Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:33 AM - Re: Quick open poll about wing failures. (Scotsman)
2. 02:46 AM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Scotsman)
3. 02:53 AM - Re: XL Testing UK (Clive Richards)
4. 04:11 AM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (ernie)
5. 04:37 AM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (Bill Pagan)
6. 06:04 AM - ZBAG, a respectful question (kkinney)
7. 06:22 AM - Re: ZBAG, a respectful question (Jay Maynard)
8. 06:28 AM - cowling kit (Lawrence Webber)
9. 06:28 AM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report (Gig Giacona)
10. 06:38 AM - Re: Making the right stick removable (Gig Giacona)
11. 06:39 AM - Re: cowling kit (Gig Giacona)
12. 06:42 AM - Re: ZBAG, a respectful question (ernie)
13. 07:12 AM - Where did ZBAG go? (Gig Giacona)
14. 07:37 AM - Re: Where did ZBAG go? (cookwithgas)
15. 07:41 AM - Re: Where did ZBAG go? (William Dominguez)
16. 07:44 AM - Re: Re: Making the right stick removable (Jim Belcher)
17. 07:50 AM - Re: Re: Where did ZBAG go? (Jay Maynard)
18. 08:01 AM - Re: ZBAG, a respectful question (Paul Mulwitz)
19. 08:10 AM - Re: ZBAG, a respectful question (Dave)
20. 08:12 AM - Re: Where did ZBAG go? (Bill Pagan)
21. 08:34 AM - Re: ZBAG, a respectful question (Jay Maynard)
22. 08:34 AM - Forwarded: Re: [ZBAG] Re: Link to Zenair GVT Report (Jay Maynard)
23. 08:38 AM - Re: Where did ZBAG go? (Gig Giacona)
24. 08:47 AM - Re: Making the right stick removable (Gig Giacona)
25. 09:13 AM - Re: Where did ZBAG go? (Iberplanes IGL)
26. 09:43 AM - Re: Re: Making the right stick removable (Dave Austin)
27. 09:43 AM - Re: ZBAG, a respectful question (Dave Austin)
28. 09:51 AM - Re: Where did ZBAG go? (Gig Giacona)
29. 09:52 AM - Re: 601 HDS Price Reduced (Dave Austin)
30. 09:52 AM - Re: cowling kit (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
31. 09:56 AM - Re: Making the right stick removable (Gig Giacona)
32. 10:07 AM - Re: Forwarded: Re: [ZBAG] Re: Link to Zenair GVT Report (Dave)
33. 10:13 AM - Re: cowling kit (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
34. 10:44 AM - Re: Making the right stick removable (Sabrina)
35. 10:44 AM - Re: ZBAG, a respectful question (Jay Maynard)
36. 10:44 AM - Re: Re: Where did ZBAG go? (Jay Maynard)
37. 10:48 AM - Re: Re: cowling kit (Lawrence Webber)
38. 10:48 AM - Re: Where did ZBAG go? (William Dominguez)
39. 10:49 AM - Re: Re: Where did ZBAG go? (William Dominguez)
40. 10:49 AM - Re: Re: Where did ZBAG go? (Dave)
41. 10:54 AM - Re: cowling kit (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
42. 11:11 AM - Re: ZBAG, a respectful question (ernie)
43. 11:14 AM - Re: Re: Where did ZBAG go? (William Dominguez)
44. 11:46 AM - Re: Making the right stick removable (Mitch Hodges)
45. 11:51 AM - Re: Where did ZBAG go? (Iberplanes IGL)
46. 11:51 AM - Re: ZBAG, a respectful question (William Dominguez)
47. 11:55 AM - Re: Re: Where did ZBAG go? (Rick Lindstrom)
48. 12:12 PM - British testing (roger lambert)
49. 01:22 PM - Re: Re: Where did ZBAG go? (Dave)
50. 01:22 PM - Re: ZBAG, a respectful question (Dave)
51. 01:50 PM - Re: ZBAG, a respectful question (ernie)
52. 01:50 PM - Re: response to some questionable recommednations (Dennis Shoup)
53. 01:53 PM - Re: Re: Where did ZBAG go? (jaybannist@cs.com)
54. 02:12 PM - Re: ZBAG, a respectful question (Dave)
55. 02:25 PM - Re: ZBAG, a respectful question (ernie)
56. 02:38 PM - Re: ZBAG, a respectful question (ernie)
57. 02:57 PM - Re: response to some questionable recommednations (Juan Vega)
58. 03:08 PM - Re: New updates from Chris Heintz on the 601XL (mcjon77)
59. 03:19 PM - Re: response to some questionable recommednations (George Swinford)
60. 03:27 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. (kmccune)
61. 03:44 PM - Height of open 650 canopy (lwinger)
62. 03:57 PM - Re: Where did ZBAG go? (Gig Giacona)
63. 04:09 PM - Re: ZBAG, a respectful question (Jim Belcher)
64. 04:09 PM - Re: Re: Where did ZBAG go? (Jim Belcher)
65. 04:12 PM - Re: Re: Where did ZBAG go? (ernie)
66. 04:17 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. ()
67. 04:26 PM - Re: Where did ZBAG go? (cookwithgas)
68. 04:40 PM - Re: ZBAG, a respectful question (ernie)
69. 04:52 PM - Re: Re: Where did ZBAG go? (Dave)
70. 05:06 PM - Re: Re: Where did ZBAG go? (ernie)
71. 05:07 PM - Re: ZBAG, a respectful question (Dave)
72. 05:15 PM - Re: Where did ZBAG go? (Gig Giacona)
73. 05:18 PM - Advice about gas tanks in 601. (Gary Gower)
74. 05:37 PM - Re: Advice about gas tanks in 601. (John Davis)
75. 05:38 PM - Re: Re: Where did ZBAG go? (William Dominguez)
76. 05:41 PM - Re: Advice about gas tanks in 601. (Ashley)
77. 05:44 PM - Re: Advice about gas tanks in 601. (cookwithgas)
78. 06:05 PM - Re: Re: Where did ZBAG go? (ernie)
79. 06:05 PM - Re: Re: Where did ZBAG go? (Dave)
80. 06:11 PM - Re: Re: Making the right stick removable. (Gary Gower)
81. 06:12 PM - Re: Advice about gas tanks in 601. (LarryMcFarland)
82. 06:17 PM - Re: Re: Making the right stick removable (Paul Mulwitz)
83. 06:18 PM - Re: ZBAG, a respectful question: a modest answer (Terry Phillips)
84. 06:35 PM - Re: British testing (Paul Mulwitz)
85. 06:35 PM - Re: Re: Where did ZBAG go? (William Dominguez)
86. 06:35 PM - Re: ZBAG, a respectful question (ernie)
87. 06:35 PM - Re: Re: Where did ZBAG go? (William Dominguez)
88. 06:52 PM - Re: Advice about gas tanks in 601. (Paul Mulwitz)
89. 06:53 PM - Re: Re: Where did ZBAG go? (ernie)
90. 07:24 PM - Re: Advice about gas tanks in 601. (chuck960)
91. 07:44 PM - Re: Advice about gas tanks in 601. (Bryan Martin)
92. 07:45 PM - Re: Advice about gas tanks in 601. (Leo Gates)
93. 07:48 PM - Re: British testing (jonaburns)
94. 08:12 PM - Re: Re: British testing (Paul Mulwitz)
95. 08:17 PM - Re: ZBAG, a respectful question (Bryan Martin)
96. 08:21 PM - Re: Re: XL Testing UK (Leo Gates)
97. 08:43 PM - Re: British testing (jonaburns)
98. 09:06 PM - Re: Re: British testing (Rene)
99. 09:35 PM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 43 Msgs - 06/14/09 (ROGER CAROL WILSON)
100. 10:17 PM - Re: ZBAG, a respectful question: a modest answer (MaxNr@aol.com)
101. 10:43 PM - Re: Re: ZBAG, a respectful question: a modest answer (Paul Mulwitz)
102. 11:07 PM - Re: Quick open poll about wing failures. (John Reinking)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Quick open poll about wing failures. |
A four for me.
Bryan you may have a valid point...the reclined lazyboy seating arrangement is
likely to reduce the perception/physiology of g loading on the occupant in the
same manner that an F16's seat is reclined to ultimately increase the pilot's
g tolerance. This may cause certain people to exceed limitations based on their
perception of g loading norms in other aircraft.
While it may be a contributing factor I think that there is something else at play
with specific reference to the crashes in which the pilot was not doing anything
particularly dumb at the time (such as showboating or flying into thunderstorms
etc).
I have started building again on the assumption that any changes will be able to
be retrofitted and that it appears at last proper testing is being undertaken.
While we may have concerns about certain aspects of the the design you can't
fault Chris for making an easy to build nice little aircraft.
Cheers
James
--------
Cell +27 83 675 0815
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248402#248402
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
Good post Mitch...
The in group out group thing seems to be primarily a difference in each individual's
risk appetite.
--------
Cell +27 83 675 0815
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248404#248404
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: XL Testing UK |
JAY
The request for a design modification was made by the
LAA engineers who have to issue Permits to fly on behalf of our CAA (not
British CAA Bureaucrats, ) before the German tests were completed. These
things take time as engineering resources are limited & the home builder
had to carry out the work.
Some builders on the list were asking for a zenith
designed mod so a tested one will be available if tests are successful
As you are experimental in US it will be up to you if you carry the
work out, in UK it will probably be mandatory but XLs will be then be
released to fly.
Clive
G-CBDG 305 hrs 601HD not affected by above but it flys
much slower.
----- Original Message -----
From: jaybannist@cs.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Testing UK
Clive,
"May resolve your problems"?? Must the scientific community go back
and prove to the British CAA Bureaucrats that the world is round ?
The Zodiac XL has been load tested twice, passing both times. The German
scientists PROVED that there is NOT a flutter problem with the XL, and
yet the Brits insist on testing a solution to a problem that doesn't
exist. Is it because they didn't do the tests themselves that they have
totally disregarded all the testing that has been done on the XL ?? I
guess we MUST allow that the Brit Bureaucrats' intelligence is superior
to that of everyone else in the world. Talk about hard-headed arrogance
!!
Jay Bannister
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Clive Richards <s.clive.richards@homecall.co.uk>
To: zenith-list <zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Mon, Jun 15, 2009 4:12 am
Subject: Zenith-List: XL Testing UK
All XL Builders
From our LAA WEB SITE
Testing of Chris Heinz mods appears to be immanent and may resolve
your problems.
Clive
Permission to test fly Zenair CH 601 XL Granted by UK CAA
Following a briefing meeting at Gatwick with the CAA flutter and
structures experts, the CAA has now given permission for the LAA to
start the flight program on a modified Zenair CH601 XL fitted with
aileron mass balances and wing attachment reinforcements. This
permission temporarily exempts the aircraft from the MPD which currently
grounds the type, so that the effectiveness of the modifications can be
explored. LAA Engineering are now awaiting the arrival of the test
equipment which has been specified to record the behaviour of the
airframe during the flutter testing. Once the equipment is installed and
wired up, flight tests will explore the ASI calibration, flutter
behaviour, cg range, pitch stability and the sensitivity of the elevator
trim tab. The flight testing will take place from a farm strip near
Cambridge.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at
http://www.cs.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
GREAT Post!
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Edward Moody II <dredmoody@cox.net> wrote:
> HOOO - WHEEE! And I thought local SW LA card games were contentious! For
> the record, I've been ZBAGed as well. I think any of us who build, fly or
> even speak in support of the 601XL design will encounter some of that. No
> big deal. I'm a dentist, a political conservative, and I have Irish
> ancestors. If I can't take some heat, I'll just have to commit sideways and
> get it over with. I don't think I'll unsubscribe just yet because every now
> and then there's something entertaining and/or informative to read here.
> True, there's a lot of horsecrap but maybe there's a pony in there too, huh?
>
>
> I'm not an aeronautical engineer nor do I have lots of hours as PIC, and
> I've only built two planes and assisted on two others (they do all fly
> however, and none of them has crashed... yet), so I am not an aviation
> authority by any measure. Some of you on the list are extensively
> experienced. My greatest experience is in my genuine love of people, even
> those who are sometimes rash and discourteous. We all make such mistakes
> once in a while and what matters more is how we handle these faux pas. No
> need to have a divorce because of an arguement. How about we all Cajun up a
> bit and get some perspective? (I know it's supposd to be "Cowboy Up" but
> Texas gets enough publicity as it is). Put the knives away and sit back down
> and play cards, alright? Anybody need another beer?
>
> Here's some free advice that's worth about what you're paying for it: Don't
> get all worked up about the opinions of other people... especially
> people who hold opinions that you don't agree with. Got that? If you already
> think they're all wet, don't take them so seriously. As for the equity hit
> on our airplanes, it has already happened. It doesn't matter whether ZBAG
> had great motives or self serving ones; the negative vibe is already out
> there and it will only fade if we build and maintain and fly our planes
> properly... and honestly, the bad PR will probably still be there anyway.
> Hurling invective will not change any of that and besides, invective hurling
> was never a very fun sport to begin with.
>
> Now on the what I did today subject: Nothing with the airplane. My
> grandaughter turned 4 today so I gave her a tent and played camping games
> with her. I make very good imaginary bacon. Sunday however, I flew to the
> gulf coast and back; logged 1.5 hours; still fussing with the intake hose
> and the CHTs and EGTs at various power settings. I've got an erratic left
> tank gauge that is probably (I hope) just a bad wire or loose connection.
> It's not a big deal yet since I stick the tanks before I fly and I don't fly
> more than 2 hours at a time so far. I've got 11.6 hours on the plane and no
> bad behavior from the plane at all. I wish I had the engine behaving as well
> as the airframe but that will come in time. I didn't get this old and
> patient and wise very quickly either. What are you all laughing at?
>
> Ed
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
Great post and message Ed.- I think we need a lot more of the "what did y
ou do today" posts and a few less of the "if you don't agree with my opinio
n you must be an idiot posts."
Bill Pagan
EAA Tech Counselor #4395
601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES)
--- On Mon, 6/15/09, Edward Moody II <dredmoody@cox.net> wrote:
From: Edward Moody II <dredmoody@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repo
rt.
HOOO - WHEEE! And I thought local SW LA card games were contentious! For th
e record, I've been ZBAGed as well. I think any of us who build, fly or eve
n speak in support of the 601XL design will encounter some of that. No big
deal. I'm a dentist, a political conservative, and I have Irish ancestors.
If I can't take some heat, I'll just have to commit sideways and get it ove
r with. I don't think I'll unsubscribe just yet because every now and then
there's something entertaining and/or informative to read here. True, there
's a lot of horsecrap but maybe there's a pony in there too, huh?
-
I'm not an aeronautical engineer nor do-I have lots of hours as PIC, and
I've only built two planes and assisted on two others (they do all-fly ho
wever, and none of them has crashed... yet), so I am not an aviation author
ity by any measure. Some of you on the list are extensively experienced. My
greatest experience is in my genuine love of people, even those who are so
metimes rash and discourteous. We all make such mistakes once in a while an
d what matters more is how we handle these faux pas. No need to have a divo
rce because of an arguement. How about we all Cajun up a bit and get some p
erspective? (I know it's supposd to be "Cowboy Up" but Texas gets enough pu
blicity as it is). Put the knives away and sit back down and play cards, al
right? Anybody need another beer?
-
Here's some free advice that's worth about what you're paying for it: Don't
get all worked up about the opinions of other people... especially people
-who hold opinions that you don't agree with. Got that? If you already th
ink they're all wet, don't take them so seriously. As for the equity hit on
our airplanes, it has already happened. It doesn't matter whether ZBAG had
great motives or self serving ones; the-negative vibe is already out the
re and it will only fade if we build and-maintain and fly our planes prop
erly... and honestly, the bad PR will probably still be there anyway. Hurli
ng invective will not change any of that and besides, invective hurling was
never a very fun sport to begin with.
-
Now on the what I did today subject: Nothing with the airplane. My grandaug
hter turned 4 today so I gave her a tent and played camping games with her.
I make very good imaginary bacon. Sunday however, I flew to the gulf coast
and back; logged-1.5 hours; still fussing with the intake hose and the C
HTs and EGTs at various power settings. I've got an erratic left tank gauge
that is probably (I hope) just a bad wire or loose connection. It's not a
big deal yet since I stick the tanks before I fly and I don't fly more than
2 hours at a time so far. I've got 11.6 hours on the plane and no bad beha
vior from the plane at all. I wish I had the engine behaving as well as the
airframe but that will come in time. I didn't get this old and patient and
wise very quickly either. What are you all laughing at?
-
Ed
=0A=0A=0A
Message 6
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| Subject: | ZBAG, a respectful question |
My question is directed to anyone who has design questions regarding the 601XL.
What evidence would it take to prove to you the 601XL is free of flutter?
Regards,
Kevin Kinney
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248420#248420
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG, a respectful question |
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 06:03:50AM -0700, kkinney wrote:
> My question is directed to anyone who has design questions regarding the
> 601XL.
>
> What evidence would it take to prove to you the 601XL is free of flutter?
As far as I'm concerned, it's been proven.
That's only one aspect of the design, however. It would take similar studies
of the Zodiac's structure, not just sandbags piled on the wing, but a
complete evaluation of the design from a structural viewpoint, both static
and dynamic, with fully published results, to resolve my concern that
there's a problem somewhere.
Zenair has finally started to do the right thing. They should finish the
job.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 8
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Hi listers
does anyone have any pictures of the WW/Weseman cowling kit
installed on their aircraft ? trying to compare apples to apples
close pics would be good thanks in advance
Larry Webber 601xl/corvair chugger
_________________________________________________________________
Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that=92s right for you.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report |
Well I guess if you don't follow the party line you don't get to read ZBAG. It
seems to be gone this morning from my Yahoo groups list.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248423#248423
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Making the right stick removable |
The whole leave the stick for an untrained pilot vs remove the right stick when
an untrained pilot is in the seat is a matter of personal choice and comes down
to a threat assessment.
If the chance of the person in the right seat causing a problem is greater than
the chances the guy in the left seat will become incapacitated PLUS the person
in the right seat being able land then logically the stick should be removed.
I'm thinking first time passengers with little or no light aircraft experience
tend to push it that way.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248426#248426
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Larry,
Ask and you shall receive.
http://peoamerica.net/N601WR/html/engine.html
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248427#248427
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG, a respectful question |
No aircraft made is flutter free. The GVT test show it is a solid design..
KEEP BUILDING ;)
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:17 AM, Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 06:03:50AM -0700, kkinney wrote:
> > My question is directed to anyone who has design questions regarding the
> > 601XL.
> >
> > What evidence would it take to prove to you the 601XL is free of flutter?
>
> As far as I'm concerned, it's been proven.
>
> That's only one aspect of the design, however. It would take similar
> studies
> of the Zodiac's structure, not just sandbags piled on the wing, but a
> complete evaluation of the design from a structural viewpoint, both static
> and dynamic, with fully published results, to resolve my concern that
> there's a problem somewhere.
>
> Zenair has finally started to do the right thing. They should finish the
> job.
> --
> Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
> http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
> Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
> AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Where did ZBAG go? |
As I mentioned in another post ZBAG wasn't on my list of Yahoo Groups this AM.
But I can't find it at all on Yahoo now.
http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=ZBAG
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248433#248433
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
Back into the hole from which it crawled?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248438#248438
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
The group is still in the same place it have always been. As you suspected
in your previous email, you've been banned and it was not because you "didn
't follow the party line" as you suggested in your previous email. There's
not such a thing as a party line in the group, I think you know pretty well
why if you read my answer to one of your last post. If you still don't kno
w why, let me know off line so spare this list from this.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Where did ZBAG go?
As I mentioned in another post ZBAG wasn't on my list of Yahoo Groups this
AM. But I can't find it at all on Yahoo now.
http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=ZBAG
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248433#248433
le, List Admin.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Making the right stick removable |
On Tuesday 16 June 2009 08:37, Gig Giacona wrote:
>
> The whole leave the stick for an untrained pilot vs remove the right stick
> when an untrained pilot is in the seat is a matter of personal choice and
> comes down to a threat assessment.
>
> If the chance of the person in the right seat causing a problem is greater
> than the chances the guy in the left seat will become incapacitated PLUS
> the person in the right seat being able land then logically the stick
> should be removed.
>
> I'm thinking first time passengers with little or no light aircraft
> experience tend to push it that way.
I'd agree. I suspect the need, or lack thereof, is driven by individual
situations. I'm not concerned about my wife, who is also a pilot, and usually
flies in slacks of some sort. I am concerned about modesty issues with other
female passengers wearing a dress or skirt.
I'm also concerned that with a second stick there is one more exposed thing in
the cockpit that can get something jammed in it. While using a stub of some
sort and an upper stick that fits in it doesn't totally eliminate this, it
should reduce the hazzard some. When I'm solo, I like to fly with my charts,
snacks, and water bottle, on the right seat.
Hmm. I wonder if I could come up with a box of some sort that fits over the
stub of the stick, and further reduce the problem. I must think about that
one.
Thus far, listening to the ideas expressed, I'm leaning towards the "one tube
inside another" idea, rather than my original screw-on concept. I'm not
worried about needing to disconnect a mike or control switch mounted on the
passenger stick, as I don't plan to have one. I don't really have a
requirement for it, and it's one more set of connections that can get loose
and require troubleshooting.
But all this reflects my personal tastes and approach to flying. In part, I
think that's why we build our own airplanes, so we can have them to meet our
own needs.
