Today's Message Index:
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1. 07:07 AM - I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (cookwithgas)
2. 08:15 AM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Craig Payne)
3. 08:19 AM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Paul Mulwitz)
4. 09:38 AM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Carroll Jernigan)
5. 10:08 AM - Chat reminder for "Digesters" (George Race)
6. 10:40 AM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Phil Maxson)
7. 11:30 AM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Paul Mulwitz)
8. 11:39 AM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (T. Graziano)
9. 11:55 AM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (jonaburns)
10. 12:00 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Lawrence Webber)
11. 12:42 PM - Zodiac XL Aileron Mass Balancing (T. Graziano)
12. 01:33 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (hansriet)
13. 01:40 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Phil Maxson)
14. 01:54 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Paul Mulwitz)
15. 02:12 PM - Re: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (jaybannist@cs.com)
16. 02:13 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Jim Belcher)
17. 02:49 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Iberplanes IGL)
18. 02:52 PM - Re: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Dave)
19. 03:02 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Paul Mulwitz)
20. 03:14 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Bryan Martin)
21. 03:54 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Jay Maynard)
22. 03:54 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Jay Maynard)
23. 04:13 PM - Re: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Juan Vega)
24. 04:23 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Juan Vega)
25. 04:47 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Juan Vega)
26. 04:57 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (jonaburns)
27. 05:08 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Juan Vega)
28. 05:08 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Jay Maynard)
29. 05:22 PM - Re: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Jay Maynard)
30. 05:26 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Dave Austin)
31. 05:34 PM - Re: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Lawrence Webber)
32. 05:55 PM - Re: [Probable Spam] Re: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (LarryMcFarland)
33. 06:22 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Rick Lindstrom)
34. 06:27 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. ()
35. 06:48 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Dave)
36. 07:03 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Paul Mulwitz)
37. 07:20 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Rick Lindstrom)
38. 08:03 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Ron Lendon)
39. 08:35 PM - Re: Re: Get Me the Hell Off this Ride (JAPhillipsGA@aol.com)
40. 08:37 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (JohnDRead@aol.com)
41. 08:41 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (JohnDRead@aol.com)
42. 09:10 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Gary Gower)
43. 09:50 PM - Re: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Gary Gower)
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| Subject: | I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
On friday my daughter and I flew to Austin, Texas and back plus a little sightseeing
with an old friend, adding four hours to the 601XL hobbs.
I got Zbagged three times. I'll explain later in the story. I left Grand Prairie
at 10:00AM with no flight plan except to head South and find Georgetown on
the GPS once I got in the air. I had looked at the sectional beforehand and noticed
Waco on the way so decided to stop there for fuel.
I had checked the weather and had good reports the night before but it looked nasty
all around us when we decided to take off. The clouds were high, so we contacted
ground, then tower and departed toward the South. We found an untowered
executive airport near Waco and landed for fuel. It was a full-service place
and I paid $4.47 for fuel. I only needed 10 gallons and the lady inside told
me most people complain about the price. I told her it was worth it because
they helped me find Georgetown and told me about some towers to avoid along
with some other advice for the area. While I was in there I ran into a guy who
was staring at my airplane from the office. He said it looked better than
most RV's he has seen. I told him it was a CH601XL and he got this funny look
on his face as if to be surprised that I had actually flown it there. He said
"isn't that the one that the wings fall off?" I said yes and I would not fly
over the office on departure if it would make him feel better. ZBAGGED at my
first stop!
Next stop Georgetown. I have some friends I have not seen in many years living
near Austin and had made arrangements to meet them there and take them flying
over their property. I contacted the tower and landed on a beautiful day and
was met on the ramp by an old man with a walkie talkie who inquired about my
fuel needs and whether or not I'd be staying over night. He said it would cost
me $4 if I decided to stay overnight unless I purchased fuel. He then asked
me what kind of airplane it was and he noted that it "sure is shiny." I told
hm and he right away put on the ZBAG face. "oooooh" he said with a grimace.
I told him I had a BRS and he said "good idea." ZBAGGED for the second time
in one day!
My daughter went shopping with the wife and I took the husband flying over their
property and had a wonderful time making tight turns over their house and doing
slow and low flights over their barn, waving at their kids and sister back
at the house. I think he may have been bitten by the bug and I wouldn't be
surprised if my friend starts taking flying lessons soon. We headed back to
Georgetown airport over some beautiful lakes and called at 10-miles out. The
non-FAA tower guy told me to do a right pattern for runway 18 and call when I
was two-miles out. I continued chatting with my friend, then at about 5 miles
out the tower called back. "5-sierra-lima, what kind of airplane are you flying?"
I told him a CH601XL. Long pause. "Uuuuhhhh." long pause again. "Is
that a Zenith 601XL?" Yes Sir I replied. "Uuuuh." another pause. "How fast
are you traveling?" "Indicating 115 sir" I replied. "OK that's good.... you
be careful...... enter right downwind for 18, cleared to land" ZBAGGED again!
I guess the walkie talkie guy had been talking to the tower guy while I was
gone. Or maybe he had been reading his copy of AOPA while I was gone.
It was a great day of flying and with a tail-wind and smoother air returning to
Grand Prairie. The skies were kind of hazy when we got near home but that took
away the bumps. The tower at Grand Prairie knows me now (maybe they alert
the fire trucks every time I call in) and they call me "five-zero-lima." I think
it's funny they get my call sign wrong most of the time. It is probably the
way I say "sierra."
The next time you, as a Zenith builder or flyer get ZBAGGED, post it here and let
us know about it. Terry Phillips (not Bill) and his merry gang of zbaggers
have really made my flying experiences interesting! I used to get compliments
on the airplane but now I get compliments, then grimaces. At least nobody recognizes
the airplane until I tell them~!
Scott in Texas
601XL/Corvair
136 hours and climbing
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248034#248034
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| Subject: | I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
This is GREAT! With them all worried about the airframe they never get a
chance to worry that you are flying behind a Corvair. :-)
-- Craig
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
So, Scott, did you learn anything from your great experience?
Let me guess . . . You and a few other folks with vested interests
in the Zodiac XL are right to ignore the NTSB finding and the whole
rest of the world is wrong.
