---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 07/08/09: 44 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:22 AM - Re: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Ken Lilja) 2. 07:22 AM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Juan Vega) 3. 07:24 AM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Jim Belcher) 4. 07:39 AM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Jay Maynard) 5. 07:39 AM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Jay Maynard) 6. 08:05 AM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Gig Giacona) 7. 08:12 AM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Paul Mulwitz) 8. 08:12 AM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Gig Giacona) 9. 08:22 AM - Re: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Jim Belcher) 10. 08:22 AM - Re: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Jay Maynard) 11. 08:23 AM - Re: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Jay Maynard) 12. 08:43 AM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (ernie) 13. 09:02 AM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (T. Graziano) 14. 09:07 AM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (pavel569) 15. 10:23 AM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Paul Mulwitz) 16. 10:31 AM - Re: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Paul Mulwitz) 17. 10:54 AM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (PatrickW) 18. 11:52 AM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (annken100) 19. 12:27 PM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Juan Vega) 20. 12:54 PM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Paul Mulwitz) 21. 01:27 PM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (PatrickW) 22. 01:39 PM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Juan Vega) 23. 01:48 PM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (chris Sinfield) 24. 01:53 PM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (annken100) 25. 02:10 PM - Re: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Trainnut01@aol.com) 26. 02:10 PM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Ken Arnold) 27. 02:21 PM - CYA explanation (was: Re: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today) (Jim Belcher) 28. 02:21 PM - Re: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Davcoberly@wmconnect.com) 29. 02:46 PM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Gig Giacona) 30. 02:51 PM - Re: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (LarryMcFarland) 31. 03:12 PM - Re: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Leo Gates) 32. 03:19 PM - Re: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Jim Belcher) 33. 03:24 PM - Re: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Jim Belcher) 34. 04:17 PM - Re: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (ALAN BEYER) 35. 04:23 PM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (JohnDRead@aol.com) 36. 04:36 PM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (jonaburns) 37. 04:55 PM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (ernie) 38. 04:59 PM - Re: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Lawrence Webber) 39. 05:09 PM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Lawrence Webber) 40. 05:12 PM - Re: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Paul Mulwitz) 41. 06:12 PM - Re: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Leo Gates) 42. 06:29 PM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (skyriderekm) 43. 10:11 PM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (T. Graziano) 44. 11:39 PM - Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today (Paul Mulwitz) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:22:40 AM PST US From: Ken Lilja Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today I can live with the lower V speeds. It is the gross weight reduction that I am concerned about. I never will be light weight. I hope "temporary" will be the case. Ken Lilja ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:05 AM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today Paul, you will most likely not get your wish as mass balancing opens up an engineering can of worms. and the stick forces will not be modified as this is a little wing loaded aircraft with a wide speed envelope. I suggest you either finish the plane and sell it and get a heavy wing loaded aircraft like a Cessna or just sell the zoidac and movw on. OPtion 3 is finish your plane, and learn to fly it within its design parameters. You are issing out by not flying your plane. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Paul Mulwitz >Sent: Jul 7, 2009 8:25 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today > >First, here is a link to the new letter on Zenith's web site: >http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/c-heintz-letter-7-2009.pdf > >Now for the requested comments . . . > >I am glad to hear someone from the Zenith/Zenair community actually >suggest there is a need to do something about all the >accidents. Reduction of gross weight and airspeed limits certainly >should help with the future safety record of this design. > >I am now more hopeful I will receive "Official" design changes for >the XL that I decided to wait for before entering flight >testing. The ones I want are aileron mass balance and control system >force changes as demanded by the NTSB. > >Paul >XL grounded > > >At 04:50 PM 7/7/2009, you wrote: > >>Let's hear some comments on the new Chris Heinz Letter on lowering >>our Vne and Gross Weight among others! David Coberly 601XL Ready to >>Fly / Corvair >> > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:23 AM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today On Tuesday 07 July 2009 18:50, Davcoberly@wmconnect.com wrote: > Let's hear some comments on the new Chris Heinz Letter on lowering our Vne > and Gross Weight among others! David Coberly 601XL Ready to Fly / Corvair >From my perspective, it's very simple. The airspeed limitation is easy to do, and is an operational prodcedure. The reduction in gross weight is totally unacceptable. The original weight was marginal in its usefullness. The reduction severely limits the usefulness of the aircraft. My wife and I were going to go on our own weight reduction program, and limit the amount of baggage to fly the aircraft. Now, it simply won't carry both of us. I can't wait to explain this to her! Does this mean the original design calculations were incorrect, or that this is a CYA? -- ============================================ Do not archive. ============================================ Jim B Belcher BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science A&P/IA Retired aerospace technical manager ============================================ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:15 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 10:18:54AM -0400, Juan Vega wrote: > Paul, you will most likely not get your wish as mass balancing opens up an > engineering can of worms. and the stick forces will not be modified as > this is a little wing loaded aircraft with a wide speed envelope. I > suggest you either finish the plane and sell it and get a heavy wing > loaded aircraft like a Cessna or just sell the zoidac and movw on. OPtion > 3 is finish your plane, and learn to fly it within its design parameters. > You are issing out by not flying your plane. The answer "no" is *ALWAYS* acceptable to the question "will we fly this airplane today?". Paul obviously chooses to answer that question differently from you. It is *NEVER* acceptable to try to twist another pilot's arm to go flying if he feels it is unsafe. Period. Please stop doing it. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:15 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 09:27:06AM -0500, Jim Belcher wrote: > On Tuesday 07 July 2009 18:50, Davcoberly@wmconnect.com wrote: > > Let's hear some comments on the new Chris Heinz Letter on lowering our Vne > > and Gross Weight among others! David Coberly 601XL Ready to Fly / Corvair > From my perspective, it's very simple. The airspeed limitation is easy to do, > and is an operational prodcedure. Indeed. 140 MPH is 121.65 knots; the top of the green is 108 KIAS, and I've only had it up to 120 once in a power-on descent in absolutely smooth air. I don't think this one will affect anyone. > The reduction in gross weight is totally unacceptable. The original weight was > marginal in its usefullness. The reduction severely limits the usefulness of > the aircraft. Absolutely. Basically, I'm now restricted to solo flight. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:59 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today From: "Gig Giacona" z601(at)anemicaardvark.co wrote: > On Tuesday 07 July 2009 18:50, Davcoberly@wmconnect.com wrote: > Does this mean the original design calculations were incorrect, or that this > is a CYA? > -- The original 1320 has been flown for years by a large number of airplanes. In all of the design studies that have been done, including those by our friends at ZBAG, it has only been called it into question where the +/- 6G Ultimate load are concerned. So yes I'd have to say it is a case of CYA. Since I'm building an EXP-HB and I get to write the POH. I think an even lower manuvering speed when loaded above 1255 will have the same effect. I will, of course, do some research and finally testing during my 40 hours to back that up. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252107#252107 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:04 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today At 07:18 AM 7/8/2009, you wrote: HI Juan, I don't understand you. You have said about ten times now that I should give up my nearly life long project to build a Zodiac. Why do you keep saying that. First, I have ignored your opinion on my life's direction many times before and will continue to do so. Second, I find your suggestions offensive. You have offered to fly my plane for me - as if your manhood makes you a better pilot than me and that makes it OK to fly this death trap. What, exactly, makes you think my pilot skills are not up to flying the XL while yours are? Third, your latest nonsense that I should get a better airplane and not continue down the path of completion for my Zodiac seems the most outrageous comment you have made to date. Why do you think I could use such a plane when I have told you and the list many times that I don't have a medical and can't fly anything other than LSA? How is it that you KNOW what will not happen with regard to the XL design enhancement? Or perhaps, you just keep ignoring what I say just like I keep ignoring what you say. The simple truth is that the NTSB has DEMANDED mass balance for the ailerons and control system redesign. I am confident that will happen at some point. Perhaps it has already been done for the LAA exercise. We will learn more about those secret design changes when the LAA completes its test program. I am sure it includes mass balance for the ailerons and other design improvements, but I am not sure what other improvements. Now that Chris has admitted through his new reductions in safe flight and weight parameters for the XL that the design needs work, I am more optimistic than ever that we will get the changes that are clearly needed. So, why do you continue to tell me to go away and get a better plane? Paul XL grounded > >Paul, >you will most likely not get your wish as mass balancing opens up an >engineering can of worms. and the stick forces will not be modified >as this is a little wing loaded aircraft with a wide speed >envelope. I suggest you either finish the plane and sell it and get >a heavy wing loaded aircraft like a Cessna or just sell the zoidac >and movw on. OPtion 3 is finish your plane, and learn to fly it >within its design parameters. You are issing out by not flying your plane. > >Juan ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:04 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today From: "Gig Giacona" jmaynard wrote: > It is *NEVER* acceptable to try to twist another pilot's arm to go flying if > he feels it is unsafe. Period. Please stop doing it. Nobody is trying to twist anyones arm into flying. But if a person has decided that they are not going to fly a plane without a certain modification from the designer and there is a very good chance if not a near certainty that that the modification in question is not going to come then they need to either get rid of the plane or design the modification themselves, install it and test it. But it is probably a good idea that someone who doesn't have reading comprehension skills and has no understanding of the limits of regulatory power of the NTSB not be out flying. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252110#252110 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:22:17 AM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today On Tuesday 07 July 2009 19:48, Gig Giacona wrote: > > There are the design changes. > > VNE 140 > MGW 1255#s In reading the letter from Chris Heintz, I note several things: 1) These are recommended procedures. 2) They appear to be temporary until the real problems can be ascertained. 3) There seems to be an implicit admission there really is a problem(s). I think I see an admission that there is (are) a problems, as yet unidentified, but they do not yet know what the actual problem(s) are. They seem to be hopeful they can be identified, and that the restrictions will be lifted. Asking for reduced speed and weight reduces the overall structural requirements on the aircraft, which may very well reduce the problem(s). After all, we beef up aircraft structural design to carrry more load and go faster. Reducing the load and the speed should reduce the workload on the structure. However, I also see this as placing Chris Heintz on record in a proactive role. Since these restrictions reduce the usefullness of the aircraft substantially, I hope we see an early resolution to these issues. If not, there may well be some aviation lawyers who are the only winners in the whole issue. Meanwhile, I need to get back in my shop and continue work on my new single place aircraft. It's called a Z601XL. Ever hear of it? -- ============================================ Do not archive. ============================================ Jim B Belcher BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science A&P/IA Retired aerospace technical manager ============================================ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:20 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 08:04:39AM -0700, Gig Giacona wrote: > Since I'm building an EXP-HB and I get to write the POH. I think an even > lower manuvering speed when loaded above 1255 will have the same effect. I > will, of course, do some research and finally testing during my 40 hours > to back that up. You might want to rethink this, Gig. Maneuvering speed goes up when gross weight goes up, not down. My POH says that maneuvering speed is 90 KIAS at 1320 pounds, dropping to 84 KIAS at 1150 pounds. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:35 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 08:11:39AM -0700, Gig Giacona wrote: > jmaynard wrote: > > It is *NEVER* acceptable to try to twist another pilot's arm to go flying if > > he feels it is unsafe. Period. Please stop doing it. > Nobody is trying to twist anyones arm into flying. That's sure what Juan looks like he's doing. > But if a person has decided that they are not going to fly a plane without > a certain modification from the designer and there is a very good chance > if not a near certainty that that the modification in question is not > going to come then they need to either get rid of the plane or design the > modification themselves, install it and test it. I would agree if there wasn't just such a mod being tested in the UK right now. I believe that, when those results are in, the mod will be made available for the Zodiac community in general, and probably mandated for AMD aircraft by safety letter. > But it is probably a good idea that someone who doesn't have reading > comprehension skills and has no understanding of the limits of regulatory > power of the NTSB not be out flying. Then why is Juan still flying? Gig, that one cuts both ways. Just because the NTSB does not have regulatory power does not diminish their expertise and the force of their recommendations. I'm satisfied by the German testing that there's not a problem as long as aileron control cable tensions are properly maintained. However, when the unanimous guidance of the aeronautical engineering community is that reying on cable tension alone is insufficient, I don't consider it unreasonable to not fly until another means of flutter prevention is available. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:58 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today From: ernie ---> The simple truth is that the NTSB has DEMANDED mass balance for the ailerons The NTSB can demand that LSA rules be revised and changed. But Lucky for us they cant tell us how to build OUR planes. Demand all you want it does not mean anything On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 11:04 AM, Paul Mulwitz wrote: > > At 07:18 AM 7/8/2009, you wrote: > HI Juan, > > I don't understand you. You have said about ten times now that I should > give up my nearly life long project to build a Zodiac. Why do you keep > saying that. > > First, I have ignored your opinion on my life's direction many times before > and will continue to do so. > > Second, I find your suggestions offensive. You have offered to fly my plane > for me - as if your manhood makes you a better pilot than me and that makes > it OK to fly this death trap. What, exactly, makes you think my pilot > skills are not up to flying the XL while yours are? > > Third, your latest nonsense that I should get a better airplane and not > continue down the path of completion for my Zodiac seems the most outrageous > comment you have made to date. Why do you think I could use such a plane > when I have told you and the list many times that I don't have a medical and > can't fly anything other than LSA? > > How is it that you KNOW what will not happen with regard to the XL design > enhancement? > > Or perhaps, you just keep ignoring what I say just like I keep ignoring what > you say. > > The simple truth is that the NTSB has DEMANDED mass balance for the ailerons > and control system redesign. I am confident that will happen at some point. > Perhaps it has already been done for the LAA exercise. We will learn more > about those secret design changes when the LAA completes its test program. > I am sure it includes mass balance for the ailerons and other design > improvements, but I am not sure what other improvements. > > Now that Chris has admitted through his new reductions in safe flight and > weight parameters for the XL that the design needs work, I am more > optimistic than ever that we will get the changes that are clearly needed. > So, why do you continue to tell me to go away and get a better plane? > > Paul > XL grounded > > >> >> Paul, >> you will most likely not get your wish as mass balancing opens up an >> engineering can of worms. and the stick forces will not be modified as this >> is a little wing loaded aircraft with a wide speed envelope. I suggest you >> either finish the plane and sell it and get a heavy wing loaded aircraft >> like a Cessna or just sell the zoidac and movw on. OPtion 3 is finish your >> plane, and learn to fly it within its design parameters. You are issing out >> by not flying your plane. >> >> Juan > > Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:58 AM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today Paul, In reply to your statement: " The ones I want are aileron mass balance and control system force changes as demanded by the NTSB". Unless I am reading the NTSB report wrong, Page 11 of the NTSB report has the "Recommendations" not "Demands" that: a Ground Vibration Test be conducted and "consideration" of mass-balanced ailerons, and an "evaluation" the stick force gradient at max aft CG and notification to the pilots of the stick-force gradient that occurs at the aft cg, especially at higher G forces. Since most of us, or possibly none of us, have ever had access to or have read the forwarding letter of ZBAG to the NTSB, is it possible that ZBAG letter had the "Demands"??? Tony Graziano XL/Jab; N493TG; 509 hrs ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Mulwitz To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 7:25 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today First, here is a link to the new letter on Zenith's web site: http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/c-heintz-letter-7-2009.pdf Now for the requested comments . . . I am glad to hear someone from the Zenith/Zenair community