By the same logic of personal taste, I never did care for Chris Heinz center
stick controller. It just doesn't seem to match the way I fly. But I don't
care for a sidestick controller either. The one time I tried one, it just
didn't work for me. Some guys love 'em - which is great for them.
--
=============================================
You can check on my aircraft construction
progress at: http://www.mykitlog.com/santaigo
================================================
Jim B. Belcher
BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Instrument Rated Pilot
General Radio Telephone Certificate
Retired Aerospace Technical Manager
================================================
--
============================================
Do not archive.
============================================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
============================================
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 07:36:21AM -0700, cookwithgas wrote:
> Back into the hole from which it crawled?
How about doing the same, and letting those of us who actually care about
the safety of our aircraft get on with it?
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG, a respectful question |
Hi Kevin,
I believe the XL is free of flutter problems. The German testing
confirms that notion.
Alas, that says exactly nothing about the safety of the XL
design. It merely confirms that aileron flutter is not the cause of
all the fatal events with this unfortunate design.
Paul
XL grounded
do not archive
At 06:03 AM 6/16/2009, you wrote:
>
>My question is directed to anyone who has design questions regarding
>the 601XL.
>
>What evidence would it take to prove to you the 601XL is free of flutter?
>
>Regards,
>Kevin Kinney
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG, a respectful question |
No aircraft, ever, none... Wow! Kinda puts all those idiot engineers in
their place. Glad we're going to solve the potential by ignoring it.
Thanks Ernie.
----- Original Message -----
From: ernie
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: ZBAG, a respectful question
No aircraft made is flutter free. The GVT test show it is a solid
design.. KEEP BUILDING ;)
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
Hmmmmmmmmmmm......that's interesting William.- If thats the way ZBAG choo
ses to operate please ban me from the group as well.
-
Regards,
Bill Pagan
EAA Tech Counselor #4395
601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES)
--- On Tue, 6/16/09, William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where did ZBAG go?
The group is still in the same place it have always been. As you suspected
in your previous email, you've been banned and it was not because you "didn
't follow the party line" as you suggested in your previous email. There's
not such a thing as a party line in the group, I think you know pretty well
why if you read my answer to one of your last post. If you still don't kno
w why, let me know off line so spare this list from this.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Where did ZBAG go?
As I mentioned in another post ZBAG wasn't on my list of Yahoo Groups this
AM. But I can't find it at all on Yahoo now.
http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=ZBAG
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronicssp;---> http============
============ http://www.matronics.com/contribut=
=============
=0A=0A=0A
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG, a respectful question |
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 07:58:15AM -0700, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
> I believe the XL is free of flutter problems. The German testing confirms
> that notion.
>
> Alas, that says exactly nothing about the safety of the XL design.
I disagree: saying that the aircraft is not susceptible to aileron flutter
with tension on the cables is a significant statement about its safety. It
just doesn't say *everything* that needs to be said about it.
> It merely confirms that aileron flutter is not the cause of all the fatal
> events with this unfortunate design.
That's a little strong. The design is, overall, quite sound. That there may
be an unrevealed flaw (the jury is very much still out on that one) does not
mean that it's "unfortunate".
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Forwarded: Re: [ZBAG] Re: Link to Zenair GVT Report |
I don't know if Gig saw this before he was removed from the ZBAG list, and
the comments apply here.
----- Forwarded message from Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com> -----
From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
Subject: Re: [ZBAG] Re: Link to Zenair GVT Report
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 07:27:40PM -0000, gig_jess wrote:
> Anti ZBAG hysteria? Really? I think it is a matter of those of us that are
> willing to take "No, there isn't a problem" for an answer as opposed to
> those who only request more evidence once they get the evidence they asked
> for and it doesn't fit in their preconceived idea of what the problem is.
I think there's not enough overall evidence to be able to definitively say
"no, there's not a problem" yet. Unlike some folks, I do accept that there's
not a flutter issue with aileron cables that have any tension at all on
them. (I do think we'll wind up with balance weights anyway, however, to
satisfy the government.) Has every suspected failure mode been analyzed yet?
I'll be satisfied that there's not a design flaw when all of the theories
that explain the observed facts have been tested, and none show a design
issue. Until then, "pilot error" is just too pat an answer.
> Go back and reread the messages in this forum. Everybody was sure it was
> flutter. The GVT was demanded by those on this list. Got it, results were
> NO and it didn't change a thing. Well, that's not true there were several
> new threads with lists of additional half-baked ideas for modifications
> for imagined problems.
I think most folks here do indeed accept that flutter is not the answer. We
seized on it as an explanation because 1) it explained the observed
failures, 2) it was indeed a possibility, and 3) nobody had ever run real
tests on it before. GVT was needed to confirm it or rule it out. Well, since
it's ruled it out, we need another explanation.
> And Jay, I'm a little disappointed in you. I asked you in a conversation
> in Matronics if you could reproduce the G induced elevator issue and if so
> is it something that you could train someone to deal with. I never got an
> answer to that.
I apologize; I saw your message, made a mental note to reply when I could
sit down and explore the question, and then real life intervened.
As I understand it, the issue is that the elevator stick force gradient
curve gets shallower, not steeper, above about 3.2 G. The curve under
discussion is a relation between how much force the pilot applies to the
stick and how many Gs the aircraft is pulling. Normally, the stick force
required to pull more G increases monotonically as the G force on the
aircraft increases. The NTSB claims that the stick force required to pull
additional G becomes less, rather than more, at 3.2 G positive. I have never
reached that condition, because I've never even pulled 2 G in my airplane,
and have no intention of doing so. (Positive Gs make me urp. Spin training
for my CFI-SP was a struggle.) The curve never goes negative, so the
aircraft is not divergent in pitch (if it were, there would be some point at
which the stick would not work as the pilot expects, and things go quickly
pear-shaped then).
Could I train someone to deal with it? I doubt I could, personally, simply
because I couldn't get into that situation in the first place without
becoming seriously airsick. Could a generic CFI do so? Probably; the big
problem is recognizing you're in that situation and dealing with it
correctly. Frankly, though, I don't see anyone pulling more than 3 G in a
Zodiac unless they're doing aerobatic maneuvers...and we all know how much
of an aerobatic airplane the Zodiac is not. It's a condition the NTSB
mentioned, and so will likely get some form of addressing. I don't think
it's a condition the average pilot will ever see. I also don't think it's
the proximate cause of Zodiac accidents.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
William,
Since I can't get to it will you please be so kind as to copy and paste me the
post that offended you so much?
And I believe the post was in response to Jay M. So I will ask Jay, were you offended?
[quote="William Dominguez"]The group is still in the same place it have always
been. As you suspected in your previous email, you've been banned and it was not
because you "didn't follow the party line" as you suggested in your previous
email. There's not such a thing as a party line in the group, I think you know
pretty well why if you read my answer to one of your last post. If you still
don't know why, let me know off line so spare this list from this.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Gig Giacona wrote:
>
> From: Gig Giacona
> Subject: Where did ZBAG go?
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 10:11 AM
>
>
> As I mentioned in another post ZBAG wasn't on my list of Yahoo Groups this AM.
But I can't find it at all on Yahoo now.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=ZBAG (http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=ZBAG)
>
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronicssp; --> http========================http://www.matronics.com/contribut==============
>
>
>
>
>
> [b]
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248450#248450
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Making the right stick removable |
The Y-Stick was a non-starter for me. If I had it I would have to fly from the
right seat if I was anywhere near controlled airspace where I may have to write
something down. Because while I can fly with either hand I can't write with
my left at all and I really didn't like the idea of having to reach across with
my left hand to fly and and write a note at the same time. But that's just me.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248454#248454
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
Works just fine to me. LOL
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZBAG/
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
----------------------------------------------
Zodiac 601 XL Builder
Serial: 6-7011
Tail Kit: Finished
Wings: Not Started
Fuselage: @ home
Engine: Jabiru 3300
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Making the right stick removable |
Safer if you don't go flying at all. This is getting rediculous.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG, a respectful question |
I used to work for Canadair, back in the days when they were building the
F86 and the Argus subhunter.
They used the sandbag technique for load testing. Should they have gone
further?
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 07:27:40PM -0000, gig_jess wrote:
> Quote:
> Anti ZBAG hysteria? Really? I think it is a matter of those of us that are
> willing to take "No, there isn't a problem" for an answer as opposed to
> those who only request more evidence once they get the evidence they asked
> for and it doesn't fit in their preconceived idea of what the problem is.
>
> Go back and reread the messages in this forum. Everybody was sure it was
> flutter. The GVT was demanded by those on this list. Got it, results were
> NO and it didn't change a thing. Well, that's not true there were several
> new threads with lists of additional half-baked ideas for modifications
> for imagined problems.
>
> And Jay, I'm a little disappointed in you. I asked you in a conversation
> in Matronics if you could reproduce the G induced elevator issue and if so
> is it something that you could train someone to deal with. I never got an
> answer to that.
Thanks to Jay's post in another thread I have a copy of what got me locked out
of ZBAG. There it is above. What exactly offended you ZBAGers so much?
For a group who's primary mission is to find fault with a design you sure seem
pretty thin skinned when someone finds fault with you.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248464#248464
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: 601 HDS Price Reduced |
Brandon,
It was good to have you on the list. Not good that you have to sell the
plane.
Be safe.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
Message 30
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This is the new 2 piece cowling ... I am finishing up the lower part
tonight and the cost
is $700.00 msg me off list if interested.
**************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy
Steps!
eExcfooterNO62)
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Making the right stick removable |
daveaustin2(at)primus.ca wrote:
> Safer if you don't go flying at all. This is getting rediculous.
> Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
I disagree Dave there's nothing ridiculous about it. I plan to have Young Eagles
in my 601. Some of them have handicaps where having a stick between their legs
could be either impossible or at best unwise. I also have a friend who will
fly with me from time to time but only for short flights because of his ample
girth and the associated reduction in weight available for gas. I'm not sure
the plane would even be controllable with him in the right seat if the stick isn't
removable.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248469#248469
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Forwarded: Re: [ZBAG] Re: Link to Zenair GVT Report |
Hi Jay; I don't think I'd go quite that far. The flutter analysis via GVT
was worthwhile and to be honest I think the proof rather than the assurances
of the designer were needed. But to test for and exhaust ALL theories might
be a little too long-reaching. I'd be ok with casually exploring any
"reasonably likely" scenarios and flutter certainly seemed to fit the bill.
I think at this point some likely scenarios have been stopped with the small
recommended modifications that are now part of the design. Maybe the
accidents will now stop. I would have a hard time buying into the pilot
error reason in any big way, it's just too easy and if it were truly the
case it should have affected other aircraft to a similar degree as there's
no reason to think XL pilots as a group are any more careless than the
general population.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Maynard" <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
> I think there's not enough overall evidence to be able to definitively say
> "no, there's not a problem" yet. Unlike some folks, I do accept that
> there's
> not a flutter issue with aileron cables that have any tension at all on
> them. (I do think we'll wind up with balance weights anyway, however, to
> satisfy the government.) Has every suspected failure mode been analyzed
> yet?
>
> I'll be satisfied that there's not a design flaw when all of the theories
> that explain the observed facts have been tested, and none show a design
> issue. Until then, "pilot error" is just too pat an answer.
>
Message 33
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This is the new 2 piece cowling ... I am finishing up the lower part
tonight and the cost
is $700.00 msg me off list if interested.
**************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy
Steps!
eExcfooterNO62)
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Making the right stick removable |
My flight school instructed in an HDS (before I was there.) There does not seem
to be a problem with a fully aft CG loaded HDS having sensitivity to sudden
stick inputs. XL winged craft do. If the XL is loaded to full aft CG and someone
sneezes while holding the stick firmly, depending how they pull and or
push the stick, normal category max Gs can be approached.
Passenger pre-flight instruction is key here. Removing the second stick is a good
idea. I have even toyed with the idea of cutting the sticks and installing
a rubber isolating bushing between the upper and lower portions of both sticks.
My stick quadrants that I originally designed impart larger forces as one
pushes the stick towards its limits, but does little to dampen a quick short
yet forceful input.
This bushing would isolate the elevator from rapid, short, unintended stick movement.
It is clear that the XL elevator is experiencing forces beyond which
it was originally designed, otherwise the elevator horn reinforcement and AS5
rivets would not have been specified by Zenith.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248478#248478
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG, a respectful question |
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 12:39:51PM -0400, Dave Austin wrote:
> I used to work for Canadair, back in the days when they were building the
> F86 and the Argus subhunter.
> They used the sandbag technique for load testing. Should they have gone
> further?
In those days, they didn't have the advanced numerical analysis tools
available to aeronautical engineers now. They also tested to destruction.
Zenair has, to the best of my knowledge (which may be incorrect), done
neither until the GVT-supported flutter analysis.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 09:50:50AM -0700, Gig Giacona wrote:
> Thanks to Jay's post in another thread I have a copy of what got me locked
> out of ZBAG. There it is above. What exactly offended you ZBAGers so much?
For the record, I was not offended.
> For a group who's primary mission is to find fault with a design you sure
> seem pretty thin skinned when someone finds fault with you.
We've been unjustifiably slammed so hard, so often, and so repeatedly by the
same tiny bach of malcontents who can't conceive that the sainted Chris
Heintz could have made even the tiniest mistake that we're twitchy about it.
The primary mission of ZBAG is not to find fault with the design. The
primary mission of ZBAG is to find out why Zodiacs keep breaking up in
flight. See the difference? That kind of misstatement, even though it's been
repeatedly corrected, is over the line.
I don't believe that finding fault with ZBAG for trying to get to the bottom
of the issue is justified, necessary, or helpful. All it does is split the
Zodiac community down the middle. Nothing good can come of it.
Instead of finding fault with those of us who just want answers -
documented, verifiable, defensible, *provable* answers, not just uninformed
blaming of the pilots involved, which is all we get from Juan and Scott,
among others, to justify their hazardous attitude of invulnerability ("it
won't happen to me") - why not work to come up with an answer that's
supported by more than guesses?
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 37
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Thanks to all for the quick response on cowl pics
my questions are resolved
Larry Webber 601xl
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: cowling kit
> From: wrgiacona@gmail.com
> Date: Tue=2C 16 Jun 2009 06:39:17 -0700
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Larry=2C
>
> Ask and you shall receive.
>
> http://peoamerica.net/N601WR/html/engine.html
>
> --------
> W.R. "=3BGig"=3B Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248427#248427
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that=92s right for you.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
If you no longer want to be part of the group, it is not difficult four you
to remove yourself. If you want me to ban you, just violate the usage guid
elines (I will re-post them soon) and you will be banned.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Bill Pagan <pdn8r@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Bill Pagan <pdn8r@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where did ZBAG go?
Hmmmmmmmmmmm......that's interesting William.- If thats the way ZBAG choo
ses to operate please ban me from the group as well.=0A-=0ARegards,
Bill Pagan
EAA Tech Counselor #4395
601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES)
--- On Tue, 6/16/09, William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com> wrote:
=0A
From: William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where did ZBAG go?
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AThe group is still in the same place it have always been. As
you suspected in your previous email, you've been banned and it was not be
cause you "didn't follow the party line" as you suggested in your previous
email. There's not such a thing as a party line in the group, I think you k
now pretty well why if you read my answer to one of your last post. If you
still don't know why, let me know off line so spare this list from this.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com> wrote:
=0A
From: Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Where did ZBAG go?
As I mentioned in another post ZBAG wasn't on my list of Yahoo Groups this
AM. But I can't find it at all on Yahoo now.
http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=ZBAG
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronicssp;---> http============
============ http://www.matronics.com/contribut=
=============
arget=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-Lis
t
=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com
blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=0A=0A =0A
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
Gig, why do you want to be part of the group anyway? When you have answered
that question to yourself you'll be close to the reason why I removed you.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 07:27:40PM -0000, gig_jess wrote:
> Quote:
> Anti ZBAG hysteria? Really? I think it is a matter of those of us that ar
e
> willing to take "No, there isn't a problem" for an answer as opposed to
> those who only request more evidence once they get the evidence they aske
d
> for and it doesn't fit in their preconceived idea of what the problem is.
>-
> Go back and reread the messages in this forum. Everybody was sure it was
> flutter. The GVT was demanded by those on this list. Got it, results were
> NO and it didn't change a thing. Well, that's not true there were several
> new threads with lists of additional half-baked ideas for modifications
> for imagined problems.
>
> And Jay, I'm a little disappointed in you. I asked you in a conversation
> in Matronics if you could reproduce the G induced elevator issue and if s
o
> is it something that you could train someone to deal with. I never got an
> answer to that.
Thanks to Jay's post in another thread I have a copy of what got me locked
out of ZBAG. There it is above. What exactly offended you ZBAGers so much?
For a group who's primary mission is to find fault with a design you sure s
eem pretty thin skinned when someone finds fault with you.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248464#248464
le, List Admin.
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
Gig, you said it yourself. the group as I understand it is to examine
possible explanations for the incidents in an effort to make their aircraft
safer. (which I understand you interpret as a mission to trash the aircraft
completely) It appears to me that you were likely not there for that reason.
Many places do not allow what they percieve as disruptive inflences.
I'm not sure what goes on there as I'm not a member, but I guess you could
start your own Yahoo club and lock the door on anyone who thinks there may
be some issues but I think the better idea would be to allow them to do
their thing in peace, hell knows they may eventually find something.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 1:50 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
>
>
>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 07:27:40PM -0000, gig_jess wrote:
>> Quote:
>> Anti ZBAG hysteria? Really? I think it is a matter of those of us that
>> are
>> willing to take "No, there isn't a problem" for an answer as opposed to
>> those who only request more evidence once they get the evidence they
>> asked
>> for and it doesn't fit in their preconceived idea of what the problem is.
>>
>> Go back and reread the messages in this forum. Everybody was sure it was
>> flutter. The GVT was demanded by those on this list. Got it, results were
>> NO and it didn't change a thing. Well, that's not true there were several
>> new threads with lists of additional half-baked ideas for modifications
>> for imagined problems.
>>
>> And Jay, I'm a little disappointed in you. I asked you in a conversation
>> in Matronics if you could reproduce the G induced elevator issue and if
>> so
>> is it something that you could train someone to deal with. I never got an
>> answer to that.
>
>
> Thanks to Jay's post in another thread I have a copy of what got me locked
> out of ZBAG. There it is above. What exactly offended you ZBAGers so much?
>
> For a group who's primary mission is to find fault with a design you sure
> seem pretty thin skinned when someone finds fault with you.
>
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248464#248464
>
>
>
Message 41
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This is the new 2 piece cowling ... I am finishing up the lower part
tonight and the cost
is $700.00 msg me off list if interested.
**************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy
Steps!
eExcfooterNO62)
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG, a respectful question |
Dave
sorry i hurt your feelings.
Even the NTSB said something like flutter mitigation, not flutter free. If
it was the keep build comment that hurt your feelings, I think it is the
right thing to do it is not ignoring anything
E.
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Dave <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> No aircraft, ever, none... Wow! Kinda puts all those idiot engineers in
> their place. Glad we're going to solve the potential by ignoring it. Thanks
> Ernie.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* ernie <ernieth@gmail.com>
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 16, 2009 10:38 AM
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: ZBAG, a respectful question
>
> No aircraft made is flutter free. The GVT test show it is a solid design..
> KEEP BUILDING ;)
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
You got it Dave! and you explained much better than I would have. That is w
hy I asked him to answer himself the question why he wanted to be there. He
would have realized that he was not there for the reasons the list was cre
ated for in the first place.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Dave <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
From: Dave <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
Gig, you said it yourself. the group as I understand it is to examine possi
ble explanations for the incidents in an effort to make their aircraft safe
r. (which I understand you interpret as a mission to trash the aircraft com
pletely) It appears to me that you were likely not there for that reason. M
any places do not allow what they percieve as disruptive inflences.
I'm not sure what goes on there as I'm not a member, but I guess you could
start your own Yahoo club and lock the door on anyone who thinks there may
be some issues but I think the better idea would be to allow them to do the
ir thing in peace, hell knows they may eventually find something.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 1:50 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
>
>
>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 07:27:40PM -0000, gig_jess wrote:
>> Quote:
>> Anti ZBAG hysteria? Really? I think it is a matter of those of us that a
re
>> willing to take "No, there isn't a problem" for an answer as opposed to
>> those who only request more evidence once they get the evidence they ask
ed
>> for and it doesn't fit in their preconceived idea of what the problem is
..
>>
>> Go back and reread the messages in this forum. Everybody was sure it was
>> flutter. The GVT was demanded by those on this list. Got it, results wer
e
>> NO and it didn't change a thing. Well, that's not true there were severa
l
>> new threads with lists of additional half-baked ideas for modifications
>> for imagined problems.
>>
>> And Jay, I'm a little disappointed in you. I asked you in a conversation
>> in Matronics if you could reproduce the G induced elevator issue and if
so
>> is it something that you could train someone to deal with. I never got a
n
>> answer to that.
>
>
> Thanks to Jay's post in another thread I have a copy of what got me locke
d out of ZBAG. There it is above. What exactly offended you ZBAGers so much
?
>
> For a group who's primary mission is to find fault with a design you sure
seem pretty thin skinned when someone finds fault with you.
>
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248464#248464
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
le, List Admin.
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Making the right stick removable |
Gig Giacona wrote:
> The Y-Stick was a non-starter for me.... while I can fly with either hand I can't
write with my left at all.
Just goes to show we all have our needs, one of the reasons I liked it is because
I am left handed and it made it easier to exactly what you say you struggle
with for me!