Paul
XL grounded
do not archive
At 07:06 AM 6/14/2009, you wrote:
>I got Zbagged three times.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
On Jun 14, 2009, at 10:06 AM, cookwithgas wrote:
>
Scott
Last Wednesday the man who previously purchased my RV7 (my first
aircraft building project) was in my automotive shop the get his car
repaired. First he bragged about the performance of the RV (20 mph
faster at cruise than spec) Then he asked how my S6S project was
going. When I told him that since our last meeting I had forgone the
S6S and was building a 601XL his chin absolutely hit the floor. He had
heard all sorts of stories and was convinced theywere all true. He
asked lots of questions but obviously was not buying any of my
answers. At that point I really convinced him I was totally crazy by
announcing my choice of Corvair power. We parted not quite as close as
we once were and with me convinced that if I should have an accident
he will appear at my funeral with a banner reading "I told you so".
Carroll Jernigan
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248034#248034
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Chat reminder for "Digesters" |
Live Chat Room every Monday evening around 8:00 EDT
www.mykitairplane.com <http://www.mykitairplane.com/>
Click on the Chat Room link on the page.
George
Do Not Archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
Paul,
Larry, I and many others have considered the recommendation of the designer, the
findings of the European testers, and the lack of action by the FAA and decided
to go flying. I was fortunate enough to be able to give a 10 year old his
first flight in a GA plane last weekend.
Phil Maxson
601XL/Corvair
Ungrounded
------Original Message------
From: Paul Mulwitz
Sent: Jun 14, 2009 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report.
So, Scott, did you learn anything from your great experience?
Let me guess . . . You and a few other folks with vested interests
in the Zodiac XL are right to ignore the NTSB finding and the whole
rest of the world is wrong.
Paul
XL grounded
do not archive
At 07:06 AM 6/14/2009, you wrote:
>I got Zbagged three times.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
Hi Phil,
You have every right to reach your own conclusion with regard to the
safety of the Zodiac XL. I just think bragging about taking the kind
of chance you are taking like Scott did in his post is a questionable
thing to do. I can't see how anybody can be surprised that the vast
majority of people think the Zodiac XL needs work after being
grounded in several countries and so strongly criticized by the NTSB.
I don't think you understand the FAA. My questions to the managers
at the FAA indicated there is nothing they can do at this
point. They need to perform studies and then issue an NPRM which
takes at least a year before taking any regulatory action. Even
then, they really don't have any interest in amateur built versions
of the XL - only those that are factory built. Those of us who
choose to build experimental airplanes are literally free to kill
ourselves any way we want in the FAA's view.
You are correct that the hired engineer in Germany and the retired
designer of the XL indicated there is no problem. For me, this
doesn't hold much weight against the NTSB ruling. However, as I said
before, this is a decision each of us must make for ourself.
I just wish the Heintzes would go ahead and do the engineering
necessary to satisfy the NTSB ruling so the rest of us can go and
enjoy our Zodiacs too.
Paul
XL grounded
At 10:31 AM 6/14/2009, you wrote:
>Paul,
>
>Larry, I and many others have considered the recommendation of the
>designer, the findings of the European testers, and the lack of
>action by the FAA and decided to go flying. I was fortunate enough
>to be able to give a 10 year old his first flight in a GA plane last weekend.
>
>Phil Maxson
>601XL/Corvair
>Ungrounded
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
See Below: GOTO http://www.zenairulm.com/News/index_files/Page372.htm
and
http://www.zenairulm.com/FAQ/pdfdocs/CH601XL-GVT-June6.pdf for the
aeroelastic analysis test report
Tony Graziano
XL/Jab 501 hrs
--
Zenair Europe has now made public the entire Ground Vibration Test (GVT)
report recently concluded for the Zenair CH 601 XL design. The complete
battery of tests was conducted in response to speculation that flutter could
have contributed to a number of accidents involving the CH 601 XL.
Testing was overseen by Dr. Uwe Weltin, an internationally recognized
flutter and vibrations specialist and head of the Institut fr
Zuverlaessigkeitstechnik at the Technical University of Hamburg-Harburg
(TUHH). GVT results confirm that when the CH 601 XL is built and maintained
to Zenair specifications, there is "no tendency to flutter or divergence
found within the flight envelope of the CH 601 XL".
With the likelihood of flutter now virtually eliminated, Zenair will shortly
issue a detailed inspection checklist for CH 601 XL owners, to assist with
maintenance and the on-going airworthiness of the aircraft. This checklist
will include control system checks as well as appropriate airspeed indicator
(ASI) markings. Zodiac designer Chris Heintz continues to remind pilots not
to exceed the aircraft's design limitations (which can easily be done in
high-performance ultralights); this includes always flying well below VA in
gusty conditions.
Based on the wide range of the testing parameters used, the detailed report
fully clears the Zodiac design of flutter-related concerns. "By making the
findings of the GVT public in their entirety, we hope to address and put to
rest the groundless concerns regarding the CH 601 XL design and flutter,"
said Nick Heintz on behalf of Zenair Europe. The full 27-page GVT report is
now available on-line and can be viewed at the Zenair Europe website.
For more information on the CH 601 XL aircraft, now one of the now most
tested aircraft in its class, contact Zenair or their nearest regional
representative at www.zenairulm.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Maxson " <pmaxpmax@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
>
> Paul,
>
> Larry, I and many others have considered the recommendation of the
> designer, the findings of the European testers, and the lack of action by
> the FAA and decided to go flying. I was fortunate enough to be able to
> give a 10 year old his first flight in a GA plane last weekend.
>
> Phil Maxson
> 601XL/Corvair
> Ungrounded
> ------Original Message------
> From: Paul Mulwitz
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Jun 14, 2009 11:15 AM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
> Report.
>
>
> So, Scott, did you learn anything from your great experience?
>
> Let me guess . . . You and a few other folks with vested interests
> in the Zodiac XL are right to ignore the NTSB finding and the whole
> rest of the world is wrong.
>
> Paul
> XL grounded
> do not archive
>
>
> At 07:06 AM 6/14/2009, you wrote:
> >I got Zbagged three times.