actually suggest there is a need to do something about all the accidents. Reduction of gross weight and airspeed limits certainly should help with the future safety record of this design. I am now more hopeful I will receive "Official" design changes for the XL that I decided to wait for before entering flight testing. The ones I want are aileron mass balance and control system force changes as demanded by the NTSB. Paul XL grounded At 04:50 PM 7/7/2009, you wrote: Let's hear some comments on the new Chris Heinz Letter on lowering our Vne and Gross Weight among others! David Coberly 601XL Ready to Fly / Corvair ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:17 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today From: "pavel569" > Second, I find your suggestions offensive. You have offered to fly > my plane for me - as if your manhood makes you a better pilot than me > and that makes it OK to fly this death trap. What, exactly, makes > you think my pilot skills are not up to flying the XL while yours are? > Paul, I agree that Juan's comments are often very offensive and sometimes inappropriate but I must say that in this case, he is probably right. If I'd ever call the plane I'm building with the dream of flying it once "a death trap", the next the day it will be for sale. It means you have zero confidence in your Zodiac and mass balance or stick stiffness modes can bring it up a little but you'll still fly it with the vision on wing flying away. Where is the fun of flying, then? Nothing personal, I just don't want a fellow builder to call my plane these names unless it is true. -------- Pavel CA Zodiac XL N581PL (Reserved) Stratus Subaru EA-81 Tail, flaps, ailerons, wings done, fuselage is on the table .... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252122#252122 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:18 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today Hi Tony, First, let me say I have no knowledge of ZBAG letters or any other activities of that group. I am not a member and really don't care what they say or do. As to the language of the NTSB, I will yield to your interpretation of the exact points. My take is that they DEMANDED that the entire fleet of XLs be grounded until the safety issues are resolved. If I have overemphasized the aileron mass balance or control gradient change, then I apologize. Still, the decision I made is to ground my plane until those specific changes have been made and approved by appropriate engineers and organizations (e.g. Zenith). You might think the German tests negate the need for aileron mass balance, but I don't. That is because all the experts I have spoken to on this subject say the balance is needed whether aileron flutter can be proved to be a problem or not. This includes a number of high ranking FAA safety folks and also a number of highly experienced kitplane folks. For me to drop the need for aileron mass balance would take at least the NTSB saying it isn't needed - something I doubt I will ever see. I realize I am being very conservative on my decision point and that other people can and should make their own decisions. However, I wonder if all the people who are continuing to fly their XLs had another airplane in their hangar they would still choose to fly the XL. Besides being a safety decision it winds up being a financial decision too. Paul XL Grounded At 08:56 AM 7/8/2009, you wrote: >Page 11 of the NTSB report has the "Recommendations" not "Demands" that: > >a Ground Vibration Test be conducted and "consideration" of >mass-balanced ailerons, >and an "evaluation" the stick force gradient at max aft CG and >notification to the pilots of the stick-force gradient that occurs >at the aft cg, especially at higher G forces. > >Since most of us, or possibly none of us, have ever had access to or >have read the forwarding letter of ZBAG to the NTSB, is it possible >that ZBAG letter had the "Demands"??? > >Tony Graziano >XL/Jab; N493TG; 509 hrs ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:42 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today Hi Pavel, I agree with your point . . . in general. However, there are a couple of issues I consider important that you didn't mention. First, I have dedicated a great deal of time and money in building my XL. I would really like to finish the project by flying it and getting it through phase 1 testing. Having an unfinished project really annoys me. Second, I think the XL is generally safe, but has some nasty risks associated with it. I believe the NTSB has taken all the appropriate considerations in mind and proposed a reasonable solution that would make this a safe airplane. This is subject to further analysis by experts and might be modified in the future. Still, I think there is a "Solution" to the high risks of structural failure that have shown themselves in a relatively large number of fatal events. I am willing to wait for the issues to be resolved before flying my plane. I am not yet willing to give up on it completely. Paul XL grounded At 09:06 AM 7/8/2009, you wrote: > > > > Second, I find your suggestions offensive. You have offered to fly > > my plane for me - as if your manhood makes you a better pilot than me > > and that makes it OK to fly this death trap. What, exactly, makes > > you think my pilot skills are not up to flying the XL while yours are? > > > > >Paul, >I agree that Juan's comments are often very offensive and sometimes >inappropriate but I must say that in this case, he is probably right. >If I'd ever call the plane I'm building with the dream of flying it >once "a death trap", the next the day it will be for sale. It means >you have zero confidence in your Zodiac and mass balance or stick >stiffness modes can bring it up a little but you'll still fly it >with the vision on wing flying away. Where is the fun of flying, then? >Nothing personal, I just don't want a fellow builder to call my >plane these names unless it is true. > >-------- >Pavel >CA >Zodiac XL N581PL (Reserved) >Stratus Subaru EA-81 >Tail, flaps, ailerons, wings done, fuselage is on the table .... > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252122#252122 > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:25 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today From: "PatrickW" Gig Giacona wrote: > > > VNE 140 > MGW 1255#s Any ramifications for those who are about to begin Phase 1 testing...? - Pat -------- Patrick XL/650/Corvair N63PZ (reserved) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252144#252144 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:58 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today From: "annken100" I wish Zenith would publish more complete information. The letter from Chris is certainly a cliff-hanger. What "airplane issues" have they identified? What kind of improvements is Zenith working on? What kind of a time-table can we expect for these changes? I guess we'll have to wait until Oshkosh to find out. The recommended 1255 pound gross weight limit is problematic for me. I was planning on losing some weight, but this is ridiculous. I wonder if I can get Zenith to pay for a Weight Watchers membership? Ken Pavlou -------- 601 XL / Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252155#252155 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:06 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today Paul says- "Now that Chris has admitted through his new reductions in safe flight >and weight parameters for the XL that the design needs work, I am >more optimistic than ever that we will get the changes that are >clearly needed." Juan - dude the changes are probably negligable, mostly to apprease the few that for some reason fail to comprehend they are the manufacturers. Paul says- "So, why do you continue to tell me to go away and >get a better plane?" Juan- Paul, it is clear you are not happy, fail to understand you are the manufacturer and blame others for your plane not flying. I did not say to go get a better plane, never said that Paul, there you go again not listening/ reading. Paul says "attack on manhood" Juan says" i offered to fly your plane for you are an honest offer, dont want it, no skin off my back, I am amazed frankly how thin your skin is. Funny how Sabrina said to chear up and go fly your plane and you thought" oh how cute, she is so smart..." Juan says the same, trying to encourage you to fly the plane you built, and its " O God! the quality of my Cojones are being questioned" . too funny. The facts as they are: 601 has been test to adnausium, no issues found, but to apprease the few, Heintz will continue to study further, we need to look in the mirror, and ask our selves "is my plane flyable, did I as the builder do a good job?" The offer to fly your plane was an honest offer, not meant to threaten your skills or Cojones (thats balls in Spanish), When I built mine, even the second 601 I helped build, it was a very intimidating thing to get in it and go I wold have loved the offer from someone. The offer to help you still stands. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Paul Mulwitz >Sent: Jul 8, 2009 11:04 >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today > > >At 07:18 AM 7/8/2009, you wrote: >HI Juan, > >I don't understand you. You have said about ten times now that I >should give up my nearly life long project to build a Zodiac. Why do >you keep saying that. > >First, I have ignored your opinion on my life's direction many times >before and will continue to do so. > >Second, I find your suggestions offensive. You have offered to fly >my plane for me - as if your manhood makes you a better pilot than me >and that makes it OK to fly this death trap. What, exactly, makes >you think my pilot skills are not up to flying the XL while yours are? > >Third, your latest nonsense that I should get a better airplane and >not continue down the path of completion for my Zodiac seems the most >outrageous comment you have made to date. Why do you think I could >use such a plane when I have told you and the list many times that I >don't have a medical and can't fly anything other than LSA? > >How is it that you KNOW what will not happen with regard to the XL >design enhancement? > >Or perhaps, you just keep ignoring what I say just like I keep >ignoring what you say. > >The simple truth is that the NTSB has DEMANDED mass balance for the >ailerons and control system redesign. I am confident that will >happen at some point. Perhaps it has already been done for the LAA >exercise. We will learn more about those secret design changes when >the LAA completes its test program. I am sure it includes mass >balance for the ailerons and other design improvements, but I am not >sure what other improvements. > >Now that Chris has admitted through his new reductions in safe flight >and weight parameters for the XL that the design needs work, I am >more optimistic than ever that we will get the changes that are >clearly needed. So, why do you continue to tell me to go away and >get a better plane? > >Paul >XL grounded > > >> >>Paul, >>you will most likely not get your wish as mass balancing opens up an >>engineering can of worms. and the stick forces will not be modified >>as this is a little wing loaded aircraft with a wide speed >>envelope. I suggest you either finish the plane and sell it and get >>a heavy wing loaded aircraft like a Cessna or just sell the zoidac >>and movw on. OPtion 3 is finish your plane, and learn to fly it >>within its design parameters. You are issing out by not flying your plane. >> >>Juan > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:47 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today Hi Juan, Thank you for the offer to help. I really mean that. I truly believe you want to be helpful and not offensive. I am amazed at how firmly you want to believe in the XL design. After the designer himself has clearly admitted there are flaws that need to be fixed you claim his announcement is only to appease " . . . the few that for some reason fail to comprehend they are the manufacturers." Indeed, kit builders are only manufacturers - not designers. We paid for a finished, competent, design to build along with high quality parts and documentation of the competent design. Now that it has become apparent to nearly everyone in the world that there is a problem with the design it is up to the designer and/or design seller and kit manufacturer to deal with the problem. If you really want to help me along the path of completion of my XL then join me in asking Zenith and its partners to design and release improvements to the design. I would like to see the ones asked for by the NTSB. If you think there are other ones that have been established as being needed then ask for them too. And yes, I admit I think Sabrina is both cute and smart. I also realize she is very young and in need of considerable development before she reaches her peak. I am happy to encourage her, and even to mentor her, as much as I can. You see, she is a young person who strives to become a major league engineer. I am a retired major league engineer. What I do to encourage and possibly help her reach her goal is as much about me as it is about her. The fact that I have become aware of her and her goals because of our common activity building Zodiacs (and communicating on this email forum) is the primary reason I can help her. I would like to think I would do as much for anyone else with her talents, accomplishments, and goals. Paul XL grounded do not archive At 12:25 PM 7/8/2009, you wrote: >Juan - dude the changes are probably negligable, mostly to apprease >the few that for some reason fail to comprehend they are the manufacturers. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:27:21 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today From: "PatrickW" annken100 wrote: > The recommended 1255 pound gross weight limit is problematic for me. I was planning on losing some weight, but this is ridiculous. I have already lost 34 lbs (which more than makes up for the weight of my BRS). I'm a fairly big guy to begin with, and I don't know how realistic it is to be able to lose very much more. I guess I could ask my wife to lose some weight, but somehow I don't think that would go over very well... Patrick XL/650/Corvair/BRS 90% and getting closer every day... http://picasaweb.google.com/Patrick.hoyt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252171#252171 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:39:28 PM PST US From: Juan Vega Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today Paul said - Indeed, kit builders are only manufacturers - not designers. We paid for a finished, competent, design to build along with high quality parts and documentation of the competent design. Now that it has become apparent to nearly everyone in the world that there is a problem with the design it is up to the designer and/or design seller and kit manufacturer to deal with the problem. Juan response-" I am sorry to say but you are complete off the mark with regard to CH's responsibilty to us. We bought an experimental Kit, and as such assume all the risks. this is not legos. and there is nothing written any where that documents a problem , they have not found one, so you are asking to fix a problem that has not been found. I like the quote from the 1905 45 cal pistol "if it aint broke...." All data indicates no outstanding issues, so the designer has offered to do something to keep the Nay sayers at bay, far from agreeing there is an issue. So we we agree to disagree. Lets move on. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Paul Mulwitz >Sent: Jul 8, 2009 3:54 PM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today > > >Hi Juan, > >Thank you for the offer to help. I really mean that. I truly believe >you want to be helpful and not offensive. > >I am amazed at how firmly you want to believe in the XL >design. After the designer himself has clearly admitted there are >flaws that need to be fixed you claim his announcement is only to >appease " . . . the few that for some reason fail to comprehend they >are the manufacturers." > >Indeed, kit builders are only manufacturers - not designers. We paid >for a finished, competent, design to build along with high quality >parts and documentation of the competent design. Now that it has >become apparent to nearly everyone in the world that there is a >problem with the design it is up to the designer and/or design seller >and kit manufacturer to deal with the problem. > >If you really want to help me along the path of completion of my XL >then join me in asking Zenith and its partners to design and release >improvements to the design. I would like to see the ones asked for >by the NTSB. If you think there are other ones that have been >established as being needed then ask for them too. > >And yes, I admit I think Sabrina is both cute and smart. I also >realize she is very young and in need of considerable development >before she reaches her peak. I am happy to encourage her, and even >to mentor her, as much as I can. You see, she is a young person who >strives to become a major league engineer. I am a retired major >league engineer. What I do to encourage and possibly help her reach >her goal is as much about me as it is about her. The fact that I >have become aware of her and her goals because of our common activity >building Zodiacs (and communicating on this email forum) is the >primary reason I can help her. I would like to think I would do as >much for anyone else with her talents, accomplishments, and goals. > >Paul >XL grounded >do not archive > > >At 12:25 PM 7/8/2009, you wrote: >>Juan - dude the changes are probably negligable, mostly to apprease >>the few that for some reason fail to comprehend they are the manufacturers. > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:48:01 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today From: "chris Sinfield" Does this mean the original design calculations were incorrect, or that this is a CYA? OK what is CYA???? Chris. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252175#252175 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:51 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today From: "annken100" chris Sinfield wrote: > Does this mean the original design calculations were incorrect, or that this > is a CYA? > > > OK what is CYA???? > Chris. Great, a question I can answer confidently! CYA= Cover Your Ass The definition as obtained from Wikipedia: CYA - procedures or practices that are purely defensive against legal penalties, criticism, or other potentially punitive measures. The polite explanation of the abbreviation is "consider yourself accountable". Ken Pavlou -------- 601 XL / Corvair Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252176#252176 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:10:32 PM PST US From: Trainnut01@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today If I keep losing weight at the same rate I am now, and building my airplane at the same rate I am now, I won't weigh but twelve pounds when I'm ready to test fly. Carroll do not archive **************Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. (http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003) ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:10:57 PM PST US From: "Ken Arnold" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today Yea...........let's hear it for legos! do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Juan Vega" Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:36 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today > > Paul said - Indeed, kit builders are only manufacturers - not designers. > We paid > for a finished, competent, design to build along with high quality > parts and documentation of the competent design. Now that it has > become apparent to nearly everyone in the world that there is a > problem with the design it is up to the designer and/or design seller > and kit manufacturer to deal with the problem. > > Juan response-" I am sorry to say but you are complete off the mark with > regard to CH's responsibilty to us. We bought an experimental Kit, and as > such assume all the risks. this is not legos. and there is nothing > written any where that documents a problem , they have not found one, so > you are asking to fix a problem that has not been found. I like the quote > from the 1905 45 cal pistol "if it aint broke...." All data indicates no > outstanding issues, so the designer has offered to do something to keep > the Nay sayers at bay, far from agreeing there is an issue. > So we we agree to disagree. Lets move on. > > Juan > > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Paul Mulwitz >>Sent: Jul 8, 2009 3:54 PM >>To: zenith-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today >> >> >>Hi Juan, >> >>Thank you for the offer to help. I really mean that. I truly believe >>you want to