I've given further thought to this, and if I wasn't doing the center stick, I believe
I would make mine removable after all, for maintenance purposes and for
flight just to have the option where a stick on the right side just isn't worth
the risk. That's what the BRS is for anyway.
--------
Mitch Hodges
N601MH (Zenith 601HDS)
Builder Log at http://www.hodges.aero
Wings Under Perpetual Construction
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248502#248502
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
as far as I know you=B4ve received personal emails from the moderator to ca
lm
down and respect the list. After all, you were the only member flaming the
list.
Good luck to you, Gig.
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
----------------------------------------------
Zodiac 601 XL Builder
Serial: 6-7011
Tail Kit: Finished
Wings: Not Started
Fuselage: @ home
Engine: Jabiru 3300
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG, a respectful question |
What evidence would it take to prove to you the 601XL is free of flutter?
For me the most important thing is not to find evidence that the Zodiac is
flutter free or flutter prone. The most important thing is to find a soluti
on that will avoid this type of accident in the future. The evidence will b
e in the record, when this type of accident rate have come down to normal l
evel compared to similar designs, that will be evidence that the problem wa
s resolved. If they keep happening at same or higher rate, it will be evide
nce that we still have a problem.
Having said that, I don't accept that the plane is a dangerous one. If my p
lane would be ready today I would fly it. The structural failure rate for t
he XL is less than 2 percent of the fleet. Higher than other similar design
s but not high enough to be considered dangerous. After all, most pilot fly
ing XLs today have a higher risk of getting a stroke or a heart attack than
getting a wing folded during flight. Of course, this is assuming that they
fly as intended.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
--- On Tue, 6/16/09, kkinney <kkinney@fuse.net> wrote:
From: kkinney <kkinney@fuse.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: ZBAG, a respectful question
My question is directed to anyone who has design questions regarding the 60
1XL.-
What evidence would it take to prove to you the 601XL is free of flutter?
Regards,
Kevin Kinney
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248420#248420
le, List Admin.
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
Hi, Jay. Permit me to comment on a couple of things...
>We've been unjustifiably slammed so hard, so often, and so repeatedly by the
>same tiny bach of malcontents who can't conceive that the sainted Chris
>Heintz could have made even the tiniest mistake that we're twitchy about it.
My understanding is that the 601XL was originally conceived with slower speeds
and a bit less horsepower in mind. Flying the airplane faster (well beyond Va)
with more powerful engines opens the door to a whole new set of operational considerations.
At that point, it's the pilot, not the designer, who is assuming
the lion's share of responsibility for safe operation (as it always should be).
However, the manufacturer should anticipate that some builders will always
want more power and better performance, and should consider that in the mix.
>Instead of finding fault with those of us who just want answers -
>documented, verifiable, defensible, *provable* answers, not just uninformed
>blaming of the pilots involved...
There's a disturbing upward tick in LSA accidents recently, and the common thread
seems to be aging pilots who have flown Part 23 certified airplanes their entire
lives transitioning into LSAs. This isn't limited to the 601, either. The
recent crash of the EcoFlyer prototype returning from SnF underscores what happens
when an experienced pilot challenges rough air in an airplane built far
differently from the aircraft he's typically flown. Personally, I'd like to see
more LSA transition training for pilots new to these light airplanes.
And by the way, what is this "tiny bach" you refer to? Are we talking about a dwarf
composer? ;-)
Rick Lindstrom
N42KP
Message 48
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The following might be of interest to you. This is the reply from the LAA t
o
my inquiry about the purposes and parameters of the upcoming testing.
"If I may expand very briefly. Firstly, there have been no cases of wing
failure in the UK involving 601XL aircraft, there has been a failure of the
three piece wing which lead to discussions about the light stick force per
g. This failure was a clear overload failure and (I appreciate that it is
impossible to be 100% sure) evidence from witnesses suggest strongly that
the pilot =91pulled the wings off=92. Clearly we are not happy that this c
an
happen and other (worldwide) failures appear to point to two principle area
s
of concern; 1. pilot training for sport type aircraft and 2. the low stick
force per g. We will be making recommendations about light pitch control
forces, based on experience gained with this incident, when we issue the mo
d
kit to update XL=92s.
When the AD grounding the CH 601 XL was issued in Holland we discussed
whether we should follow suit, we decided not to do this as it was
effectively an unknown machine operating within a completely different
regulatory environment. We were quite surprised when Zenair Europe
published a Factory AD requiring =91validation=92 of the control cable tens
ions
because, at low tensions, flutter had been reported. As you may know we
recommended that the aircraft be grounded on the strength of this.
As an organisation we decided to do a re-validation exercise on the primary
structure and found one or two areas that we were not happy with, hence the
wing mods. What we have never said is that the aircraft is not strong
enough, only that it doesn=92t meet our requirements fully in some areas.
We
have never connected the structural failures reported worldwide with the UK
grounding, because they are not connected*.* The LAA system for Permit
aircraft is, whilst slower than some entrepreneur=92s would like, very
robust. I say all this because we are certainly not going to fly the
aircraft to different loads until it breaks, we can find this braking point
with a pen and paper, and, we know that the mass balance will prevent
aileron flutter (even at light cable tensions), so we don=92t need a
=91baseline=92 here.
As soon as the aircraft is successfully test flown we will approve the mod
kit and start the process of getting chaps back in the air. It will be up
to others to determine reasons for other accidents worldwide."
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
Ahh, humor! I remember that! "tiny bach" composes classic ringtones.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Lindstrom" <tigerrick@mindspring.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
> And by the way, what is this "tiny bach" you refer to? Are we talking
> about a dwarf composer? ;-)
>
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG, a respectful question |
Not to worry, feelings intact. I just find absolute declarations of a
defect or the lack thereof are not helpful. I have never experienced
flutter in anything so the absolute declaration of no aircraft being
free to be a little odd. I suppose it could happen, but then there's be
all that s**t to clean up.
----- Original Message -----
From: ernie
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: ZBAG, a respectful question
Dave
sorry i hurt your feelings.
Even the NTSB said something like flutter mitigation, not flutter
free.
If it was the keep build comment that hurt your feelings, I think it
is the right thing to do it is not ignoring anything
E.
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Dave <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca>
wrote:
No aircraft, ever, none... Wow! Kinda puts all those idiot engineers
in their place. Glad we're going to solve the potential by ignoring it.
Thanks Ernie.
----- Original Message -----
From: ernie
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: ZBAG, a respectful question
No aircraft made is flutter free. The GVT test show it is a solid
design.. KEEP BUILDING ;)
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG, a respectful question |
Dave,Sorry that you do like absolute
declarations. I have not been on a bridge that has fallen down but I
know ALL bridges will.
E
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Dave <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Not to worry, feelings intact. I just find absolute declarations of a
> defect or the lack thereof are not helpful. I have never experienced flutter
> in anything so the absolute declaration of no aircraft being free to be a
> little odd. I suppose it could happen, but then there's be all that s**t to
> clean up.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* ernie <ernieth@gmail.com>
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 16, 2009 2:58 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: ZBAG, a respectful question
>
> Dave
> sorry i hurt your feelings.
> Even the NTSB said something like flutter mitigation, not flutter free. If
> it was the keep build comment that hurt your feelings, I think it is the
> right thing to do it is not ignoring anything
>
> E.
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Dave <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>> No aircraft, ever, none... Wow! Kinda puts all those idiot engineers in
>> their place. Glad we're going to solve the potential by ignoring it. Thanks
>> Ernie.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* ernie <ernieth@gmail.com>
>> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 16, 2009 10:38 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: ZBAG, a respectful question
>>
>> No aircraft made is flutter free. The GVT test show it is a solid design..
>> KEEP BUILDING ;)
>>
>> *
>>
>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c*
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: response to some questionable recommednations |
Actually SWAG is "Scientific Wild Ass Guess"
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Juan Vega <amyvega2005@earthlink.net>wrote:
>
> All;
>
> the following a godd attempt at SWAG.(shit wild ass guess)
>
> MaxNr@aol.com wrote:
>
> > I say:
> >
> > 4
> >
> > To blame EVERY in flight break up on pilot error is reprehensible.
> > The general consensus that I picked up on this list is that the
> > ULTIMATE load for this air craft should now be three G's. Even the
> > most ardent supporters (those that vote "1") make frequent remarks
> > such as "He did a 3 G pull up and the wing failed." Following the
> > crowd, I suggest that the new Matronics consensus limitation (3G
> > ultimate) be observed.
> >
> > That would make the new normal load = 2 G. That means that the Vn
> > diagram must be redrawn. A new Va would result. Furthermore, tried
> > and true flutter mitigation measures are invalid. FAR 23.629 is
> > junk. If so, is AC 43.13b also? Bernoulli is dead. Consensus rules!
> > What do I know, I'm just a washed up ancient aviator that hangs out
> > with retired aerodynamicists and old AI's? I must follow the herd.
> >
>
>
> THE FACTS;
>
> Manauvering speed and max G load changes with certain variables, gross
> weight, speed, temperature outside, Pressure Altitude
> on a standard temp day, if you fly the plane at full gross, you will
> exceed design loads below the max manauavering speeds.
> The standard design model has a given Max G load for a given weight and
> speed. Change the variables such as described above will yield a SNAFU
> situation.
> I have looped the plane and done 4 G pulls, provided I had only 10 gallons
> of gas (60lbs) and only me in the plane(220 lbs). To do the same with two
> guys and full fuel would be stupid.
>
> That is what some of the guys flying the 601 just do not get. Not even a
> stunt pilot flying an EXTRA 300 loaded for 10 Gs would do stunts in a fully
> loaded aircraft, and that is what those planes are desinged for.
>
> So ignore the BullS___t statements. Fly the plane within the specs, fly
> a well maintained plane, and you will be fine.
> DO you fly at 130 mph on a hot day with nasty thermals and convection goin
> on? Only the dip shits will. Regardless of the plane flown.
>
> Juan Vega
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
> >Sent: Jun 15, 2009 6:46 PM
> >To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Quick open poll about wing failures.
> >
> >
> >
> >I have to assume you're joking. I've pulled four Gs in mine at gross
> >weight during phase 1 testing with no problem at all. The Zodiac will
> >not shed its wings at three Gs unless you've got it grossly
> >overloaded. or didn't bother to install the wing bolts.
> >
> >On Jun 15, 2009, at 1:56 PM, MaxNr@aol.com wrote:
> >
> >> I say:
> >>
> >> 4
> >>
> >> To blame EVERY in flight break up on pilot error is reprehensible.
> >> The general consensus that I picked up on this list is that the
> >> ULTIMATE load for this air craft should now be three G's. Even the
> >> most ardent supporters (those that vote "1") make frequent remarks
> >> such as "He did a 3 G pull up and the wing failed." Following the
> >> crowd, I suggest that the new Matronics consensus limitation (3G
> >> ultimate) be observed.
> >>
> >> That would make the new normal load = 2 G. That means that the Vn
> >> diagram must be redrawn. A new Va would result. Furthermore, tried
> >> and true flutter mitigation measures are invalid. FAR 23.629 is
> >> junk. If so, is AC 43.13b also? Bernoulli is dead. Consensus rules!
> >> What do I know, I'm just a washed up ancient aviator that hangs out
> >> with retired aerodynamicists and old AI's? I must follow the herd.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >Bryan Martin
> >N61BM, CH 601 XL,
> >RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
> >do not archive.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 53
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick@mindspring.com>
>There's a disturbing upward tick in LSA accidents recently, and the common
>thread seems to be aging pilots who have flown Part 23 certified airplanes their
>entire lives transitioning into LSAs. This isn't limited to the 601, either. The
>recent crash of the EcoFlyer prototype returning from SnF underscores what
>happens when an experienced pilot challenges rough air in an airplane built far
>different from the aircraft he's typically flown. Personally, I'd like to see
>more LSA transition training for pilots new to these light airplanes.
Rick Lindstrom
N42KP
Rick,
You are right on, man.? Van will not tolerate folks that want to "hot
rod" his designs.? There are several knock-offs of Van's designs out
there, but Van will not support them in any way.? Similarly, Burt Rutan
completely backed out of a growing experimental airplane plans business
when he discovered what a financial liability he had because of
builders playing (and flying) loose with his designs (think John
Denver).?
Many builders choose the XL because they must have an LSA and, at max
allowable horsepower, it is probably the fastest LSA available.? When
one builds for speed, they are going to fly it that way. ? But a
designer can't assume that pilots are going to abuse the airplane and
design an airplane to withstand any and all abuse, especially an LSA.?
I seriously doubt that an LSA could be designed to fly confidently into
a thunderstorm, either. The very term "Light Sport" simply does not
connote "Heavy Duty".
I think that too many pilots believe that Light Sport is actually just
a way to get around FAA certification rules; to produce cheaper
airplanes to compete with certified ones.? That is part of it, but the
rules significantly change the nature of the category. Builders and
pilots need to understand the rules, the reasons for them, the
limitations that result and fly them accordingly. That means
"re-education" and "re-training" are most certainly in order.
Jay ?
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG, a respectful question |
Different perceptions I suppose. I expect it may be possible for any
single one to fall, I would expect that most are actually retired and
dismantled first. So an absolute declaration that they all in fact will,
appears to be mistaken.
----- Original Message -----
From: ernie
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 5:49 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: ZBAG, a respectful question
Dave,
Sorry that you do like absolute declarations. I have not been on a
bridge that has fallen down but I know ALL bridges will.
E
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Dave <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca>
wrote:
Not to worry, feelings intact. I just find absolute declarations of
a defect or the lack thereof are not helpful. I have never experienced
flutter in anything so the absolute declaration of no aircraft being
free to be a little odd. I suppose it could happen, but then there's be
all that s**t to clean up.
----- Original Message -----
From: ernie
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: ZBAG, a respectful question
Dave
sorry i hurt your feelings.
Even the NTSB said something like flutter mitigation, not flutter
free.
If it was the keep build comment that hurt your feelings, I think
it is the right thing to do it is not ignoring anything
E.
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Dave <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca>
wrote:
No aircraft, ever, none... Wow! Kinda puts all those idiot
engineers in their place. Glad we're going to solve the potential by
ignoring it. Thanks Ernie.
----- Original Message -----
From: ernie
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: ZBAG, a respectful question
No aircraft made is flutter free. The GVT test show it is a
solid design.. KEEP BUILDING ;)
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
a>http://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 55
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG, a respectful question |
Dave,
I think all Suspension bridges have a flutter in them under the right wind
loads, maybe the civil engineers in the crowd will know better, there
is this case.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_Narrows_Bridge
e
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 5:11 PM, Dave <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Different perceptions I suppose. I expect it may be possible for any
> single one to fall, I would expect that most are actually retired and
> dismantled first. So an absolute declaration that they all in fact will,
> appears to be mistaken.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* ernie <ernieth@gmail.com>
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 16, 2009 5:49 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: ZBAG, a respectful question
>
> Dave, Sorry that you do like absolute
> declarations. I have not been on a bridge that has fallen down but I know ALL
bridges will.
>
> E
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Dave <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>> Not to worry, feelings intact. I just find absolute declarations of a
>> defect or the lack thereof are not helpful. I have never experienced flutter
>> in anything so the absolute declaration of no aircraft being free to be a
>> little odd. I suppose it could happen, but then there's be all that s**t to
>> clean up.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* ernie <ernieth@gmail.com>
>> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 16, 2009 2:58 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: ZBAG, a respectful question
>>
>> Dave
>> sorry i hurt your feelings.
>> Even the NTSB said something like flutter mitigation, not flutter free. If
>> it was the keep build comment that hurt your feelings, I think it is the
>> right thing to do it is not ignoring anything
>>
>> E.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Dave <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca>wrote:
>>
>>> No aircraft, ever, none... Wow! Kinda puts all those idiot engineers in
>>> their place. Glad we're going to solve the potential by ignoring it. Thanks
>>> Ernie.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> *From:* ernie <ernieth@gmail.com>
>>> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 16, 2009 10:38 AM
>>> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: ZBAG, a respectful question
>>>
>>> No aircraft made is flutter free. The GVT test show it is a solid
>>> design.. KEEP BUILDING ;)
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>> *
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c*
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> arget="_blank"> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>>
>> a> <http://forums.matronics.com>http://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank"> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c*
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 56
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG, a respectful question |
Sorrywrong link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_Narrows_Bridge_(1940)
e
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 5:24 PM, ernie <ernieth@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dave,
> I think all Suspension bridges have a flutter in them under the right wind
> loads, maybe the civil engineers in the crowd will know better, there is this
case.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_Narrows_Bridge
>
> e
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 5:11 PM, Dave <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>> Different perceptions I suppose. I expect it may be possible for any
>> single one to fall, I would expect that most are actually retired and
>> dismantled first. So an absolute declaration that they all in fact will,
>> appears to be mistaken.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* ernie <ernieth@gmail.com>
>> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 16, 2009 5:49 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: ZBAG, a respectful question
>>
>> Dave, Sorry that you do like absolute
>> declarations. I have not been on a bridge that has fallen down but I know ALL
bridges will.
>>
>> E
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Dave <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Not to worry, feelings intact. I just find absolute declarations of a
>>> defect or the lack thereof are not helpful. I have never experienced flutter
>>> in anything so the absolute declaration of no aircraft being free to be a
>>> little odd. I suppose it could happen, but then there's be all that s**t to
>>> clean up.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> *From:* ernie <ernieth@gmail.com>
>>> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 16, 2009 2:58 PM
>>> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: ZBAG, a respectful question
>>>
>>> Dave
>>> sorry i hurt your feelings.
>>> Even the NTSB said something like flutter mitigation, not flutter free. If
>>> it was the keep build comment that hurt your feelings, I think it is the
>>> right thing to do it is not ignoring anything
>>>
>>> E.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Dave <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca>wrote:
>>>
>>>> No aircraft, ever, none... Wow! Kinda puts all those idiot engineers
>>>> in their place. Glad we're going to solve the potential by ignoring it.
>>>> Thanks Ernie.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> *From:* ernie <ernieth@gmail.com>
>>>> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 16, 2009 10:38 AM
>>>> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: ZBAG, a respectful question
>>>>
>>>> No aircraft made is flutter free. The GVT test show it is a solid
>>>> design.. KEEP BUILDING ;)
>>>>
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c*
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> arget="_blank"> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>>>
>>> a> <http://forums.matronics.com>http://forums.matronics.com
>>> _blank"> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>> *
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c*
>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>
Message 57
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| Subject: | Re: response to some questionable recommednations |
depends on what part of the country you are from:)
-----Original Message-----
>From: Dennis Shoup <zenith601xl@gmail.com>
>Sent: Jun 16, 2009 4:44 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: response to some questionable recommednations
>
>Actually SWAG is "Scientific Wild Ass Guess"
>
>On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Juan Vega <amyvega2005@earthlink.net>wrote:
>
>>
>> All;
>>
>> the following a godd attempt at SWAG.(shit wild ass guess)
>>
>> MaxNr@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> > I say:
>> >
>> > 4
>> >
>> > To blame EVERY in flight break up on pilot error is reprehensible.
>> > The general consensus that I picked up on this list is that the
>> > ULTIMATE load for this air craft should now be three G's. Even the
>> > most ardent supporters (those that vote "1") make frequent remarks
>> > such as "He did a 3 G pull up and the wing failed." Following the
>> > crowd, I suggest that the new Matronics consensus limitation (3G
>> > ultimate) be observed.
>> >
>> > That would make the new normal load = 2 G. That means that the Vn
>> > diagram must be redrawn. A new Va would result. Furthermore, tried
>> > and true flutter mitigation measures are invalid. FAR 23.629 is
>> > junk. If so, is AC 43.13b also? Bernoulli is dead. Consensus rules!
>> > What do I know, I'm just a washed up ancient aviator that hangs out
>> > with retired aerodynamicists and old AI's? I must follow the herd.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> THE FACTS;
>>
>> Manauvering speed and max G load changes with certain variables, gross
>> weight, speed, temperature outside, Pressure Altitude
>> on a standard temp day, if you fly the plane at full gross, you will
>> exceed design loads below the max manauavering speeds.
>> The standard design model has a given Max G load for a given weight and
>> speed. Change the variables such as described above will yield a SNAFU
>> situation.
>> I have looped the plane and done 4 G pulls, provided I had only 10 gallons
>> of gas (60lbs) and only me in the plane(220 lbs). To do the same with two
>> guys and full fuel would be stupid.
>>
>> That is what some of the guys flying the 601 just do not get. Not even a
>> stunt pilot flying an EXTRA 300 loaded for 10 Gs would do stunts in a fully
>> loaded aircraft, and that is what those planes are desinged for.
>>
>> So ignore the BullS___t statements. Fly the plane within the specs, fly
>> a well maintained plane, and you will be fine.
>> DO you fly at 130 mph on a hot day with nasty thermals and convection goin
>> on? Only the dip shits will. Regardless of the plane flown.
>>
>> Juan Vega
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>> >Sent: Jun 15, 2009 6:46 PM
>> >To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>> >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Quick open poll about wing failures.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >I have to assume you're joking. I've pulled four Gs in mine at gross
>> >weight during phase 1 testing with no problem at all. The Zodiac will
>> >not shed its wings at three Gs unless you've got it grossly
>> >overloaded. or didn't bother to install the wing bolts.
>> >
>> >On Jun 15, 2009, at 1:56 PM, MaxNr@aol.com wrote:
>> >
>> >> I say:
>> >>
>> >> 4
>> >>
>> >> To blame EVERY in flight break up on pilot error is reprehensible.
