you are getting confused by the two different circuits on
a starter solenoid. I don't know the formal terms, but I will call
them the primary and secondary circuits. Both circuits start at the
positive battery terminal and end at the negative battery terminal or "Ground".
The primary circuit is used to activate the starter solenoid. It is
a low current circuit - perhaps as high as 10 amps. It goes from the
battery to the master contactor (if one is installed) and then to the
starter switch, starter solenoid, and ground. This circuit activates
the starter solenoid when the starter button is pushed. Normal sized
wires are used here. (This circuit should also have a clamping diode
between the starter solenoid positive terminal and ground to prevent
high voltage spikes when the starter switch is opened.)
The secondary circuit goes directly from the battery to the starter
solenoid, the starter motor and ground. This is the circuit that
provides energy to the starter motor. It is the highest current
circuit in the plane - perhaps over 100 amps. I suppose this could
go through the battery contactor or bypass it - it doesn't seem to
make much difference which way it is done. This is the circuit that
has the big fat copper wires all the way from the battery to ground.
In this application on my plane (and most vehicles I have ever seen)
the battery contactor (if installed) is not really used to control
the high current path through the starter solenoid. Rather it is
used to control the primary circuit for the solenoid which goes
through the starter button or key switch.
I hope this helps.
Best regards,
Paul
XL grounded
>On the wiring schematic, I only see a starter solenoid and no
>starter contactor. Is the starter solenoid on the starter or is it
>a totally separate piece of equipment. ?
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru starter |
Craig,
Yes, that really helps.=C2- I've got a clear picture now.=C2- That Z
diagram is what confused me.
Thanks - Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com>
Sent: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 6:54 pm
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Jabiru starter
The Jabiru starter =9Cwhats-it=9D is a separate relay. It is
supposed to be in the crate with the engine (at least mine was). This docu
ment
contains a picture:
=C2-
http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/StarterSolenoidRegulator.PDF
=C2-
What is the name of the diagram in appendix Z that you are
looking at? You can=99t go by the diagram number as those change fro
m edition to
addition.
=C2-
I=99m looking at figure Z-20 in revision 12: =9CSmall Jabiru
System=9D.
=C2-The part labeled =9CStarter contactor=9D is the external
relay that is only good
for intermittent use. The small circle labeled =9CSOL.=9D on
top of the larger =9Cstarter=9D
circle is the electromagnet that mechanically engages the gears. It is int
egral
to the starter
=C2-
In some automotive starter motors the electromagnet on the
starter performs both functions: moving contacts to switch the heavy crank
ing
current and mechanically moving the fork to engage the gears. There will
have
two terminals: a big stud for the heavy lead from the battery and a smalle
r
stud for the lead from the ignition20key. The Jabiru starter is not like
this,
it has a single heavy lead. So you need an external relay. You can call it
a
contactor or a solenoid but it is still external. Here is a doc with a pic
ture
of the Jabiru starter:
=C2-
http://www.jabiru.net.au/Service%20Bulletins/Engine%20files/Starter%20Moto
r%20earth%20Cable_JSL005-1.pdf
=C2-
I don=99t know what the starter on your Corvair looks like but
William=99s current documentation shows a heavy stud and a flat push
=on
connector. So the electrical switching of the heavy lead is integral to th
e
starter and no external relay is needed. See here:
=C2-
http://www.flycorvair.com/starterkit.html
=C2-
Hope this helps.
=C2-
-- Craig
=C2-
________________________________________________________________________
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru starter |
A master contactor can be shut of if an emergency landing is eminent. This shuts
the power off at the battery so an electrical fire is dramatically reduced if
a crash occurs. The master contactor should be located as near the battery as
possible. With the master off there is also no chance of small electrical draws
running down the battery while the plane is idle. Also a nice feature of the
master contactor is if one forgets to shut something off it will go off when
you shut off the master contractor. I have one on my 701 and must say, I wouldn't
be without it.
--------
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246877#246877
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| Subject: | A fantastic flight today |
Guys:
Today I took a long lunch and met Jay Bannister at my hangar to go for a short
flight. Jay is familiar with the DFW area and I was a little nervous flying so
close to class Bravo airspace inside the Mode C veil. Jay talked me through
some of the procedures and I contacted the tower and away we went. We flew around
some huge towers at Cedar Hill, then over to Midway Regional for a touch
and go, then back over to Grand Prairie with another chat with the tower. This
was a thrill for me and much different from flying the vacant skies over the
corn fields of Wahoo, Nebraska.
It was great to meet Jay who is a super guy and it was real nice of him to help
ease my mind in the potentially busy DFW area. The airplane is making me so
proud performing great after exceeding 131 hours today. It was a little choppy
in the heat of the day, but the airplane is so sturdy and solid it was no problem
at all.
Have a great day,
Scott in Texas
601XL/Corvair
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246911#246911
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| Subject: | Re: A fantastic flight today |
Thank you Scott. This is the kind of messages that we need here. I've just started
my project and know that it will be a few years before I will have the privilege
of flying my 650, but its great knowing that there are many others that
pushed through and made it work is inspiring.
Enjoy the new skies over Texas
Mike van Rensburg
650 Scratchbuilder in South Africa
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246923#246923
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