be helpful and not offensive. >> >>I am amazed at how firmly you want to believe in the XL >>design. After the designer himself has clearly admitted there are >>flaws that need to be fixed you claim his announcement is only to >>appease " . . . the few that for some reason fail to comprehend they >>are the manufacturers." >> >>Indeed, kit builders are only manufacturers - not designers. We paid >>for a finished, competent, design to build along with high quality >>parts and documentation of the competent design. Now that it has >>become apparent to nearly everyone in the world that there is a >>problem with the design it is up to the designer and/or design seller >>and kit manufacturer to deal with the problem. >> >>If you really want to help me along the path of completion of my XL >>then join me in asking Zenith and its partners to design and release >>improvements to the design. I would like to see the ones asked for >>by the NTSB. If you think there are other ones that have been >>established as being needed then ask for them too. >> >>And yes, I admit I think Sabrina is both cute and smart. I also >>realize she is very young and in need of considerable development >>before she reaches her peak. I am happy to encourage her, and even >>to mentor her, as much as I can. You see, she is a young person who >>strives to become a major league engineer. I am a retired major >>league engineer. What I do to encourage and possibly help her reach >>her goal is as much about me as it is about her. The fact that I >>have become aware of her and her goals because of our common activity >>building Zodiacs (and communicating on this email forum) is the >>primary reason I can help her. I would like to think I would do as >>much for anyone else with her talents, accomplishments, and goals. >> >>Paul >>XL grounded >>do not archive >> >> >>At 12:25 PM 7/8/2009, you wrote: >>>Juan - dude the changes are probably negligable, mostly to apprease >>>the few that for some reason fail to comprehend they are the >>>manufacturers. >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:40 PM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: CYA explanation (was: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today) On Wednesday 08 July 2009 15:47, chris Sinfield wrote: > > > Does this mean the original design calculations were incorrect, or that > this is a CYA? > > > OK what is CYA???? > Chris. CYA is a technical term sometimes used by engineers to describe actions taken to prevent future criticism of prior actions. It could be paraphrased as meaning, "cover your posterior." :-) -- ============================================ Do not archive. ============================================ Jim B Belcher BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science A&P/IA Retired aerospace technical manager ============================================ ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:40 PM PST US From: Davcoberly@wmconnect.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today In a message dated 7/8/2009 3:48:36 PM Central Daylight Time, pwhoyt@yahoo.com writes: > I guess I could ask my wife to lose some weight, but somehow I don't > think that would go over very well... Trust me Pat I tried that and it did not go well to say the least! :) David Coberly do not archive!! ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:27 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today From: "Gig Giacona" Paul said - Indeed, kit builders are only manufacturers - not designers. We paid for a finished, competent, design to build along with high quality parts and documentation of the competent design. Now that it has become apparent to nearly everyone in the world that there is a problem with the design it is up to the designer and/or design seller and kit manufacturer to deal with the problem. No in fact if you built a Zenith you signed an agreement with these three paragraphs... 10. Custom-built aircraft are licensed by the government to fly in the applicable Experimental, Amateur-Built or Ultralight, etc. category. Each aircraft is treated legally by the governing authority (FAA) as a one-of-a-kind in design and construction, and is liable to be unpredictable, hazardous, and even potentially lethal. Therefore, construction and operation of such aircraft may be unsafe without acquiring, studying and complying to the letter of all instructions and manuals pertaining thereto. The Seller does not warrant that the aircraft as constructed by the buyer, or any other person, will be airworthy, or will qualify for certification or registration by aviation authorities, or will meet the requirement of the buyer. Notwithstanding the forgoing, seller may provide from time to time, but is not required to provide, technical assistance during the assembly, installation and construction process. However, buyer and seller specifically agree that responsibility for building the aircraft or its parts shall rest solely with the buyer and that no liability shall arise from or extend from any technical assistance provided by seller. Purchaser acknowledges that the assembly and construction of the product requires certain technical experience and skill. Further seller and purchaser specifically agree that the seller cannot and does not warrant the ability of any individual, including purchaser, to properly assemble, construct and maintain an aircraft kit of the kind sold by seller. In exchange for such technical assistance, purchaser and seller specifically agree that purchaser shall hold harmless seller from any and all liability which may arise from any technical advice provided by seller, sellers employee, or sellers agent. 11. EXCLUSIONS OF WARRANTIES, NO WARRANTIES. THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND ALL OTHER WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, ARE EXCLUDED FROM THIS TRANSACTION AND SHALL NOT APPLY TO THE GOODS SOLD, THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE GOODS, THE PLANS & MANUALS, THE GOODS WORKMANSHIP, THE SAFETY OF THE GOODS DESIGN OR ANY OF THE GOODS COMPONENTS. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252183#252183 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:13 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today Patience guys, The work that Chris Heintz is doing right now is not one of identifying a fault in the design, but finding a weakest link(s) or area of the design that can be improved. The complexity of the design lends itself to a few percentages of failure that could be attributed to construction, flying history, loading and all of these contribute to a method of determining specific improvements to the design. It will be solved, but perhaps without a formal declaration of exactitude. They are doing the right thing by examining everything as closely as possible to find what is either a multi-mode problem or a single point of failure and cause. Do fly safe, Larry McFarland 601HDS Stratus Subaru with 137 hours at www.macsmachine.com annken100 wrote: > > I wish Zenith would publish more complete information. The letter from Chris is certainly a cliff-hanger. What "airplane issues" have they identified? What kind of improvements is Zenith working on? What kind of a time-table can we expect for these changes? I guess we'll have to wait until Oshkosh to find out. > > The recommended 1255 pound gross weight limit is problematic for me. I was planning on losing some weight, but this is ridiculous. I wonder if I can get Zenith to pay for a Weight Watchers membership? > > > Ken Pavlou > > -------- > 601 XL / Corvair > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:12:19 PM PST US From: Leo Gates Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today All- I just gotta weigh in. My HDS at 1200 lbs GTW is somewhat below the new proposed XL limit of 1255 lbs. I do have a question. Chris, in his letter says, "Reduce aircraft gross weight to 1255 pounds (i.e. no baggage)." What does that mean? GTW equals 1255 pounds PLUS baggage? Back to my HDS. At 674 pounds empty I can add 20 gallons of fuel (120 lbs), myself (165 lbs), my wife (175 lbs) and 66 pounds of baggage. I intend to fly only 3 hour legs max. as my wife and I only have three hour bladders so remove one hour of fuel (4 gal or 24 lbs) from the five I have and I can carry 90 lbs of baggage, cruise at 125 MPH and it is light sport qualified. Am I happy with my choice? You betcha! Do not archive. Leo Gates N601Z chris Sinfield wrote: > > Does this mean the original design calculations were incorrect, or that this > is a CYA? > > > OK what is CYA???? > Chris. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252175#252175 > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:37 PM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today On Wednesday 08 July 2009 16:45, LarryMcFarland wrote: > > Patience guys, > > The work that Chris Heintz is doing right now is not one of identifying > a fault in the design, but finding a weakest link(s) or area of the > design that can be improved. The complexity of the design lends itself > to a few percentages of failure that could be attributed to > construction, flying history, loading and all of these contribute to a > method of determining specific improvements to the design. It will be > solved, but perhaps without a formal declaration of exactitude. They are > doing the right thing by examining everything as closely as possible to > find what is either a multi-mode problem or a single point of failure > and cause. ....but we want our answers now, even if they're wrong. :-) ============================================ Do not archive. ============================================ Jim B Belcher BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science A&P/IA Retired aerospace technical manager ============================================ ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:24:11 PM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today On Wednesday 08 July 2009 17:02, Leo Gates wrote: > > All- I just gotta weigh in. My HDS at 1200 lbs GTW is somewhat below > the new proposed XL limit of 1255 lbs. I do have a question. Chris, in > his letter says, "Reduce aircraft gross weight to 1255 pounds (i.e. no > baggage)." What does that mean? GTW equals 1255 pounds PLUS baggage? I suspect, but do not know, that he means the weight limitation effectively eliminates the possibility of baggage if two people are on board. > Back to my HDS. At 674 pounds empty I can add 20 gallons of fuel (120 > lbs), myself (165 lbs), my wife (175 lbs) and 66 pounds of baggage. I > intend to fly only 3 hour legs max. as my wife and I only have three > hour bladders so remove one hour of fuel (4 gal or 24 lbs) from the five > I have and I can carry 90 lbs of baggage, cruise at 125 MPH and it is > light sport qualified. I looked hard at the HDS, but (in part) rejected it because of the limited fuel. It's a personal choice: I tend to do a lot of cross countries. I climb high, reduce the power, trim out, and stay there for 4 1/2 to 5 hours. I also rejected an Ercoupe because of the limited load carrying capabilty. Just now it looks like that might have been the better choice. Time will tell. -- ============================================ Do not archive. ============================================ Jim B Belcher BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science A&P/IA Retired aerospace technical manager ============================================ ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 04:17:01 PM PST US From: ALAN BEYER Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today Hi Jim,=0A=0AHow much fuel do you want to carry?