>> >> The general consensus that I picked up on this list is that the
>> >> ULTIMATE load for this air craft should now be three G's. Even the
>> >> most ardent supporters (those that vote "1") make frequent remarks
>> >> such as "He did a 3 G pull up and the wing failed." Following the
>> >> crowd, I suggest that the new Matronics consensus limitation (3G
>> >> ultimate) be observed.
>> >>
>> >> That would make the new normal load = 2 G. That means that the Vn
>> >> diagram must be redrawn. A new Va would result. Furthermore, tried
>> >> and true flutter mitigation measures are invalid. FAR 23.629 is
>> >> junk. If so, is AC 43.13b also? Bernoulli is dead. Consensus rules!
>> >> What do I know, I'm just a washed up ancient aviator that hangs out
>> >> with retired aerodynamicists and old AI's? I must follow the herd.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >--
>> >Bryan Martin
>> >N61BM, CH 601 XL,
>> >RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
>> >do not archive.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
Message 58
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|
| Subject: | Re: New updates from Chris Heintz on the 601XL |
Thanks for the info.
I really loved Chris' aircraft design articles and look forward to his book coming
out.
--------
Jon McDonald
Building Sonex #1287
Thinking ahead about a Zenith CH 701 :D
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248544#248544
Message 59
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| Subject: | Re: response to some questionable recommednations |
Yes, in some parts of the country the two words are sometimes confused.
By the way, at max maneuvering speed, an abrupt maneuver will match, not
exceed, the design loads. At lighter weights the maneuvering speed is
lower.
George
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Juan Vega" <amyvega2005@earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: response to some questionable recommednations
>
> depends on what part of the country you are from:)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Dennis Shoup <zenith601xl@gmail.com>
>>Sent: Jun 16, 2009 4:44 PM
>>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: response to some questionable recommednations
>>
>>Actually SWAG is "Scientific Wild Ass Guess"
>>
>>On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Juan Vega
>><amyvega2005@earthlink.net>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> All;
>>>
>>> the following a godd attempt at SWAG.(shit wild ass guess)
>>>
>>> MaxNr@aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>> > I say:
>>> >
>>> > 4
>>> >
>>> > To blame EVERY in flight break up on pilot error is reprehensible.
>>> > The general consensus that I picked up on this list is that the
>>> > ULTIMATE load for this air craft should now be three G's. Even the
>>> > most ardent supporters (those that vote "1") make frequent remarks
>>> > such as "He did a 3 G pull up and the wing failed." Following the
>>> > crowd, I suggest that the new Matronics consensus limitation (3G
>>> > ultimate) be observed.
>>> >
>>> > That would make the new normal load = 2 G. That means that the Vn
>>> > diagram must be redrawn. A new Va would result. Furthermore, tried
>>> > and true flutter mitigation measures are invalid. FAR 23.629 is
>>> > junk. If so, is AC 43.13b also? Bernoulli is dead. Consensus rules!
>>> > What do I know, I'm just a washed up ancient aviator that hangs out
>>> > with retired aerodynamicists and old AI's? I must follow the herd.
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> THE FACTS;
>>>
>>> Manauvering speed and max G load changes with certain variables, gross
>>> weight, speed, temperature outside, Pressure Altitude
>>> on a standard temp day, if you fly the plane at full gross, you will
>>> exceed design loads below the max manauavering speeds.
>>> The standard design model has a given Max G load for a given weight and
>>> speed. Change the variables such as described above will yield a SNAFU
>>> situation.
>>> I have looped the plane and done 4 G pulls, provided I had only 10
>>> gallons
>>> of gas (60lbs) and only me in the plane(220 lbs). To do the same with
>>> two
>>> guys and full fuel would be stupid.
>>>
>>> That is what some of the guys flying the 601 just do not get. Not even
>>> a
>>> stunt pilot flying an EXTRA 300 loaded for 10 Gs would do stunts in a
>>> fully
>>> loaded aircraft, and that is what those planes are desinged for.
>>>
>>> So ignore the BullS___t statements. Fly the plane within the specs,
>>> fly
>>> a well maintained plane, and you will be fine.
>>> DO you fly at 130 mph on a hot day with nasty thermals and convection
>>> goin
>>> on? Only the dip shits will. Regardless of the plane flown.
>>>
>>> Juan Vega
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> >From: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>>> >Sent: Jun 15, 2009 6:46 PM
>>> >To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>>> >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Quick open poll about wing failures.
>>> >
>>> ><bryanmmartin@comcast.net
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >I have to assume you're joking. I've pulled four Gs in mine at gross
>>> >weight during phase 1 testing with no problem at all. The Zodiac will
>>> >not shed its wings at three Gs unless you've got it grossly
>>> >overloaded. or didn't bother to install the wing bolts.
>>> >
>>> >On Jun 15, 2009, at 1:56 PM, MaxNr@aol.com wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> I say:
>>> >>
>>> >> 4
>>> >>
>>> >> To blame EVERY in flight break up on pilot error is reprehensible.
>>> >> The general consensus that I picked up on this list is that the
>>> >> ULTIMATE load for this air craft should now be three G's. Even the
>>> >> most ardent supporters (those that vote "1") make frequent remarks
>>> >> such as "He did a 3 G pull up and the wing failed." Following the
>>> >> crowd, I suggest that the new Matronics consensus limitation (3G
>>> >> ultimate) be observed.
>>> >>
>>> >> That would make the new normal load = 2 G. That means that the Vn
>>> >> diagram must be redrawn. A new Va would result. Furthermore, tried
>>> >> and true flutter mitigation measures are invalid. FAR 23.629 is
>>> >> junk. If so, is AC 43.13b also? Bernoulli is dead. Consensus rules!
>>> >> What do I know, I'm just a washed up ancient aviator that hangs out
>>> >> with retired aerodynamicists and old AI's? I must follow the herd.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >--
>>> >Bryan Martin
>>> >N61BM, CH 601 XL,
>>> >RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
>>> >do not archive.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
My wife is a real estate sales rep and recently listed a property for a NWA pilot.
He has a 2000 foot PAVED runway on his property and a C150 for the kids to
play with and a RV for him. She mentioned that I was building and airplane and
so he asked what it was.... A Zenith she replied. Amy said he got very quiet
and asked what Zenith airplane. She thought about it and said CH701 I think
its called. His reply was, well thats a good airplane, at least its not a 601,
the wings fall off those things!
So I got ZBAGGED I guess and I'm not even building a 601.
I don't know all the details, I was a member of the group when it started, to see
what was up. But the discussion soon went a direction that I did not enjoy.
FYI I'd fly in and let my wife and kids fly in a 601 any day!
Kevin
PS I hated him before I knew he was spreading miss/diss information... a 2000 foot
paved runway!
--------
History is a great teacher if you take time to study it.
Steve Bennett
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248553#248553
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| Subject: | Height of open 650 canopy |
Measured up from the top longeron, how high does the highest point on the 650 canopy
extend? A quick measurement will be appreciated. I'm building in my garage
and have limited space above my project.
--------
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair
Fuselage on gear
Canopy frame in place
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248555#248555
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
William Dominguez wrote:
> Gig, why do you want to be part of the group anyway? When you have answered that
question to yourself you'll be close to the reason why I removed you.
My reason for wanting access to the ZBAG forum is the same now as it has been from
the beginning. To keep an eye on what you guys are saying about a plane that
I have several years and many thousands of dollars invested in. Also I'd like
the opportunity to counter some of the hype that your members are spreading.
That does not violate any set of terms of use you have ever published. And neither
did the post that got me kicked off.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248561#248561
Message 63
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG, a respectful question |
On Tuesday 16 June 2009 16:24, ernie wrote:
> Dave,
> I think all Suspension bridges have a flutter in them under the right wind
> loads, maybe the civil engineers in the crowd will know better, there
> is this case.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_Narrows_Bridge
I'm not a civil engineer, but I was trained as a physicist. The Tacoma Narrows
Bridge collapse was drilled into us as an example of physical resonance. I
don't think you can get flutter without having resonance, be it in a bridge,
or whatever.
The resonance needs a sharp peak at some frequency to get a good oscillation
going. Without the resonance and sharp peak, no oscillation.
I believe I was told that it is possible to minimize the potential for
resonance at the design level, and test for it with a process similar to
ground vibration testing. As far as I know, there are indeed suspension
bridges which do not oscillate, and do not have flutter.
The ground vibration testing performed on the 601XL would indicate the
aircraft wings do not have a resonance point with a significant peak. Thus,
for most practical purposes, it is extremely unlikely flutter will develop. I
think most aircraft designers and structrual dynamicists would probably take
that position.
This is not to say that there either is, or is not, some other design problem.
I personally am comfortable that the aircraft is reasonably well designed,
and have every intention of flying it when completed. Whether someone else
feels comfortable with flying their 601XL seems to me to be a personal
decision.
=============================================
You can check on my aircraft construction
progress at: http://www.mykitlog.com/santaigo
================================================
Jim B. Belcher
BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Instrument Rated Pilot
General Radio Telephone Certificate
Retired Aerospace Technical Manager
================================================
Message 64
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
Seems to be a lot of bach and forth on this issue.
On Tuesday 16 June 2009 15:09, Dave wrote:
> Ahh, humor! I remember that! "tiny bach" composes classic ringtones.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rick Lindstrom" <tigerrick@mindspring.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:55 PM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
>
> > And by the way, what is this "tiny bach" you refer to? Are we talking
> > about a dwarf composer? ;-)
>
--
=========================================
Jim Belcher
BS, MS, Physics/Math
A&P/IA
Retired Aerospace Technical Manager
=========================================
--
============================================
Do not archive.
============================================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
============================================
Message 65
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
Zenith builders Analysis Group, and you don't want a zenith builder there?
do not archive
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> William Dominguez wrote:
> > Gig, why do you want to be part of the group anyway? When you have
> answered that question to yourself you'll be close to the reason why I
> removed you.
>
>
> My reason for wanting access to the ZBAG forum is the same now as it has
> been from the beginning. To keep an eye on what you guys are saying about a
> plane that I have several years and many thousands of dollars invested in.
> Also I'd like the opportunity to counter some of the hype that your members
> are spreading.
>
> That does not violate any set of terms of use you have ever published. And
> neither did the post that got me kicked off.
>
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248561#248561
>
>
Message 66
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| Subject: | Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
Dred: Re paragraph two, sentence one, do you play one on TV? Dem
Cajun, dey too mellow to get in fight, dey jus' invite you go fishin',
den feed you to alligator for horse doovers, dem.
Paul R.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: Edward Moody II<mailto:dredmoody@cox.net>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
HOOO - WHEEE! And I thought local SW LA card games were contentious!
For the record, I've been ZBAGed as well. I think any of us who build,
fly or even speak in support of the 601XL design will encounter some of
that. No big deal. I'm a dentist, a political conservative, and I have
Irish ancestors. If I can't take some heat, I'll just have to commit
sideways and get it over with. I don't think I'll unsubscribe just yet
because every now and then there's something entertaining and/or
informative to read here. True, there's a lot of horsecrap but maybe
there's a pony in there too, huh?
I'm not an aeronautical engineer nor do I have lots of hours as PIC,
and I've only built two planes and assisted on two others (they do all
fly however, and none of them has crashed... yet), so I am not an
aviation authority by any measure. Some of you on the list are
extensively experienced. My greatest experience is in my genuine love of
people, even those who are sometimes rash and discourteous. We all make
such mistakes once in a while and what matters more is how we handle
these faux pas. No need to have a divorce because of an arguement. How
about we all Cajun up a bit and get some perspective? (I know it's
supposd to be "Cowboy Up" but Texas gets enough publicity as it is). Put
the knives away and sit back down and play cards, alright? Anybody need
another beer?
Here's some free advice that's worth about what you're paying for it:
Don't get all worked up about the opinions of other people... especially
people who hold opinions that you don't agree with. Got that? If you
already think they're all wet, don't take them so seriously. As for the
equity hit on our airplanes, it has already happened. It doesn't matter
whether ZBAG had great motives or self serving ones; the negative vibe
is already out there and it will only fade if we build and maintain and
fly our planes properly... and honestly, the bad PR will probably still
be there anyway. Hurling invective will not change any of that and
besides, invective hurling was never a very fun sport to begin with.
Now on the what I did today subject: Nothing with the airplane. My
grandaughter turned 4 today so I gave her a tent and played camping
games with her. I make very good imaginary bacon. Sunday however, I flew
to the gulf coast and back; logged 1.5 hours; still fussing with the
intake hose and the CHTs and EGTs at various power settings. I've got an
erratic left tank gauge that is probably (I hope) just a bad wire or
loose connection. It's not a big deal yet since I stick the tanks before
I fly and I don't fly more than 2 hours at a time so far. I've got 11.6
hours on the plane and no bad behavior from the plane at all. I wish I
had the engine behaving as well as the airframe but that will come in
time. I didn't get this old and patient and wise very quickly either.
What are you all laughing at?
Ed
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Zenith-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 67
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
ernieth(at)gmail.com wrote:
> Zenith buildersAnalysis Group,andyoudon'twantazenithbuilderthere?
>
Ohhh! That explains it then. I thought it was "Zenith Bashers Anonymous Group"
ZBAG. My bad.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248567#248567
Message 68
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG, a respectful question |
Thank you Jim.
I think I am being misunderstood. Remember my first post "The GVT test show
it is a solid design.. KEEP BUILDING ;)."
Every structure has a resonance frequency. Flutter that I am talking about
does not have to be destructive, and may be out of the normal operating
range. Even with extra Damping will also take a number of oscillation to
damping out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroelasticity#Flutter At its mildest this
can appear as a "buzz <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzz>"
Sorry I even started typing on this list.
E
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Jim Belcher <z601@anemicaardvark.com>wrote:
>
> On Tuesday 16 June 2009 16:24, ernie wrote:
> > Dave,
> > I think all Suspension bridges have a flutter in them under the right
> wind
> > loads, maybe the civil engineers in the crowd will know better, there
> > is this case.
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_Narrows_Bridge
>
> I'm not a civil engineer, but I was trained as a physicist. The Tacoma
> Narrows
> Bridge collapse was drilled into us as an example of physical resonance. I
> don't think you can get flutter without having resonance, be it in a
> bridge,
> or whatever.
>
> The resonance needs a sharp peak at some frequency to get a good
> oscillation
> going. Without the resonance and sharp peak, no oscillation.
>
> I believe I was told that it is possible to minimize the potential for
> resonance at the design level, and test for it with a process similar to
> ground vibration testing. As far as I know, there are indeed suspension
> bridges which do not oscillate, and do not have flutter.
>
> The ground vibration testing performed on the 601XL would indicate the
> aircraft wings do not have a resonance point with a significant peak. Thus,
> for most practical purposes, it is extremely unlikely flutter will develop.
> I
> think most aircraft designers and structrual dynamicists would probably
> take
> that position.
>
> This is not to say that there either is, or is not, some other design
> problem.
> I personally am comfortable that the aircraft is reasonably well designed,
> and have every intention of flying it when completed. Whether someone else
> feels comfortable with flying their 601XL seems to me to be a personal
> decision.
> =============================================
> You can check on my aircraft construction
> progress at: http://www.mykitlog.com/santaigo
> ================================================
> Jim B. Belcher
> BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science
> A&P/IA
> Instrument Rated Pilot
> General Radio Telephone Certificate
> Retired Aerospace Technical Manager
> ================================================
>
>
Message 69
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
Well that's clever, you have effectively discredited any thoughts,
discussion and efforts toward greater safety and understanding by calling
them names. What will you do for ActII?
Or maybe it's just not that effective a tactic.
----- Original Message -----
From: "cookwithgas" <cookwithgas@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 8:25 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
>
>
> ernieth(at)gmail.com wrote:
>> Zenith buildersAnalysis
>> Group,andyoudon'twantazenithbuilderthere?
>>
> Ohhh! That explains it then. I thought it was "Zenith Bashers Anonymous
> Group" ZBAG. My bad.
Message 70
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
or maybe the truth hurts
do not archive
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:51 PM, Dave <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> Well that's clever, you have effectively discredited any thoughts,
> discussion and efforts toward greater safety and understanding by calling
> them names. What will you do for ActII?
> Or maybe it's just not that effective a tactic.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "cookwithgas" <cookwithgas@HOTMAIL.COM
>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 8:25 PM
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
>
>
m
>> >
>>
>>
>> ernieth(at)gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Zenith builders=EF=BDAnalysis
>>> Group,=EF=BDand=EF=BDyou=EF=BDdon't=EF=BDwant=EF=BDa=EF
=BDzenith=EF=BDbuilder=EF=BDthere?
>>>
>>> Ohhh! That explains it then. I thought it was "Zenith Bashers
>> Anonymous Group" ZBAG. My bad.
>>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 71
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG, a respectful question |
Ernie, don't be sorry and please don't stop participating. Different
people, different perceptions and ideas. In most places where exchange
can take place it's a good thing. My response to you was not meant as a
challenge, just wanted to point out that and "all planes" statement was
perhaps beyond the scope of acceptable known facts. I also feel it is
likely that "every structure" may not have a resonant frequency. I don't
claim to know this, it simply seems unlikely.
Message 72
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico wrote:
> Well that's clever, you have effectively discredited any thoughts,
> discussion and efforts toward greater safety and understanding by calling
> them names. What will you do for ActII?
> Or maybe it's just not that effective a tactic.
>
>
> ---
No ZBAG discredits themselves when they ban anything that doesn't fit the party
line. Please look up thread and show me anything in my post that would warrant
a ban.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248577#248577
Message 73
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|
| Subject: | Advice about gas tanks in 601. |
Hello-601 builders,
-
I am ready to install the fuel senders in the 601 tanks...- Just I am hol
ding a little, doing some thinking, about the chance of installing the send
ers on the top of the tank...--
-
Two questions?
Someone had installed the senders on top of the tank in the 601 XL? Have ph
otos?.-
-
>From some of you that have flying airplanes and that have the senders on th
e side.- The sealing is satisfactory?
I will hate to need to open the leading edge skin(s) to replace the sender
or the gaskets...-I think there is no way to reach it throught the 3 fron
t ribs holes, to replace it...
-
Thank you all in advance for the comments.
-
Saludos
Gary Gower.
701 912S-
Building 601 XL Jab 3300
Fuselage almost ready,- tail surfaces ready, working on wings.
-
-
-
-=0A=0A=0A
Message 74
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| Subject: | Re: Advice about gas tanks in 601. |
Hi Gary,
I installed my senders on the side per the plans. I first installed them
with just the gasket and paper washers for the screws and they leaked
around the screw holes. I removed them thu the lightening hole and the
maintenance opening on the bottom of the wing and and reinstalled them
with fuel lube sealant on the gasket and screws and haven't had a leak
so far. I've got about 15 hours with no leaks...
Good luck,
John Davis
N601JD
Gary Gower wrote:
>
> Hello 601 builders,
>
> I am ready to install the fuel senders in the 601 tanks... Just I am
> holding a little, doing some thinking, about the chance of installing
> the senders on the top of the tank...
>
> Two questions?
> Someone had installed the senders on top of the tank in the 601 XL?
> Have photos?.
>
> From some of you that have flying airplanes and that have the senders
> on the side. The sealing is satisfactory?
> I will hate to need to open the leading edge skin(s) to replace the
> sender or the gaskets... I think there is no way to reach it throught
> the 3 front ribs holes, to replace it...
>
> Thank you all in advance for the comments.
>
> Saludos
> Gary Gower.
> 701 912S
> Building 601 XL Jab 3300
> Fuselage almost ready, tail surfaces ready, working on wings.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 75
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|
| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
Gig, did your read Dave comment? that is why you got banned. He got it, and
he is not even a member.
The group have a goal and the record shows you don't believe in the honesty
of that goal. When you characterize the group as a witch hunt, you just ga
ve away your real believe about the group. There where other post also but
I won't discuss them here. The term of use does address that.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
William Dominguez wrote:
> Gig, why do you want to be part of the group anyway? When you have answer
ed that question to yourself you'll be close to the reason why I removed yo
u.
My reason for wanting access to the ZBAG forum is the same now as it has be
en from the beginning. To keep an eye on what you guys are saying about a p
lane that I have several years and many thousands of dollars invested in. A
lso I'd like the opportunity to counter some of the hype that your members
are spreading.
That does not violate any set of terms of use you have ever published. And
neither did the post that got me kicked off.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248561#248561
le, List Admin.
Message 76
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| Subject: | Re: Advice about gas tanks in 601. |
Gary,
I have the senders in the side per plans. I have had to reseal one of
the screws a couple times.
The paper washers that came with the sender appear to work if installed
once. I took a sender out and the washers were trashed. My first
attempt to seal the screws with EZ lube lasted about 6 months. I now
have some Permatex gasket maker on the screw and it appears to be
holding.
It is actually very easy to get the sender in and out of the wing thru
the rib holes.
Floyd Wilkes
601XL
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Gower
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 7:16 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Advice about gas tanks in 601.
Hello 601 builders,
I am ready to install the fuel senders in the 601 tanks... Just
I am holding a little, doing some thinking, about the chance of
installing the senders on the top of the tank...
Two questions?
Someone had installed the senders on top of the tank in the 601
XL? Have photos?.
From some of you that have flying airplanes and that have the
senders on the side. The sealing is satisfactory?
I will hate to need to open the leading edge skin(s) to replace
the sender or the gaskets... I think there is no way to reach it
throught the 3 front ribs holes, to replace it...