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
I was trying to rent some hanger space last week and the owner asked me what kind
of plane I had. I said it was similar in size to the RV12, but is a Zodiac
601XL.
"WHAT?" he said... "Isn't that the plane that is crashing all over the place?"
I explained that as far as I know, there have been 6 fatal crashes in the past
couple of years worldwide, and asked if he knew that the RVs had 8 fatal crashes
in 2008 alone.
Yes, there are many more RVs out there, so we are talking apples to oranges here,
but there are crashes with other models too. I went on to explain CH's view
on maintenance and some other info, which seemed to lower his blood pressure.
I then told him about the ZBAG and their efforts to demand root cause at any cost,
their "Engineer" that continues to support a hypothesis that independent testing
has shown to be incorrect, and an outspoken member that prances around
confusing "colorful curiosity" with celebrity.
After he stopped laughing, he told me to bring it over and he would make room.
Jon Burns
CH601XL/Corvair
Almost done....
Little Elm, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248066#248066
Message 10
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| Subject: | I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
Paul im really tired of your closed mind its obvious no matter
what reports are issued you will not change your opinion.
Its my belief and desire =2Cthat you should=2C forever :keep your
aircraft grounded. flames expected
Larry
> Date: Sun=2C 14 Jun 2009 11:29:44 -0700
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> From: psm@att.net
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Re
port.
>
>
> Hi Phil=2C
>
> You have every right to reach your own conclusion with regard to the
> safety of the Zodiac XL. I just think bragging about taking the kind
> of chance you are taking like Scott did in his post is a questionable
> thing to do. I can't see how anybody can be surprised that the vast
> majority of people think the Zodiac XL needs work after being
> grounded in several countries and so strongly criticized by the NTSB.
>
> I don't think you understand the FAA. My questions to the managers
> at the FAA indicated there is nothing they can do at this
> point. They need to perform studies and then issue an NPRM which
> takes at least a year before taking any regulatory action. Even
> then=2C they really don't have any interest in amateur built versions
> of the XL - only those that are factory built. Those of us who
> choose to build experimental airplanes are literally free to kill
> ourselves any way we want in the FAA's view.
>
> You are correct that the hired engineer in Germany and the retired
> designer of the XL indicated there is no problem. For me=2C this
> doesn't hold much weight against the NTSB ruling. However=2C as I said
> before=2C this is a decision each of us must make for ourself.
>
> I just wish the Heintzes would go ahead and do the engineering
> necessary to satisfy the NTSB ruling so the rest of us can go and
> enjoy our Zodiacs too.
>
> Paul
> XL grounded
>
>
> At 10:31 AM 6/14/2009=2C you wrote:
> >Paul=2C
> >
> >Larry=2C I and many others have considered the recommendation of the
> >designer=2C the findings of the European testers=2C and the lack of
> >action by the FAA and decided to go flying. I was fortunate enough
> >to be able to give a 10 year old his first flight in a GA plane last wee
kend.
> >
> >Phil Maxson
> >601XL/Corvair
> >Ungrounded
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that=92s right for you.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
Message 11
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| Subject: | Zodiac XL Aileron Mass Balancing |
=93A number of individual Zodiac owners as well as government agencies
have recommended the installation of traditional aileron mass balancing
as a means to mitigate any risk of flutter with the Zodiac design. Based
on the standard airframe design examined and on the GVT results and
linear approach of the flutter analysis documented in this report, mass
balancing for the ailerons of the CH601XL (see example Figure 24) or the
use of spades (see Figure 25) is not needed or justified.
While mass balancing of the ailerons is generally believed to prevent
flutter, the extra weight associated with control-surface mass balancing
could have negative consequences if not properly designed and/or
supported. It is possible that modifications to the standard control
system and/or basic airframe structure of the Zodiac could be necessary
to properly install aileron mass balancing on the CH650E.
As any new modification (such as mass balancing) can potentially be
associated with new =93randomly excited non-linear vibrations=94, it
must therefore be =93sound=94 (sensible) through logic and reasoning and
effective as demonstrated through testing. Sometimes, if one does not
know exactly what one is doing, one can make matters worse with a
well-intentioned modification to an aircraft.
Hamburg, June 6, 2009=94
FYI: Above From the CH601XL GVT Report, Pages 25 and 26.
GOTO http://www.zenairulm.com/FAQ/pdfdocs/CH601XL-GVT-June6.pdf
Tony Graziano
XL/Jab; N493TG; 501 enjoyable hours
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
[quote="jonaburns"]I explained that as far as I know, there have been 6 fatal crashes
in the past couple of years worldwide, and asked if he knew that the RVs
had 8 fatal crashes in 2008 alone.
Jon Burns
CH601XL/Corvair
Almost done....
Little Elm, TX[/quote]
And all RV crashes had identical causes?
Just asking.
Hans
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248077#248077
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
Paul Mulwitz wrote: "I just think bragging about taking the kind of chance you
are taking like Scott did in his post is a questionable thing to do."
Oh, Paul. This is truly sad. I think you should sell the XL, buy the LSA you're
leasing, get on their email list, hire an engineer to analyze that other design,
bug people on that list, and leave us alone. Then at Sun-n-Fun 2010 you
can yell at those nice people too.
Please don't reply to this email. You're back on the ignore list. Sorry man.
Phil Maxson
601XL/Corvair
Saddened, but not grounded
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
To all those charming people who have suggested I should sell the
airplane I have invested 4 years of my life in, I have the following response.
Please make an offer to buy my plane. To my knowledge, there is
nobody on Earth willing to buy an XL right now at any price. I would
be delighted to be proved wrong.
Paul
XL grounded
do not archive
At 01:35 PM 6/14/2009, you wrote:
>Oh, Paul. This is truly sad. I think you should sell the XL
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
Hans,
Not an answer to your question (which is totally irrelevant anyway), but to your
implication.? If, by your loaded question, you are implying that all the XL
crashes "had identical causes",? you are WAY off base !!!? You will have to find
some other "skunk up a tree" to bark at.
Jay Bannister
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: hansriet <hansinla@mac.com>
Sent: Sun, Jun 14, 2009 3:32 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report.