- I have an HDS and can c arry 29 Gal. of usable fuel.- I have flown from Oshkosh to SnF and have b een out west a couple of times. I have also flown 4 1/2 Hour legs.-On my normal cross country flights I will burn off the wing tanks (21 Gal.) and t hen land with 8 Gal. left in the header tank.=0A=0AAl From Oshkosh- =0A =0A=0A(Jim said)=0A"I looked hard at the HDS, but (in part) rejected it bec ause of the limited =0Afuel. It's a personal choice: I tend to do a lot of cross countries. I climb =0Ahigh, reduce the power, trim out, and stay ther e for 4 1/2 to 5 hours". ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 04:23:58 PM PST US From: JohnDRead@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today I still think that you should all design, build and fly your own aircraft and get off your high horses with opinion and inuendo regarding the Zenith designs. John Read CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300 Phone: 303-648-3261 Fax: 303-648-3262 Cell: 719-494-4567 In a message dated 7/8/2009 1:27:43 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, amyvega2005@earthlink.net writes: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega Paul says- "Now that Chris has admitted through his new reductions in safe flight >and weight parameters for the XL that the design needs work, I am >more optimistic than ever that we will get the changes that are >clearly needed." Juan - dude the changes are probably negligable, mostly to apprease the few that for some reason fail to comprehend they are the manufacturers. Paul says- "So, why do you continue to tell me to go away and >get a better plane?" Juan- Paul, it is clear you are not happy, fail to understand you are the manufacturer and blame others for your plane not flying. I did not say to go get a better plane, never said that Paul, there you go again not listening/ reading. Paul says "attack on manhood" Juan says" i offered to fly your plane for you are an honest offer, dont want it, no skin off my back, I am amazed frankly how thin your skin is. Funny how Sabrina said to chear up and go fly your plane and you thought" oh how cute, she is so smart..." Juan says the same, trying to encourage you to fly the plane you built, and its " O God! the quality of my Cojones are being questioned" . too funny. The facts as they are: 601 has been test to adnausium, no issues found, but to apprease the few, Heintz will continue to study further, we need to look in the mirror, and ask our selves "is my plane flyable, did I as the builder do a good job?" The offer to fly your plane was an honest offer, not meant to threaten your skills or Cojones (thats balls in Spanish), When I built mine, even the second 601 I helped build, it was a very intimidating thing to get in it and go I wold have loved the offer from someone. The offer to help you still stands. Juan -----Original Message----- >From: Paul Mulwitz >Sent: Jul 8, 2009 11:04 >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz > >At 07:18 AM 7/8/2009, you wrote: >HI Juan, > >I don't understand you. You have said about ten times now that I >should give up my nearly life long project to build a Zodiac. Why do >you keep saying that. > >First, I have ignored your opinion on my life's direction many times >before and will continue to do so. > >Second, I find your suggestions offensive. You have offered to fly >my plane for me - as if your manhood makes you a better pilot than me >and that makes it OK to fly this death trap. What, exactly, makes >you think my pilot skills are not up to flying the XL while yours are? > >Third, your latest nonsense that I should get a better airplane and >not continue down the path of completion for my Zodiac seems the most >outrageous comment you have made to date. Why do you think I could >use such a plane when I have told you and the list many times that I >don't have a medical and can't fly anything other than LSA? > >How is it that you KNOW what will not happen with regard to the XL >design enhancement? > >Or perhaps, you just keep ignoring what I say just like I keep >ignoring what you say. > >The simple truth is that the NTSB has DEMANDED mass balance for the >ailerons and control system redesign. I am confident that will >happen at some point. Perhaps it has already been done for the LAA >exercise. We will learn more about those secret design changes when >the LAA completes its test program. I am sure it includes mass >balance for the ailerons and other design improvements, but I am not >sure what other improvements. > >Now that Chris has admitted through his new reductions in safe flight >and weight parameters for the XL that the design needs work, I am >more optimistic than ever that we will get the changes that are >clearly needed. So, why do you continue to tell me to go away and >get a better plane? > >Paul >XL grounded > > >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega >> >>Paul, >>you will most likely not get your wish as mass balancing opens up an >>engineering can of worms. and the stick forces will not be modified >>as this is a little wing loaded aircraft with a wide speed >>envelope. I suggest you either finish the plane and sell it and get >>a heavy wing loaded aircraft like a Cessna or just sell the zoidac >>and movw on. OPtion 3 is finish your plane, and learn to fly it >>within its design parameters. You are issing out by not flying your plane. >> >>Juan > > **************Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. (http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000003) ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:38 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today From: "jonaburns" Paul Said: ..Second, I find your suggestions offensive. You have offered to fly ..my plane for me - as if your manhood makes you a better pilot than me ..and that makes it OK to fly this death trap. What, exactly, makes ..you think my pilot skills are not up to flying the XL while yours are? One answer may be WHY you don't have a Medical. Why didn't you put as much effort and research into picking the plane you were going build as you have in trying to convince as many people as possible that the 601XL is, in your mind, a "Death Trap?" When I hear comments by a couple of people all that I can think of is Chicken Little and the Boy that Cried Wolf. Your credibility is shot and the more you say, the farther you get from kosher. Even if Zenith does find an issue, you will find something else to complain about because it won't fall within your alternate reality. Most of us won't forget that this all started out because some said the issue HAS TO BE flutter. We know where that went. While I do sympathize with our European colleagues that are legally prohibited from flying, but I am so tired of hearing words like "DEMAND" and "GROUNDED" thrown around when all they really are is exaggerated cries for attention. Jon Burns Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252196#252196 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:55:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today From: ernie Ya, Thanks Roger for coming over and helping me BUILD today! 1.5 more hours in the build LOG!! E. 1.5 h closer to FLYING !!! Do not archive On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 7:22 PM, wrote: > I still think that you should all design, build and fly your own aircraft > and get off your high horses with opinion and inuendo regarding the Zenith > designs. > > John Read > CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300 > > Phone: 303-648-3261 > Fax: 303-648-3262 > Cell: 719-494-4567 > > In a message dated 7/8/2009 1:27:43 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > amyvega2005@earthlink.net writes: > > > Paul says- "Now that Chris has admitted through his new reductions in safe > flight >>and weight parameters for the XL that the design needs work, I am >>more optimistic than ever that we will get the changes that are >>clearly needed." > > Juan - dude the changes are probably negligable, mostly to apprease the few > that for some reason fail to comprehend they are the manufacturers. > > Paul says- "So, why do you continue to tell me to go away and >>get a better plane?" > > Juan- Paul, it is clear you are not happy, fail to understand you are the > manufacturer and blame others for your plane not flying. I did not say to go > get a better plane, never said that Paul, there you go again not listening/ > reading. > > Paul says "attack on manhood" > Juan says" i offered to fly your plane for you are an honest offer, dont > want it, no skin off my back, I am amazed frankly how thin your skin is. > Funny how Sabrina said to chear up and go fly your plane and you thought" oh > how cute, she is so smart..." Juan says the same, trying to encourage you to > fly the plane you built, and its " O God! the quality of my Cojones are > being questioned" . too funny. > > The facts as they are: > 601 has been test to adnausium, no issues found, but to apprease the few, > Heintz will continue to study further, > we need to look in the mirror, and ask our selves "is my plane flyable, did > I as the builder do a good job?" > > The offer to fly your plane was an honest offer, not meant to threaten your > skills or Cojones (thats balls in Spanish), > When I built mine, even the second 601 I helped