Thank you all in advance for the comments.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
701 912S
Building 601 XL Jab 3300
Fuselage almost ready, tail surfaces ready, working on wings.
Message 77
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| Subject: | Re: Advice about gas tanks in 601. |
Gary:
Here is what I did:
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/5_30_04_Wingholes.JPG
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/6_4_04_FuelDoor.JPG
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/3_04_03_Sender2.JPG
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/3_04_03_Sender.JPG
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/3_5_03_SenderParts.JPG
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/3_5_04_WingTank.JPG
Scott Laughlin
601XL/Corvair
136 Hours
Zbagged 12 times
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248583#248583
Message 78
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
To bad you cant fight this out were it belongs on the ZBAG list.
I am glad your "builders" list is nice and calm without dissent.
here we use the delete key
Do not archive
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 8:37 PM, William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com>wrote:
> Gig, did your read Dave comment? that is why you got banned. He got it, and
> he is not even a member.
>
> The group have a goal and the record shows you don't believe in the honesty
> of that goal. When you characterize the group as a witch hunt, you just gave
> away your real believe about the group. There where other post also but I
> won't discuss them here. The term of use does address that.
>
> William Dominguez
> Zodiac 601XL Plans
> Miami Florida
> http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
>
> --- On *Tue, 6/16/09, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com>
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 6:56 PM
>
> >
>
>
> William Dominguez wrote:
> > Gig, why do you want to be part of the group anyway? When you have
> answered that question to yourself you'll be close to the reason why I
> removed you.
>
>
> My reason for wanting access to the ZBAG forum is the same now as it has
> been from the beginning. To keep an eye on what you guys are saying about a
> plane that I have several years and many thousands of dollars invested in.
> Also I'd like the opportunity to counter some of the hype that your members
> are spreading.
>
> That does not violate any set of terms of use you have ever published. And
> neither did the post that got me kicked off.
>
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248561#nics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/========================http://forums.sp;
> - List Contribution Web Sbsp; >
> <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248561#248561>ht
>
>
> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 79
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
On the other hand since your stated objective is not to participate or help
in any way, but to actually work against them it should not be surprising
that they do not wish to assist you in your efforts. Frankly I think having
a contrary voice is worthwhile, but I'm not the gatekeeper and have no idea
what you've been up to. A healthy discussion is worthwhile, even if it gets
a little too passionate from time to time. The goals should in theory be
that same, to fly a good sound and reasonably safe aircraft. The "wings fall
off" statements are not supported, but the source of those statements was
not ZBAG. The statements exist as a consequence of the airframe failures, as
does ZBAG itself. Let them discuss the issues as they care to without
interference.
The source of the rumors and potential bad reputation is not ZBAG, the fault
lies solely in the unusual number of incidents, no matter the cause. Until
they stop the situation will only get worse. I think ZBAG has had some small
effect in getting additional testing done, not as much as aviation
authorities in other countries, but some. That testing has resulted in
modifications to the design so that it is now potentially safer. The
incidents may stop now. I sincerely hope they do, not for the aircraft's
sake, nor for any financial benefit, but because pilots families have lost
members. So for any small part that the Analysis Group has played in making
XL's safer, I applaud them.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 9:15 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
>
> No ZBAG discredits themselves when they ban anything that doesn't fit the
> party line. Please look up thread and show me anything in my post that
> would warrant a ban.
>
Message 80
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| Subject: | Re: Making the right stick removable. |
Just a fast note:
-
I am also left handed,- I have no problems flying the 701 with the center
Y control stick,
neither changing gears in my Std transmission VW bus...- :-)
-
Now that I recall,- when flying in Cessnas (152,-and 182 so far),- Y
hold the "wheel" with my left hand and the power with the right, oposit tha
t with the 701...- Never a problem...- Go figure.---
-
Saludos
Gary Gower
Do not archive...- Yes, another useless tread, if you ask me....
-
--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Mitch Hodges <n601mh@hodges.info> wrote:
From: Mitch Hodges <n601mh@hodges.info>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Making the right stick removable
Gig Giacona wrote:
> The Y-Stick was a non-starter for me.... while I can fly with either hand
I can't write with my left at all.
Just goes to show we all have our needs, one of the reasons I liked it is b
ecause I am left handed and it made it easier to exactly what you say you s
truggle with for me!-
I've given further thought to this, and if I wasn't doing the center stick,
I believe I would make mine removable after all, for maintenance purposes
and for flight just to have the option where a stick on the right side just
isn't worth the risk.- That's what the BRS is for anyway.
--------
Mitch Hodges
N601MH (Zenith 601HDS)
Builder Log at http://www.hodges.aero
Wings Under Perpetual Construction
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248502#248502
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 81
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| Subject: | Re: Advice about gas tanks in 601. |
Hi Gary,
I have side mounted fuel senders in my tanks and the gaskets are very
sound as provided. Top mounting is over kill and problematic for the
leading edge tanks
and header. I'd recommend you go with the side mount. I can see my tank
sender, access it and remove it from the inboard rib nearest it without
too much difficulty
but don't think that will ever happen. Take time to install it
correctly and you'll not have any problems.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/leadedgetanks/full/sender-calibration-setup.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/leadedgetanks/full/tankwired.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/headertank/full/vdoinstall.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/wing/inspectionpanels/full/inspectpnl.jpg
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/airmap500mt2.gif
Fuel gages are arranged left tank, center tank and right tank on the top
right side.
The three gages on my panel read fuel levels very accurately with these
side mount positions.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Gary Gower wrote:
>
> Hello 601 builders,
>
> I am ready to install the fuel senders in the 601 tanks... Just I am
> holding a little, doing some thinking, about the chance of installing
> the senders on the top of the tank...
>
> Two questions?
> Someone had installed the senders on top of the tank in the 601 XL?
> Have photos?.
>
> From some of you that have flying airplanes and that have the senders
> on the side. The sealing is satisfactory?
> I will hate to need to open the leading edge skin(s) to replace the
> sender or the gaskets... I think there is no way to reach it throught
> the 3 front ribs holes, to replace it...
>
> Thank you all in advance for the comments.
>
> Saludos
> Gary Gower.
> 701 912S
> Building 601 XL Jab 3300
> Fuselage almost ready, tail surfaces ready, working on wings.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *
> *
Message 82
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| Subject: | Re: Making the right stick removable |
Hi Sabrina,
I think I spoke to someone at Zenith about the elevator horn
reinforcement and AS-5 rivets. I was told this change was done to
meet the ASTM LSA spec.
Paul
XL grounded
At 10:43 AM 6/16/2009, you wrote:
>It is clear that the XL elevator is experiencing forces beyond which
>it was originally designed, otherwise the elevator horn
>reinforcement and AS5 rivets would not have been specified by Zenith.
Message 83
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG, a respectful question: a modest answer |
Interesting question, Kevin
Since we have ample evidence that flutter does occur in real CH601XL's in
flight, I guess that your question translates to,
"What evidence would it take to prove to me that the pilots who have
experienced flutter in the 601XL were lying or mistaken?"
Gosh, I don't know. All of the pilots who reported flutter were more
experienced than I am. One had thousands of hours. I find their reports
convincing. I have no reason to believe that they were lying. One person
who reported flutter in the 601XL tests was Mathieu Heintz (look up his Sun
n Fun AvWeb podcast). I guess that I would have to conclude that Mathieu is
either incompetent or dishonest. I am not ready to make that conclusion. We
have at least two second hand reports of flutter in 601XL from Chris Heintz
(look through Chris's letters to owners). I would have to conclude that
Chris was wrong in his letter.
Here's what I think I know. If the balance on an aileron satisfies the
criteria in A&E Report 45, then my understanding is that the FAA is willing
to forego flutter testing for certificated airplanes. That's simple enough
for me. Add about 5 lbs or so to each wing in a well designed
counterbalance, and according to established criteria, aileron flutter will
not happen. If you look at Fig. 24 of Prof. Weltin's GVT report, you'll
see a pretty reasonable design for a 601XL aileron counterbalance. I
suspect that Zenair has a better drawing of that somewhere. It looks good
to me.
Hey, E-AB aircraft builders can do whatever they want to their airplanes.
If you do not believe that flutter is a problem, Kevin, then don't add
counterbalances. It would be most revealing if half the fleet added the
counterbalances, plus the LAA mods, whatever they work out to be, and half
the fleet flew 601XL's made exactly to the prints. Then in a couple of
years we would find out whether the counterbalances, et al, made a
difference--or not. So those of you who have absolute faith in the design,
you can be the control group. Others, whose faith is not so solid can make
the mods they find appropriate. A couple of years of flying should tell the
tale. I cannot understand why anyone with absolute faith in the design
would feel threatened by the mods that others make to their planes. If you
are right, you can have the last laugh at those of us who lack your
absolute faith. For sure, the last thing I would want to do is to impose my
own personal concerns on you.
So, I suggest that everyone tone down their rhetoric. Then make the mods to
your airplane that makes sense to you, or not, and in a couple of years we
should have the answer. I've got a pretty good idea what I will do. How
about you, Kevin?
Terry
At 06:03 AM 6/16/2009 -0700, you wrote:
>My question is directed to anyone who has design questions regarding the
>601XL.
>
>What evidence would it take to prove to you the 601XL is free of flutter?
>
>Regards,
>Kevin Kinney
Terry Phillips ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; waiting on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 84
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| Subject: | Re: British testing |
Hi Roger,
Thank you for posting the LAA comments on the UK handling of the Zodiac XL.
I hope the mods approved by the LAA will be distributed so the rest
of us can install them. I don't know if it is appropriate for the
mods to be distributed without a fee or if a fee would be
appropriate. I don't really care if there is a modest fee.
I have grounded my XL waiting for properly engineered design changes
to satisfy the NTSB ruling. In particular I want aileron mass
balance and some redesign to eliminate the stick force per G
issues. I would prefer if the changes were analyzed by Chris or one
of his representative engineers, but perhaps the LAA changes already
have met that burden. The only question remaining in my mind is
whether or not the UK XL version is close enough to my own (standard
Zenith kit) so the analysis is valid.
Paul
XL grounded
At 11:59 AM 6/16/2009, you wrote:
>The following might be of interest to you. This is the reply from
>the LAA to my inquiry about the purposes and parameters of the
>upcoming testing.
>
>
>"If I may expand very briefly. Firstly, there have been no cases of
>wing failure in the UK involving 601XL aircraft, there has been a
>failure of the three piece wing which lead to discussions about the
>light stick force per g. This failure was a clear overload failure
>and (I appreciate that it is impossible to be 100% sure) evidence
>from witnesses suggest strongly that the pilot 'pulled the wings
>off'. Clearly we are not happy that this can happen and other
>(worldwide) failures appear to point to two principle areas of
>concern; 1. pilot training for sport type aircraft and 2. the low
>stick force per g. We will be making recommendations about light
>pitch control forces, based on experience gained with this incident,
>when we issue the mod kit to update XL's.
>
>When the AD grounding the CH 601 XL was issued in Holland we
>discussed whether we should follow suit, we decided not to do this
>as it was effectively an unknown machine operating within a
>completely different regulatory environment. We were quite
>surprised when Zenair Europe published a Factory AD requiring
>'validation' of the control cable tensions because, at low tensions,
>flutter had been reported. As you may know we recommended that the
>aircraft be grounded on the strength of this.
>
>As an organisation we decided to do a re-validation exercise on the
>primary structure and found one or two areas that we were not happy
>with, hence the wing mods. What we have never said is that the
>aircraft is not strong enough, only that it doesn't meet our
>requirements fully in some areas. We have never connected the
>structural failures reported worldwide with the UK grounding,
>because they are not connected. The LAA system for Permit aircraft
>is, whilst slower than some entrepreneur's would like, very
>robust. I say all this because we are certainly not going to fly
>the aircraft to different loads until it breaks, we can find this
>braking point with a pen and paper, and, we know that the mass
>balance will prevent aileron flutter (even at light cable tensions),
>so we don't need a 'baseline' here.
>
>As soon as the aircraft is successfully test flown we will approve
>the mod kit and start the process of getting chaps back in the
>air. It will be up to others to determine reasons for other
>accidents worldwide."
>
>
Message 85
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
What happened to Scott is that he made some recent trips in his plane and s
ome other pilots hurt his feelings by questioning the safety of his plane.
Now he is angry mad and he need something to blame for this experience so h
e choose ZBAG as a kicking bag. Lets face it, ZBAG is an easy target, it ev
en end with bag as with kicking bag. So lets give him some space while he g
et it all out and heals himself.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601 blah blah you know the rest
time to put the do not archive in this useless thread.
--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Dave <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
From: Dave <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
Well that's clever, you have effectively discredited any thoughts, discussi
on and efforts toward greater safety and understanding by calling them name
s. What will you do for ActII?
Or maybe it's just not that effective a tactic.
----- Original Message ----- From: "cookwithgas" <cookwithgas@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 8:25 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
>
>
>
> ernieth(at)gmail.com wrote:
>> Zenith builders=EF=BDAnalysis Group,=EF=BDand=EF=BDyou=EF=BD
don't=EF=BDwant=EF=BDa=EF=BDzenith=EF=BDbuilder=EF=BDthere?
>>
> Ohhh!- That explains it then.- I thought it was "Zenith Bashers Anony
mous Group"- ZBAG.---My bad.
le, List Admin.
Message 86
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG, a respectful question |
Ok,Maybe not every structure, but with the GVT testing the 601 designs
natural resonant frequency has been found to be dampened and not going to
cause issues in a normal operating environment.
E
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Dave <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Ernie, don't be sorry and please don't stop participating. Different
> people, different perceptions and ideas. In most places where exchange can
> take place it's a good thing. My response to you was not meant as a
> challenge, just wanted to point out that and "all planes" statement was
> perhaps beyond the scope of acceptable known facts. I also feel it is likely
> that "every structure" may not have a resonant frequency. I don't claim to
> know this, it simply seems unlikely.
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 87
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| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
it doesn't when the truth is lacking
William Dominguez
do not archive
--- On Tue, 6/16/09, ernie <ernieth@gmail.com> wrote:
From: ernie <ernieth@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
or maybe the truth hurts
do not archive
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:51 PM, Dave <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
=0A=0A
=0AWell that's clever, you have effectively discredited any thoughts, discu
ssion and efforts toward greater safety and understanding by calling them n
ames. What will you do for ActII?
=0AOr maybe it's just not that effective a tactic.
=0A
=0A
=0A----- Original Message ----- From: "cookwithgas" <cookwithgas@HOTMAIL.CO
M>
=0ATo: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
=0ASent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 8:25 PM
=0ASubject: Zenith-List: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
=0A
=0A
..com>
=0A
=0A
=0Aernieth(at)gmail.com wrote:
=0A=0AZenith builders=EF=BDAnalysis Group,=EF=BDand=EF=BDyou=EF
=BDdon't=EF=BDwant=EF=BDa=EF=BDzenith=EF=BDbuilder=EF=BDther
e?
=0A
=0A=0AOhhh! =C2-That explains it then. =C2-I thought it was "Zenith Bas
hers Anonymous Group" =C2-ZBAG. =C2- My bad.
=0A=0A
=0A
=0A==========
=0Ast" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
=0A==========
=0AMS -
=0Ak">http://forums.matronics.com
=0A==========
=0Ae -
=0A =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2--Matt Dralle, List Admin.
=0At="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=0A==========
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A=0A
Message 88
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|
| Subject: | Re: Advice about gas tanks in 601. |
Hi Gary,
I have senders on tank tops and photos (someplace . . .) I can dig
them up if you want.
One of my neighbors bought a Zodiac XL and had a leak around the
senders which were on top of the tank. He strongly recommended to me
that I install inspection plates over the senders. I didn't do it
yet because my tanks were already closed into the wings, but you
might consider such a feature.
If you still want the pictures, please let me know. I am sure I have
them someplace in the pile of 1500 or so pics I have.
Best regards,
Paul
At 05:16 PM 6/16/2009, you wrote:
>Hello 601 builders,
>
>I am ready to install the fuel senders in the 601 tanks... Just I
>am holding a little, doing some thinking, about the chance of
>installing the senders on the top of the tank...
>
>Two questions?
>Someone had installed the senders on top of the tank in the 601 XL?
>Have photos?.
>
> From some of you that have flying airplanes and that have the
> senders on the side. The sealing is satisfactory?
>I will hate to need to open the leading edge skin(s) to replace the
>sender or the gaskets... I think there is no way to reach it
>throught the 3 front ribs holes, to replace it...
>
>Thank you all in advance for the comments.
>
>Saludos
>Gary Gower
Message 89
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|
| Subject: | Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
doth protest too much
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:34 PM, William Dominguez <bill_dom@yahoo.com>wrot
e:
> it doesn't when the truth is lacking
>
> William Dominguez
>
> do not archive
>
> --- On *Tue, 6/16/09, ernie <ernieth@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: ernie <ernieth@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 8:05 PM
>
> or maybe the truth hurts
> do not archive
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:51 PM, Dave <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca<http://m
c/compose?to=d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca>
> > wrote:
>
p://mc/compose?to=d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca>
>> >
>>
>> Well that's clever, you have effectively discredited any thoughts,
>> discussion and efforts toward greater safety and understanding by callin
g
>> them names. What will you do for ActII?
>> Or maybe it's just not that effective a tactic.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "cookwithgas" <cookwithgas@HOTMAIL.CO
M<http://mc/compose?to=cookwithgas@HOTMAIL.COM>
>> >
>> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com<http://mc/compose?to=zenith-list@matron
ics.com>
>> >
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 8:25 PM
>> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
>>
>>
>>> cookwithgas@hotmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=cookwithgas@hotmail.com
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ernieth(at)gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Zenith builders=EF=BDAnalysis
>>>> Group,=EF=BDand=EF=BDyou=EF=BDdon't=EF=BDwant=EF=BDa=EF
=BDzenith=EF=BDbuilder=EF=BDthere?
>>>>
>>>> Ohhh! That explains it then. I thought it was "Zenith Bashers
>>> Anonymous Group" ZBAG. My bad.
>>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>> ==========
>> MS -
>> k">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> e -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigatoget="_blank" href="http://forums.ma
tronics.com">http://forums.matronics -
> --> <http://www.matronics=======%3Cbr%3E%3Cbr%3E%3C/font
%3E%3C/b%3E%3Cfont+color=>*
>
> *
>
===========
===========
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> *
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>
Message 90
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| Subject: | Re: Advice about gas tanks in 601. |
In my opinion the sender supplied with the kit needs some help. Get rid of the
backing ring. It will only grab a very small amount of the tank skin.
Here are some photos. Also McMaster Carr has some very very good sealing washers
for #10 screws. You will not need any liquid sealer.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248618#248618
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1010081_641.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1010078_103.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1010077_279.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1010076_195.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1010074_910.jpg
Message 91
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| Subject: | Re: Advice about gas tanks in 601. |
I have mine in the top of the tanks as per the early plans I have.
They have changed the senders since then. I had to modify the senders
some to get a low enough profile to fit on top. I also installed
access panels over the senders. I think I have pictures but I don'
have them handy right now.
On Jun 16, 2009, at 8:16 PM, Gary Gower wrote:
>
> Hello 601 builders,
>
> I am ready to install the fuel senders in the 601 tanks... Just I
> am holding a little, doing some thinking, about the chance of
> installing the senders on the top of the tank...
>
> Two questions?
> Someone had installed the senders on top of the tank in the 601 XL?
> Have photos?.
>
> From some of you that have flying airplanes and that have the
> senders on the side. The sealing is satisfactory?
> I will hate to need to open the leading edge skin(s) to replace the
> sender or the gaskets... I think there is no way to reach it
> throught the 3 front ribs holes, to replace it...
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
Message 92
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| Subject: | Re: Advice about gas tanks in 601. |
Gary,
Mine is a HDS, but with leading edge tanks with sender on the side.
Sealed mine with permatex four years ago, no leak.
Leo Gates
CH601HDS TDO, Rotax 912UL
Gary Gower wrote:
>
> Hello 601 builders,
>
> I am ready to install the fuel senders in the 601 tanks... Just I am
> holding a little, doing some thinking, about the chance of installing
> the senders on the top of the tank...
>
> Two questions?
> Someone had installed the senders on top of the tank in the 601 XL?
> Have photos?.
>
> From some of you that have flying airplanes and that have the senders
> on the side. The sealing is satisfactory?
> I will hate to need to open the leading edge skin(s) to replace the
> sender or the gaskets... I think there is no way to reach it throught
> the 3 front ribs holes, to replace it...
>
> Thank you all in advance for the comments.
>
> Saludos
> Gary Gower.
> 701 912S
> Building 601 XL Jab 3300
> Fuselage almost ready, tail surfaces ready, working on wings.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 93
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| Subject: | Re: British testing |
Paul,
You say: "I have grounded my XL waiting for properly engineered design changes
to satisfy the NTSB ruling."
You have not grounded anything, you have abandoned it. You have a kit that YOU
have chosen NOT to complete, just like thousands of builders of different manufacturers.
My brother has a float plane kit he started 15 years ago. The fiberglass boat
is delaminated, so I guess he should call it "grounded" too.
Your choice of words, along with your attitude towards those that do fly safely
is the main problem we have here.
Using your logic, my kids have a grounded time machine in their bedroom and a grounded
spaceship out back.
Jon Burns
Little Elm, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248621#248621
Message 94
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| Subject: | Re: British testing |
Dear Jon,
You are simply full of shit.