[quote="jonaburns"]I explained that as far as I know, there have been 6 fatal
crashes in the past couple of years worldwide, and asked if he knew that the RVs
had 8 fatal crashes in 2008 alone.
Jon Burns
CH601XL/Corvair
Almost done....
Little Elm, TX[/quote]
And all RV crashes had identical causes?
Just asking.
Hans
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248077#248077
________________________________________________________________________
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Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
On Sunday 14 June 2009 15:51, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
>
> To all those charming people who have suggested I should sell the
> airplane I have invested 4 years of my life in, I have the following
> response.
>
> Please make an offer to buy my plane. To my knowledge, there is
> nobody on Earth willing to buy an XL right now at any price. I would
> be delighted to be proved wrong.
1) Who built it?
2) What engine does it have?
3) Where is it?
=============================================
You can check on my aircraft construction
progress at: http://www.mykitlog.com/santaigo
================================================
Jim B. Belcher
BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Instrument Rated Pilot
General Radio Telephone Certificate
Retired Aerospace Technical Manager
================================================
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
Right Paul, the same happens here in Europe. That=B4s to sad for all of us.
Also take a look at barnstormers, you=B4ll have plenty of XLs.
bye,
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
----------------------------------------------
Zodiac 601 XL Builder
Serial: 6-7011
Tail Kit: Finished
Wings: Not Started
Fuselage: @ home
Engine: Jabiru 3300
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
Instead of ranting and raving, and launcing ad hominem attacks on
individuals who's reaction to concerns about safety is different than
yours. Why don't you resort to the only truth we know so far.
No known cause of structural failures has thus far been determined, and
all tests so far conducted have revealed no significant shortcomings in
the design.
Any belief that the airframe IS without fault is simply conjecture, as
is the belief that there is a major fault.
Coming forth with another pointless attack and starting this whole
argument up again is childish and stupid.
Zbag is a group concerned with ensuring your (and their own) safety as
far as I have been advised, and they have accomplished some sound work
in that direction although it did not reveal a fault. Safety is a
worthwhile endeavour, even if it is inconvenient from time to time. It
appears at this time that the XL is safe to fly if strict attention is
applied to make sure that the flight envelope is never breached, and
maintenance is applied to a strict standard. I hope that future
statistics reinforce that opinion.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight |
Report.
Hi Jim,
I built it from standard kit. I scrapped the first wing, so I have
actually built three wings. The final configuration, of course, only
has two wings. I have approximately 1500 digital pictures of all the
phases of construction. (Anybody who wants copies of the pictures
can have them if only they will supply storage media - a 2 GB thumb
drive or SD card will work fine).
Equipment on the plane includes:
A brand new Jabiru 3300 engine - completely installed but never
started. It still has the factory "Pickle Juice" in it. FWF kit
including wood Sensenich prop from Jabiru USA.
Dynon D100 EFIS and D120 EMS both with extra bright screen.
Dynon HS-34.
Garmin SL-30 with both Comm and Nav antennas installed.
Garmin GTX 320 transponder with Dynon Serial to parallel converter
and antenna.
All the electronics are installed and apparently working. The
transponder has not yet been tested. SL-30 Comm works fine, but the
nav portion not yet verified (no signal to receive in my
hangar). The Dynon functions have been mostly verified but no tubes
yet run for pitot/static. The EFIS and EMS and HS-34 are connected
and talk to each other just fine. The mag sensor is connected to the
EFIS and working. Sockets installed and tested for two headsets.
The plane has not yet been inspected for airworthiness. It could be
ready for that inspection in a week or two (less before removing the
wings for long term storage). Flap stops and aileron stops have been
installed. All electrical wiring has been done except for final
connection of wing mounted devices - fuel senders, strobe power,
position lights. Those were connected except for the fuel senders
which have never been hooked up. Similarly, the fuel lines have not
ever been hooked up to the tank selector, but the rest of the fuel
system is installed.
Kit options include wing lockers, strobes, Nav lights, and dual toe
brakes, center Y stick and hingeless ailerons. No landing lights.
The kit has mostly been assembled according to the drawings. One
exception is addition of gussets between the wing attach uprights and
top longerons. That change was approved by N. Heintz (as not causing
a problem, but not necessarily any good). Also, my own design for
dual throttles is installed. It is very smooth - unlike the dual
throttle kit I bought from Jabiru USA which was difficult to move at
all because of all the sharp cable bends.
The plane has been painted on the interior part of the cabin and the
bottom of the cabin. The rest is unpainted. Internal joints are
directly connected without any primer - as suggested by EAA advisors.
The plane is located in Camas, WA (1W1). It is currently in 3 pieces
- 2 wings and all the rest.
If anybody really wants to buy it, I would certainly consider selling
it. Price would have to cover all the brand new electronics and
engine. Also, buyer would have to sign a contract indicating they
understand it is an experimental airplane, built by an amateur and
currently under suspicion of having a fatal design flaw that has
killed at least 10 people from in-flight structure failures.
I would expect any buyer to arrange for crating and shipment to their
location. Inspection can be done at any time with prior appointment.
Paul
Camas, WA
do not archive
[]
At 02:16 PM 6/14/2009, you wrote:
> > Please make an offer to buy my plane. To my knowledge, there is
> > nobody on Earth willing to buy an XL right now at any price. I would
> > be delighted to be proved wrong.
>
>
>1) Who built it?
>2) What engine does it have?
>3) Where is it?
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
The big difference here is that the engineers who did the GVT have
actually studied this particular aircraft design in great detail while
the Bureaucrats who wrote the NTSB report have not.
On Jun 14, 2009, at 2:29 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
>
> You are correct that the hired engineer in Germany and the retired
> designer of the XL indicated there is no problem. For me, this
> doesn't hold much weight against the NTSB ruling. However, as I
> said before, this is a decision each of us must make for ourself.
>
> I just wish the Heintzes would go ahead and do the engineering
> necessary to satisfy the NTSB ruling so the rest of us can go and
> enjoy our Zodiacs too.
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 06:08:34PM -0400, Bryan Martin wrote:
> The big difference here is that the engineers who did the GVT have actually
> studied this particular aircraft design in great detail while the
> Bureaucrats who wrote the NTSB report have not.
...and this is enough to convince me that flutter isn't the problem.
