---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/25/09: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:10 AM - Re: DFW Builders get together (burbby) 2. 06:09 AM - Re: Re: Rivnuts (Jim Belcher) 3. 07:39 AM - Re: Re: Rivnuts (Juan Vega) 4. 01:23 PM - Polk City crash (roger lambert) 5. 02:49 PM - Left wing low syndrome (Bill Naumuk) 6. 03:13 PM - Re: Re: Rivnuts (Phil Maxson) 7. 03:50 PM - Re: Left wing low syndrome (Leo Gates) 8. 04:21 PM - Re: Polk City crash (Gary Ray) 9. 05:42 PM - Re: Polk City crash (Dave Austin) 10. 05:50 PM - Some New Stuff (George Race) 11. 05:51 PM - Heavy wing stuff (jaybannist@cs.com) 12. 06:12 PM - Re: Heavy wing stuff (purplemoon99@bellsouth.net) 13. 06:17 PM - Re: Heavy wing stuff (Paul Mulwitz) 14. 08:56 PM - Re: Heavy wing stuff (Leo Gates) 15. 09:51 PM - Re: DFW Builders get together (Ron Ellis) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:10:44 AM PST US From: burbby Subject: Re: Zenith-List: DFW Builders get together JAY I am very interested and cannot wait to meet you and other builders in the area. What can I do to help? Please keep me posted on date and times if they change... Please email me direct to burbby@yahoo.com. Thanks Gary Bassham Ch601XL (N7601)resereved Millsap, TX --- On Mon, 6/22/09, jaybannist@cs.com wrote: > From: jaybannist@cs.com > Subject: Zenith-List: DFW Builders get together > To: zenith-list@matronics.com, zenith601-list@matronics.com, corvaircraft@mylist.net > Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 7:42 PM > Attention Zenith builders and flyers in the DFW > (Texas) area. > > > > If there is enough interest, we plan to have a breakfast > meeting on July 18 at > > Hicks Airfield (T67), fly in or drive in. There are a > whole bunch of us in > > various stages of building 601s, 650s, 701s, 750s and 801s > in this area and it > > would be great for all of us to meet one another and talk > about our passions > > (and our perils). > > > > If interested, please let me know, on line or off. > > > > Thanks - Jay Bannister 601XL "Lil Bruiser" > > > > > > Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:15 AM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Rivnuts On Wednesday 24 June 2009 16:34, Gig Giacona wrote: > > I was going to use Rivnuts and got some to play with and see how they > worked. I have nut plates and no rivnuts in my plane. > I'd second this. It is possible to get rivnuts to work, but it takes a lot of practice, and a lot of rivnuts get wasted in the process. By the time one learns how to set a rivnut, enough rivnuts have been used that the nut plates would look cheap in comparison, not to mention the time involved. I don't know how many times I've had to drill out a rivnut, and do the job again. Sometimes, on certificated aircraft, there is no choice, because the manufacturer used rivnuts. It's also the only way I've found to set a fastener when the back area isn't accessable, unless one is going to use pulled rivets. I really feel most of us (including me) are better off with nut plates. ============================================ Do not archive. ============================================ Jim B Belcher BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science A&P/IA Retired aerospace technical manager ============================================ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:02 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Rivnuts DO NOT PUT LOCKTIGHT ON THEM! IF THEY GET STUCK THE RIVNUT WILL UNKATCH AND YOU HAVE TO DRILL THE ENTIRE THING OUT,or hold it with plyers from the back. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Phil Maxson >Sent: Jun 24, 2009 9:08 PM >To: "zenith-list@matronics.com " >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Rivnuts > > >>> I even used located on them. << > >Whoops! I meant LOCKTITE on them. Dang blackberry spill chicker. > >Phil Maxson >601XL/Corvair > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:23:16 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Polk City crash From: roger lambert The NTSB has updated the report. For those who haven't read it, an interesting paragraph speaks volumes. "During a telephone interview, the previous owner of the airplane stated that when flying the airplane with a single occupant in the left seat, it was normal to trim the aileron fully in a right wing down direction in order to maintain lateral balance" Those of us who have actually flown the airplane know that this is indicative of some serious misconfiguration in the construction of the airframe. The aileron trim is extremely sensitive and never requires more than minimal change off level to maintain trim. It is hard to imagine even attempring to fly the airplane with that much trim dialed in. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:49:36 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Left wing low syndrome All- The recently posted concern about use of full aileron trim resulting in a crash is to my mind invalid as a factor unique to the event. Every 601 builder I've talked to (Incuding some with projects that deserve Lindy consideration) report the same condition. No difference between XL, HDS, and HD models. The archives have enough reports of the syndrome to choke a horse. Flying builder recommendations I received were all the same- put as much weight in the right side of the plane as possible to counter the effect. Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS N601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:13:49 PM PST US From: "Phil Maxson " Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Rivnuts How about if I just remove them all from my plane? Problem solved. Phil Maxson 601XL/Corvair ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:50:07 PM PST US From: Leo Gates Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Left wing low syndrome All- From day one my HDS had the same tendency. Solo, left wing heavy. Dual, level. I did not worry about it, just trimmed with the electric trim. I thought that was what it was for. Leo Gates Bill Naumuk wrote: > All- > The recently posted concern about use of full aileron trim > resulting in a crash is to my mind invalid as a factor unique to the > event. Every 601 builder I've talked to (Incuding some with projects > that deserve Lindy consideration) report the same condition. No > difference between XL, HDS, and HD models. The archives have enough > reports of the syndrome to choke a horse. Flying builder > recommendations I received were all the same- put as much weight in > the right side of the plane as possible to counter the effect. > Bill Naumuk > Townville, Pa. > HDS N601MG/Corvair 95% > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:21:46 PM PST US From: "Gary Ray" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Polk City crash My experience is as follows: I fly the 601XL with hingeless ailerons. The amount of trim required is affected by the weight of a single pilot, whether you have had time to burn off some of the fuel in the left tank (about 4 gallons in my case), my airspeed (80-90 mph requires more trim than 120 mph) and some additional is needed to overcome the stiffness of the hingeless design. I usually have 2/3 of the trim in when at pattern speeds with equal fuel in the tanks and flying alone. This aircraft flys perfectly straight when the passenger and fuel weight is balanced. With the electric trim system, there is nothing difficult about adjusting the trim or flying the aircraft with different flight speeds and loads. In fact it is incredibly fun to maneuver when the air is dead calm and I am getting exactly the performance that I have set up. This is the best time to appreciate the smoothness of the control system. With a shorter wingspan than a 'C' brand the aileron trim will need to deflect an additional amount to compensate for the same pilot due to the shorter arm. The aircraft is nimble and a pleasure to fly. Gary Ray davgray@sbcglobal.net 601XL, WW Corvair, 0.060 over, Roy Szarafinski's 5th Bearing, Falcon Heads ----- Original Message ----- From: roger lambert To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 4:22 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Polk City crash The NTSB has updated the report. For those who haven't read it, an interesting paragraph speaks volumes. "During a telephone interview, the previous owner of the airplane stated that when flying the airplane with a single occupant in the left seat, it was normal to trim the aileron fully in a right wing down direction in order to maintain lateral balance" Those of us who have actually flown the airplane know that this is indicative of some serious misconfiguration in the construction of the airframe. The aileron trim is extremely sensitive and never requires more than minimal change off level to maintain trim. It is hard to imagine even attempring to fly the airplane with that much trim dialed in. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:33 PM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Polk City crash My 601HDS has been like that for 15 years and I haven't crashed yet.. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:50:13 PM PST US From: "George Race" Subject: Zenith-List: Some New Stuff I have added a couple of new items to my Experimental Aircraft parts list. I now have a really nice CNC cut Data Plate with a Zenith Logo. Is really cool! Also have added a line of CNC cut Fuel Drain Trim plates. Check it out at: http://www.mykitairplane.com Thanks, George ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:32 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Heavy wing stuff From: jaybannist@cs.com Guys, I think the issue is a matter of degrees.? The former owner of the Polk City airplane said that it took MAXIMUM aileron trim to keep the wings level with only one aboard.? Does any one else have to use MAX aileron trim to keep the wings level ? Jay Bannister Do not archive ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:45 PM PST US From: purplemoon99@bellsouth.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Heavy wing stuff ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:15 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Heavy wing stuff Hi Jay, The question of how much trim is needed on a given plane is all about the exact rigging of that plane. If the wings are a little bit off in their angle of incidence this would explain need for a lot of trim. I don't think this does anything to explain major accidents. I learned in my R/C flying days that a plane doesn't have to be properly put together to fly. It will go faster and "Nicer" if all is perfect, but just about anything will fly. Perhaps you have seen video of the flying lawn mower? Paul XL grounded do not archive At 05:50 PM 6/25/2009, you wrote: >Guys, > >I think the issue is a matter of degrees. The former owner of the >Polk City airplane said that it took MAXIMUM aileron trim to keep >the wings level with only one aboard. Does any one else have to use >MAX aileron trim to keep the wings level ? > >Jay Bannister >Do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:52 PM PST US From: Leo Gates Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Heavy wing stuff All- I have at times used maximum trim to level the wings. Then I burned off some fuel on the heavy side and reduced the amount of trim needed. Jay, that means it is relative. Leo Gates jaybannist@cs.com wrote: > Guys, > > I think the issue is a matter of degrees. The former owner of the > Polk City airplane said that it took MAXIMUM aileron trim to keep the > wings level with only one aboard. Does any one else have to use MAX > aileron trim to keep the wings level ? > > Jay Bannister > Do not archive > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:50 PM PST US From: Ron Ellis Subject: Zenith-List: Re: DFW Builders get together Count me in for the DFW Builders get together. Ron Haslet,TX ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.