You have no concept what I might have or not have. To support such a
statement as you have made you would need either godlike powers or
keys to my hangar.
I don't know why you would want to attack my situation in such a
personal and offensive way, but I suggest you consider making such
comments in a private channel and checking your facts before making a
public spectacle of yourself.
I do not have a kit. I have a finished airplane. It is registered
with the FAA registry (N773PM). It was about to be inspected for
airworthiness within a few days of the NTSB ruling. When the ruling
came out I spent a couple of days considering all the details and
discussing them with my wife (who is also an aviator). We decided
the only reasonable choice was to ground the plane until the issues
raised by the NTSB were resolved.
I do not suggest that anyone should follow my lead and ground their
own planes. I never have. This is a decision each owner must make
for himself. Of course this freedom doesn't extend to the many
owners in the UK, Netherlands, and Germany where the government has
grounded their planes for them.
I have not abandoned anything - except perhaps for my faith in the
reasonableness of some members of this email discussion group. My XL
is still in my hangar awaiting resolution of the issues raised by the NTSB.
I can understand small minded people who feel a need to attack others
who don't agree with them. I do not consider this acceptable behavior.
I fully expect an apology, in the same public media as your foolish
accusation, for your outrageous and unsupportable comments.
Paul
XL grounded
At 07:48 PM 6/16/2009, you wrote:
>Paul,
>
>You say: "I have grounded my XL waiting for properly engineered
>design changes to satisfy the NTSB ruling."
>
>You have not grounded anything, you have abandoned it. You have a
>kit that YOU have chosen NOT to complete, just like thousands of
>builders of different manufacturers.
>
>My brother has a float plane kit he started 15 years ago. The
>fiberglass boat is delaminated, so I guess he should call it "grounded" too.
>
>Your choice of words, along with your attitude towards those that do
>fly safely is the main problem we have here.
>
>Using your logic, my kids have a grounded time machine in their
>bedroom and a grounded spaceship out back.
>
>Jon Burns
>Little Elm, TX
>
Message 95
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG, a respectful question |
Off Topic.
Nope. That's why suspension bridges have the steel gratings down the
center. The gratings kill the lift that would be generated in high
wind conditions. The first Tacoma Narrows bridge had a solid road bed
with no gratings. It was also designed too thin and flexible.
Engineers learned a lot from the mistakes made at Tacoma Narrows.
Modern suspension bridges absolutely will not react like the first
Tacoma Narrows bridge did, even under the strongest winds.
On Jun 16, 2009, at 5:24 PM, ernie wrote:
> Dave,
>
> I think all Suspension bridges have a flutter in them under the
> right wind loads, maybe the civil engineers in the crowd will know
> better, there is this case.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_Narrows_Bridge
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 96
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| Subject: | Re: XL Testing UK |
Welcome back. You haven't missed much.
Leo Gates
Sabrina wrote:
>
> I'm back...
>
> I just wanted to make sure it was not me who was causing the list to flame.
It can flame very well on its own.
>
>
Message 97
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| Subject: | Re: British testing |
Paul,
You made a post a few days ago stating your plane is not complete. You said it
would be 2 or so weeks more work. You state here that it has not been inspected,
thus you still have a kit.
I will not apologize here or anywhere. Your have not completed the kit, you do
not have an airworthiness certificate, therefore you couldn't fly even if you
want to... which you do not. Calling it grounded is a misnomer.
AGAIN, you cannot ground that which cannot fly.
Jon Burns
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248631#248631
Message 98
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| Subject: | Re: British testing |
I have been a lurker on this list for a couple of months and I am shocked at
the discourse. I have been trying to convince my wife to let me build a
Zenith and have been gathering data, etc. And, had to suffer through all
this ?????? (whatever you want to call it) trying to form an opinion about
the Zenith products. I am looking at the 750, but would not build one if I
was not confident in the company.
I also participate in other lists and just can not believe the attacks that
go on here. Paul, I understand your point about your decision to ??ground
your kit, but why attack Jon over the definition of whether or not your
project is airplane. Does it matter, no. And Jon, why the sideways attack
of Paul by trying to define his aircraft as just an abandoned project...it
does not add anything to topic, just looks like an attempt to
inflame....that worked
Here are my options......flame away.
The 601 has some unexplained crashes and it is important to try and find the
reason.
A lot of people are pointing fingers at root causes that they have no
evidence or proof for. E.g flutter
The law of unintended consequences should be understood...what will a 5
pound weight do to the aileron? The wing......be careful not to create one
problem trying to fix another....
We had an accident here in Utah last year, I don't think I would have flown
that day......I think they were forecasting 30 knots winds from the south,
when I heard about the crash and saw it on the news I was not totally
surprised. With winds that strong, flight in the leeward side of the
mountains can be very tough...
I am still going to keep monitoring this and other list and just ignore the
hostile post.
Rene'
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: British testing
Dear Jon,
You are simply full of shit.
You have no concept what I might have or not have. To support such a
statement as you have made you would need either godlike powers or
keys to my hangar.
I don't know why you would want to attack my situation in such a
personal and offensive way, but I suggest you consider making such
comments in a private channel and checking your facts before making a
public spectacle of yourself.
I do not have a kit. I have a finished airplane. It is registered
with the FAA registry (N773PM). It was about to be inspected for
airworthiness within a few days of the NTSB ruling. When the ruling
came out I spent a couple of days considering all the details and
discussing them with my wife (who is also an aviator). We decided
the only reasonable choice was to ground the plane until the issues
raised by the NTSB were resolved.
I do not suggest that anyone should follow my lead and ground their
own planes. I never have. This is a decision each owner must make
for himself. Of course this freedom doesn't extend to the many
owners in the UK, Netherlands, and Germany where the government has
grounded their planes for them.
I have not abandoned anything - except perhaps for my faith in the
reasonableness of some members of this email discussion group. My XL
is still in my hangar awaiting resolution of the issues raised by the NTSB.
I can understand small minded people who feel a need to attack others
who don't agree with them. I do not consider this acceptable behavior.
I fully expect an apology, in the same public media as your foolish
accusation, for your outrageous and unsupportable comments.
Paul
XL grounded
At 07:48 PM 6/16/2009, you wrote:
>Paul,
>
>You say: "I have grounded my XL waiting for properly engineered
>design changes to satisfy the NTSB ruling."
>
>You have not grounded anything, you have abandoned it. You have a
>kit that YOU have chosen NOT to complete, just like thousands of
>builders of different manufacturers.
>
>My brother has a float plane kit he started 15 years ago. The
>fiberglass boat is delaminated, so I guess he should call it "grounded"
too.
>
>Your choice of words, along with your attitude towards those that do
>fly safely is the main problem we have here.
>
>Using your logic, my kids have a grounded time machine in their
>bedroom and a grounded spaceship out back.
>
>Jon Burns
>Little Elm, TX
>
Message 99
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 43 Msgs - 06/14/09 |
Please take me off this ride also . You sound like bunch of old ladies
setting around a table with nothing better to do . I use to enjoy getting
e mails and learning ...
----- Original Message -----
From: Zenith-List Digest Server
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 12:14 AM
Subject: Zenith-List Digest: 43 Msgs - 06/14/09
*
========================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
========================
Today's complete Zenith-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the Zenith-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
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tml&Chapter 09-06-14&Archive=Zenith
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xt&Chapter 09-06-14&Archive=Zenith
======================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
======================
----------------------------------------------------------
Zenith-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Sun 06/14/09: 43
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:07 AM - I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report.
(cookwithgas)
2. 08:15 AM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Craig Payne)
3. 08:19 AM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Paul Mulwitz)
4. 09:38 AM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Carroll Jernigan)
5. 10:08 AM - Chat reminder for "Digesters" (George Race)
6. 10:40 AM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Phil Maxson)
7. 11:30 AM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Paul Mulwitz)
8. 11:39 AM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (T. Graziano)
9. 11:55 AM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (jonaburns)
10. 12:00 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Lawrence Webber)
11. 12:42 PM - Zodiac XL Aileron Mass Balancing (T. Graziano)
12. 01:33 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (hansriet)
13. 01:40 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Phil Maxson)
14. 01:54 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Paul Mulwitz)
15. 02:12 PM - Re: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight R
eport. (jaybannist@cs.com)
16. 02:13 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Jim Belcher)
17. 02:49 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Iberplanes IGL)
18. 02:52 PM - Re: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight R
eport. (Dave)
19. 03:02 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Paul Mulwitz)
20. 03:14 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Bryan Martin)
21. 03:54 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Jay Maynard)
22. 03:54 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Jay Maynard)
23. 04:13 PM - Re: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight R
eport. (Juan Vega)
24. 04:23 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Juan Vega)
25. 04:47 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Juan Vega)
26. 04:57 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (jonaburns)
27. 05:08 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Juan Vega)
28. 05:08 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Jay Maynard)
29. 05:22 PM - Re: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight R
eport. (Jay Maynard)
30. 05:26 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Dave Austin)
31. 05:34 PM - Re: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight R
eport. (Lawrence Webber)
32. 05:55 PM - Re: [Probable Spam] Re: Re: I got Zbagged three times
on Friday - Flight Report. (LarryMcFarland)
33. 06:22 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Rick Lindstrom)
34. 06:27 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. ()
35. 06:48 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Dave)
36. 07:03 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Paul Mulwitz)
37. 07:20 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Rick Lindstrom)
38. 08:03 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Ron Lendon)
39. 08:35 PM - Re: Re: Get Me the Hell Off this Ride (JAPhillipsGA@a
ol.com)
40. 08:37 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (JohnDRead@aol.com)
41. 08:41 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (JohnDRead@aol.com)
42. 09:10 PM - Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t. (Gary Gower)
43. 09:50 PM - Re: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight R
eport. (Gary Gower)
________________________________ Message 1 ____________________________
_________
Time: 07:07:48 AM PST US
Subject: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report
From: "cookwithgas" <cookwithgas@HOTMAIL.COM>
On friday my daughter and I flew to Austin, Texas and back plus a little
sightseeing
with an old friend, adding four hours to the 601XL hobbs.
I got Zbagged three times. I'll explain later in the story. I left Grand
Prairie
at 10:00AM with no flight plan except to head South and find Georgetown o
n
the GPS once I got in the air. I had looked at the sectional beforehand
and noticed
Waco on the way so decided to stop there for fuel.
I had checked the weather and had good reports the night before but it lo
oked nasty
all around us when we decided to take off. The clouds were high, so we c
ontacted
ground, then tower and departed toward the South. We found an untowered
executive airport near Waco and landed for fuel. It was a full-service p
lace
and I paid $4.47 for fuel. I only needed 10 gallons and the lady inside
told
me most people complain about the price. I told her it was worth it beca
use
they helped me find Georgetown and told me about some towers to avoid alo
ng
with some other advice for the area. While I was in there I ran into a g
uy who
was staring at my airplane from the office. He said it looked better tha
n
most RV's he has seen. I told him it was a CH601XL and he got this funny
look
on his face as if to be surprised that I had actually flown it there. He
said
"isn't that the one that the wings fall off?" I said yes and I would not
fly
over the office on departure if it would make him feel better. ZBAGGED at
my
first stop!
Next stop Georgetown. I have some friends I have not seen in many years
living
near Austin and had made arrangements to meet them there and take them fl
ying
over their property. I contacted the tower and landed on a beautiful day
and
was met on the ramp by an old man with a walkie talkie who inquired about
my
fuel needs and whether or not I'd be staying over night. He said it woul
d cost
me $4 if I decided to stay overnight unless I purchased fuel. He then as
ked
me what kind of airplane it was and he noted that it "sure is shiny." I
told
hm and he right away put on the ZBAG face. "oooooh" he said with a grima
ce.
I told him I had a BRS and he said "good idea." ZBAGGED for the second
time
in one day!
My daughter went shopping with the wife and I took the husband flying ove
r their
property and had a wonderful time making tight turns over their house and
doing
slow and low flights over their barn, waving at their kids and sister bac
k
at the house. I think he may have been bitten by the bug and I wouldn'
t be
surprised if my friend starts taking flying lessons soon. We headed back
to
Georgetown airport over some beautiful lakes and called at 10-miles out.
The
non-FAA tower guy told me to do a right pattern for runway 18 and call wh
en I
was two-miles out. I continued chatting with my friend, then at about 5
miles
out the tower called back. "5-sierra-lima, what kind of airplane are you
flying?"
I told him a CH601XL. Long pause. "Uuuuhhhh." long pause again. "Is
that a Zenith 601XL?" Yes Sir I replied. "Uuuuh." another pause. "How f
ast
are you traveling?" "Indicating 115 sir" I replied. "OK that's good....
you
be careful...... enter right downwind for 18, cleared to land" ZBAGGED
again!
I guess the walkie talkie guy had been talking to the tower guy while I w
as
gone. Or maybe he had been reading his copy of AOPA while I was gone.
It was a great day of flying and with a tail-wind and smoother air return
ing to
Grand Prairie. The skies were kind of hazy when we got near home but tha
t took
away the bumps. The tower at Grand Prairie knows me now (maybe they aler
t
the fire trucks every time I call in) and they call me "five-zero-lima."
I think
it's funny they get my call sign wrong most of the time. It is probably
the
way I say "sierra."
The next time you, as a Zenith builder or flyer get ZBAGGED, post it here
and let
us know about it. Terry Phillips (not Bill) and his merry gang of zbagge
rs
have really made my flying experiences interesting! I used to get compli
ments
on the airplane but now I get compliments, then grimaces. At least nobod
y recognizes
the airplane until I tell them~!
Scott in Texas
601XL/Corvair
136 hours and climbing
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248034#248034
________________________________ Message 2 ____________________________
_________
Time: 08:15:44 AM PST US
From: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Re
port.
This is GREAT! With them all worried about the airframe they never get a
chance to worry that you are flying behind a Corvair. :-)
-- Craig
________________________________ Message 3 ____________________________
_________
Time: 08:19:08 AM PST US
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
So, Scott, did you learn anything from your great experience?
Let me guess . . . You and a few other folks with vested interests
in the Zodiac XL are right to ignore the NTSB finding and the whole
rest of the world is wrong.
Paul
XL grounded
do not archive
At 07:06 AM 6/14/2009, you wrote:
>I got Zbagged three times.
________________________________ Message 4 ____________________________
_________
Time: 09:38:07 AM PST US
From: Carroll Jernigan <trainnut01@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Re
port.
On Jun 14, 2009, at 10:06 AM, cookwithgas wrote:
>
Scott
Last Wednesday the man who previously purchased my RV7 (my first
aircraft building project) was in my automotive shop the get his car
repaired. First he bragged about the performance of the RV (20 mph
faster at cruise than spec) Then he asked how my S6S project was
going. When I told him that since our last meeting I had forgone the
S6S and was building a 601XL his chin absolutely hit the floor. He had
heard all sorts of stories and was convinced theywere all true. He
asked lots of questions but obviously was not buying any of my
answers. At that point I really convinced him I was totally crazy by
announcing my choice of Corvair power. We parted not quite as close as
we once were and with me convinced that if I should have an accident
he will appear at my funeral with a banner reading "I told you so".
Carroll Jernigan
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248034#248034
>
>
________________________________ Message 5 ____________________________
_________
Time: 10:08:47 AM PST US
From: "George Race" <mykitairplane@mrrace.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Chat reminder for "Digesters"
Live Chat Room every Monday evening around 8:00 EDT
www.mykitairplane.com <http://www.mykitairplane.com/>
Click on the Chat Room link on the page.
George
Do Not Archive
________________________________ Message 6 ____________________________
_________
Time: 10:40:05 AM PST US
From: "Phil Maxson " <pmaxpmax@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
Paul,
Larry, I and many others have considered the recommendation of the design
er, the
findings of the European testers, and the lack of action by the FAA and d
ecided
to go flying. I was fortunate enough to be able to give a 10 year old hi
s
first flight in a GA plane last weekend.
Phil Maxson
601XL/Corvair
Ungrounded
------Original Message------
From: Paul Mulwitz
Sent: Jun 14, 2009 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight R
eport.
So, Scott, did you learn anything from your great experience?
Let me guess . . . You and a few other folks with vested interests
in the Zodiac XL are right to ignore the NTSB finding and the whole
rest of the world is wrong.
Paul
XL grounded
do not archive
At 07:06 AM 6/14/2009, you wrote:
>I got Zbagged three times.
________________________________ Message 7 ____________________________
_________
Time: 11:30:59 AM PST US
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
Hi Phil,
You have every right to reach your own conclusion with regard to the
safety of the Zodiac XL. I just think bragging about taking the kind
of chance you are taking like Scott did in his post is a questionable
thing to do. I can't see how anybody can be surprised that the vast
majority of people think the Zodiac XL needs work after being
grounded in several countries and so strongly criticized by the NTSB.
I don't think you understand the FAA. My questions to the managers
at the FAA indicated there is nothing they can do at this
point. They need to perform studies and then issue an NPRM which
takes at least a year before taking any regulatory action. Even
then, they really don't have any interest in amateur built versions
of the XL - only those that are factory built. Those of us who
choose to build experimental airplanes are literally free to kill
ourselves any way we want in the FAA's view.
You are correct that the hired engineer in Germany and the retired
designer of the XL indicated there is no problem. For me, this
doesn't hold much weight against the NTSB ruling. However, as I said
before, this is a decision each of us must make for ourself.
I just wish the Heintzes would go ahead and do the engineering
necessary to satisfy the NTSB ruling so the rest of us can go and
enjoy our Zodiacs too.
Paul
XL grounded
At 10:31 AM 6/14/2009, you wrote:
>Paul,
>
>Larry, I and many others have considered the recommendation of the
>designer, the findings of the European testers, and the lack of
>action by the FAA and decided to go flying. I was fortunate enough
>to be able to give a 10 year old his first flight in a GA plane last wee
kend.
>
>Phil Maxson
>601XL/Corvair
>Ungrounded
________________________________ Message 8 ____________________________
_________
Time: 11:39:18 AM PST US
From: "T. Graziano" <tonyplane@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
See Below: GOTO http://www.zenairulm.com/News/index_files/Page372.htm
and
http://www.zenairulm.com/FAQ/pdfdocs/CH601XL-GVT-June6.pdf for the
aeroelastic analysis test report
Tony Graziano
XL/Jab 501 hrs
--
Zenair Europe has now made public the entire Ground Vibration Test (GVT)
report recently concluded for the Zenair CH 601 XL design. The complete
battery of tests was conducted in response to speculation that flutter co
uld
have contributed to a number of accidents involving the CH 601 XL.
Testing was overseen by Dr. Uwe Weltin, an internationally recognized
flutter and vibrations specialist and head of the Institut fr
Zuverlaessigkeitstechnik at the Technical University of Hamburg-Harburg
(TUHH). GVT results confirm that when the CH 601 XL is built and maintain
ed
to Zenair specifications, there is "no tendency to flutter or divergence
found within the flight envelope of the CH 601 XL".
With the likelihood of flutter now virtually eliminated, Zenair will shor
tly
issue a detailed inspection checklist for CH 601 XL owners, to assist wit
h
maintenance and the on-going airworthiness of the aircraft. This checklis
t
will include control system checks as well as appropriate airspeed indica
tor
(ASI) markings. Zodiac designer Chris Heintz continues to remind pilots n
ot
to exceed the aircraft's design limitations (which can easily be done in
high-performance ultralights); this includes always flying well below VA
in
gusty conditions.
Based on the wide range of the testing parameters used, the detailed repo
rt
fully clears the Zodiac design of flutter-related concerns. "By making th
e
findings of the GVT public in their entirety, we hope to address and put
to
rest the groundless concerns regarding the CH 601 XL design and flutter,"
said Nick Heintz on behalf of Zenair Europe. The full 27-page GVT report
is
now available on-line and can be viewed at the Zenair Europe website.
For more information on the CH 601 XL aircraft, now one of the now most
tested aircraft in its class, contact Zenair or their nearest regional
representative at www.zenairulm.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Maxson " <pmaxpmax@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
>
> Paul,
>
> Larry, I and many others have considered the recommendation of the
> designer, the findings of the European testers, and the lack of action
by
> the FAA and decided to go flying. I was fortunate enough to be able to
> give a 10 year old his first flight in a GA plane last weekend.
>
> Phil Maxson
> 601XL/Corvair
> Ungrounded
> ------Original Message------
> From: Paul Mulwitz
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Jun 14, 2009 11:15 AM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
> Report.
>
>
> So, Scott, did you learn anything from your great experience?
>
> Let me guess . . . You and a few other folks with vested interests
> in the Zodiac XL are right to ignore the NTSB finding and the whole
> rest of the world is wrong.
>
> Paul
> XL grounded
> do not archive
>
>
> At 07:06 AM 6/14/2009, you wrote:
> >I got Zbagged three times.
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 9 ____________________________
_________
Time: 11:55:46 AM PST US
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Re
port.
From: "jonaburns" <lsapilot@HOTMAIL.COM>
I was trying to rent some hanger space last week and the owner asked me w
hat kind
of plane I had. I said it was similar in size to the RV12, but is a Zodi
ac
601XL.
"WHAT?" he said... "Isn't that the plane that is crashing all over the
place?"
I explained that as far as I know, there have been 6 fatal crashes in the
past
couple of years worldwide, and asked if he knew that the RVs had 8 fatal
crashes
in 2008 alone.
Yes, there are many more RVs out there, so we are talking apples to orang
es here,
but there are crashes with other models too. I went on to explain CH's v
iew
on maintenance and some other info, which seemed to lower his blood press
ure.