We still don't know what *is* the problem.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 07:06:48AM -0700, cookwithgas wrote:
> The next time you, as a Zenith builder or flyer get ZBAGGED, post it here
> and let us know about it. Terry Phillips (not Bill) and his merry gang of
> zbaggers have really made my flying experiences interesting! I used to
> get compliments on the airplane but now I get compliments, then grimaces.
> At least nobody recognizes the airplane until I tell them~!
OKKAY, THAT'S FUCKING *IT*!
Stop blaming ZBAG for the Zodiac's public perception problems. ZBAG didn't
do it. The NTSB did. ZBAG, as with ANY OTHER INTERESTED PERSON!, sumitted
its comments and concerns to the NTSB. The NTSB was free to include or
ignore those comments as it saw fit. Obviously, it saw fit to include them.
ZBAG acted out of NO OTHER MOTIVATION than ensuring the safety of the fleet.
ZBAG did so a FULL YEAR before the NTSB sent out its recommedation. It did
so LONG BEFORE Zenair and the Heintz family did more than post the same
pictures of static testing with no mention of anything else. ZBAG led the
way in ensuring the safety of the Zodiac fleet. If you don't like that,
that's JUST TOO FUCKING BAD!
Now, QUIT YOUR GODDAMNED PISSING AND MOANING and go fly your fucking
AIRPLANE! Since you obviously don't care aobut safety, go see how it does
above Vne, while you're at it.
Just for the record, I just got back from a fly in at Gaston's White River
Resort in Arkansas. I flew somewhere around 13 hours getting there, flying
around the area, and geting back. I answered lots of questions. I also
didn't sell my airplane, but I wasn't expecting to, either.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
Perfect explaination and resopnse to bad gossip and heresay. A great rebuttal.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: jonaburns <lsapilot@HOTMAIL.COM>
>Sent: Jun 14, 2009 2:55 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report.
>
>
>I was trying to rent some hanger space last week and the owner asked me what kind
of plane I had. I said it was similar in size to the RV12, but is a Zodiac
601XL.
>
>"WHAT?" he said... "Isn't that the plane that is crashing all over the place?"
>
>I explained that as far as I know, there have been 6 fatal crashes in the past
couple of years worldwide, and asked if he knew that the RVs had 8 fatal crashes
in 2008 alone.
>
>Yes, there are many more RVs out there, so we are talking apples to oranges here,
but there are crashes with other models too. I went on to explain CH's view
on maintenance and some other info, which seemed to lower his blood pressure.
>
>I then told him about the ZBAG and their efforts to demand root cause at any cost,
their "Engineer" that continues to support a hypothesis that independent
testing has shown to be incorrect, and an outspoken member that prances around
confusing "colorful curiosity" with celebrity.
>
>After he stopped laughing, he told me to bring it over and he would make room.
>
>
>Jon Burns
>CH601XL/Corvair
>Almost done....
>Little Elm, TX
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248066#248066
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
Paul,
your clearly not happy. You need to sell your plane and fly a certified plane.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
>Sent: Jun 14, 2009 2:29 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report.
>
>
>Hi Phil,
>
>You have every right to reach your own conclusion with regard to the
>safety of the Zodiac XL. I just think bragging about taking the kind
>of chance you are taking like Scott did in his post is a questionable
>thing to do. I can't see how anybody can be surprised that the vast
>majority of people think the Zodiac XL needs work after being
>grounded in several countries and so strongly criticized by the NTSB.
>
>I don't think you understand the FAA. My questions to the managers
>at the FAA indicated there is nothing they can do at this
>point. They need to perform studies and then issue an NPRM which
>takes at least a year before taking any regulatory action. Even
>then, they really don't have any interest in amateur built versions
>of the XL - only those that are factory built. Those of us who
>choose to build experimental airplanes are literally free to kill
>ourselves any way we want in the FAA's view.
>
>You are correct that the hired engineer in Germany and the retired
>designer of the XL indicated there is no problem. For me, this
>doesn't hold much weight against the NTSB ruling. However, as I said
>before, this is a decision each of us must make for ourself.
>
>I just wish the Heintzes would go ahead and do the engineering
>necessary to satisfy the NTSB ruling so the rest of us can go and
>enjoy our Zodiacs too.
>
>Paul
>XL grounded
>
>
>At 10:31 AM 6/14/2009, you wrote:
>>Paul,
>>
>>Larry, I and many others have considered the recommendation of the
>>designer, the findings of the European testers, and the lack of
>>action by the FAA and decided to go flying. I was fortunate enough
>>to be able to give a 10 year old his first flight in a GA plane last weekend.
>>
>>Phil Maxson
>>601XL/Corvair
>>Ungrounded
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
Paul,
NTSB did not find anything, they published a report based on pblic pressure from
a few, and not clearly reading all the results of the reports, or waiting for
the GVT test results to be completed. PLease sell your plane.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Phil Maxson <pmaxpmax@HOTMAIL.COM>
>Sent: Jun 14, 2009 1:31 PM
>To: "zenith-list@matronics.com " <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report.
>
>
>Paul,
>
>Larry, I and many others have considered the recommendation of the designer, the
findings of the European testers, and the lack of action by the FAA and decided
to go flying. I was fortunate enough to be able to give a 10 year old his
first flight in a GA plane last weekend.
>
>Phil Maxson
>601XL/Corvair
>Ungrounded
>------Original Message------
>From: Paul Mulwitz
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Jun 14, 2009 11:15 AM
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report.
>
>
> So, Scott, did you learn anything from your great experience?
>
> Let me guess . . . You and a few other folks with vested interests
> in the Zodiac XL are right to ignore the NTSB finding and the whole
> rest of the world is wrong.
>
> Paul
> XL grounded
> do not archive
>
>
> At 07:06 AM 6/14/2009, you wrote:
> >I got Zbagged three times.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
Jay,
Thanks for once again showing your stability. That kind of language has no business
here. I usually allow my 7 and 12 year olds to read the posts, but I guess
I will have to restrict them to books again.
Has anyone seen anything of Sabrina around this list?
This list has migrated from being entirely informative, to a polarized mess. I
am as guilty as many others as to keeping on topic, but this type of reaction
is not acceptable.
