---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/04/09: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:37 AM - Re: Re: Putting Flutter Issue to Bed (Ken Lilja) 2. 06:09 AM - cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. (601corvair) 3. 06:37 AM - Re: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. (Juan Vega) 4. 08:03 AM - Re: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. (Tim Juhl) 5. 09:03 AM - Re: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. (Gig Giacona) 6. 09:51 AM - Re: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. (Bill Naumuk) 7. 03:09 PM - Jabiru starter (jaybannist@cs.com) 8. 03:18 PM - Re: Jabiru starter (SABorns@aol.com) 9. 03:33 PM - Re: Jabiru starter (Craig Payne) 10. 03:33 PM - Re: Jabiru starter (jaybannist@cs.com) 11. 03:43 PM - Re: Jabiru starter (SABorns@aol.com) 12. 03:50 PM - Re: Jabiru starter (Craig Payne) 13. 04:19 PM - Re: Jabiru starter (jaybannist@cs.com) 14. 04:30 PM - Re: Jabiru starter (jaybannist@cs.com) 15. 05:01 PM - Re: Jabiru starter (Craig Payne) 16. 05:05 PM - Re: Jabiru starter (Paul Mulwitz) 17. 05:18 PM - Re: Jabiru starter (jaybannist@cs.com) 18. 05:21 PM - Re: Jabiru starter (ronlee) 19. 08:28 PM - A fantastic flight today (cookwithgas) 20. 11:15 PM - Re: A fantastic flight today (MikeinPE) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:52 AM PST US From: Ken Lilja Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Putting Flutter Issue to Bed They did some modifications after the first one but that did not do the job. Cessna's attitude at this point is along the lines of: My God, we are going to beat this problem or else! Both had a ballistic chute. The first did not deploy and the pilot bailed out. The second deployed as advertised. Ken Dave wrote: > > I didn't know that Ken, did Cessna address the issue? > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Lilja" > > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 9:41 AM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Putting Flutter Issue to Bed > > >> >> >> 2 Cessna Skycatcher prototypes have spun in. So much for certified >> manufactures knowing what they are doing. >> The NTSB has been recommending inerting the fuel tanks in airliners >> since flight 800 or before. They are finally doing it. Cost impact >> trumped safety. NTSB can only recommend changes, not require them. >> In a lot of incidents the cause is never determined. We will never >> know for sure. >> Ken Lilja ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:52 AM PST US From: 601corvair Subject: Zenith-List: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. I found this on Barnstormers.=C2- This guy is in our local EAA and has bu ilt a few planes.=C2- I've not talked to him, but I think he Aged out of the project. ----------------------------------------------- 601 XL =A2 $5,900 =A2 FOR IMMEDIATE SALE =A2 =0AComplete Kit. Fuselage on gear. Tails comp. Original kit price $13,500=0A =A2 Contact Mort Altman, Owner - located Apex, NC USA=0A=A2 Telephone: 9 19-387-1895=0A =A2 Posted May 18, 2009=0A =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:25 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. that is the one with the subaru engine right? it looks that its tough to sell the planes with a converstion engine. -----Original Message----- >From: 601corvair >Sent: Jun 4, 2009 8:56 AM >To: Zenith list >Subject: Zenith-List: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. > >I found this on Barnstormers. This guy is in our local EAA and has built a few planes. I've not talked to him, but I think he Aged out of the project. >----------------------------------------------- >601 XL $5,900 FOR IMMEDIATE SALE >Complete Kit. Fuselage on gear. Tails comp. Original kit price $13,500 > Contact Mort Altman, Owner - located Apex, NC USA > Telephone: 919-387-1895 > Posted May 18, 2009 > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:12 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. From: "Tim Juhl" Folded? Do you mean built? -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246774#246774 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:51 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. From: "Gig Giacona" Tim Juhl wrote: > Folded? Do you mean built? I noticed that incredibly poor choice of words too. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246786#246786 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:51:45 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. If that comes with an engine for $5900, you can throw the engine out and still make out like a bandit! Why do these deals always come up when I'm in the home stretch? Bill Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Juan Vega" Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 9:32 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. > > that is the one with the subaru engine right? it looks that its tough to > sell the planes with a converstion engine. > > -----Original Message----- >>From: 601corvair >>Sent: Jun 4, 2009 8:56 AM >>To: Zenith list >>Subject: Zenith-List: cheap XL kit...... wings not folded yet. >> >>I found this on Barnstormers. This guy is in our local EAA and has built a >>few planes. I've not talked to him, but I think he Aged out of the >>project. >>----------------------------------------------- >>601 XL $5,900 FOR IMMEDIATE SALE >>Complete Kit. Fuselage on gear. Tails comp. Original kit price $13,500 >> Contact Mort Altman, Owner - located Apex, NC USA >> Telephone: 919-387-1895 >> Posted