I then told him about the ZBAG and their efforts to demand root cause at
any cost,
their "Engineer" that continues to support a hypothesis that independent
testing
has shown to be incorrect, and an outspoken member that prances around
confusing "colorful curiosity" with celebrity.
After he stopped laughing, he told me to bring it over and he would make
room.
Jon Burns
CH601XL/Corvair
Almost done....
Little Elm, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248066#248066
________________________________ Message 10 ___________________________
_________
Time: 12:00:28 PM PST US
From: Lawrence Webber <lawrencewebber@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
Paul im really tired of your closed mind its obvious no matter
what reports are issued you will not change your opinion.
Its my belief and desire =2Cthat you should=2C forever :keep your
aircraft grounded. flames expected
Larry
> Date: Sun=2C 14 Jun 2009 11:29:44 -0700
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> From: psm@att.net
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Re
port.
>
>
> Hi Phil=2C
>
> You have every right to reach your own conclusion with regard to the
> safety of the Zodiac XL. I just think bragging about taking the kind
> of chance you are taking like Scott did in his post is a questionable
> thing to do. I can't see how anybody can be surprised that the vast
> majority of people think the Zodiac XL needs work after being
> grounded in several countries and so strongly criticized by the NTSB.
>
> I don't think you understand the FAA. My questions to the managers
> at the FAA indicated there is nothing they can do at this
> point. They need to perform studies and then issue an NPRM which
> takes at least a year before taking any regulatory action. Even
> then=2C they really don't have any interest in amateur built versions
> of the XL - only those that are factory built. Those of us who
> choose to build experimental airplanes are literally free to kill
> ourselves any way we want in the FAA's view.
>
> You are correct that the hired engineer in Germany and the retired
> designer of the XL indicated there is no problem. For me=2C this
> doesn't hold much weight against the NTSB ruling. However=2C as I sai
d
> before=2C this is a decision each of us must make for ourself.
>
> I just wish the Heintzes would go ahead and do the engineering
> necessary to satisfy the NTSB ruling so the rest of us can go and
> enjoy our Zodiacs too.
>
> Paul
> XL grounded
>
>
> At 10:31 AM 6/14/2009=2C you wrote:
> >Paul=2C
> >
> >Larry=2C I and many others have considered the recommendation of the
> >designer=2C the findings of the European testers=2C and the lack o
f
> >action by the FAA and decided to go flying. I was fortunate enough
> >to be able to give a 10 year old his first flight in a GA plane last w
ee
kend.
> >
> >Phil Maxson
> >601XL/Corvair
> >Ungrounded
>
>
>
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that=92s right for you.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
________________________________ Message 11 ___________________________
_________
Time: 12:42:16 PM PST US
From: "T. Graziano" <tonyplane@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL Aileron Mass Balancing
=93A number of individual Zodiac owners as well as government agencies
have recommended the installation of traditional aileron mass balancing
as a means to mitigate any risk of flutter with the Zodiac design. Based
on the standard airframe design examined and on the GVT results and
linear approach of the flutter analysis documented in this report, mass
balancing for the ailerons of the CH601XL (see example Figure 24) or the
use of spades (see Figure 25) is not needed or justified.
While mass balancing of the ailerons is generally believed to prevent
flutter, the extra weight associated with control-surface mass balancing
could have negative consequences if not properly designed and/or
supported. It is possible that modifications to the standard control
system and/or basic airframe structure of the Zodiac could be necessary
to properly install aileron mass balancing on the CH650E.
As any new modification (such as mass balancing) can potentially be
associated with new =93randomly excited non-linear vibrations=94, it
must therefore be =93sound=94 (sensible) through logic and reasoning
and
effective as demonstrated through testing. Sometimes, if one does not
know exactly what one is doing, one can make matters worse with a
well-intentioned modification to an aircraft.
Hamburg, June 6, 2009=94
FYI: Above From the CH601XL GVT Report, Pages 25 and 26.
GOTO http://www.zenairulm.com/FAQ/pdfdocs/CH601XL-GVT-June6.pdf
Tony Graziano
XL/Jab; N493TG; 501 enjoyable hours
________________________________ Message 12 ___________________________
_________
Time: 01:33:07 PM PST US
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Re
port.
From: "hansriet" <hansinla@mac.com>
[quote="jonaburns"]I explained that as far as I know, there have been 6
fatal crashes
in the past couple of years worldwide, and asked if he knew that the RVs
had 8 fatal crashes in 2008 alone.
Jon Burns
CH601XL/Corvair
Almost done....
Little Elm, TX[/quote]
And all RV crashes had identical causes?
Just asking.
Hans
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248077#248077
________________________________ Message 13 ___________________________
_________
Time: 01:40:02 PM PST US
From: "Phil Maxson " <pmaxpmax@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
Paul Mulwitz wrote: "I just think bragging about taking the kind of chan
ce you
are taking like Scott did in his post is a questionable thing to do."
Oh, Paul. This is truly sad. I think you should sell the XL, buy the LS
A you're
leasing, get on their email list, hire an engineer to analyze that other
design,
bug people on that list, and leave us alone. Then at Sun-n-Fun 2010 you
can yell at those nice people too.
Please don't reply to this email. You're back on the ignore list. Sorry
man.
Phil Maxson
601XL/Corvair
Saddened, but not grounded
________________________________ Message 14 ___________________________
_________
Time: 01:54:35 PM PST US
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
To all those charming people who have suggested I should sell the
airplane I have invested 4 years of my life in, I have the following resp
onse.
Please make an offer to buy my plane. To my knowledge, there is
nobody on Earth willing to buy an XL right now at any price. I would
be delighted to be proved wrong.
Paul
XL grounded
do not archive
At 01:35 PM 6/14/2009, you wrote:
>Oh, Paul. This is truly sad. I think you should sell the XL
________________________________ Message 15 ___________________________
_________
Time: 02:12:49 PM PST US
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Fligh
t Report.
From: jaybannist@cs.com
Hans,
Not an answer to your question (which is totally irrelevant anyway), but
to your
implication.? If, by your loaded question, you are implying that all the
XL
crashes "had identical causes",? you are WAY off base !!!? You will have
to find
some other "skunk up a tree" to bark at.
Jay Bannister
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: hansriet <hansinla@mac.com>
Sent: Sun, Jun 14, 2009 3:32 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Re
port.
[quote="jonaburns"]I explained that as far as I know, there have been 6
fatal
crashes in the past couple of years worldwide, and asked if he knew that
the RVs
had 8 fatal crashes in 2008 alone.
Jon Burns
CH601XL/Corvair
Almost done....
Little Elm, TX[/quote]
And all RV crashes had identical causes?
Just asking.
Hans
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248077#248077
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
________________________________ Message 16 ___________________________
_________
Time: 02:13:41 PM PST US
From: Jim Belcher <z601@anemicaardvark.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
On Sunday 14 June 2009 15:51, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
>
> To all those charming people who have suggested I should sell the
> airplane I have invested 4 years of my life in, I have the following
> response.
>
> Please make an offer to buy my plane. To my knowledge, there is
> nobody on Earth willing to buy an XL right now at any price. I would
> be delighted to be proved wrong.
1) Who built it?
2) What engine does it have?
3) Where is it?
===================
You can check on my aircraft construction
progress at: http://www.mykitlog.com/santaigo
======================
Jim B. Belcher
BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Instrument Rated Pilot
General Radio Telephone Certificate
Retired Aerospace Technical Manager
======================
________________________________ Message 17 ___________________________
_________
Time: 02:49:46 PM PST US
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Re
port.
From: Iberplanes IGL <iberplanes@gmail.com>
Right Paul, the same happens here in Europe. That=B4s to sad for all of
us.
Also take a look at barnstormers, you=B4ll have plenty of XLs.
bye,
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
----------------------------------------------
Zodiac 601 XL Builder
Serial: 6-7011
Tail Kit: Finished
Wings: Not Started
Fuselage: @ home
Engine: Jabiru 3300
________________________________ Message 18 ___________________________
_________
Time: 02:52:14 PM PST US
From: "Dave" <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Fligh
t Report.
Instead of ranting and raving, and launcing ad hominem attacks on
individuals who's reaction to concerns about safety is different than
yours. Why don't you resort to the only truth we know so far.
No known cause of structural failures has thus far been determined, and
all tests so far conducted have revealed no significant shortcomings in
the design.
Any belief that the airframe IS without fault is simply conjecture, as
is the belief that there is a major fault.
Coming forth with another pointless attack and starting this whole
argument up again is childish and stupid.
Zbag is a group concerned with ensuring your (and their own) safety as
far as I have been advised, and they have accomplished some sound work
in that direction although it did not reveal a fault. Safety is a
worthwhile endeavour, even if it is inconvenient from time to time. It
appears at this time that the XL is safe to fly if strict attention is
applied to make sure that the flight envelope is never breached, and
maintenance is applied to a strict standard. I hope that future
statistics reinforce that opinion.
________________________________ Message 19 ___________________________
_________
Time: 03:02:15 PM PST US
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
Hi Jim,
I built it from standard kit. I scrapped the first wing, so I have
actually built three wings. The final configuration, of course, only
has two wings. I have approximately 1500 digital pictures of all the
phases of construction. (Anybody who wants copies of the pictures
can have them if only they will supply storage media - a 2 GB thumb
drive or SD card will work fine).
Equipment on the plane includes:
A brand new Jabiru 3300 engine - completely installed but never
started. It still has the factory "Pickle Juice" in it. FWF kit
including wood Sensenich prop from Jabiru USA.
Dynon D100 EFIS and D120 EMS both with extra bright screen.
Dynon HS-34.
Garmin SL-30 with both Comm and Nav antennas installed.
Garmin GTX 320 transponder with Dynon Serial to parallel converter
and antenna.
All the electronics are installed and apparently working. The
transponder has not yet been tested. SL-30 Comm works fine, but the
nav portion not yet verified (no signal to receive in my
hangar). The Dynon functions have been mostly verified but no tubes
yet run for pitot/static. The EFIS and EMS and HS-34 are connected
and talk to each other just fine. The mag sensor is connected to the
EFIS and working. Sockets installed and tested for two headsets.
The plane has not yet been inspected for airworthiness. It could be
ready for that inspection in a week or two (less before removing the
wings for long term storage). Flap stops and aileron stops have been
installed. All electrical wiring has been done except for final
connection of wing mounted devices - fuel senders, strobe power,
position lights. Those were connected except for the fuel senders
which have never been hooked up. Similarly, the fuel lines have not
ever been hooked up to the tank selector, but the rest of the fuel
system is installed.
Kit options include wing lockers, strobes, Nav lights, and dual toe
brakes, center Y stick and hingeless ailerons. No landing lights.
The kit has mostly been assembled according to the drawings. One
exception is addition of gussets between the wing attach uprights and
top longerons. That change was approved by N. Heintz (as not causing
a problem, but not necessarily any good). Also, my own design for
dual throttles is installed. It is very smooth - unlike the dual
throttle kit I bought from Jabiru USA which was difficult to move at
all because of all the sharp cable bends.
The plane has been painted on the interior part of the cabin and the
bottom of the cabin. The rest is unpainted. Internal joints are
directly connected without any primer - as suggested by EAA advisors.
The plane is located in Camas, WA (1W1). It is currently in 3 pieces
- 2 wings and all the rest.
If anybody really wants to buy it, I would certainly consider selling
it. Price would have to cover all the brand new electronics and
engine. Also, buyer would have to sign a contract indicating they
understand it is an experimental airplane, built by an amateur and
currently under suspicion of having a fatal design flaw that has
killed at least 10 people from in-flight structure failures.
I would expect any buyer to arrange for crating and shipment to their
location. Inspection can be done at any time with prior appointment.
Paul
Camas, WA
do not archive
[]
At 02:16 PM 6/14/2009, you wrote:
> > Please make an offer to buy my plane. To my knowledge, there is
> > nobody on Earth willing to buy an XL right now at any price. I would
> > be delighted to be proved wrong.
>
>
>1) Who built it?
>2) What engine does it have?
>3) Where is it?
________________________________ Message 20 ___________________________
_________
Time: 03:14:28 PM PST US
From: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
The big difference here is that the engineers who did the GVT have
actually studied this particular aircraft design in great detail while
the Bureaucrats who wrote the NTSB report have not.
On Jun 14, 2009, at 2:29 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
>
> You are correct that the hired engineer in Germany and the retired
> designer of the XL indicated there is no problem. For me, this
> doesn't hold much weight against the NTSB ruling. However, as I
> said before, this is a decision each of us must make for ourself.
>
> I just wish the Heintzes would go ahead and do the engineering
> necessary to satisfy the NTSB ruling so the rest of us can go and
> enjoy our Zodiacs too.
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
________________________________ Message 21 ___________________________
_________
Time: 03:54:31 PM PST US
From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Re
port.
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 06:08:34PM -0400, Bryan Martin wrote:
> The big difference here is that the engineers who did the GVT have actu
ally
> studied this particular aircraft design in great detail while the
> Bureaucrats who wrote the NTSB report have not.
..and this is enough to convince me that flutter isn't the problem.
We still don't know what *is* the problem.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
________________________________ Message 22 ___________________________
_________
Time: 03:54:31 PM PST US
From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Re
port.
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 07:06:48AM -0700, cookwithgas wrote:
> The next time you, as a Zenith builder or flyer get ZBAGGED, post it he
re
> and let us know about it. Terry Phillips (not Bill) and his merry gang
of
> zbaggers have really made my flying experiences interesting! I used to
> get compliments on the airplane but now I get compliments, then grimace
s.
> At least nobody recognizes the airplane until I tell them~!
OKKAY, THAT'S FUCKING *IT*!
Stop blaming ZBAG for the Zodiac's public perception problems. ZBAG didn'
t
do it. The NTSB did. ZBAG, as with ANY OTHER INTERESTED PERSON!, sumitted
its comments and concerns to the NTSB. The NTSB was free to include or
ignore those comments as it saw fit. Obviously, it saw fit to include the
m.
ZBAG acted out of NO OTHER MOTIVATION than ensuring the safety of the fle
et.
ZBAG did so a FULL YEAR before the NTSB sent out its recommedation. It di
d
so LONG BEFORE Zenair and the Heintz family did more than post the same
pictures of static testing with no mention of anything else. ZBAG led the
way in ensuring the safety of the Zodiac fleet. If you don't like that,
that's JUST TOO FUCKING BAD!
Now, QUIT YOUR GODDAMNED PISSING AND MOANING and go fly your fucking
AIRPLANE! Since you obviously don't care aobut safety, go see how it does
above Vne, while you're at it.
Just for the record, I just got back from a fly in at Gaston's White Rive
r
Resort in Arkansas. I flew somewhere around 13 hours getting there, flyin
g
around the area, and geting back. I answered lots of questions. I also
didn't sell my airplane, but I wasn't expecting to, either.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
________________________________ Message 23 ___________________________
_________
Time: 04:13:48 PM PST US
From: Juan Vega <amyvega2005@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Fligh
t Report.
Perfect explaination and resopnse to bad gossip and heresay. A great reb
uttal.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: jonaburns <lsapilot@HOTMAIL.COM>
>Sent: Jun 14, 2009 2:55 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight R
eport.
>
>
>I was trying to rent some hanger space last week and the owner asked me
what kind
of plane I had. I said it was similar in size to the RV12, but is a Zodi
ac
601XL.
>
>"WHAT?" he said... "Isn't that the plane that is crashing all over th
e place?"
>
>I explained that as far as I know, there have been 6 fatal crashes in th
e past
couple of years worldwide, and asked if he knew that the RVs had 8 fatal
crashes
in 2008 alone.
>
>Yes, there are many more RVs out there, so we are talking apples to oran
ges here,
but there are crashes with other models too. I went on to explain CH's v
iew
on maintenance and some other info, which seemed to lower his blood press
ure.
>
>I then told him about the ZBAG and their efforts to demand root cause at
any cost,
their "Engineer" that continues to support a hypothesis that independent
testing has shown to be incorrect, and an outspoken member that prances a
round
confusing "colorful curiosity" with celebrity.
>
>After he stopped laughing, he told me to bring it over and he would make
room.
>
>
>Jon Burns
>CH601XL/Corvair
>Almost done....
>Little Elm, TX
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248066#248066
>
>
________________________________ Message 24 ___________________________
_________
Time: 04:23:48 PM PST US
From: Juan Vega <amyvega2005@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
Paul,
your clearly not happy. You need to sell your plane and fly a certified
plane.
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
>Sent: Jun 14, 2009 2:29 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
>
>
>Hi Phil,
>
>You have every right to reach your own conclusion with regard to the
>safety of the Zodiac XL. I just think bragging about taking the kind
>of chance you are taking like Scott did in his post is a questionable
>thing to do. I can't see how anybody can be surprised that the vast
>majority of people think the Zodiac XL needs work after being
>grounded in several countries and so strongly criticized by the NTSB.
>
>I don't think you understand the FAA. My questions to the managers
>at the FAA indicated there is nothing they can do at this
>point. They need to perform studies and then issue an NPRM which
>takes at least a year before taking any regulatory action. Even
>then, they really don't have any interest in amateur built versions
>of the XL - only those that are factory built. Those of us who
>choose to build experimental airplanes are literally free to kill
>ourselves any way we want in the FAA's view.
>
>You are correct that the hired engineer in Germany and the retired
>designer of the XL indicated there is no problem. For me, this
>doesn't hold much weight against the NTSB ruling. However, as I said
>before, this is a decision each of us must make for ourself.
>
>I just wish the Heintzes would go ahead and do the engineering
>necessary to satisfy the NTSB ruling so the rest of us can go and
>enjoy our Zodiacs too.
>
>Paul
>XL grounded
>
>
>At 10:31 AM 6/14/2009, you wrote:
>>Paul,
>>
>>Larry, I and many others have considered the recommendation of the
>>designer, the findings of the European testers, and the lack of
>>action by the FAA and decided to go flying. I was fortunate enough
>>to be able to give a 10 year old his first flight in a GA plane last we
ekend.
>>
>>Phil Maxson
>>601XL/Corvair
>>Ungrounded
>
>
________________________________ Message 25 ___________________________
_________
Time: 04:47:19 PM PST US
From: Juan Vega <amyvega2005@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
Paul,
NTSB did not find anything, they published a report based on pblic press
ure from
a few, and not clearly reading all the results of the reports, or waiting
for
the GVT test results to be completed. PLease sell your plane.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Phil Maxson <pmaxpmax@HOTMAIL.COM>
>Sent: Jun 14, 2009 1:31 PM
>To: "zenith-list@matronics.com " <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
>
>
>Paul,
>
>Larry, I and many others have considered the recommendation of the desig
ner, the
findings of the European testers, and the lack of action by the FAA and d
ecided
to go flying. I was fortunate enough to be able to give a 10 year old hi
s
first flight in a GA plane last weekend.
>
>Phil Maxson
>601XL/Corvair
>Ungrounded
>------Original Message------
>From: Paul Mulwitz
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Jun 14, 2009 11:15 AM
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
>
>
> So, Scott, did you learn anything from your great experience?
>
> Let me guess . . . You and a few other folks with vested interests
> in the Zodiac XL are right to ignore the NTSB finding and the whole
> rest of the world is wrong.
>
> Paul
> XL grounded
> do not archive
>
>
> At 07:06 AM 6/14/2009, you wrote:
> >I got Zbagged three times.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 26 ___________________________
_________
Time: 04:57:33 PM PST US
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Re
port.
From: "jonaburns" <lsapilot@HOTMAIL.COM>
Jay,
Thanks for once again showing your stability. That kind of language has
no business
here. I usually allow my 7 and 12 year olds to read the posts, but I gue
ss
I will have to restrict them to books again.
Has anyone seen anything of Sabrina around this list?
This list has migrated from being entirely informative, to a polarized me
ss. I
am as guilty as many others as to keeping on topic, but this type of reac
tion
is not acceptable.
Jon Burns
Little Elm, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248109#248109
________________________________ Message 27 ___________________________
_________
Time: 05:08:05 PM PST US
From: Juan Vega <amyvega2005@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight R
eport.
I got my story to tell.
Yesterady was a pretty day to go flying here in St. Pete. 10 knot sea br
eaze .
vis 10 miles plus. SO I call the tower on ground and state "427jv with A
TIS
at south side requesting south bound departure".
Tower" runway 7, winds 330-10, err good luck"
Me-" runway 7,"
then runup complete, I call" 427jv, runup complete ready for take off"
Tower- "roger 427jv clear for take off, squawk 1030, mqake right traffic
, err
good luck."
Me- " clear for takeoff, runway 7 squawking 1030, good luck to you too."
1 hour later, same thing,
Me-" 427jv 5 miles west inbound,"
Tower- "runway 25 clear to Land , alt 2999, err, good luck"
Me- runway 25 clear to land, and good luck to you.
Tower "good luck to me? i am not the one in a 601."
ZBAGED!~!
Juan
-----Original Message-----
>From: cookwithgas <cookwithgas@HOTMAIL.COM>
>Sent: Jun 14, 2009 10:06 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Repor
t.
>
>
>On friday my daughter and I flew to Austin, Texas and back plus a little
sightseeing
with an old friend, adding four hours to the 601XL hobbs.
>
>I got Zbagged three times. I'll explain later in the story. I left Gran
d Prairie
at 10:00AM with no flight plan except to head South and find Georgetown o
n
the GPS once I got in the air. I had looked at the sectional beforehand
and
noticed Waco on the way so decided to stop there for fuel.