Jon Burns
Little Elm, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248109#248109
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
I got my story to tell.
Yesterady was a pretty day to go flying here in St. Pete. 10 knot sea breaze .
vis 10 miles plus. SO I call the tower on ground and state "427jv with ATIS
at south side requesting south bound departure".
Tower" runway 7, winds 330-10, err good luck"
Me-" runway 7,"
then runup complete, I call" 427jv, runup complete ready for take off"
Tower- "roger 427jv clear for take off, squawk 1030, mqake right traffic, err
good luck."
Me- " clear for takeoff, runway 7 squawking 1030, good luck to you too."
1 hour later, same thing,
Me-" 427jv 5 miles west inbound,"
Tower- "runway 25 clear to Land , alt 2999, err, good luck"
Me- runway 25 clear to land, and good luck to you.
Tower "good luck to me? i am not the one in a 601."
ZBAGED!~!
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: cookwithgas <cookwithgas@HOTMAIL.COM>
>Sent: Jun 14, 2009 10:06 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report.
>
>
>On friday my daughter and I flew to Austin, Texas and back plus a little sightseeing
with an old friend, adding four hours to the 601XL hobbs.
>
>I got Zbagged three times. I'll explain later in the story. I left Grand Prairie
at 10:00AM with no flight plan except to head South and find Georgetown on
the GPS once I got in the air. I had looked at the sectional beforehand and
noticed Waco on the way so decided to stop there for fuel.
>
>I had checked the weather and had good reports the night before but it looked
nasty all around us when we decided to take off. The clouds were high, so we
contacted ground, then tower and departed toward the South. We found an untowered
executive airport near Waco and landed for fuel. It was a full-service place
and I paid $4.47 for fuel. I only needed 10 gallons and the lady inside
told me most people complain about the price. I told her it was worth it because
they helped me find Georgetown and told me about some towers to avoid along
with some other advice for the area. While I was in there I ran into a guy
who was staring at my airplane from the office. He said it looked better than
most RV's he has seen. I told him it was a CH601XL and he got this funny look
on his face as if to be surprised that I had actually flown it there. He said
"isn't that the one that the wings fall off?" I said yes and I would not fly
over the office on departure if it would make him
!
> feel better. ZBAGGED at my first stop!
>
>Next stop Georgetown. I have some friends I have not seen in many years living
near Austin and had made arrangements to meet them there and take them flying
over their property. I contacted the tower and landed on a beautiful day and
was met on the ramp by an old man with a walkie talkie who inquired about my
fuel needs and whether or not I'd be staying over night. He said it would cost
me $4 if I decided to stay overnight unless I purchased fuel. He then asked
me what kind of airplane it was and he noted that it "sure is shiny." I told
hm and he right away put on the ZBAG face. "oooooh" he said with a grimace.
I told him I had a BRS and he said "good idea." ZBAGGED for the second time
in one day!
>
>My daughter went shopping with the wife and I took the husband flying over their
property and had a wonderful time making tight turns over their house and doing
slow and low flights over their barn, waving at their kids and sister back
at the house. I think he may have been bitten by the bug and I wouldn't be
surprised if my friend starts taking flying lessons soon. We headed back to
Georgetown airport over some beautiful lakes and called at 10-miles out. The
non-FAA tower guy told me to do a right pattern for runway 18 and call when I
was two-miles out. I continued chatting with my friend, then at about 5 miles
out the tower called back. "5-sierra-lima, what kind of airplane are you flying?"
I told him a CH601XL. Long pause. "Uuuuhhhh." long pause again. "Is
that a Zenith 601XL?" Yes Sir I replied. "Uuuuh." another pause. "How fast
are you traveling?" "Indicating 115 sir" I replied. "OK that's good.... you
be careful...... enter right downwind for 18, cleare
!
> d to land" ZBAGGED again! I guess the walkie talkie guy had been talking to
the tower guy while I was gone. Or maybe he had been reading his copy of AOPA
while I was gone.
>
>It was a great day of flying and with a tail-wind and smoother air returning to
Grand Prairie. The skies were kind of hazy when we got near home but that took
away the bumps. The tower at Grand Prairie knows me now (maybe they alert
the fire trucks every time I call in) and they call me "five-zero-lima." I think
it's funny they get my call sign wrong most of the time. It is probably
the way I say "sierra."
>
>The next time you, as a Zenith builder or flyer get ZBAGGED, post it here and
let us know about it. Terry Phillips (not Bill) and his merry gang of zbaggers
have really made my flying experiences interesting! I used to get compliments
on the airplane but now I get compliments, then grimaces. At least nobody
recognizes the airplane until I tell them~!
>
>Scott in Texas
>601XL/Corvair
>136 hours and climbing
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248034#248034
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 07:23:18PM -0400, Juan Vega wrote:
> your clearly not happy. You need to sell your plane and fly a certified
> plane.
I don't know why you keep raising this red herring. There are lots of
experimental aircraft that haven't had a rash of unexplained in-flight
structural failures. It's not about certificated vs. experimental. It's
about a manufacturer's response to bad news: do they stonewall, or do they
forthrightly and publicly address the problem? I'm quite happy to see Zenith
move from the former to the latter with regard to the GVT testing, and hope
they do so as completely as humanly possible. (And I still think ZBAG is
wrong not to do the same.)
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 04:56:21PM -0700, jonaburns wrote:
> Thanks for once again showing your stability. That kind of language has
> no business here.
Neither do the personal attacks that seem to be the stock in trade of some
posters around here. The use of the term "Zbagged" in such a fashion was the
last straw for me.
> This list has migrated from being entirely informative, to a polarized
> mess. I am as guilty as many others as to keeping on topic, but this type
> of reaction is not acceptable.
Neither was the post that provoked it, or the subsequent post that used the
same term.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
Chatted to a knowledgeable person up here in Canada. He told me the XL had
been tested up to 400 mph with no problems. Now if only we could persuade
some drivers not to jerk the stick..
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
hey tron guy=2C go to google type in zbag scroll down to urban legand defin
ition the definition sure fits flame on
Larry
> Date: Sun=2C 14 Jun 2009 19:20:01 -0500
> From: jmaynard@conmicro.com
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Fligh
t Report.