May 18, 2009 >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:09:33 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Jabiru starter From: jaybannist@cs.com I am helping a friend put together a power schematic for a Jabiru 3300 for his 601XL.? I have seen several sample schematics that have both a starter solenoid and a starter contactor.? Is this really what is required and if so why ?? Is a starter contactor any different than a battery contactor? I asked this question on the Aeroelectric forum and got no response. Jay Bannister________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:18:07 PM PST US From: SABorns@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru starter Master solenoids are rated for continuous operation. I've always used both a master and starter solenoid. That is standard practice in certified aircraft. Aircraft Spruce has on for a reasonable price (p/n 11-03161). That is what I'm using on my 701. Steven Bornstein K8IDN 475 E. North Broadway Columbus, Ohio 43214 614 263-5819 **************Limited Time Offers: Save big on popular laptops at Dell %2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215221161%3B37268813%3By) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:33:33 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Jabiru starter I'm not certain if we are talking about the same thing. But in my (unflown) design I have a master contactor and a starter contactor. The starter contactor is wired through the master contactor so that if the starter contactor gets stuck (and they do) I can stop the engine from cranking by killing the master. This is lifted from one of the sample designs in the Aeroelectric book. Some starter contactors actually have a separate lug that can feed a light on the panel. If you release the start switch and the light stays on then the starter contactor is stuck (the contacts are probably welded shut). -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jaybannist@cs.com Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 4:06 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Jabiru starter I am helping a friend put together a power schematic for a Jabiru 3300 for his 601XL. I have seen several sample schematics that have both a starter solenoid and a starter contactor. Is this really what is required and if so why ? Is a starter contactor any different than a battery contactor? I asked this question on the Aeroelectric forum and got no response. Jay Bannister _____ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:33:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru starter From: jaybannist@cs.com Steven, The sample schematics I am talking about have a battery contactor, a starter contactor and a starter solenoid. ? ? Is that what is required ?? I ask, not knowing much about the Jabiru setup, because my 601XL with a Corvair only has a battery cantactor and a starter solenoid, no starter contactor. Jay Bannister. -----Original Message----- From: SABorns@aol.com Master solenoids are rated for continuous operation. I've always used both a master and starter solenoid. That is standard practice in certified aircraft.?Aircraft Spruce has on for a reasonable price (p/n 11-03161). That is what I'm using on my 701. ? Steven Bornstein K8IDN ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:31 PM PST US From: SABorns@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru starter Jay, Isn't a starter solenoid and starter contactor the same thing? I wired mine so that 12v from the battery goes to the master solenoid to the starter solenoid. Your 12v for panel etc. is taken from the switched side of the master solenoid. Steve Steven Bornstein K8IDN 475 E. North Broadway Columbus, Ohio 43214 614 263-5819 **************Limited Time Offers: Save big on popular laptops at Dell %2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215221161%3B37268813%3By) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:50:32 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Jabiru starter The Jabiru engine installation manual doesn't require this. In fact their sample wiring diagram doesn't even show a master contactor that I can see. See page 15 of this manual: http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/manuals/new%20stuff/3300%20Install.pdf The diagrams you are looking at may be showing the large electromagnet on the starter that moves the fork to engage the small drive gear with the ring gear. That is a "solenoid" too. Do you have a link to what you are looking at? -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jaybannist@cs.com Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 4:32 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru starter Steven, The sample schematics I am talking about have a battery contactor, a starter contactor and a starter solenoid. Is that what is required ? I ask, not knowing much about the Jabiru setup, because my 601XL with a Corvair only has a battery cantactor and a starter solenoid, no starter contactor. Jay Bannister. -----Original Message----- From: SABorns@aol.com Master solenoids are rated for continuous operation. I've always used both a master and starter solenoid. That is standard practice in certified aircraft. Aircraft Spruce has on for a reasonable price (p/n 11-03161). That is what I'm using on my 701. Steven Bornstein K8IDN _____ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:14 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru starter From: jaybannist@cs.com Steve, That's my take, but the sample schematicks I have seen show both a starter solenoid and a starter contactor. I don't know why and that is the reason for the confusion. Jay? -----Original Message----- From: SABorns@aol.com Jay, Isn't a starter solenoid and starter contactor the same thing?? I wired mine so that 12v from the battery goes to the master solenoid to the starter solenoid. Your 12v for panel etc. is taken from the switched side of the master solenoid. Steve ? Steven Bornstein K8IDN ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:30:51 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru starter From: jaybannist@cs.com Craig, On the wiring schematic, I only see a starter solenoid and no starter cont actor.