>
>I had checked the weather and had good reports the night before but it l
ooked
nasty all around us when we decided to take off. The clouds were high, s
o we
contacted ground, then tower and departed toward the South. We found an
untowered
executive airport near Waco and landed for fuel. It was a full-service p
lace
and I paid $4.47 for fuel. I only needed 10 gallons and the lady inside
told me most people complain about the price. I told her it was worth it
because
they helped me find Georgetown and told me about some towers to avoid alo
ng
with some other advice for the area. While I was in there I ran into a g
uy
who was staring at my airplane from the office. He said it looked better
than
most RV's he has seen. I told him it was a CH601XL and he got this funny
look
on his face as if to be surprised that I had actually flown it there. He
said
"isn't that the one that the wings fall off?" I said yes and I would not
fly
over the office on departure if it would make him
!
> feel better. ZBAGGED at my first stop!
>
>Next stop Georgetown. I have some friends I have not seen in many years
living
near Austin and had made arrangements to meet them there and take them fl
ying
over their property. I contacted the tower and landed on a beautiful day
and
was met on the ramp by an old man with a walkie talkie who inquired about
my
fuel needs and whether or not I'd be staying over night. He said it woul
d cost
me $4 if I decided to stay overnight unless I purchased fuel. He then as
ked
me what kind of airplane it was and he noted that it "sure is shiny." I
told
hm and he right away put on the ZBAG face. "oooooh" he said with a grima
ce.
I told him I had a BRS and he said "good idea." ZBAGGED for the second
time
in one day!
>
>My daughter went shopping with the wife and I took the husband flying ov
er their
property and had a wonderful time making tight turns over their house and
doing
slow and low flights over their barn, waving at their kids and sister bac
k
at the house. I think he may have been bitten by the bug and I wouldn'
t be
surprised if my friend starts taking flying lessons soon. We headed back
to
Georgetown airport over some beautiful lakes and called at 10-miles out.
The
non-FAA tower guy told me to do a right pattern for runway 18 and call wh
en I
was two-miles out. I continued chatting with my friend, then at about 5
miles
out the tower called back. "5-sierra-lima, what kind of airplane are you
flying?"
I told him a CH601XL. Long pause. "Uuuuhhhh." long pause again. "Is
that a Zenith 601XL?" Yes Sir I replied. "Uuuuh." another pause. "How f
ast
are you traveling?" "Indicating 115 sir" I replied. "OK that's good....
you
be careful...... enter right downwind for 18, cleare
!
> d to land" ZBAGGED again! I guess the walkie talkie guy had been tal
king to
the tower guy while I was gone. Or maybe he had been reading his copy of
AOPA
while I was gone.
>
>It was a great day of flying and with a tail-wind and smoother air retur
ning to
Grand Prairie. The skies were kind of hazy when we got near home but tha
t took
away the bumps. The tower at Grand Prairie knows me now (maybe they aler
t
the fire trucks every time I call in) and they call me "five-zero-lima."
I think
it's funny they get my call sign wrong most of the time. It is probably
the way I say "sierra."
>
>The next time you, as a Zenith builder or flyer get ZBAGGED, post it her
e and
let us know about it. Terry Phillips (not Bill) and his merry gang of zb
aggers
have really made my flying experiences interesting! I used to get compli
ments
on the airplane but now I get compliments, then grimaces. At least nobod
y
recognizes the airplane until I tell them~!
>
>Scott in Texas
>601XL/Corvair
>136 hours and climbing
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248034#248034
>
>
________________________________ Message 28 ___________________________
_________
Time: 05:08:05 PM PST US
From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Re
port.
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 07:23:18PM -0400, Juan Vega wrote:
> your clearly not happy. You need to sell your plane and fly a certifie
d
> plane.
I don't know why you keep raising this red herring. There are lots of
experimental aircraft that haven't had a rash of unexplained in-flight
structural failures. It's not about certificated vs. experimental. It's
about a manufacturer's response to bad news: do they stonewall, or do the
y
forthrightly and publicly address the problem? I'm quite happy to see Zen
ith
move from the former to the latter with regard to the GVT testing, and ho
pe
they do so as completely as humanly possible. (And I still think ZBAG is
wrong not to do the same.)
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
________________________________ Message 29 ___________________________
_________
Time: 05:22:07 PM PST US
From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Fligh
t Report.
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 04:56:21PM -0700, jonaburns wrote:
> Thanks for once again showing your stability. That kind of language ha
s
> no business here.
Neither do the personal attacks that seem to be the stock in trade of som
e
posters around here. The use of the term "Zbagged" in such a fashion was
the
last straw for me.
> This list has migrated from being entirely informative, to a polarized
> mess. I am as guilty as many others as to keeping on topic, but this ty
pe
> of reaction is not acceptable.
Neither was the post that provoked it, or the subsequent post that used t
he
same term.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
________________________________ Message 30 ___________________________
_________
Time: 05:26:16 PM PST US
From: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@primus.ca>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
Chatted to a knowledgeable person up here in Canada. He told me the XL h
ad
been tested up to 400 mph with no problems. Now if only we could persuad
e
some drivers not to jerk the stick..
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
________________________________ Message 31 ___________________________
_________
Time: 05:34:04 PM PST US
From: Lawrence Webber <lawrencewebber@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Fligh
t Report.
hey tron guy=2C go to google type in zbag scroll down to urban legand d
efin
ition the definition sure fits flame on
Larry
> Date: Sun=2C 14 Jun 2009 19:20:01 -0500
> From: jmaynard@conmicro.com
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Fli
gh
t Report.
>
>
> On Sun=2C Jun 14=2C 2009 at 04:56:21PM -0700=2C jonaburns wrote:
> > Thanks for once again showing your stability. That kind of language h
as
> > no business here.
>
> Neither do the personal attacks that seem to be the stock in trade of s
om
e
> posters around here. The use of the term "Zbagged" in such a fashion wa
s
the
> last straw for me.
>
> > This list has migrated from being entirely informative=2C to a pola
rize
d
> > mess. I am as guilty as many others as to keeping on topic=2C but t
his
type
> > of reaction is not acceptable.
>
> Neither was the post that provoked it=2C or the subsequent post that
used
the
> same term.
> --
> Jay Maynard=2C K5ZC=2C PP-ASEL=2C CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
> http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
> Fairmont=2C MN (KFRM) (Yes=2C that's me!)
> AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
>
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail=AE.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_T
ut
orial_QuickAdd_062009
________________________________ Message 32 ___________________________
_________
Time: 05:55:42 PM PST US
From: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Subject: Re: [Probable Spam] Re: Zenith-List: Re: I got Zbagged three tim
es on
Friday - Flight Report.
Hi Dave,
I've commented that the flutter was an unlikely problem for the XLs that
failed. Aside from overloading, mishandling or workmanship, the one
significant change from HD and HDS series design was the longer, thinner
wing and center section that is the shorter focal point for the leverage
of the longer wing. Same fuel loading, baggage, people and engines.
Photos of the damaged parts suggest to me that the failure occurs in the
center section. You only have to count the frequency of fractures and
cracks in the center spar to realize the problem is focused in that
area. The wings are beat up from impact, but the cracks, fractures and
failure of the center spar show an intense concentration of stresses
there before and after impact with the ground.
The numbers prove the center spar is adequate for the designed loads,
but beyond the safety factor, fatigue and an overly responsive elevator
can easily rewrite this equation.
Id hope too that they are looking at each aircraft's time of
construction, process and design evolution and Airworthiness date.
Something will eventually be discovered thats specifically relevant.
I began my HDS 1998-9, just before the first updated plans for the XL
were available, or I'd certainly have built the XL for its speed and
flaps etc. Given hindsight of the recent year, I 'd still have gone with
the XL as it's a very capable, modern design. Time will show the XL to
be an aircraft that can be safely flown for thousands of hours over many
years if its constructed properly and religiously flown within its
design envelope.
Id recommend you continue to fly and observe the common sense rules for
your 601XLs and enjoy the benefits before TSA and the nanny politicos
take over to protect us from ourselves.
Do fly safe, respectfully,
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Dave wrote:
> Instead of ranting and raving, and launcing ad hominem attacks on
> individuals who's reaction to concerns about safety is different than
> yours. Why don't you resort to the only truth we know so far.
> No known cause of structural failures has thus far been determined,
> and all tests so far conducted have revealed no significant
> shortcomings in the design.
> Any belief that the airframe IS without fault is simply conjecture, as
> is the belief that there is a major fault.
> *
> *
________________________________ Message 33 ___________________________
_________
Time: 06:22:05 PM PST US
From: Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
>Let me guess . . . You and a few other folks with vested interests
>in the Zodiac XL are right to ignore the NTSB finding and the whole
>rest of the world is wrong.
>
>Paul
>XL grounded
Paul, having met you and chatted at SnF, I'm sure that you're bright enou
gh to
know beforehand that posting such polarizing comments only serves to stir
the
pot, muddy the waters, and gets the Zenith 601 community no closer to any
kind
of reasonable understanding of this issue.
Apparently, you've divided us into two camps; "folks with vested interest
s in the
Zodiac XL" and the "whole rest of the world". How insulting. As if owning
a
601XL is tantamount to some form of suicidal self-delusion and willful ig
norance.
Mark Twain once observed something along the lines of "A lie will be half
way around
the world before the truth can get its boots on." And now we're seeing th
e
same thing happen when we fly our 601s and those who don't know any bette
r
make some comment about the "wings falling off". And the recent AOPA arti
cle,
written some time ago without all of the facts, bolstered that perception
as well.
Hopefully, some journalistic integrity will kick in and they'll print som
e
form of a retraction.
YOU, however, have no excuse for posting such reckless observations, espe
cially
after I (and others) have patiently answered every one of your concerns w
ith
the following:
The 601XL elevator is extremely sensitive, and sudden full down deflectio
ns at
high airspeeds will compromise the wing attachments. Flying with loose ai
leron
cables may induce flutter leading to catastrophic failure. The airframe w
as never
designed for aerobatics, flight into severe turbulence or thunderstorms.
The airframe must be constructed of factory approved materials, substitut
ion of
weaker or improper airframe parts may compromise safety. And don't forget
to
install the flap stops.
Seems to me that Zenith has addressed all of the above in the recent past
, even
to the point of extensive GVT. However, you (and a few others here) keep
insisting
that the airframe has a "fatal flaw" in spite of the data to the contrary
I can only assume that such incendiary grandstanding in a public forum is
done
out of a need to stroke one's ego (at the expense of the 601 community),
since
you repeatedly keep ignoring recent evidence that presents a much differe
nt picture
than the one you keep offering up as fact.
You've grounded your airplane, and that's your call. No one has second gu
essed
your decision to do so. So please allow us to fly ours without the insult
s, and
we'll call it even, OK?
Rick Lindstrom
N42KP
________________________________ Message 34 ___________________________
_________
Time: 06:27:09 PM PST US
From: <paulrod36@msn.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
OK, one grand, where is, as is. No, make that TWO grand. I'll put mine
away, finish and fly yours, just to prove the point. No, I don't really
expect you to take me up on it, but you might think along the lines of
adding a BRS, and enjoy flying it. From what you've written over the
years, it sounds like your workmanship is up to snuff, so why not add
one more accessory for peace of mind, and go have a good time.
Paul R
601XL/Corvair
anxiously awaiting my nitrided crank
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Mulwitz<mailto:psm@att.net>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
<psm@att.net<mailto:psm@att.net>>
To all those charming people who have suggested I should sell the
airplane I have invested 4 years of my life in, I have the following
response.
Please make an offer to buy my plane. To my knowledge, there is
nobody on Earth willing to buy an XL right now at any price. I would
be delighted to be proved wrong.
Paul
XL grounded
do not archive
At 01:35 PM 6/14/2009, you wrote:
>Oh, Paul. This is truly sad. I think you should sell the XL
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Zenith-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
________________________________ Message 35 ___________________________
_________
Time: 06:48:42 PM PST US
From: "Dave" <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
Is it only polarizing incediary grandstanding when it is critical of tho
se
insulting those who were or are looking for a way to identify potential
safety issues, or can we assume there has been more than enough crap flun
g
from both sides?
Remember this list was once again a civil conversation about building and
flying issues until some fool had to have another shot.
________________________________ Message 36 ___________________________
_________
Time: 07:03:53 PM PST US
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
Gee Thanks Paul,
Two grand is not a really generous offer for over $30,000 worth of
brand new avionics and engine. That doesn't even give a penny of
value for the airframe.
Sorry, your bid is not acceptable.
Paul
At 06:26 PM 6/14/2009, you wrote:
>OK, one grand, where is, as is. No, make that TWO grand. I'll put
>mine away, finish and fly yours, just to prove the point. No, I
>don't really expect you to take me up on it, but you might think
>along the lines of adding a BRS, and enjoy flying it. From what
>you've written over the years, it sounds like your workmanship is up
>to snuff, so why not add one more accessory for peace of mind, and
>go have a good time.
>
>Paul R
>601XL/Corvair
>anxiously awaiting my nitrided crank
________________________________ Message 37 ___________________________
_________
Time: 07:20:15 PM PST US
From: Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
Yes, Dave, it WAS nice around here while it lasted, wasn't it?
However, the sullied reputation of the 601XL will remain so until the hoo
pla is
allowed to die down. Unfortunately, this may take awhile, ss evidenced by
the
negative comments gathered by those who've endured them and reported them
here.
Frankly, I'm a bit stunned by the comments from those who choose to ignor
e the
recent GVT data and continue to press the "fatal flaw" theory. Sure, the
601XL
airframe is just not going to put up with the same abuse that other airfr
ames
might handle. But then, it's not stressed for aerobatics or intended for
rough
weather conditions.
I'm very fortunate to have access to several airplanes to fly, and I'll c
hoose
the right one for the mission at hand. The 601XL is a great, good-weather
, fun-flying
type airplane. If there's any weather involved, or anything beyond light
to moderate chop, I'll take a different one.
It is what it is. It ain't what it ain't. Why is this so hard to understa
nd?
Rick
-----Original Message-----
>From: Dave <d.goddard@ns.sympatico.ca>
>Sent: Jun 14, 2009 9:44 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
>
>
>Is it only polarizing incediary grandstanding when it is critical of th
ose
>insulting those who were or are looking for a way to identify potential
>safety issues, or can we assume there has been more than enough crap flu
ng
>from both sides?
>
>Remember this list was once again a civil conversation about building an
d
>flying issues until some fool had to have another shot.
>
>
________________________________ Message 38 ___________________________
_________
Time: 08:03:33 PM PST US
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Re
port.
From: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon@comcast.net>
Paul,
> I just wish the Heintzes would go ahead and do the engineering
> necessary to satisfy the NTSB ruling so the rest of us can go and
> enjoy our Zodiacs too.
The NTSB only makes recommendations, they do not make rules.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
http://home.comcast.net/~rlendon/site/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248142#248142
________________________________ Message 39 ___________________________
_________
Time: 08:35:48 PM PST US
From: JAPhillipsGA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Get Me the Hell Off this Ride
Whoever is in control of this list about the 601 XL airplanes please
remove me from whatever list sends me e-mails about that plane. 4 - 5
years
ago when I was building my XL and for a long time afterward I enjoyed th
e
fellowship of like minded builders. Now there appears to be way too many
DICK
HEADS and too few builders. Stop sending me e-mails. Bill Phillips, 601X
L
3300Jab 145 Hrs
a message dated 6/14/2009 11:04:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
rlendon@comcast.net writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" <rlendon@comcast.net>
Paul,
> I just wish the Heintzes would go ahead and do the engineering
> necessary to satisfy the NTSB ruling so the rest of us can go and
> enjoy our Zodiacs too.
The NTSB only makes recommendations, they do not make rules.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
http://home.comcast.net/~rlendon/site/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248142#248142
**************Choose the home loan that saves you the most $$$. Agents
available at ditech.com
1%2F)
________________________________ Message 40 ___________________________
_________
Time: 08:37:14 PM PST US
From: JohnDRead@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight
Report.
Paul, I thought we had told you to get lost. Your vituperative comments a
re
not appreciated.
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
**************Choose the home loan that saves you the most $$$. Agents
available at ditech.com
1%2F)
________________________________ Message 41 ___________________________
_________
Time: 08:41:19 PM PST US
From: JohnDRead@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight R
eport.
Temper temper. I hope you get thrown off the list for your bad attitude.
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
**************Choose the home loan that saves you the most $$$. Agents
available at ditech.com
1%2F)
________________________________ Message 42 ___________________________
_________
Time: 09:10:15 PM PST US
From: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Re
port.
When I was a kid, I used to read every night before sleep,-(now old) book
s of adventure travel around the world, I dreamed to be a Indiana Jones T
yp
e of guy. The guy with the Land Rover with a canoe in the roof, in the Ca
me
l cigarettes advetizing was "me as a grown up guy"-photo :-)- ....
-
Now about-this mail (Paul's answer)- came into memory one book from old
-Arabia...--
-
And I remember this part:
It was known that-camels were (probably still are) very dificult to train
..- The said they are worse than mules...- So when-a guy had a reall
y dificult camel and beguin-complaining-about his camel...- There was
a saying:
"Dont talk-bad things about your camel, or you will not sell it"--
-
Well, only some memories from my-live, previous to TV and internet and Ze
nith-airplanes-life :-)
-
Saludos
Gary Gower
Building 601 XL- Jab 3300.
Fuselage finished, start building-the flutter free wings-:-)
Do not archive
-
--- On Sun, 6/14/09, Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net> wrote:
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Re
po
rt.
To all those charming people who have suggested I should sell the airplan
e
I have invested 4 years of my life in, I have the following response.
Please make an offer to buy my plane.- To my knowledge, there is nobody o
n Earth willing to buy an XL right now at any price.- I would be delighte
d to be proved wrong.
Paul
XL grounded
do not archive
At 01:35 PM 6/14/2009, you wrote:
> Oh, Paul.- This is truly sad.- I think you should sell the XL
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
________________________________ Message 43 ___________________________
_________
Time: 09:50:05 PM PST US
From: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Fligh
t Report.
Hello Larry,
-
That-IS good english school for foreigners!-- :-)- :-)- :-)
-
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Do not archive.
--- On Sun, 6/14/09, Lawrence Webber <lawrencewebber@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
From: Lawrence Webber <lawrencewebber@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Fligh
t
Report.
#yiv44164203 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv44164203 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}
hey tron guy, go to google type in zbag scroll down to urban legand defin
it
ion-- the definition sure fits---- flame on
Larry
-
> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:20:01 -0500
> From: jmaynard@conmicro.com
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Fli
gh
t Report.
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 04:56:21PM -0700, jonaburns wrote:
> > Thanks for once again showing your stability. That kind of language h
as
> > no business here.
>
> Neither do the personal attacks that seem to be the stock in trade of s
om
e
> posters around here. The use of the term "Zbagged" in such a fashion wa
s
the
> last straw for me.
>
> > This list has migrated from being entirely informative, to a polarize
d
> > mess. I am as guilty as many others as to keeping on topic, but this
ty
pe
> > of reaction is not acceptable.
>
> Neither was the post that provoked it, or the subsequent post that used
t
he
> same term.
> --
> Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
> http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
> Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
> AMD Zodiac CH601XL Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>=
>
>
>
Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail=AE. See how.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 100
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG, a respectful question: a modest answer |
I so wanted to stay out of this, however I cannot stand by and allow a few
who don't know me to imply that because I am a member of ZBAG, I would like
to kill off the 601XL. Doesn't pass the sniff test. I have a big investment
in time and money in my project. It's on hold for the present. My grand kids
will not be allowed in it until a few things get ironed out.
As Rick says, "Pilots that only fly FAR 23 A/C have trouble with LSAs." I
guess I may have some trouble despite owning a Champ and Luscombe. Despite
having many hours in FAR 23, 27, 29, CAR 3 and a couple of E-AB A/C, including
a 601XL, I guess I don't have a chance. My first thought is if this is the
horse that can't be rode and it has known bad traits, Why put low timers in
it? Can't these quirks be fixed? I used to instruct in helos and sailplanes
and I cannot trust an aircraft that will scare a low time pilot. I have
faith that the LAA will civilize the 601XL.
I bet that most of the ZBAG haters have only gone on the site to use their
flame throwers. Its a shame that they don't take some time to go through the
stuff in the "Files" section. That stuff is available to everybody and may
even be educational.
Terry has some good points about control balancing. Its hard to find
anything flying that doesn't use mass balance. It is that accepted world wide.
See
Zenair Newsletters 40 and 41 for a Zenith design. Most small planes use 1.5
to 2 LB per wing. The Sonex uses 5LB and is trouble free.
If there were no accidents with the 601XL, we would not be having this
conversation and I would have my project finished.
Bob Dingley
601XL (holding at the wings)
**************
Download the AOL Classifieds Toolbar for local deals at your
fingertips.
(http://toolbar.aol.com/aolclassifieds/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000004)
Message 101
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| Subject: | Re: ZBAG, a respectful question: a modest answer |
Well said Bob. I sincerely hope you are right.
Paul
XL grounded
At 10:19 PM 6/16/2009, you wrote:
>My first thought is if this is the horse that can't be rode and it
>has known bad traits, Why put low timers in it? Can't these quirks
>be fixed? I used to instruct in helos and sailplanes and I cannot
>trust an aircraft that will scare a low time pilot. I have faith
>that the LAA will civilize the 601XL.
Message 102
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| Subject: | Re: Quick open poll about wing failures. |
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