>
>
> On Sun=2C Jun 14=2C 2009 at 04:56:21PM -0700=2C jonaburns wrote:
> > Thanks for once again showing your stability. That kind of language has
> > no business here.
>
> Neither do the personal attacks that seem to be the stock in trade of som
e
> posters around here. The use of the term "Zbagged" in such a fashion was
the
> last straw for me.
>
> > This list has migrated from being entirely informative=2C to a polarize
d
> > mess. I am as guilty as many others as to keeping on topic=2C but this
type
> > of reaction is not acceptable.
>
> Neither was the post that provoked it=2C or the subsequent post that used
the
> same term.
> --
> Jay Maynard=2C K5ZC=2C PP-ASEL=2C CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
> http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
> Fairmont=2C MN (KFRM) (Yes=2C that's me!)
> AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on |
Friday - Flight Report.
Hi Dave,
I've commented that the flutter was an unlikely problem for the XLs that
failed. Aside from overloading, mishandling or workmanship, the one
significant change from HD and HDS series design was the longer, thinner
wing and center section that is the shorter focal point for the leverage
of the longer wing. Same fuel loading, baggage, people and engines.
Photos of the damaged parts suggest to me that the failure occurs in the
center section. You only have to count the frequency of fractures and
cracks in the center spar to realize the problem is focused in that
area. The wings are beat up from impact, but the cracks, fractures and
failure of the center spar show an intense concentration of stresses
there before and after impact with the ground.
The numbers prove the center spar is adequate for the designed loads,
but beyond the safety factor, fatigue and an overly responsive elevator
can easily rewrite this equation.
Id hope too that they are looking at each aircraft's time of
construction, process and design evolution and Airworthiness date.
Something will eventually be discovered thats specifically relevant.
I began my HDS 1998-9, just before the first updated plans for the XL
were available, or I'd certainly have built the XL for its speed and
flaps etc. Given hindsight of the recent year, I 'd still have gone with
the XL as it's a very capable, modern design. Time will show the XL to
be an aircraft that can be safely flown for thousands of hours over many
years if its constructed properly and religiously flown within its
design envelope.
Id recommend you continue to fly and observe the common sense rules for
your 601XLs and enjoy the benefits before TSA and the nanny politicos
take over to protect us from ourselves.
Do fly safe, respectfully,
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Dave wrote:
> Instead of ranting and raving, and launcing ad hominem attacks on
> individuals who's reaction to concerns about safety is different than
> yours. Why don't you resort to the only truth we know so far.
> No known cause of structural failures has thus far been determined,
> and all tests so far conducted have revealed no significant
> shortcomings in the design.
> Any belief that the airframe IS without fault is simply conjecture, as
> is the belief that there is a major fault.
> *
> *
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
>Let me guess . . . You and a few other folks with vested interests
>in the Zodiac XL are right to ignore the NTSB finding and the whole
>rest of the world is wrong.
>
>Paul
>XL grounded
Paul, having met you and chatted at SnF, I'm sure that you're bright enough to
know beforehand that posting such polarizing comments only serves to stir the
pot, muddy the waters, and gets the Zenith 601 community no closer to any kind
of reasonable understanding of this issue.
Apparently, you've divided us into two camps; "folks with vested interests in the
Zodiac XL" and the "whole rest of the world". How insulting. As if owning a
601XL is tantamount to some form of suicidal self-delusion and willful ignorance.
Mark Twain once observed something along the lines of "A lie will be half way around
the world before the truth can get its boots on." And now we're seeing the
same thing happen when we fly our 601s and those who don't know any better
make some comment about the "wings falling off". And the recent AOPA article,
written some time ago without all of the facts, bolstered that perception as well.
Hopefully, some journalistic integrity will kick in and they'll print some
form of a retraction.
YOU, however, have no excuse for posting such reckless observations, especially
after I (and others) have patiently answered every one of your concerns with
the following:
The 601XL elevator is extremely sensitive, and sudden full down deflections at
high airspeeds will compromise the wing attachments. Flying with loose aileron
cables may induce flutter leading to catastrophic failure. The airframe was never
designed for aerobatics, flight into severe turbulence or thunderstorms.
The airframe must be constructed of factory approved materials, substitution of
weaker or improper airframe parts may compromise safety. And don't forget to
install the flap stops.
Seems to me that Zenith has addressed all of the above in the recent past, even
to the point of extensive GVT. However, you (and a few others here) keep insisting
that the airframe has a "fatal flaw" in spite of the data to the contrary.
I can only assume that such incendiary grandstanding in a public forum is done
out of a need to stroke one's ego (at the expense of the 601 community), since
you repeatedly keep ignoring recent evidence that presents a much different picture
than the one you keep offering up as fact.
You've grounded your airplane, and that's your call. No one has second guessed
your decision to do so. So please allow us to fly ours without the insults, and
we'll call it even, OK?
Rick Lindstrom
N42KP
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
OK, one grand, where is, as is. No, make that TWO grand. I'll put mine
away, finish and fly yours, just to prove the point. No, I don't really
expect you to take me up on it, but you might think along the lines of
adding a BRS, and enjoy flying it. From what you've written over the
years, it sounds like your workmanship is up to snuff, so why not add
one more accessory for peace of mind, and go have a good time.
Paul R
601XL/Corvair
anxiously awaiting my nitrided crank
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Mulwitz<mailto:psm@att.net>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
<psm@att.net<mailto:psm@att.net>>
To all those charming people who have suggested I should sell the
airplane I have invested 4 years of my life in, I have the following
response.
Please make an offer to buy my plane. To my knowledge, there is
nobody on Earth willing to buy an XL right now at any price. I would
be delighted to be proved wrong.
Paul
XL grounded
do not archive
At 01:35 PM 6/14/2009, you wrote:
>Oh, Paul. This is truly sad. I think you should sell the XL
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Zenith-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
Is it only polarizing incediary grandstanding when it is critical of those
insulting those who were or are looking for a way to identify potential
safety issues, or can we assume there has been more than enough crap flung
from both sides?
Remember this list was once again a civil conversation about building and
flying issues until some fool had to have another shot.