=C2- Is the starter solenoid on the starter or is it a totally sep arate piece of equipment. ? The sample diagrams I am looking at are in the Aeroelectric Connection man ual. Jay -----Original Message----- From: Craig Payne The Jabiru engine installation manual doesn=99t require this. In fact their sample wiring diagram doesn=99t even show a master con tactor that I can see. See page 15 of this manual: =C2- http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/manuals/new%20stuff/3300%20Install.pdf =C2- The diagrams you are looking at may be showing the large electromagnet on the starter that moves the fork to engage the small drive gear with the ring gear. That is a =9Csolenoid=9D too. =C2- Do you have a link to what you are looking at? =C2- -- Craig =C2- ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:08 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Jabiru starter The Jabiru starter =9Cwhats-it=9D is a separate relay. It is supposed to be in the crate with the engine (at least mine was). This document contains a picture: http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/StarterSolenoidRegulator.PDF What is the name of the diagram in appendix Z that you are looking at? You can=99t go by the diagram number as those change from edition to addition. I=99m looking at figure Z-20 in revision 12: =9CSmall Jabiru System=9D. The part labeled =9CStarter contactor=9D is the external relay that is only good for intermittent use. The small circle labeled =9CSOL.=9D on top of the larger =9Cstarter=9D circle is the electromagnet that mechanically engages the gears. It is integral to the starter In some automotive starter motors the electromagnet on the starter performs both functions: moving contacts to switch the heavy cranking current and mechanically moving the fork to engage the gears. There will have two terminals: a big stud for the heavy lead from the battery and a smaller stud for the lead from the ignition key. The Jabiru starter is not like this, it has a single heavy lead. So you need an external relay. You can call it a contactor or a solenoid but it is still external. Here is a doc with a picture of the Jabiru starter: http://www.jabiru.net.au/Service%20Bulletins/Engine%20files/Starter%20Mot or%20earth%20Cable_JSL005-1.pdf I don=99t know what the starter on your Corvair looks like but William=99s current documentation shows a heavy stud and a flat push=on connector. So the electrical switching of the heavy lead is integral to the starter and no external relay is needed. See here: http://www.flycorvair.com/starterkit.html Hope this helps. -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jaybannist@cs.com Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 5:28 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru starter Craig, On the wiring schematic, I only see a starter solenoid and no starter contactor. Is the starter solenoid on the starter or is it a totally separate piece of equipment. ? The sample diagrams I am looking at are in the Aeroelectric Connection manual. Jay -----Original Message----- From: Craig Payne The Jabiru engine installation manual doesn=99t require this. In fact their sample wiring diagram doesn=99t even show a master contactor that I can see. See page 15 of this manual: http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/manuals/new%20stuff/3300%20Install.pdf The diagrams you are looking at may be showing the large electromagnet on the starter that moves the fork to engage the small drive gear with the ring gear. That is a =9Csolenoid=9D too. Do you have a link to what you are looking at? -- Craig _____ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:05:19 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru starter Hi Jay, I wonder if you are getting confused by the two different circuits on a starter solenoid. I don't know the formal terms, but I will call them the primary and secondary circuits. Both circuits start at the positive battery terminal and end at the negative battery terminal or "Ground". The primary circuit is used to activate the starter solenoid. It is a low current circuit - perhaps as high as 10 amps. It goes from the battery to the master contactor (if one is installed) and then to the starter switch, starter solenoid, and ground. This circuit activates the starter solenoid when the starter button is pushed. Normal sized wires are used here. (This circuit should also have a clamping diode between the starter solenoid positive terminal and ground to prevent high voltage spikes when the starter switch is opened.) The secondary circuit goes directly from the battery to the starter solenoid, the starter motor and ground. This is the circuit that provides energy to the starter motor. It is the highest current circuit in the plane - perhaps over 100 amps. I suppose this could go through the battery contactor or bypass it - it doesn't seem to make much difference which way it is done. This is the circuit that has the big fat copper wires all the way from the battery to ground. In this application on my plane (and most vehicles I have ever seen) the battery contactor (if installed) is not really used to control the high current path through the starter solenoid. Rather it is used to control the primary circuit for the solenoid which goes through the starter button or key switch. I hope this helps. Best regards, Paul XL grounded >On the wiring schematic, I only see a starter solenoid and no >starter contactor. Is the starter solenoid on the starter or is it >a totally separate piece of equipment. ? ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:18:32 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru starter From: jaybannist@cs.com Craig, Yes, that really helps.=C2- I've got a clear picture now.=C2- That Z diagram is what confused me. Thanks - Jay -----Original Message----- From: Craig Payne Sent: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 6:54 pm Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Jabiru starter The Jabiru starter =9Cwhats-it=9D is a separate relay. It is supposed to be in the crate with the engine (at least mine was). This docu ment contains a picture: =C2- http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/StarterSolenoidRegulator.PDF =C2- What is the name of the diagram in appendix Z that you are looking at? You can=99t go by the diagram number as those change fro m edition to addition. =C2- I=99m looking at figure Z-20 in revision 12: =9CSmall Jabiru System=9D. =C2-The part labeled =9CStarter contactor=9D is the external relay that is only good for intermittent use. The small circle labeled =9CSOL.=9D on top of the larger =9Cstarter=9D circle is the electromagnet that mechanically engages the gears. It is int egral to the starter =C2- In some automotive starter motors the electromagnet on the starter performs both functions: moving contacts to switch the heavy crank ing current and mechanically moving the fork to engage the gears. There will have two terminals: a big stud for the heavy lead from the battery and a smalle r stud for the lead from the ignition20key. The Jabiru starter is not like this, it has a single heavy lead. So you need an external relay. You can call it a contactor or a solenoid but it is still external. Here is a doc with a pic ture of the Jabiru starter: =C2- http://www.jabiru.net.au/Service%20Bulletins/Engine%20files/Starter%20Moto r%20earth%20Cable_JSL005-1.pdf =C2- I don=99t know what the starter on your Corvair looks like but William=99s current documentation shows a heavy stud and a flat push =on connector. So the electrical switching of the heavy lead is integral to th e starter and no external relay is needed. See here: =C2- http://www.flycorvair.com/starterkit.html =C2- Hope this helps. =C2- -- Craig =C2- ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:44 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Jabiru starter From: "ronlee" A master contactor can be shut of if an emergency landing is eminent. This shuts the power off at the battery so an electrical fire is dramatically reduced if a crash occurs. The master contactor should be located as near the battery as possible. With the master off there is also no chance of small electrical draws running down the battery while the plane is idle. Also a nice feature of the master contactor is if one forgets to shut something off it will go off when you shut off the master contractor. I have one on my 701 and must say, I wouldn't be without it. -------- Ron Lee Tucson, Arizona Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246877#246877 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:20 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: A fantastic flight today From: "cookwithgas" Guys: Today I took a long lunch and met Jay Bannister at my hangar to go for a short flight. Jay is familiar with the DFW area and I was a little nervous flying so close to class Bravo airspace inside the Mode C veil. Jay talked me through some of the procedures and I contacted the tower and away we went. We flew around some huge towers at Cedar Hill, then over to Midway Regional for a touch and go, then back over to Grand Prairie with another chat with the tower. This was a thrill for me and much different from flying the vacant skies over the corn fields of Wahoo, Nebraska. It was great to meet Jay who is a super guy and it was real nice of him to help ease my mind in the potentially busy DFW area. The airplane is making me so proud performing great after exceeding 131 hours today. It was a little choppy in the heat of the day, but the airplane is so sturdy and solid it was no problem at all. Have a great day, Scott in Texas 601XL/Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246911#246911 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:49 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: A fantastic flight today From: "MikeinPE" Thank you Scott. This is the kind of messages that we need here. I've just started my project and know that it will be a few years before I will have the privilege of flying my 650, but its great knowing that there are many others that pushed through and made it work is inspiring. Enjoy the new skies over Texas Mike van Rensburg 650 Scratchbuilder in South Africa Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246923#246923 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.