build, it was a very > intimidating thing to get in it and go I wold have loved the offer from > someone. > > The offer to help you still stands. > > Juan > > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Paul Mulwitz >>Sent: Jul 8, 2009 11:04 >>To: zenith-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today >> >> >>At 07:18 AM 7/8/2009, you wrote: >>HI Juan, >> >>I don't understand you. You have said about ten times now that I >>should give up my nearly life long project to build a Zodiac. Why do >>you keep saying that. >> >>First, I have ignored your opinion on my life's direction many times >>before and will continue to do so. >> >>Second, I find your suggestions offensive. You have offered to fly >>my plane for me - as if your manhood makes you a better pilot than me >>and that makes it OK to fly this death trap. What, exactly, makes >>you think my pilot skills are not up to flying the XL while yours are? >> >>Third, your latest nonsense that I should get a better airplane and >>not continue down the path of completion for my Zodiac seems the most >>outrageous comment you have made to date. Why do you think I could >>use such a plane when I have told you and the list many times that I >>don't have a medical and can't fly anything other than LSA? >> >>How is it that you KNOW what will not happen with regard to the XL >>design enhancement? >> >>Or perhaps, you just keep ignoring what I say just like I keep >>ignoring what you say. >> >>The simple truth is that the NTSB has DEMANDED mass balance for the >>ailerons and control system redesign. I am confident that will >>happen at some point. Perhaps it has already been done for the LAA >>exercise. We will learn more about those secret design changes when >>the LAA completes its test program. I am sure it includes mass >>balance for the ailerons and other design improvements, but I am not >>sure what other improvements. >> >>Now that Chris has admitted through his new reductions in safe flight >>and weight parameters for the XL that the design needs work, I am >>more optimistic than ever that we will get the changes that are >>clearly needed. So, why do you continue to tell me to go away and >>get a better plane? >> >>Paul >>XL grounded >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>>Paul, >>>you will most likely not get your wish as mass balancing opens up an >>>engineering can of worms. and the stick forces will not be modified >>>as this is a little wing loaded aircraft with a wide speed >>>envelope. I suggest you either finish the plane and sell it and get >>>a heavy wing loaded aircraft like a Cessna or just sell the zoidac >>>and movw on. OPtion 3 is finish your plane, and learn to fly it >>>within its design parameters. You are issing out by not flying your >>> plane. >>> >>>Juan >> >> >> >> > &g========================; the ties Day > ================================================ - MATRONICS > WEB FORUMS ================================================ - > List Contribution Web Site sp; > ================================================== > > > ________________________________ > Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:59:43 PM PST US From: Lawrence Webber Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today Hey Paul Dullwits why dont you change your sign off to read SELF-IMPOSED gr ounding i think the list should take a poll to send you to the sidelines al l your rhetoric boils down to the point that you feel screwed and dont have the manhood marbles to fly your finished AC im getting sick and tired of h aving to wade through your postings. like juan i would fly your aircraft fo r you once i deemed Your workmanship is of good quality LarryWebber 601xl/corvair chugger > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today > From: lsapilot@HOTMAIL.COM > Date: Wed=2C 8 Jul 2009 16:35:34 -0700 > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > > > Paul Said: > > ..Second=2C I find your suggestions offensive. You have offered to fly > ..my plane for me - as if your manhood makes you a better pilot than me > ..and that makes it OK to fly this death trap. What=2C exactly=2C makes > ..you think my pilot skills are not up to flying the XL while yours are? > > > One answer may be WHY you don't have a Medical. > > Why didn't you put as much effort and research into picking the plane you were going build as you have in trying to convince as many people as possi ble that the 601XL is=2C in your mind=2C a "Death Trap?" > > When I hear comments by a couple of people all that I can think of is Chi cken Little and the Boy that Cried Wolf. Your credibility is shot and the m ore you say=2C the farther you get from kosher. Even if Zenith does find an issue=2C you will find something else to complain about because it won't f all within your alternate reality. Most of us won't forget that this all st arted out because some said the issue HAS TO BE flutter. We know where that went. > > While I do sympathize with our European colleagues that are legally prohi bited from flying=2C but I am so tired of hearing words like "DEMAND" and " GROUNDED" thrown around when all they really are is exaggerated cries for a ttention. > > > Jon Burns > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252196#252196 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that=92s right for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 05:09:17 PM PST US From: Lawrence Webber Subject: RE: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today paul once again mass balance was not DEMANDED by ntsb but thats how your en gineers brain read it once again RECOMMENDED is not the same as DEMANDED LarryWebber/601xl/corvair chugger From: psm@att.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today First=2C here is a link to the new letter on Zenith's web site: http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/c-heintz-letter-7-2009.pdf Now for the requested comments . . . I am glad to hear someone from the Zenith/Zenair community actually suggest there is a need to do something about all the accidents. Reduction of gro ss weight and airspeed limits certainly should help with the future safety record of this design. I am now more hopeful I will receive "Official" design changes for the XL t hat I decided to wait for before entering flight testing. The ones I want are aileron mass balance and control system force changes as demanded by th e NTSB. Paul XL grounded At 04:50 PM 7/7/2009=2C you wrote: Let's hear some comments on the new Chris Heinz Letter on lowering our Vne and Gross Weight among others! David Coberly 601XL Ready to Fly / Corvair _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99 SkyDrive=99: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:56 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today Dear Jon, Thank you for your sophomoric psychological analysis of my motives and goals. Of course you are wrong on every point. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am trying to get Zenith to design and release changes to the Zodiac XL to meet the statements made by the NTSB. You can argue all you want over my choice of words, but that has always been my goal - at least since the NTSB letter was issued. Now to correct some of your wrong guesses. I did indeed research the safety of the XL before embarking on my project to build one. I checked every source I could find including the experts at the EAA. All the information available then (indeed all the information there was then) suggested this was a very safe and good design. The in-flight failures started some 2 years later. I didn't take any action or try to convince anyone of anything for a couple of years after the first breakup. Indeed, I didn't know what to conclude since all the information that was available was inconsistent and generally worthless. One of the worst days of my life was the day the NTSB report on the first crash was released. After waiting about a year for the full investigation we all learned that the wings came off for unknown reasons. Another year passed and a few more structural failures occurred. Then the authorities in the Netherlands grounded the XLs in that country. Instead of explaining themselves, the guy responsible for the decision immediately went on extended vacation. Again I said nothing. That was followed by the Germans and British grounding the XLs in their countries. Again I said nothing. By this time there had been something between 5 and 10 unexplained in-flight structure failures on XLs around the world. Of course I was concerned about this rash of unexplained disasters. Still, I had no facts to suggest any explanation for all these deaths. So I still said nothing. Finally, when I was about to get my plane inspected and start flight testing, the NTSB came out with their (nearly?) unprecedented ruling - that all planes in this family should be immediately grounded. I believe this was an academic issue for most people. They were either building along and not really too concerned about the NTSB ruling or they had been flying their planes for a while - many for years - and had plenty of personal confidence in their planes. For me it was a really important event since I was facing my first flight at that time. I had to consider what to do about the ruling with impact in my behavior within a few days. I made my decision and did the best I could to get resolution to the problem. I never suggested anyone else should make the same decision as mine and I never tried to convince anybody that there is a problem with the XL. I merely kept the pressure up on the Heintz folks (particularly Mathieu) by staying active on this list and continuing to report the status of my plane - grounded. If you think that amounts to alternate reality, then I suggest you quit making stupid amateur psychological pronouncements on strangers and seek some real medical advice on your own sense of reality. Paul XL grounded do not archive P.S. My medical status is none of your business. At 04:35 PM 7/8/2009, you wrote: >Paul Said: > >..Second, I find your suggestions offensive. You have offered to fly >..my plane for me - as if your manhood makes you a better pilot than me >..and that makes it OK to fly this death trap. What, exactly, makes >..you think my pilot skills are not up to flying the XL while yours are? > > >One answer may be WHY you don't have a Medical. > >Why didn't you put as much effort and research into picking the >plane you were going build as you have in trying to convince as many >people as possible that the 601XL is, in your mind, a "Death Trap?" > >When I hear comments by a couple of people all that I can think of >is Chicken Little and the Boy that Cried Wolf. Your credibility is >shot and the more you say, the farther you get from kosher. Even if >Zenith does find an issue, you will find something else to complain >about because it won't fall within your alternate reality. Most of >us won't forget that this all started out because some said the >issue HAS TO BE flutter. We know where that went. > >While I do sympathize with our European colleagues that are legally >prohibited from flying, but I am so tired of hearing words like >"DEMAND" and "GROUNDED" thrown around when all they really are is >exaggerated cries for attention. > > >Jon Burns ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:19 PM PST US From: Leo Gates Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today Jim Belcher wrote: > > > > I looked hard at the HDS, but (in part) rejected it because of the limited > fuel. It's a personal choice: I tend to do a lot of cross countries. I climb > high, reduce the power, trim out, and stay there for 4 1/2 to 5 hours. > > > My wing tanks hold 21 gal, 20 gal usable fuel (5 hours). I could have added two 7.5 gal wing locker tanks (3 hours and 45 min.) and an 8 gal (2 hour) fuselage tank for 10 hrs 45 min fuel. That is 44 gal of fuel or 264 lbs. 674 lbs empty airplane, plus 264 lbs fuel, plus 165 lbs (me), plus 99 lb baggage equals 1200 lbs GTW. 3 or 4 potty stops before I would have to add fuel. OR carry a portable human factors relief device and fly 10 hours and get darn hungry. Leo Gates N601Z ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 06:29:42 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Chris Heinz Letter Today From: "skyriderekm" I'm sure glad I haven't been reading all of this mess. I got caught up in there for awhile, but I've since made the conscious decision to STOP reading as much on this website. I'm now spending all my free time BUILDING in stead of worrying about something that might not ever happen. I realized too I have NO CONTROL what the NTSB and FAA are up to. If they put out a mandatory AD, I will adhere to it and do whatever it says I need to do. If and when I get to the point of the starting the flying part in first stage, I will cross that bridge when I get there. I'm contemplating installing a BRS, but nothing is cast in stone there yet either. I'm takiing a "wait and see" attitude on this one. Of course, all of this is MY CHOICE and no one has coerced me into anything. Each and everyone one of you are making your choices. Each of you are right in your own way and NEITHER should be trying to convince the other they are right. There is no solid "right" OR "wrong" here. It is was it is. A choice. Paul has made his choice. Juan has made his. Now if I may make a suggestion: put your testosterone back up on the shelf and DO SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE instead of picking, picking, and bickering!! Enough said here. Its time for me to step off my soapbox and let you "gentlemen" to ponder what I said. As for me, my air compressor is ready and I am OUTTA HERE! Tailwinds, Larry Hursh PS - don't bother responding back to me - I'm too busy building. :D Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252225#252225 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:14 PM PST US From: "T. Graziano" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today Paul, Ref page 11 of the NTSB report "------ the National Transportation Safety Board recommends that the Federal Aviation Aviation Administration: Prohibit further flight on the Zodiac CH-601XL, both special light sport aircraft and experimental, until such time that the Federal Aviation Administration determines that the CH-601XL has adequate protection from flutter. (A-09-30" (underling and bold mine) The above in my opinion as a retired aerospace engineer, and my Phase I flight tests, and the Zenith Flight tests and the results of the Modal surveys (Ground Vibration Tests - GVT) is that the recommendation by the NTSB to determine that the XL has adequate protection from flutter has been, in my lowly opinion, satisfied. Of course this assumes that the aileron control cables are not slack, for the reported real flutter was a result of slack cables - the flutter stopped once the IAS was lowered and did not repeat with proper cable tension, which per the GVT tests should be at a minimum of 10 pounds - much less than the Zenith spec value. The XL does though, like most all light aircraft, have a wing removal device called a "stick". I personally like the light stick forces of the XL, but as Mr. Henitz in his letter stated "Remember that, as with any light aircraft, if you encounter unexpected turbulence while cruising, ride it out rather than fight it - and slow down!" Tony ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Mulwitz To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 12:22 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today Hi Tony, First, let me say I have no knowledge of ZBAG letters or any other activities of that group. I am not a member and really don't care what they say or do. As to the language of the NTSB, I will yield to your interpretation of the exact points. My take is that they DEMANDED that the entire fleet of XLs be grounded until the safety issues are resolved. If I have overemphasized the aileron mass balance or control gradient change, then I apologize. Still, the decision I made is to ground my plane until those specific changes have been made and approved by appropriate engineers and organizations (e.g. Zenith). You might think the German tests negate the need for aileron mass balance, but I don't. That is because all the experts I have spoken to on this subject say the balance is needed whether aileron flutter can be proved to be a problem or not. This includes a number of high ranking FAA safety folks and also a number of highly experienced kitplane folks. For me to drop the need for aileron mass balance would take at least the NTSB saying it isn't needed - something I doubt I will ever see. I realize I am being very conservative on my decision point and that other people can and should make their own decisions. However, I wonder if all the people who are continuing to fly their XLs had another airplane in their hangar they would still choose to fly the XL. Besides being a safety decision it winds up being a financial decision too. Paul XL Grounded At 08:56 AM 7/8/2009, you wrote: Page 11 of the NTSB report has the "Recommendations" not "Demands" that: a Ground Vibration Test be conducted and "consideration" of mass-balanced ailerons, and an "evaluation" the stick force gradient at max aft CG and notification to the pilots of the stick-force gradient that occurs at the aft cg, especially at higher G forces. Since most of us, or possibly none of us, have ever had access to or have read the forwarding letter of ZBAG to the NTSB, is it possible that ZBAG letter had the "Demands"??? Tony Graziano XL/Jab; N493TG; 509 hrs ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:15 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Chris Heinz Letter Today Hi Tony, First let me say your qualifications to understand the technical details of this issue are a lot better than mine. I believe you are convinced that flutter is not an issue for the XL based on the German test report. However, you are not the FAA. I don't believe they will determine that the XL has adequate protection from flutter no matter what any engineering reports say. I learned when I discussed this issue with them at Sun n Fun that they already believe the XL needs balanced ailerons and that nothing will change their minds on that point. Indeed, I believe the NTSB has the same opinion (but I have no personal proof of that position). By talking to lots of FAA and industry folks who have been around for a long time I learned there is a belief that balanced ailerons are needed by all planes of this sort. History has shown that to be true in many different designs, and these guys are convinced that the XL is no exception to this rule. The other news from those discussions is that the FAA will not take any action to prevent E-AB owners from flying their planes. They just don't care about experimental planes in that sort of way. They do care about factory built planes, but even those are safe from FAA rule making for at least a year. It takes them that long (and longer) to issue an NPRM and get to the final rule. That is the process they will use to issue a mandatory AD if they choose to go in that direction. It is my hope that the whole problem will go away without actual rules from the FAA. All it takes is a group of design changes from Zenith/Zenair with some sort of mandatory implementation from AMD for S-LSA XLs. Then the FAA won't need to take any regulatory action. For E-AB it is all up to the owner to decide what to do with their plane. Paul XL grounded At 09:59 PM 7/8/2009, you wrote: >"------ the National Transportation Safety Board recommends that the >Federal Aviation Aviation Administration: > > Prohibit further flight on the Zodiac CH-601XL, both > special light sport aircraft > and experimental, until such time that the Federal > Aviation Administration determines that the CH-601XL has > adequate protection from flutter. (A-09-30" (underling > and bold mine) > >The above in my opinion as a retired aerospace engineer, and my >Phase I flight tests, and the Zenith Flight tests and the results of >the Modal surveys (Ground Vibration Tests - GVT) is that the >recommendation by the NTSB to determine that the XL has adequate >protection from flutter has been, in my lowly opinion, >satisfied. Of course this assumes that the aileron control cables >are not slack, for the reported real flutter was a result of slack >cables - the flutter stopped once the IAS was lowered and did not >repeat with proper cable tension, which per the GVT tests should be >at a minimum of 10 pounds - much less than the Zenith spec value. > >The XL does though, like most all light aircraft, have a wing >removal device called a "stick". I personally like the light stick >forces of the XL, but as Mr. Henitz in his letter stated "Remember >that, as with any light aircraft, if you encounter unexpected >turbulence while cruising, ride it out rather than fight it - and slow down!" > >Tony > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.