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight |
Report.
Gee Thanks Paul,
Two grand is not a really generous offer for over $30,000 worth of
brand new avionics and engine. That doesn't even give a penny of
value for the airframe.
Sorry, your bid is not acceptable.
Paul
At 06:26 PM 6/14/2009, you wrote:
>OK, one grand, where is, as is. No, make that TWO grand. I'll put
>mine away, finish and fly yours, just to prove the point. No, I
>don't really expect you to take me up on it, but you might think
>along the lines of adding a BRS, and enjoy flying it. From what
>you've written over the years, it sounds like your workmanship is up
>to snuff, so why not add one more accessory for peace of mind, and
>go have a good time.
>
>Paul R
>601XL/Corvair
>anxiously awaiting my nitrided crank
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
Yes, Dave, it WAS nice around here while it lasted, wasn't it?
However, the sullied reputation of the 601XL will remain so until the hoopla is
allowed to die down. Unfortunately, this may take awhile, ss evidenced by the
negative comments gathered by those who've endured them and reported them here.
Frankly, I'm a bit stunned by the comments from those who choose to ignore the
recent GVT data and continue to press the "fatal flaw" theory. Sure, the 601XL
airframe is just not going to put up with the same abuse that other airframes
might handle. But then, it's not stressed for aerobatics or intended for rough
weather conditions.
I'm very fortunate to have access to several airplanes to fly, and I'll choose
the right one for the mission at hand. The 601XL is a great, good-weather, fun-flying
type airplane. If there's any weather involved, or anything beyond light
to moderate chop, I'll take a different one.
It is what it is. It ain't what it ain't. Why is this so hard to understand?
Rick
-----Original Message-----
>From: Dave <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca>
>Sent: Jun 14, 2009 9:44 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report.
>
>
>Is it only polarizing incediary grandstanding when it is critical of those
>insulting those who were or are looking for a way to identify potential
>safety issues, or can we assume there has been more than enough crap flung
>from both sides?
>
>Remember this list was once again a civil conversation about building and
>flying issues until some fool had to have another shot.
>
>
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
Paul,
> I just wish the Heintzes would go ahead and do the engineering
> necessary to satisfy the NTSB ruling so the rest of us can go and
> enjoy our Zodiacs too.
The NTSB only makes recommendations, they do not make rules.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
http://home.comcast.net/~rlendon/site/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248142#248142
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Get Me the Hell Off this Ride |
Whoever is in control of this list about the 601 XL airplanes please
remove me from whatever list sends me e-mails about that plane. 4 - 5 years
ago when I was building my XL and for a long time afterward I enjoyed the
fellowship of like minded builders. Now there appears to be way too many DICK
HEADS and too few builders. Stop sending me e-mails. Bill Phillips, 601XL
3300Jab 145 Hrs
a message dated 6/14/2009 11:04:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
rlendon@comcast.net writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon@comcast.net>
Paul,
> I just wish the Heintzes would go ahead and do the engineering
> necessary to satisfy the NTSB ruling so the rest of us can go and
> enjoy our Zodiacs too.
The NTSB only makes recommendations, they do not make rules.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
http://home.comcast.net/~rlendon/site/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248142#248142
**************Choose the home loan that saves you the most $$$. Agents
available at ditech.com
1%2F)
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
Paul, I thought we had told you to get lost. Your vituperative comments are
not appreciated.
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
**************Choose the home loan that saves you the most $$$. Agents
available at ditech.com
1%2F)
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
Temper temper. I hope you get thrown off the list for your bad attitude.
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
**************Choose the home loan that saves you the most $$$. Agents
available at ditech.com
1%2F)
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
When I was a kid, I used to read every night before sleep,-(now old) book
s of adventure travel around the world, I dreamed to be a Indiana Jones Typ
e of guy. The guy with the Land Rover with a canoe in the roof, in the Came
l cigarettes advetizing was "me as a grown up guy"-photo :-)- ....
-
Now about-this mail (Paul's answer)- came into memory one book from old
-Arabia...--
-
And I remember this part:
It was known that-camels were (probably still are) very dificult to train
...- The said they are worse than mules...- So when-a guy had a reall
y dificult camel and beguin-complaining-about his camel...- There was
a saying:
"Dont talk-bad things about your camel, or you will not sell it"--
-
Well, only some memories from my-live, previous to TV and internet and Ze
nith-airplanes-life :-)
-
Saludos
Gary Gower
Building 601 XL- Jab 3300.
Fuselage finished, start building-the flutter free wings-:-)
Do not archive
-
--- On Sun, 6/14/09, Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net> wrote:
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repo
rt.
To all those charming people who have suggested I should sell the airplane
I have invested 4 years of my life in, I have the following response.
Please make an offer to buy my plane.- To my knowledge, there is nobody o
n Earth willing to buy an XL right now at any price.- I would be delighte
d to be proved wrong.
Paul
XL grounded
do not archive
At 01:35 PM 6/14/2009, you wrote:
> Oh, Paul.- This is truly sad.- I think you should sell the XL
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
Hello Larry,
-
That-IS good english school for foreigners!-- :-)- :-)- :-)
-
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Do not archive.
--- On Sun, 6/14/09, Lawrence Webber <lawrencewebber@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
From: Lawrence Webber <lawrencewebber@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
#yiv44164203 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv44164203 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}
hey tron guy, go to google type in zbag scroll down to urban legand definit
ion-- the definition sure fits---- flame on
Larry
-
> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:20:01 -0500
> From: jmaynard@conmicro.com
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Fligh
t Report.
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 04:56:21PM -0700, jonaburns wrote:
> > Thanks for once again showing your stability. That kind of language has
> > no business here.
>
> Neither do the personal attacks that seem to be the stock in trade of som
e
> posters around here. The use of the term "Zbagged" in such a fashion was
the
> last straw for me.
>
> > This list has migrated from being entirely informative, to a polarized
> > mess. I am as guilty as many others as to keeping on topic, but this ty
pe
> > of reaction is not acceptable.
>
> Neither was the post that provoked it, or the subsequent post that used t
he
> same term.
> --
> Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
> http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
> Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
> AMD Zodiac CH601XL Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>==
>
>
>
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